F2000 vs. MP5 for CQB

[MrGoodKat]

Which do you think would be better for clearing rooms? The FN F2000 or the MP5? I know the capabilities are different, so I would like to compare the maneuverability, pointability, and rapid-fire characteristics.

I am reading "Inside Delta Force" which, btw, is an absolutely amazing book and I recomend it to all. Anyway, they describe their room clearance in depth, and I was wondering which would be better for storming a room spec-ops style, the F2000 or MP5?

Thanks so much!

[LaoSexMachine]

One's 5.56 and the other 9mm. Both can be attached with lights or any doohicky. One is lighter then the other.

[MrGoodKat]

I know about the guns individually. I meant, which do you think is superior for this specific task.

Sorry if that wasn't clear.

[LaoSexMachine]

Superior? the MP5 have seen more action and the F2000 is fairly knew and I don't know if they been fielded yet. For CQB you want something small and light.IMO

[stuntman]

f2000 is to bulky and the round is to powerful.

[KillerBD]

I would like to have the power of a F2000, but with the size and weight of an mp5. That would be nice for CQB.

[LaoSexMachine]

I would like to have the power of a F2000, but with the size and weight of an mp5. That would be nice for CQB.

It's called an SBR.

[KillerBD]

It's called an SBR.

Yea I know, I was just saying. :)

[sekiryuu]

Neither. P90 :D

http://www.fivesevenforum.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=30

All info regarding the F2000. Technically FS2000...but w/e.

[MrGoodKat]

Well isnt the F2000 superior to SBR 5.56 rifle fore most pruposes? The 5.56 rounds are more likely to fragment violently from the extra velocity, and thus less likely to over penetrate. Also, the bullpup configuration makes it balance better for maneuvering in tight spaces. So wouldnt the F2000 be the best of both worlds? 5.56 power in a compact package?

[James]

I am reading "Inside Delta Force" which, btw, is an absolutely amazing book and I recomend it to all.

Thanks so much!

Take it with a grain of salt. The author is scorned by many veterans. Some have even called him a liar.

[MrGoodKat]

James-

I had not heard that before. I just picked the book up at the library and started reading. Could you elaborate?

Thanks!

[James]

James-

I had not heard that before. I just picked the book up at the library and started reading. Could you elaborate?

Thanks!

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=78136&highlight=Eric+Haney

[MrGoodKat]

Thanks James. BTW, would you take an MP5 or F2000 for taking a room?

Thanks again. Your posts are always insightful.

[Icarus1]

I would take MP5, the F2000 looks pretty bulky to me. Also the calibre may be to strong and penetrate to much walls. But I speak of CQB in civil circumstances. In wartime, I would prefer an assaul trifle to enter a room... collateral damage is in wartimes not that important as it is in the middle of a city full of civilians.

[Chris]

both are shooting, and if you handle it correct, its even possible to kill someone. The rest is training

[Chops]

Thanks James. BTW, would you take an MP5 or F2000 for taking a room?


I'd take a Milan...

p-)

[James]

I'd take a Milan...

p-)

I was going to say Mr. 40mm, but a Milan should be effective. Hehe

[Hydro]

I would like to have the power of a F2000, but with the size and weight of an mp5. That would be nice for CQB.


HK53.



123456...etc

[Chops]

I was going to say Mr. 40mm, but a Milan should be effective. Hehe

If we take a Milan, Argyll can clean it for us afterward. p-)

[MEGR]

I've had experience with both firearms and I can tell you, without a doubt, that the MP5 is much more suited for so-called CQB. I mean, there's no comparison. The FN2000 is too bulky, and the one I used had poor iron sights. I'm pretty sure it wasn't designed for extensive close-quarter's work anyways.

[SMGLee]

It is a mistake to consider the 5.56 as "TOO STRONG" or too powerful for CQB operation. with the right ammo, the 5.56 are actually much better round then the 9mm.

5.56 will tumble and fragment within the human body and it will not over penetrate the length of the torso. 5.56 will also defeat soft armor.

if strictly issued for CQB, I found no faluts to the F2000, although it seem bulky, but it does handle well within the CQB enviroment. with the ejected brass pushed forward of the shooter, it can transition from stron to support side shooting much like a conventiional rifle.

with the longer barrel, you also lengthen your fragmentation distance, which is very important when it comes to 5.56. once the bullet stablize, then it becomes a penetrater or much less effective on human.

I would go for a 10.5inch barrel gas piston, suppressed M4 style rifle shooting 6.8 or at least a good 77gr. SMK in 5.56.

[Meldon]

the bullpup (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bullpup) configuration makes the 2000 less maniable in close combat than the mp5.

[ZoneOne]

I'd take either one. Having shot the mp5 extensively I might be a little biased. However, I spent a nice amount of time w/ a f2000 with an eotech on it. That thing is a pretty nice rifle. I'm a relatively small guy and I didn't really consider it "bulky" like a lot of people claim. It feels nice in my hands. However, having used the mp5 more, I would feel more comfortable w/ it. Strictly CQB, lets say for a specific op, I'd go mp5. F2000 would be more suited as a transition rifle between open distances and close quaters.

[11B101ABN]

It is a mistake to consider the 5.56 as "TOO STRONG" or too powerful for CQB operation. with the right ammo, the 5.56 are actually much better round then the 9mm.

5.56 will tumble and fragment within the human body and it will not over penetrate the length of the torso. 5.56 will also defeat soft armor.

if strictly issued for CQB, I found no faluts to the F2000, although it seem bulky, but it does handle well within the CQB enviroment. with the ejected brass pushed forward of the shooter, it can transition from stron to support side shooting much like a conventiional rifle.

with the longer barrel, you also lengthen your fragmentation distance, which is very important when it comes to 5.56. once the bullet stablize, then it becomes a penetrater or much less effective on human.

I would go for a 10.5inch barrel gas piston, suppressed M4 style rifle shooting 6.8 or at least a good 77gr. SMK in 5.56.


Goddamn it, you beat me to it.

To reiterate: the weapon itself has no inherant power. What will make the difference is the operator and ammo selection.

[Apogee]

I was going to say Mr. 40mm, but a Milan should be effective. Hehe

I was gonna one up you and say i'd rather clear the place with 155mm arty or a JDAM.

[MrGoodKat]

It is a mistake to consider the 5.56 as "TOO STRONG" or too powerful for CQB operation. with the right ammo, the 5.56 are actually much better round then the 9mm.

5.56 will tumble and fragment within the human body and it will not over penetrate the length of the torso. 5.56 will also defeat soft armor.

if strictly issued for CQB, I found no faluts to the F2000, although it seem bulky, but it does handle well within the CQB enviroment. with the ejected brass pushed forward of the shooter, it can transition from stron to support side shooting much like a conventiional rifle.

Thanks SMGlee! You mentioned about the 5.56 NOT being TOO powerful! That's what I thought too, but don't feel knowledgeable enough to argue about it. I think the 5.56 is definitely more effective. Also, thanks for speaking about your opinions on the F2000, always good to hear from you!

[Jadegecko]

Would I be hijacking the thread if I suggested adding the H&K G36c to the running, just to spark some more thought as to advantages/disadvantages of the weapons in question? The 'c is not perfect, but it might be worth considering as a point of comparison. It was, after all, a dedicated effort to pack 5.56 punch into an SMG-scale weapon (though certainly not the first!).

[silveykyle]

http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/3047/esw12hbxc9.th.jpg (http://img204.imageshack.us/my.php?image=esw12hbxc9.jpg)

[J4k3]

Inside the Delta Force is Amazing. Make sure you Read Rouge Warrior after that its Good too. the H&K is my guess because thats what Delta uses now and they know there stuff.

[Laconian]

I've never used a F2000 for CQB training, but I have used the MP5 for both training and application (warrant service not true CQB) and thought it was fine. We've just ditched them for M4s though,and as SMGLee said, with our rounds the M4 are ballistically better than the MP5. In the end, you'll get issued what they want you to have and train to use it: good, bad or otherwise.

[22.5degrees]

Keep in mind that even the shortest barreled AR/M16 will still fragment and/or tumble inside a human at the "social" distances in a CQB environment. As for the G36C question. It would make no difference. Operator training is what makes a difference.

22.5

[MrGoodKat]

Keep in mind that even the shortest barreled AR/M16 will still fragment and/or tumble inside a human at the "social" distances in a CQB environment. As for the G36C question. It would make no difference. Operator training is what makes a difference.

22.5


So as long as the user is trained on his particular weapon, it wouldnt really matter if it was a 10.5" AR-15, G36C or FS2000? What about instinctive shooting, does the configuration of the gun (bullpup or traditional) make a noticeable difference?

Thanks for all the responses, keep it up!

[Meldon]

What about instinctive shooting, does the configuration of the gun (bullpup or traditional) make a noticeable difference?

There is always a risk of jamming the weapon by not holding it correctly in the case of a bullpup rifle (If your arm is facing the chamber).

[dobrodan]

There is always a risk of jamming the weapon by not holding it correctly in the case of a bullpup rifle (If your arm is facing the chamber).

What is your point? At least when speaking of the F2000...

[Seraphim]

Inside the Delta Force is Amazing. Make sure you Read Rouge Warrior after that its Good too. the H&K is my guess because thats what Delta uses now and they know there stuff.

Best post of the year!

[Meringue87]

Singapore's SAR 21 RIS isn't so bad for CQB saw some of the troopers using it during a ship boarding demonstration.

[ClydeFrog]

Firing a 5.56mm weapon with a super short barrel indoors is a mess: pretty LOUD and a lot of muzzle flash. Not exactly what I would want. Moreover if you suppress your gun you'd probably want to use subsonic ammo too, so bye bye all your 5.56mm advantages. If it was inhouses CQC or whatever you call it I'd take an MP5 anyday.

[Luno]

Firing a 5.56mm weapon with a super short barrel indoors is a mess: pretty LOUD and a lot of muzzle flash. Not exactly what I would want. Moreover if you suppress your gun you'd probably want to use subsonic ammo too, so bye bye all your 5.56mm advantages. If it was inhouses CQC or whatever you call it I'd take an MP5 anyday.


That’s correct sir if shoot at an enemy at a short distance with a 5.56 weapon he bullet gone fly right true the guy and probably also right thru the wall behind him so you must be 100% sure that there is not a friendly team in the room behind him ..

BTW we did exercice CQB armed with H&K G3 (7.62mm) in a wooden house :cantbeli:

[Superking]

Firing a 5.56mm weapon with a super short barrel indoors is a mess: pretty LOUD and a lot of muzzle flash. Not exactly what I would want. Moreover if you suppress your gun you'd probably want to use subsonic ammo too, so bye bye all your 5.56mm advantages. If it was inhouses CQC or whatever you call it I'd take an MP5 anyday.

In most Iraq/Afghanistan videos soldiers seem to use supersonic ammunition when they use suppressors.

[Hawkeye]

Firing a 5.56mm weapon with a super short barrel indoors is a mess: pretty LOUD and a lot of muzzle flash. Not exactly what I would want. Moreover if you suppress your gun you'd probably want to use subsonic ammo too, so bye bye all your 5.56mm advantages. If it was inhouses CQC or whatever you call it I'd take an MP5 anyday.

Well that's the point of a bullpup rifle, longer barrel in more compact rifle.

*Tada*

[Superking]

That’s correct sir if shoot at an enemy at a short distance with a 5.56 weapon he bullet gone fly right true the guy and probably also right thru the wall behind him so you must be 100% sure that there is not a friendly team in the room behind him ..

BTW we did exercice CQB armed with H&K G3 (7.62mm) in a wooden house :cantbeli:

I think it´s SOP in the Swedish forces to use (some?) G3´s in MOUT because of the superior penetration on concrete and brick walls. It says something along those lines in the manual.

[Catch22]

Not having shot a F2000 (although I handled most versions, including Tactical) I can hardly compare it to the latter. Comparing apples and oranges that wolud be - 9mm smg vs 5,56mm Assault rifle? Compare within the same class at least - G36C/F2000/M4.

But just basing on my feelings toward the FN baby: it shoulders fine, it is a bit bulky, magazine change is a bit slower (no simple bolt release as in), stoppage procedure is strange to me from what I've seen + plus what if spent case gets stuck in the extraction tunnel due to dirt or whatever? It surely all goes down to practice... but I'd use something more simplistic in terms of operation.

[Luno]

I think it´s SOP in the Swedish forces to use (some?) G3´s in MOUT because of the superior penetration on concrete and brick walls. It says something along those lines in the manual.

Nope the regular Swedish army doesn’t use the Ak4 (H&K G3) anymore only the Home Guard.I think the 7.62mm is way to powerful to be used in CQB and the magazine capacity of 20 rounds is to little and the reloading time on a G3 is terrible.

[dacanadianbomb]

In most Iraq/Afghanistan videos soldiers seem to use supersonic ammunition when they use suppressors.

Now I have no knowledge of this stuff, but I find this hard to believe, that they are using any type of "special" ammo for suppressors.That would mean you would have to carry two types of ammo with you, one for unsuppressed and one for suppressed.
That is a logistics nightmare.

[ClydeFrog]

Hey I have no experience with suppressed guns whatsoever, but having one and using ordinary ammunition is going only half the way isn't it? And it's not like every average GI Joe gets a suppressor. What's louder btw, the sonic bang or the bang from the bullet being ignited?

Anyway, it's a lot easier and effective to suppress a 9mm MP5. I heard suppressing an M4 wasn't too good reliability-wise for the system either (heat).

[Hydro]

The bang from the weapon is louder than a sonic crack. The sonic crack just sounds like a whip snapping. It'll make your ears ring a little bit, but there's no pressure wave like there is from muzzle blast.

[Superking]

Now I have no knowledge of this stuff, but I find this hard to believe, that they are using any type of "special" ammo for suppressors.That would mean you would have to carry two types of ammo with you, one for unsuppressed and one for suppressed.
That is a logistics nightmare.

By supersonic i ment standard round.

[Superking]

The bang from the weapon is louder than a sonic crack. The sonic crack just sounds like a whip snapping. It'll make your ears ring a little bit, but there's no pressure wave like there is from muzzle blast.

Dunno about the source (cant remember) but i heard that it (crack) was in the 160db range at a few yards.

[MrGoodKat]

About the noise levels...and just for the record...the guys in Inside Delta Force used the muzzle blast and flash to their advantage to stun the people in the room to gain a tactial advantage. Infact, they enetered with a flash-bang grenade.

Now I know there is controversey about this book, but that part makes alot of sense to me.

[juju]

It seems that nowadays, more and more army/police forces involved in CQB are using 5.56 carbines/rifles. When loaded with the proper ammo, a 5.56 or 223 carbine is one of the right tool for the job.
Just like a 12 gauge shotgun, an AK47, or a 45 SMG like the Thompson or the HK UMP.
It always finally end with the operator's training and skills: Knowing where to shoot and how much lead needs to be delivered.

My .2cts

[ClydeFrog]

About the noise levels...and just for the record...the guys in Inside Delta Force used the muzzle blast and flash to their advantage to stun the people in the room to gain a tactial advantage. Infact, they enetered with a flash-bang grenade.

Now I know there is controversey about this book, but that part makes alot of sense to me.

Yeah but especially in police operations and/or hostage situations that is not always wanted.

In the end the difference is probably marginal anyways.

[Meldon]

What is your point? At least when speaking of the F2000...

I'm not a specialist of the F2000 so I didn't know it has a forward ejection. Really interesting (I wonder how it works).

http://www.youtube.com/v/GeYKe_RyeUs

[sekiryuu]

What exactly do Flashbangs do to you? Video games constantly portray them as making you blind for a few seconds, and ears ringing...

But I doubt it actually makes you blind--does it just disorient or startle you?

[dobrodan]

What exactly do Flashbangs do to you? Video games constantly portray them as making you blind for a few seconds, and ears ringing...

But I doubt it actually makes you blind--does it just disorient or startle you?

What happens if you are in a darkish room, and somebody points a sure-fire flashlight in your face?

[Laconian]

What exactly do Flashbangs do to you? Video games constantly portray them as making you blind for a few seconds, and ears ringing...

But I doubt it actually makes you blind--does it just disorient or startle you?
They provide distraction. The flash plays heck with vision, especially in a dark room. The bang aids in disorienting a subject. The combination of sensory overload can activate the sympathetic nervous system and freeze a subject's actions for several seconds allowing an entry to be made utilizing speed and violence of action.

[Martino]

I'm not a specialist of the F2000 so I didn't know it has a forward ejection. Really interesting (I wonder how it works).

http://www.youtube.com/v/GeYKe_RyeUs



I am noticing that the solider is firing and the spent casings are only ejected here and there. Do they build up?

[MrGoodKat]

The ejection tube is about 12" long, so casings build up in the tube, until they push the ejection port cover open. Sometimes they come out one at a time however, and some in twos and threes.

As for reliability:

1. FN put mud in the tube and the casings simply pushed out the clog, no problem.
2. I read that someone put electrical tape over the ejection port cover. The casings popped the tape lose and ejected without malfunction.
3. Firing straight up has been done and did not cause any problems.
4. I read a report of a user who stuffed a rag into the ejection tube trying to test the limits of the system. The casing pushed the rag out and the weapon did not malfunction.

HTH

[22.5degrees]

What exactly do Flashbangs do to you? Video games constantly portray them as making you blind for a few seconds, and ears ringing...

But I doubt it actually makes you blind--does it just disorient or startle you?

ALS technology flash bang devices produce 2.3 million candle power flash coupled with a 180dB report and generate close to 1 atmosphere overpressure. For folks who are trying to sleep or too busy with other tasks, it is enough to scare the crap out them long enough to make entry and either engage targets or apprehend them. Doorways, hallways, and stairways are commonly known as the "fatal ways" or fatal funnels. Bottom line, you die in any of the above, it forces you and your entire team to bottle neck at one area making you very vulnerable. By disorienting or distracting your target(s) for a couple seconds you buy time to clear the fatal funnel and dominate the area.

Having used a flashbang and been on the receiving end(training) it is not something I want deployed on me at 0300 in the morning. With full knowledge of it being deployed it still makes you jump and gets the heart racing.

In regards to suppressors. The report of the rifle(the bang) is more prevelant than the sonic boom or crack of the projectile. The sonic boom is heard if the bullet path is quite close to ones position. The use of subsonic ammo all but eliminates any kind of report produced by the catridge or its contents. 5.56 calibre firearms cannot fire subsonic ammo, and must use standard or supersonic ammo. The action of the firearm produces its own report. However, at anything other than social distances it is of little significance.



22.5

[sekiryuu]

I guess my parents need to stock on some Flashbangs to help me get up in the morning...

[Seraphim]

I guess my parents need to stock on some Flashbangs to help me get up in the morning...

I dont think they would appreciate the big black marks on the floor.

[sekiryuu]

Speaking of which, what would happen if one of those things went off in your hand? Bloody stump or 3rd degree burns?

[Hydro]

Dunno about the source (cant remember) but i heard that it (crack) was in the 160db range at a few yards.



I've had rounds going over my head at about a yard on the range when in the butts doing target work, and the crack is certainly manageable without hearing protection..

[BiZ]

Speaking of which, what would happen if one of those things went off in your hand? Bloody stump or 3rd degree burns?

You wouldn't be making piano recital in a hurry for starters...

[J4k3]

Best post of the year!

Lol thanks. Glad you agree

[22.5degrees]

Speaking of which, what would happen if one of those things went off in your hand? Bloody stump or 3rd degree burns?

Depends on the make of device. The RUAG munitions model from Switzerland is very safe. I stood beside my boss while he held a full house load. The trick is that the expanding gases from the detonation are propelled out the top and bottom. The body of the device is re-usable. Made my teeth rattle but it is survivable should it detonate in hand. The defence tech models are a different story. Many stories of serious injury. The RUAG model will only initiate the fuse upon the safety lever(or spoon) being released a full 60 degrees. Other makes only require 15-20 degrees.

22.5

[~center~]

Interesting debate. Just my 2-cents on a tricky and often misunderstood subject.

I read some other posts where the 5.56mm was preferred over the 9mm in CQB and they are in fact correct. Of course, you need the right tool for the job. Having said that, the 5.56mm at a velocity above 2700fps is completely devastating against flesh and will become frangible upon hitting its target at or above that velocity. Specifically, the 55-grain FMJ when used against sheet rock and like items will yaw almost immediately and this is when the fragmentation begins. For CQB and law enforcement ops this is what we want. Your seeing the tactical community starting to move away from the pistol caliber rounds and back to the 5.56mm and even the 7.62mm. These rifle rounds are completely devastating at close ranges especially when coupled with fragmenting bullets (i.e. bullets specifically engineered to fragment as opposed to FMJ-military ball).
FBI research, as well as other units, found that a single 9mm round fired from an MP-5 will actually over-penetrate MORE than a 5.56mm using similar type designed ammo out of a M4 carbine. It's basic physics. Aside from the speed difference of the bullets, the 5.56mm bullet is much longer than the short 9mm, so when the 5.56mm tumbles, the copper jacket is unable to contain the lead inside. At over 3200fps the 55grain 5.56mm round will fragment into over 100 pieces. Now just imagine if you are using fragmenting ammunition, specifically designed to fragment upon impact. Bad guys watch out!

As for the choice of weapons, bullpups have always been at a disadvantage to others because of the ejection of spent casings (which the F2000 seems to have solved) and the worst in my opinion, the magazine release. In order to change magazines the operator has to use their support hand to remove the magazine, then use that very same hand to insert a new mag. Not good in a CQB situation. Of course that's what a transition is for. Because of those two things, bullpup weapons require MORE training than others. One of the best attributes of the bullpup of course, is the fact that the receiver/chamber is behind the firing hand. This results in an overall shorter weapon without sacrificing barrel length and thus increasing muzzle velocity, which is a good thing.
Over all, the F2000 is more of a compromise between two or more weapon systems. With good and bad attributes. Again, the right tool for the job. I see the F2000 as not being really GREAT for any application but good for most. If you’re a professional force who can't afford to arm your troops/officers with more than one system then the F2000 might be just the firearm for you. Then again, the F2000 isn't exactly cheap so you would have to weigh the unit cost to include serviceability, available accessories, etc and go from there.

In this particular case, if I had to, I'd pick the MP-5 over the F2000. Using high velocity fragmenting rounds such as Glaser (very expensive) for the MP-5. Also, the MP-5 is very accurate with low recoil, very manuverable and slim.

Given the choice of any, I'll take the HK 416 or the SIG 556 any day of the week. As for now, I guess I'll just have to be content switching back and forth from my 9mm to my 5.56mm as the ops come and go.
Toolbox people.

Semper Fi

[MrGoodKat]

Interesting debate. Just my 2-cents on a tricky and often misunderstood subject.

I read some other posts where the 5.56mm was preferred over the 9mm in CQB and they are in fact correct. Of course, you need the right tool for the job. Having said that, the 5.56mm at a velocity above 2700fps is completely devastating against flesh and will become frangible upon hitting its target at or above that velocity. Specifically, the 55-grain FMJ when used against sheet rock and like items will yaw almost immediately and this is when the fragmentation begins. For CQB and law enforcement ops this is what we want. Your seeing the tactical community starting to move away from the pistol caliber rounds and back to the 5.56mm and even the 7.62mm. These rifle rounds are completely devastating at close ranges especially when coupled with fragmenting bullets (i.e. bullets specifically engineered to fragment as opposed to FMJ-military ball).
FBI research, as well as other units, found that a single 9mm round fired from an MP-5 will actually over-penetrate MORE than a 5.56mm using similar type designed ammo out of a M4 carbine. It's basic physics. Aside from the speed difference of the bullets, the 5.56mm bullet is much longer than the short 9mm, so when the 5.56mm tumbles, the copper jacket is unable to contain the lead inside. At over 3200fps the 55grain 5.56mm round will fragment into over 100 pieces. Now just imagine if you are using fragmenting ammunition, specifically designed to fragment upon impact. Bad guys watch out!

As for the choice of weapons, bullpups have always been at a disadvantage to others because of the ejection of spent casings (which the F2000 seems to have solved) and the worst in my opinion, the magazine release. In order to change magazines the operator has to use their support hand to remove the magazine, then use that very same hand to insert a new mag. Not good in a CQB situation. Of course that's what a transition is for. Because of those two things, bullpup weapons require MORE training than others. One of the best attributes of the bullpup of course, is the fact that the receiver/chamber is behind the firing hand. This results in an overall shorter weapon without sacrificing barrel length and thus increasing muzzle velocity, which is a good thing.
Over all, the F2000 is more of a compromise between two or more weapon systems. With good and bad attributes. Again, the right tool for the job. I see the F2000 as not being really GREAT for any application but good for most. If you’re a professional force who can't afford to arm your troops/officers with more than one system then the F2000 might be just the firearm for you. Then again, the F2000 isn't exactly cheap so you would have to weigh the unit cost to include serviceability, available accessories, etc and go from there.

In this particular case, if I had to, I'd pick the MP-5 over the F2000. Using high velocity fragmenting rounds such as Glaser (very expensive) for the MP-5. Also, the MP-5 is very accurate with low recoil, very manuverable and slim.

Given the choice of any, I'll take the HK 416 or the SIG 556 any day of the week. As for now, I guess I'll just have to be content switching back and forth from my 9mm to my 5.56mm as the ops come and go.
Toolbox people.

Semper Fi


Very insightful, thanks for weighing in!

[Seraphim]

Lol thanks. Glad you agree

You do know I was being sarcastic right?

[SMGLee]

Interesting debate. Just my 2-cents on a tricky and often misunderstood subject.

I read some other posts where the 5.56mm was preferred over the 9mm in CQB and they are in fact correct. Of course, you need the right tool for the job. Having said that, the 5.56mm at a velocity above 2700fps is completely devastating against flesh and will become frangible upon hitting its target at or above that velocity. Specifically, the 55-grain FMJ when used against sheet rock and like items will yaw almost immediately and this is when the fragmentation begins. For CQB and law enforcement ops this is what we want. Your seeing the tactical community starting to move away from the pistol caliber rounds and back to the 5.56mm and even the 7.62mm. These rifle rounds are completely devastating at close ranges especially when coupled with fragmenting bullets (i.e. bullets specifically engineered to fragment as opposed to FMJ-military ball).
FBI research, as well as other units, found that a single 9mm round fired from an MP-5 will actually over-penetrate MORE than a 5.56mm using similar type designed ammo out of a M4 carbine. It's basic physics. Aside from the speed difference of the bullets, the 5.56mm bullet is much longer than the short 9mm, so when the 5.56mm tumbles, the copper jacket is unable to contain the lead inside. At over 3200fps the 55grain 5.56mm round will fragment into over 100 pieces. Now just imagine if you are using fragmenting ammunition, specifically designed to fragment upon impact. Bad guys watch out!

As for the choice of weapons, bullpups have always been at a disadvantage to others because of the ejection of spent casings (which the F2000 seems to have solved) and the worst in my opinion, the magazine release. In order to change magazines the operator has to use their support hand to remove the magazine, then use that very same hand to insert a new mag. Not good in a CQB situation. Of course that's what a transition is for. Because of those two things, bullpup weapons require MORE training than others. One of the best attributes of the bullpup of course, is the fact that the receiver/chamber is behind the firing hand. This results in an overall shorter weapon without sacrificing barrel length and thus increasing muzzle velocity, which is a good thing.
Over all, the F2000 is more of a compromise between two or more weapon systems. With good and bad attributes. Again, the right tool for the job. I see the F2000 as not being really GREAT for any application but good for most. If you’re a professional force who can't afford to arm your troops/officers with more than one system then the F2000 might be just the firearm for you. Then again, the F2000 isn't exactly cheap so you would have to weigh the unit cost to include serviceability, available accessories, etc and go from there.

In this particular case, if I had to, I'd pick the MP-5 over the F2000. Using high velocity fragmenting rounds such as Glaser (very expensive) for the MP-5. Also, the MP-5 is very accurate with low recoil, very manuverable and slim.

Given the choice of any, I'll take the HK 416 or the SIG 556 any day of the week. As for now, I guess I'll just have to be content switching back and forth from my 9mm to my 5.56mm as the ops come and go.
Toolbox people.

Semper Fi


Center, I wholeheartedly agree with everything you said except of the Glaser. I would rather prefer a 127Gr. +p+ STX out of my MP5.

[SMGLee]

Depends on the make of device. The RUAG munitions model from Switzerland is very safe. I stood beside my boss while he held a full house load. The trick is that the expanding gases from the detonation are propelled out the top and bottom. The body of the device is re-usable. Made my teeth rattle but it is survivable should it detonate in hand. The defence tech models are a different story. Many stories of serious injury. The RUAG model will only initiate the fuse upon the safety lever(or spoon) being released a full 60 degrees. Other makes only require 15-20 degrees.

22.5

I ran the ALS device, it is the best I have used. I never had the pleasure of using the RUAG, but it looks like an excellent device.

[22.5degrees]

The RUAG is one hell of a big beast. Being reusable you can't help that. Only had a handfull of oportunities to play with them, none in a real scenario. My local SWAT team tried a few and were quite pleased with the exception of weight. Lots of good clean fun to be had with DD's.

22.5

[~center~]

Center, I wholeheartedly agree with everything you said except of the Glaser. I would rather prefer a 127Gr. +p+ STX out of my MP5.

Funny you say that, right now we're using 165gr SXT Ranger LE ammo in our service Glocks. We were just descussing those exact rounds you mentioned a couple of days ago. That grain mixed with the SXT round AND the +P+ should yield some great ballistics coming from a MP-5. Would also give just a bit more penetration when shooting through glass, etc. :)

[SMGLee]

Funny you say that, right now we're using 165gr SXT Ranger LE ammo in our service Glocks. We were just descussing those exact rounds you mentioned a couple of days ago. That grain mixed with the SXT round AND the +P+ should yield some great ballistics coming from a MP-5. Would also give just a bit more penetration when shooting through glass, etc. :)

We shot some in training, the round definitely yield some more added punch then my good old 115gr +p+. It sure was impressive in gel and also great fun with watermelons.

[~center~]

great fun with watermelons.


LOL... Very nice. FYI cantalope work great as well. :)

[budgie]

I know about the guns individually. I meant, which do you think is superior for this specific task.

Sorry if that wasn't clear.

I'm no expert but traditionally 9mm weapons have been used for Hostage rescue and so on because the bullet stops when it hits someone. The danger with a rifle cartridge is that it may penetrate a wall or a bad guy and hit an innocent. that said there seems to be a trend for SWAT teams and so on to use carbines these days because bad guys can buy body armour. I wonder, do they use a special round with less reach than normal in these?

[Seraphim]

I'm no expert but traditionally 9mm weapons have been used for Hostage rescue and so on because the bullet stops when it hits someone. The danger with a rifle cartridge is that it may penetrate a wall or a bad guy and hit an innocent. that said there seems to be a trend for SWAT teams and so on to use carbines these days because bad guys can buy body armour. I wonder, do they use a special round with less reach than normal in these?

Well the only useful part of your post was the first few words.
It all depends on the bullet. You cant lump it in huge categories like 9mm and rifle cartridges...what rifle cartridges?

[SMGLee]

I'm no expert but traditionally 9mm weapons have been used for Hostage rescue and so on because the bullet stops when it hits someone. The danger with a rifle cartridge is that it may penetrate a wall or a bad guy and hit an innocent. that said there seems to be a trend for SWAT teams and so on to use carbines these days because bad guys can buy body armour. I wonder, do they use a special round with less reach than normal in these?

Actually the 5.56 RIFLE cartridge will yield and start truning and break up almost immediately upon impact and most of the time the energy is robbed by the wall material that the projectile is ineffective once exiting the other side, if it actually exit. this is true for 55gr or 62gr FMJ shot within a 25m range from a 10.5 inch barrel. usually room to room fighting you are not going to engage anything more then that so I am using this data for comparison.

the 9mm PISTOL bullet in FMJ will not do anything rem otely similiar to a 5.56, it will just go straight through drywall after drywall. Once we shot inside an abondon apartment and the 9mm fmj went through four walls before we found it lodged side ways inside the last wall. 9mm HP is another sotry, but if the small opening of the 9mm HP gets filled up with material, the bullet might not expand as designed and it becomes a FMJ and over penetrate torso or wall.

[KaceCoyote]

Lee is correct. Velocity equals fragmentation, I think the reason 9mm is so popular is for a few reasons. They're light, low recoil, high cyclic rate weapons which are externally very small.

Just the same I think blended metal technology will soon make this whole debate pointless.

[Hydro]

Just the same I think blended metal technology will soon make this whole debate pointless.


Wasn't Blended Metal proven to be a complete crock of ****?

[SMGLee]

Wasn't Blended Metal proven to be a complete crock of ****?


there is no blended metal in the blended metal technology.

It just uses a super light weight that is traveling at hyper velocity to do the destruction.

[Hydro]

there is no blended metal in the blended metal technology.

It just uses a super light weight that is traveling at hyper velocity to do the destruction.



Gotcha. Cheers Chen.

[KaceCoyote]

Wasn't Blended Metal proven to be a complete crock of ****?
Yes and no. There was two claims as to the technology. One, it didnt overpenetrate nomatter what and two it caused some sort've super uber godlike OMGHAX sorta damage to the target.

Blended metal's claims that it didnt overpenetrate have been as far as I have seen, proven to be true and infact the real deal. Link me if ya read something to the contrary, new stuff may've come out.

The pig video(which was retarded) however did nothing but prove that the technology needs more development. A lack of overpenetration is very desirable however independent testing seems to suggest that the bullet's structure coming apart bleeds away much of the force. So it creates a deep wound with little useful kinetic transfer. All that energy is going somewhere, because the round stays inside the target but that energy is expelled in such a manner that if anything its less damaging than a traditional round.

Now thats not as huge of a deal as it may initially seem like, because the round is still creating a damaging wound, its accurate as traditional ammunition and as far as I've seen it doesnt overpenetrate. What I think the problem is, is that we were all saw so much promotional crap saying this stuff was like the finger of god. Now that we see its about as effective if slightly less so than FMJ, the let down is overshadowing the utility it still retains.



Really I'm waiting to see more polymers work their way into bullets, like the cor-bon POW'R ball and the Nosler Ballistic tip. Both of these rounds use a hard rubber or nylon(or whatever) tip which while in transit offers a very low ballistic co-ef and then when the round impacts this tip presses into a cavity behind it to facilitate expansion. I'm not a sniper but I do hunt Coyotes(which takes place beyond 300 yards around here) and I can attest to the difference from a normal bonded, HP and led tipped round against something like a Ballistic silvertip from Winchester. Rapid expansion and a great energy deposit, to really drop the animal quickly.

Now for a person I think something off the shelf like a Winchester silvertip is probably going to offer some premature expansion, partially because it was developed specifically for things like Coyotes. I see alot've hunters finding outstanding success with the same round in bigger calibers like .308 and such however, and not noting premature expansion so I imagine there is alot've difference to be made in both the metalurgy of the bullet itself as well as the specific material of the "nose cone".

[22.5degrees]

Here's a thread which destroys any credibility to the claim of LeMas blended metal projectiles.

http://www.tacticalforums.com/cgi-bin/tacticalubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=78&t=001189


On a side note, KaceCoyote, where are your rounds striking the coyotes? About a month ago I shot a Coyote at 410 yards (measured with the GPS) with my 14.5" AR using 55gr FMJ. The yote tumbled after impact and managed to crawl several yards before expiring. The entrance wound was around mid-body and about 2 inches below centre line. To think that a 30cal, say .308 ballistic tip wouldn't effectively incapacitate a human is something I find very hard to swallow.

Here's a site run by a friend who tested several .308 catridges out of his 18.5 M14 EBR.

http://www.tacticalworks.ca/content_sub/gelatin_testing/308_150gr_nosler_bal_tip_18in_barrel/308_150gr_nosler_ballistic_tip.html

22.5

[mcsplurry]

f2000 has more stopping power but mp5 is more manoverable

[Chops]

f2000 has more stopping power but mp5 is more manoverable

Thanks for that gold contribution son

[Hydro]

f2000 has more stopping power but mp5 is more manoverable



Stopping power is relative I think. At the ranges in your average house, there's probably not going to be much difference; he gets hit, he's going down. What the major factor is, is what the round will do once it's hit the guy. 5.56 will definitely have more stopping power at longer range (at 300m, 5.56 will drop someone, 9mm out of an MP5, you'd better be a good shot just to hit him).

Maneouvrability; bear in mind F2000 is bullpup, they tend to be very very "pointable", so this may be a moot point. With the L85, I'm just as manoueverable as I would be with an MP5. (Not used MP5 for any length of time, just they really feel sort of similar to me in terms of "pointability" after handling both weapons).

[angry cow]

There is also the question of use, even in a CQB environment, you have to approach the structure somehow, and you can't always guarantee that all your targets will be within 25m range. Having never shot a 9mm SMG maybe someone could give a rough estimate of an effective COMBAT range in the hands of a skilled operator. Say for a MP-5 to keep things simple.

Certainly for military use, once you have the possibility of engaging targets at 100m (hell even at 50m) and beyond I would want my good old M4. That and I would get nervous about stopping power for a 9mm. But maybe I'm just being a pussy cause all I know are mil-issued M4 and M16A2-A3.

I know its supposed to only be for a CQB environment, but unless you get to drive your own vehicle with an assortment of personalized weapons up to the objective how can you ever guarantee that you would ONLY use a weapon in CQB? And even Law Enforcement doesn't always get to completely lock a scene down before they kick down doors. School shootings are an example that omes to mind, if somewhat rare.

Anyways, I don't think the question that started this thread is entirely pointless since at least we got alot of folks with know-how to share their wisdom . . .

[splittr92]

can i pick a third option?
i would go for the P90

[Laconian]

can i pick a third option?
i would go for the P90


No, you can't. Now choke yourself for necroposting in a 2-year old thread and adding absolutely nothing of substance or value.

[Laworkerbee]

can i pick a third option?
i would go for the P90

You're awesome.

[SMGLee]

can i pick a third option?
i would go for the P90

In the new world of Obama and the liberals, you will not need guns, it will be fill with peace, and love......think Flower and doves..

[flanker7]

Post edited for being OT.

Sorry

[Irish-GNR-FF]

if i had a choice it would be this

[Neptune_43rd]

hahahahaha.. if given another option i would go for a UMP 45.. u get good knocking power of the old .45 ACP in a light package..