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BronzeBow
11-03-2006, 02:00 AM
The Rhodesian Example
by Michael Peirce

Some of us have suggested that blasting the Taliban into oblivion and occupying the entire country of Afghanistan just might not be the most effective way to destroy the Al Qaeda terrorists. For this we have been called a lot of names and the unjustified assumption has been made that those of us who think that way must either be wimps or "soft on terror." Since I am neither of these things I’ve concluded that maybe some folks don’t realize that there actually other tactics available that are both more effective in hurting the terrorists and more consistent with the classic Christian interpretation of the "just war." I remain dumbfounded that we began our attack on Al Qaeda by wasting all that ordnance on the people who had not staged the attack upon us, giving the real enemy time to organize themselves and scatter.

My take on it has been from the beginning – attack the guys who did the "stunt" and tell the Taliban to stay out of our way. Make it plain that staying out of our way is very conducive to staying alive. Having divided Al Qaeda from their hosts, hit them with whatever ordnance is available and do it right away. Is this totally unrealistic? Let’s review the facts of how real soldiers dealt with real terrorists and see just how plausible this tactic can be.

It was the despicable Jimmy Carter that joined our nation to the unholy alliance with the Soviet Union, Great Britain, and Communist China and openly helped brutal and murderous communist bandits take down western cultures in southern Africa. Yep, that really happened and those of you who wander why some of us aren’t so quick to jump on the government bandwagon need to consider this.

Despite the overwhelming force arrayed against them, the tiny, embattled country of Rhodesia gave the world an object lesson in how to fight terrorism. In 1978 the Rhodesians were to up the ante and show us all just what the term "economy of force mission" is all about.

The terrorists were staging in Zambia and had several large base camps near Lusaka. There were thousands of them in these base camps and they were well organized and well equipped. The crazed fanatics at the United Nations had embargoed Rhodesia while apostate Christian organizations like the World Council of Churches had joined with other liberals and left-wing extremists to supply and nurture these murderous terrorists. One might ask that if the United States was really engaged in a Cold War with the Soviet Union at that time, and if the security of our country and the free world really was on the line, then weren’t the actions of Jimmy Carter and the organizations noted on the order of high treason? Just asking…

It’s interesting to note that Rhodesia, a country with no interest whatsoever in South East Asian affairs, was one of the very few of our so-called allies to offer to support America in Vietnam with troops. They had been our allies in World War II and while the ill considered and murderous war in Vietnam was hardly a noble cause, the Rhodesians had none the less offered us their support simply because that is what allies do. Or used to do. The Rhodesians, like the Serbs, have learned that "ally" means something different to Americans than what it meant to them.

For more on the history of Rhodesia including information on the Tribal Trustlands, Unilateral Independence, and race relations in general please refer to The Case For Rhodesia.

The short version is that during the first few years of freedom following the Unilateral Declaration of Independence from Britain Prime Minister Ian Smith’s "renegade" government was one of the most ably managed and least governed countries in the world. The white people and educated blacks enjoyed a standard of living much like that in the United States or UK, while the tribal villagers had the highest standard of living in black Africa.

Then the Russians and the Chinese communists showed up and the Cubans – with mouths full of Marxist slogans and boatloads of guns and explosives – initially consisting mostly of landmines and submachine guns but later including late model East Bloc weaponry. Weapons that were employed against civilian farmers and tribal villagers… The terrorist incidents gradually escalated from isolated bandit attacks to full scale savagery.

To communist "fighters" their enemies are seen simply as criminals – the upper classes slated for "liquidation," and the lower classes for "re-education" and domination through unspeakable terror. Don’t take my word for it. Read their own words – read Lenin or Mao and remember that their body count suggests that they meant the things they said. Then ask yourselves why this is not taught in our schools – it’s a fair question in a country dominated by leftists and their tedious claims to the moral high ground.

The world ignored horrific attacks like the slaughter and mutilation of innocent tribal villagers, and the Viscount disaster – where terrorists shot down a passenger plane with a Russian strella missile, and then raped and butchered the survivors. Read the words of a Rhodesian pastor whose sermon "The Silence is Deafening" is a dreadful indictment of the West’s response to that atrocity. Seeing how America in its current war on terrorism expects the whole world to get on board because of the presumed moral culpability of our enemies one can only wonder how that same America could blithely ignore acts of terrorism as brutal and deadly as that one.

The British disgraced themselves once and for all by refusing even to sell prosthetics to Rhodesia when a young farm girl lost her legs to a terrorist mine, planted by fanatics who were cheered on by those same Brits. Russian ships jammed Rhodesian communications and broke the daily "shackle" codes used by the military in the field so quickly that it was assumed that no comms were really secure. Rhodesia had few friends and the embargo began to bite deeply early on. The fight however, continued – the Rhodesians were anything but quitters.

By the mid seventies thousands of well organized terrorists were staging in Mozambique and Zambia, so called "front line" states. That translates into "countries where communist dictators had already seized control." I "visited" the camps in Mozambique myself and can testify to the truth of that statement. The camps in Zambia had a prior visit from a battle group best remembered by the call sign of the tactical air commander, "Green Leader." That was the operation that could have, and perhaps should have served as a model to the US when we attacked Afghanistan.

Terrorists were staging in Zambia and routinely crossing the Zambezi to murder and maim Rhodesian citizens. (Again – I am an eyewitness having been engaged in a rather nasty affair on the Zambezi where we knocked out a terrorist group coming across the river from Zambia) Zambia could have legitimately been construed as an enemy and the Rhodesians could have readily bombedLusaka. They did not – they were able to focus on fighting their real enemies who were the ZIPRA and ZANLA terrorists cadres so beloved of the leftist media in Peking, Moscow, Britain, and America.

The Rhodesians had a major advantage over the United States, however, when it came to fighting terrorists. They weren’t concerned for world opinion or coalitions and had no thoughts of "nation building," those folks were focused! Plus, the government was actually responding to the will of the people for if there ever was a government that was "of the people, by the people, for the people," it was that of the Rhodesians. It makes a difference when you are defending the people as opposed to defending some broadly defined "national interest" that somehow never seems to benefit anyone you know.

The Rhodesians were wonderful improvisers and put together an assault group with obsolete jet fighter-bombers, helicopters, and old Dakotas for the paratroops. The forces used for raids into host countries were extremely lean by modern standards. Less than a hundred paratroopers and some SAS types plus air force personnel, some medics and engineers. They had learned to coordinate their forces very smoothly and bring overwhelming force against a specific target. The strike force operated quite similarly to American Special Forces in Afghanistan as far as tactics go – small groups of well-trained men with a lot more radios and machine guns than normal infantry. That got them a lot of bang for the buck.

So one bright day these Rhodesians brought death to the terrorists in Zambia without harming a single Zambian civilian or soldier, and they did it with incredible panache. How? Try this on for size:

"Tower, this is Green Leader, this is the Rhodesian Air Force. We are now in control of your airspace and no plane will land or take off until further notice. Planes in the air will circle in a holding pattern that we will assign. We will give you further instructions as we proceed." Green Leader was the code name of the Rhodesian air commander who simply took control of the airspace over Lusaka and despite the Zambians having an air force that included Mig 17 interceptors (the equal of the Rhodesian’s Hawker Hunters) those folks got real wise real fast and froze in place. Green Leader and his small force of Hunters effectively neutralized the Zambian armed forces for several long critical hours. (For a live transmission of this communication, there is actually a tape of it available on the web.) Part 1. Part2.

Meantime, back at the terrorist base camps, Armageddon. First, "Golf" Bombs (homemade concussion bombs – very powerful) to daze those already dozy characters, more strafing and bombing, then airborne folks came in on helicopters with light infantry weapons to finish them off. Paratrooper "Stop Groups" were dropped further out from the target area and sealed off escape from the base camps. Few terrorists were able to escape. Thousands of "Terrs" as they were called, would butcher no more civilians and chant no more communist slogans. They had been wiped out without ever raising any effective resistance at all. When the raid was complete, tons of firearms and munitions were airlifted back to Rhodesia or blown up. When the assault forces had completed their work, Green Leader calmly and politely returned control of the Zambian air space back to Zambia!

Zambian zeal for the terrorist cause was somewhat dampened by this, as one might well imagine! Bombing the Zambians would have made them angry and they would have called for revenge and it could well have spiralled into that many more deaths. Instead, the Zambian government got a revealing look at their own vulnerability without suffering the indignity (and casualties) of an all-out attack. As for the terrorists? They were the devil’s problem after that.

It should be noted that photographs of the camps and the weaponry seized there were made available to the western press but were ignored. The LA Times spoke of an attack by Rhodesian mercenaries on a refugee camp. Does the media have a leftist agenda? You be the judge.

The Rhodesians were able to strike this blow because they knew perfectly well that they were fighting for survival and that could be attained only by making the best possible use of their military. They were minding their own business and not intervening in the affairs of others, and even in their most awesome displays of force were careful to target only the guilty and limit so called "collateral damage." There was no antiwar movement in Rhodesia. Fathers, sons, and even grandfathers (Dad’s Army) did their call-ups in the army or police reserve.

The terrorist enemy, on the other hand, followed the tried and true communist tactic of striking civilians, black and white; torture and mutilation were their stock and trade. Is it unfair to ask why the American government supported those people?

The Rhodesians eventually went down, betrayed at last in their naiveté by their "friends" in the British commonwealth. Although by then the country was under the aegis of a bi-racial government led by the Bishop Abel Muzarewa, this was not enough for the international community. So called "peace-keeping" forces from the Commonwealth kept a close eye on the Rhodesian forces while abandoning the helpless villagers to the depredations and intimidation of the terrorist forces – it was obvious when it was too late, that the door should never have been opened to them. The socialist government of Britain, like their more overtly communist allies, was only happy when the thugs were running the show.

I believe it is time to ask ourselves, as Americans, if we wish to follow this path, and hand our civilization over to the third world and forsake for ever the traditions of our western cultural heritage, and sink like Rhodesia, into a mire of inefficiency, corruption and brutality. It is the path we are on; it is the path down which political correctness is leading us and it is the cherished dream of our enemies that we should do so. Why Americans are throwing their freedom at the feet of a government that is leading us down that path is beyond me and sometimes I fear that ultimately we have just betrayed too many friends, murdered too many unborn babies, and stuck our noses into too many places where we had no business, and that perhaps the good Lord has finally just given us over to our own depravity.

There is an answer of course. There is no rule set in stone that says we must capitulate to the left, that we must answer only to those whose policies are those of savage and depraved beasts.

Every wicked agenda has an ultimate goal – to see where America is heading you have only to look to modern day Zimbabwe, where once there were moderation and good manners, and now there is epidemic, starvation and depravity.

Why do we as Americans act against our own best interests? Why do we allow ourselves to be ruled by the left wing press and outright criminals like Ted Kennedy, John McCain and Bill Clinton? Why is a man like George Bush, whose dream is to throw open our borders to the riff raff of the world considered a hero by so many? I say to you that we can still repent of our evil and foolish ways; that we can still restore our society and dismantle the apparatus of empire, but it will take commitment and integrity. We will have to stop murdering our children and nurturing the worst elements in our culture, and I suppose that is just too much to ask. It would be inconvenient, and inconvenience is more than we are willing to put up with in this post-modern Dark Age in which we find ourselves.

Icarus1
11-03-2006, 04:02 AM
Although he has some good points, he has a pretty ignorant opinion. Also his way of calling political persons (like Clinton) criminals is respectless.

SamHamam
11-03-2006, 04:31 AM
Have a listen to this:

http://trevino.at/docs/audio/Green%20Leader.mp3

Crazed Aussie
11-03-2006, 04:31 AM
No mention of the Selous Scouts hmmmm? Interesting. For the most part the Rhodesians conducted damn good counter terrorist warfare, and yes therein lies a lesson, but is anybody listening??

Ordie
11-03-2006, 04:59 AM
I do not doubt the Rhodesians ability to fight an insurgency. However, the main reason why the United States did not overtly support Rhodesia is because it was a white minority ruled nation. Many in the US equated the 'struggle' against the Rhodesian government to that of the Civil Rights movement in the United States. Same was true towards the South Africa during Aparthied.

FYI: The majority of Sealous Scouts were Blacks.

A major lesson to be learned was that the ANC, which was considered moderate party, was banned. With no recourse, the opposition evenually became radical in the form of ZANU and ZAPU.

Always keep a diplomatic channels open with your opposition. The Rhodesians failed to do this and paid the price. Had the ANC been involved with the government from the beginning, we would have a different Zimbabwe today.

James
11-03-2006, 05:26 AM
That rant sounds like it's from 2001...

Ordie
11-03-2006, 05:36 AM
A lesson here is that the Rhodesians may have won the battles but lost the war. Same was true with Vietnam and possibly today if we do not learn from history.

martinexsquaddie
11-03-2006, 05:38 AM
deranged rant rhodesians chose the wrong path when they went for UDI and decided to fight the wrong war it was never going to lead to victory

AIRBORNEJOCK
11-03-2006, 05:48 AM
britain had a great deal to do stabbing rhodesia in the back and its came back to bite us in the arse because of mugabe whos turned the breadbasket of africa into a poverty stricken ****hole.

Hellfish
11-03-2006, 10:37 AM
deranged rant rhodesians chose the wrong path when they went for UDI and decided to fight the wrong war it was never going to lead to victory

I don't think the Rhodies chose to fight their war, but I think they were responsible for it.

Fact is, the West wouldn't have tolerated supporting a white minority government. It was (and is) politically impossible in a democratic state. It had nothing to do with the "Lefties" and had everything to do with the images coming out of Rhodesia and South Africa that were painfully similar to the images coming out of the United States roughly ten or fifteen years earlier. The rights and wrongs of tacit support for psuedo-communist guerillas were and are irrelevant for the simple fact that the people in power were whites that kept power from the majority.

I'm a big admirer of Rhodesia's military - they were the best counterinsurgency force in the world at the time. There are a lot of valuable lessons to be learned from the fire force concept that I honestly think could be applied in Iraq and Afghanistan. But that's tactics and operations, which has little or nothing to do with politics.

And for the record, Zimbabwe still doesn't have the kind of government the guerillas fought for.

James
11-03-2006, 04:59 PM
britain had a great deal to do stabbing rhodesia in the back and its came back to bite us in the arse because of mugabe whos turned the breadbasket of africa into a poverty stricken ****hole.

How did Zimbabwe bite the UK in the ass?

zimboon
11-03-2006, 06:15 PM
Rhodesia was dropped by South Africa and the USA. The USA is a fickle ally, that has been my experience.

Hellfish
11-03-2006, 06:40 PM
Rhodesia was dropped by South Africa and the USA. The USA is a fickle ally, that has been my experience.

Yeah, to an extent - except that some of the last people to leave Rhodesia were the 2000 or so SADF support personnel and pilots that were helping out. A lot of the Rhodies ended up in the SADF too. AFAIR, only Israel and SA provided any measure of support.

Kaapeli
11-03-2006, 07:06 PM
In our nostalgia let's not forget that Rhodesia was a F:d up racist nation and good riddance.
Anyway, now that the compulsory PC part is done with, I do consider the Rhodesian anti-insurgency tactics and their SF as the smoothest operators EVER.

Hellfish
11-03-2006, 07:07 PM
In our nostalgia let's not forget that Rhodesia was a F:d up racist nation and good riddance.
Anyway, now that the compulsory PC part is done with, I do consider the Rhodesian anti-insurgency tactics and their SF as the smoothest operators EVER.

Is the Zimbabwe government any less racist?

Kaapeli
11-03-2006, 07:08 PM
Is the Zimbabwe government any less racist?

Two bads don't make one right.

Lt. James Anderson
11-03-2006, 07:10 PM
In our nostalgia let's not forget that Rhodesia was a F:d up racist nation and good riddance.
Anyway, now that the compulsory PC part is done with, I do consider the Rhodesian anti-insurgency tactics and their SF as the smoothest operators EVER.

This is what a person sounds like after brain amputation ...

Hellfish
11-03-2006, 07:11 PM
Two bads don't make one right.

I'm not saying it does. But I think looking at it objectively, the Rhodies were the lesser of the two evils.

Kaapeli
11-03-2006, 07:15 PM
This is what a person sounds like after brain amputation ...

Nice argumentation as always. Ad hominem.
But seriously I'd enjoy discussing the subject more than what you're contributing at the moment. Please, tell me exactly how do you disagree.

Kaapeli
11-03-2006, 07:21 PM
I'm not saying it does. But I think looking at it objectively, the Rhodies were the lesser of the two evils.

Unfortunately(?) we believe in democracy, don't we?
Anyway I believe in learning through mistakes too and that's what I see is happening.

Hellfish
11-03-2006, 07:26 PM
Unfortunately(?) we believe in democracy, don't we?
Anyway I believe in learning through mistakes too and that's what I see is happening.

Whoa, where do you see a democracy anywhere north of South Africa?

Lt. James Anderson
11-03-2006, 07:29 PM
Your statement was one of oversimplification and disregard of the historical evidence. What is there to answer to? That was a conflict that the whole world was involved in one way or the other (against Rhodesia). Let's first go to accusations of racism. Blacks composed most of the Rhodesian security forces ... I might be wrong but I believe the only all white unit was the C squadron SAS. Despite the ongoing war, economic sanctions and everything else that went wrong nobody was ever hungry (two years ago they resorted to slaughtering of animals in the national park to feed the population!) ... Do you count that as racism? Black population of Rhodesia under the "racist" govt was considered one of the most literate on the continent ... Is that racism? Crime was almost zero (as opposed to today) ... Is that racism? I can go on and on ...

Lt. James Anderson
11-03-2006, 07:30 PM
Whoa, where do you see a democracy anywhere north of South Africa?

You see it in the SA? LOL .... That's a bad joke.

Hellfish
11-03-2006, 07:33 PM
You see it in the SA? LOL .... That's a bad joke.

Maybe, but at least they make an effort...

BTW - the Rhodesian Light Infantry was all white too.

Kaapeli
11-03-2006, 07:36 PM
Whoa, where do you see a democracy anywhere north of South Africa?

Ok. You're absolutely right. It can't be democracy if they don't vote for colonialism and apartheid. I mean that's the African dream (TM).

ElHombre
11-03-2006, 07:38 PM
Despite the overwhelming force arrayed against them, the tiny, embattled country of Rhodesia gave the world an object lesson in how to fight terrorism.

US Vietnam veteran to former VC; 'You know, we beat you in every single significant battle.'

Former VC: 'That is very true. It is also irrelevant.'

Kaapeli
11-03-2006, 07:38 PM
Your statement was one of oversimplification and disregard of the historical evidence. What is there to answer to? That was a conflict that the whole world was involved in one way or the other (against Rhodesia). Let's first go to accusations of racism. Blacks composed most of the Rhodesian security forces ... I might be wrong but I believe the only all white unit was the C squadron SAS. Despite the ongoing war, economic sanctions and everything else that went wrong nobody was ever hungry (two years ago they resorted to slaughtering of animals in the national park to feed the population!) ... Do you count that as racism? Black population of Rhodesia under the "racist" govt was considered one of the most literate on the continent ... Is that racism? Crime was almost zero (as opposed to today) ... Is that racism? I can go on and on ...

Let's see now... 5% of the population (whites) having 95% of the votes. Yes, I'd consider that discrimination. edit. Oh yeah and racism too.

Lt. James Anderson
11-03-2006, 07:39 PM
Does that "democracy" put food on the table, keep crime low and life bearable and constantly improving? I didn't think so ...

Yes, Hellfish, you're right. RLI was all white too.

Lt. James Anderson
11-03-2006, 07:44 PM
Let's see now... 5% of the population (whites) having 95% of the votes. Yes, I'd consider that discrimination. edit. Oh yeah and racism too.

... even if you die of hunger, AIDS, or crime ... after that "discrimination" is corrected?

Kaapeli
11-03-2006, 07:45 PM
Does that "democracy" put food on the table, keep crime low and life bearable and constantly improving? I didn't think so ...

Yes, Hellfish, you're right. RLI was all white too.

This is SO ironic that I don't even know WHERE to begin with you. I mean a person who fights for a democratic Iraq with equal rights for every group that in practice actually brings more crime and casualties than the previous regime that brought law, order and bread but with a harsh rule of oligarchy. But it must have been "better" when us whites we're the rulers, surely.

Hellfish
11-03-2006, 07:47 PM
Ok. You're absolutely right. It can't be democracy if they don't vote for colonialism and apartheid. I mean that's the African dream (TM).

No need to be a smartass. Seriously - where is the democracy you're talking about? Africa has had nearly half a century, collectively, to form stable and functional governments and how many have done so?

So you're saying that because Mugabe won a single election (1980) that's emminantly more important to the Zimbabwean people than a stable government, free press, functional economy, no fear of genocide (see what happened to the tribes that supported ZAPU instead of Mugabe's ZANU), and having enough food to eat?

Lt. James Anderson
11-03-2006, 07:50 PM
Did I say that? How can you compare Rhodesia to Iraq ?? The whites who lived over there were born and raised in that country ... In Iraq I fought for myself and my buddies ... You know, soldiers don't make high decisions ... and can't affect them in any way. Just doing you job, you know .... I never wronged anybody when I was over there.

Kaapeli
11-03-2006, 07:50 PM
No need to be a smartass. Seriously - where is the democracy you're talking about? Africa has had nearly half a century, collectively, to form stable and functional governments and how many have done so?

So you're saying that because Mugabe won a single election (1980) that's emminantly more important to the Zimbabwean people that a stable government, free press, functional economy, no fear of genocide (see what happened to the tribes that supported ZAPU instead of Mugabe's ZANU), and having enough food to eat?

Nope. I'm saying both options were and still are bollocks.
And in time I hope the Africans will learn like we did. Just look at how many phases of conflict our way of life has went so far.

Lt. James Anderson
11-03-2006, 07:53 PM
Nope. I'm saying both options were and still are bollocks.
And in time I hope the Africans will learn like we did. Just look at how many phases of conflict our way of life has went so far.

What do thy have to learn? They have their own ways ... the things over there don't (and never will) function the same way as they do over here ...

Straker
11-03-2006, 07:53 PM
The simple fact is that Mugabe is quite plainly a lunatic who should have been dealt with in a terminal fashion some time ago before he was allowed to send a relatively succesful african nation down a black hole of poverty and hunger for no good reason.

A rascist (not so much as in SA IIRC) but relatively efficient minority government was replaced by a rascist (against the white minority and tribes that supported his opponents) corrupt inefficient shambles.

Sure the UK government could not be seen to be supporting a minority white government but we could have passively not opposed it and history may just show us that would have been the right decision in the long term. Perhaps the ANC would have been unbanned once the insurgency was weakened and the government realised a political means of defeating it may have been necessary.

Kaapeli
11-03-2006, 07:57 PM
Did I say that?

Well did you?


How can you compare Rhodesia to Iraq ??

Easily. One group in power oppressing the majority and telling them how it's for their own good. The story of practically every dictatorship or oligrachy.


The whites who lived over there were born and raised in that country ...

Well I'm pretty sure Saddam and the Sunni elite were also born and raised in Iraq.


In Iraq I fought for myself and my buddies ... You know, soldiers don't make high decisions ... and can't affect them in any way. Just doing you job, you know .... I never wronged anybody when I was over there.

For a simple do-as-you're-told grunt you have some rock-hard opinions on politics and how things should be done. Wrong time to draw on that particular defence.

Lt. James Anderson
11-03-2006, 07:59 PM
The simple fact is that Mugabe is quite plainly a lunatic who should have been dealt with in a terminal fashion some time ago before he was allowed to send a relatively succesful african nation down a black hole of poverty and hunger for no good reason.

He was supported by the West and East equally ... if I remember correctly the British were ready to go to war with Rhodesia over it ???

Lt. James Anderson
11-03-2006, 08:02 PM
For a simple do-as-you're-told grunt you have some rock-hard opinions on politics and how things should be done. Wrong time to draw on that particular defence.

Well, I never said I didn't have my opinion ... but the fact is as a soldier you can not affect any of it directly (or in any other way) ... come back alive and in one piece, that's the name of the game ...

Hellfish
11-03-2006, 08:03 PM
Nope. I'm saying both options were and still are bollocks.
And in time I hope the Africans will learn like we did. Just look at how many phases of conflict our way of life has went so far.

So what options were/are there?

Kaapeli
11-03-2006, 08:08 PM
So what options were/are there?

Pushing and pulling them as hard as we can towards "The Right Way" (TM) without oppressing these poor clueless folk. They'll be having some serious bumps on the road but you can't have real development and realization without them; I mean look at OUR history.

siberian tiger
11-03-2006, 08:19 PM
I have the impression that Portugal also suport Rhodesia until 1974 (year of the end of the fascist government and the Colonial War). At least some of the Allouette III used by Rhodesian Security Forces were ours.

Hellfish
11-03-2006, 08:35 PM
Yes, Portugal and Rhodesia had mutual security interests and there were some exchange and security programs before '74.

Boina verde
11-03-2006, 09:00 PM
The Portuguese Paras had men that could see if someone had past throw the area, how many men and how long they had past. They were amazing and very effective. They learn that stuff with the Rhodesians.

Lancero
11-04-2006, 12:40 PM
Here's a good example of how democracy works in Africa, this case Zimbabwe. A good read (even tought its from 2002).

http://www.newyorker.com/printables/fact/020603fa_fact1

csqnsas
11-05-2006, 09:27 AM
Siberian Tiger,

I really want to know where you found out the the Porkers gave the Rhodies a few Allouette's.

The SA gov did until the USA put the squeeze on them (as the USA was covertly supporting the SA in SWA and Angola) .

The situation in iraq bares no resemblance to that of Rhodesia. Not one thing is even remotely close.

IrishGuard
11-05-2006, 03:44 PM
My uncle edd was a traker in the rhodesian war with the B.S.A.P. anti-terrorist. and had many contacts ( he's also mentioned in a book he showed me but cant remember the name ) I used to argue with him that britain wasnt obliged to assist since they claimed independence from us. He argued that since they are all ex-pats and thinks we betrayed them to a commie movement. I spent my childhood living in zimbabwe under mugabe and there was no racism like S.A. / I now agree western foreign policy in the case of zimbabwe failed and destoyed the breadbasket of africa by supporting a despot loony! Also most service personel were ex-paras etc anyway.

siberian tiger
11-05-2006, 06:09 PM
Siberian Tiger,

I really want to know where you found out the the Porkers gave the Rhodies a few Allouette's.

The SA gov did until the USA put the squeeze on them (as the USA was covertly supporting the SA in SWA and Angola) .

The situation in iraq bares no resemblance to that of Rhodesia. Not one thing is even remotely close.

http://aeroflt.users.netlink.co.uk/waf/aa-africa/zim/zim-af_current_inventory.htm

PELEIDES
11-05-2006, 06:14 PM
Whoa, where do you see a democracy anywhere north of South Africa?


Mali is a democracy.

siberian tiger
11-05-2006, 06:22 PM
The Portuguese Paras had men that could see if someone had past throw the area, how many men and how long they had past. They were amazing and very effective. They learn that stuff with the Rhodesians.

I have a book about the portuguese air force in the colonial war and because the paratroopers were a part of the of the air force they talk a little about them, in one part it is said that a COIN Center were formed in northern Angola to improve battle tactics between the paratroopers and Air Force helicopters, i belive we heven used one of Rhodesian most famos tactics i thing it was called Fire Force but we called Pirate Force or something like that, it was 2 armed paratroopers in each side of the helicopter and one in the middle grabing their belts to preventing them from falling.
In Mozambique we also used a unit called GEPC (Grupos Especiais de Pisteiros de Combate / Combat Tracker Special Groups) i wouldn`t be suprised if they were also of Rhodesian influence, since they were so famous for their tracking hability.

Lancero
11-05-2006, 07:22 PM
Siberian Tiger,

I really want to know where you found out the the Porkers gave the Rhodies a few Allouette's.

The SA gov did until the USA put the squeeze on them (as the USA was covertly supporting the SA in SWA and Angola) .

The situation in iraq bares no resemblance to that of Rhodesia. Not one thing is even remotely close.


http://aeroflt.users.netlink.co.uk/waf/aa-africa/zim/zim-af_current_inventory.htm


http://www.a2oxford.info/pages/rhodesia/images/military34.jpg

http://www.a2oxford.info/pages/rhodesia/images/military09.jpg

http://www.stormfront.org/whitehistory/hwr56iv_files/chopper.jpg

http://home.iprimus.com.au/rob_rickards/images/ian26.jpg

siberian tiger
11-05-2006, 08:12 PM
19 ex-Portuguese AF examples abandoned in Mozambique after independence.

The full text is here

http://aeroflt.users.netlink.co.uk/waf/aa-africa/zim/alouette3.htm

FAP means Força Aérea Portuguesa (Portuguese Air Force)

Col. Psycho
11-08-2006, 03:06 PM
Rhodesia was dropped by South Africa and the USA. The USA is a fickle ally, that has been my experience.

i dont think so. South Africa still helped out Rhodesia far more than any other country did at the time, with maybe the exception of the israelis who helped too. South africa was also in the same predicament, but not on such a large scale. Read up on the bush war and you'll know what im talking about.

Col. Psycho
11-08-2006, 03:15 PM
You see it in the SA? LOL .... That's a bad joke.

For the record, although the ANC seems to have a grip over the nation, and corruption is rife, yes, i'd say that South Africa is probably the most democratic country in africa at the moment.

Mugabe never wanted a free and fair zimbabwe, or a democratic country, he wanted to control something his way, and he saw fit to screw up what Zimbabwe had going - which was a stable government, low crime rates, literate populace, good economy, and a very respectable military. Now, look at zimbabwe, and you'll see a scar on the face of africa. any of you can try and justify your arguement that rhodesia was a racist place, fine, say that. but at the end of the day, at least it was once a proud nation, and black people werent openly prosecuted for being black. Today, if you are white and own a successful farm, you will be kicked out so the farm can come under control of the 15 - 20 year old "veterans of the great war". Its all bull****, and it saddens me. As a british citizen with ties to south africa and rhodesia, i feel sad to see what two great countries are turning into, or have turned into.

Make no mistake, i hate racism in its forms, but destroying everything about a country and reversing the roles is not the way you sort such problems out. Mugabe needs to be removed and a fair and free government elected. If the US feels like starting another war, maybe they should march into Zimbabwe and fix thier crap up. By the way, i was being sarcastic there.


edit: my great-grandfather also helped train the original selous scouts, or at least was one of the selectors. I'll see if i can find any concrete information on this.

ElHombre
11-08-2006, 03:36 PM
For those interested, 'Strategy and Tactics' magazine just had an issue out about the Rhodesian War, issue 238.

The South African Border War was detailed in issue 235.

Lancero
11-08-2006, 03:58 PM
i dont think so. South Africa still helped out Rhodesia far more than any other country did at the time, with maybe the exception of the israelis who helped too. South africa was also in the same predicament, but not on such a large scale. Read up on the bush war and you'll know what im talking about.


Are you discussing the independence times (mid 60's till the portuguese revolution), or later when it became zimbabwe?

Col. Psycho
11-08-2006, 04:11 PM
Are you discussing the independence times (mid 60's till the portuguese revolution), or later when it became zimbabwe?



I forgot to mention that the ports also helped out rhodesia alot, i apologise for this. i was referring extensively to the mid 70's until the collapse, where rhodesia was very heavily isolated and equipment and aid only came from a few countries, namely south africa, israel and portugal. i just found that the comment made about south africa abandoning rhodesia was insulting and a load of bull****. sure, the south africans might have turned thier back on rhodesia in the public light, but under the table there was always supplies going to and fro. and the SADF helped rhodesian forces and vice-versa when coming to border patrols and anti-insurgent activities.

On a different note, the Coalition could take a view examples from the equipment used by the SADF and the Rhodie's back then - i.e mineproof designs and deflective V-shaped hulls as seen on the Buffel and Casspir as well as other trucks, etc.