Are the Kidnappings a sign of desperation tactics ?

[Kilgor]

Thoughts ?

[FallenAngel]

Yes, and after bombing the Red Cross a few months back, I can't see how they could stoop any lower.

[Korth]

The Islamic militants had success with the taking of hostages in the US embassy in Iran and later on in Beruit, Lebanon.

That Western governments had negotiated with the hostage takers has encouraged future attempts by terrorists to take hostages. They will continue to take more and more hostages while Western governments continue to negotiate with them.

Better that the Western governments do not negotiate so as to discourage the terrorists from taking more hostages.

[mustamato]

Desperation? Please.

The situation in Iraq is in the spotlight now, everything that happens is on
the news. And there is elections in US soon, if I were a Iraqi insurgent I would
like Bush to loose, and the only way they can affect that is to make the war
unpopular in US. From that point of view they are not failing atleast.

[Seoulstriker]

The taking of hostages is an extremely desparate move. They can't force the Iraqis to fight against the US so they have to take hostages to try to force countries out. It's all very weak on their part and they'll be finished soon enough.

[Romulus]

Desperation? Please.

The situation in Iraq is in the spotlight now, everything that happens is on
the news. And there is elections in US soon, if I were a Iraqi insurgent I would
like Bush to loose, and the only way they can affect that is to make the war
unpopular in US. From that point of view they are not failing atleast.

Spoken like a true Sadr mouthpiece.

[duck]

After 9/11, the Arab world was watching US and other Western reaction very closely, as was much of the liberal media in the Occident. The Bush administration, for all its pro-Israel bias, handled the situation remarkably well and did not allow any anti-Arab or anti-Moslem sentiment to spread out.

Now it's interesting to see how the same Arab and Moslem world reacts to racist attacks on foreigners in Iraq. If the victims would have been Moslems in a Christian/Jewish/Buddhist country, the Moslem community would be seething with anger and revenge plans. Is it really possible to portray the Iraqi criminals as freedom fighters and martyrs battling the Zionist Occupiers?

[RomanS]

its their thing.

Look at Chechens.

[Beowulf]

okay, that bird dog thing is freaking WEIRD

[RomanS]

LOL

i want a pet like that

[Korth]

The terrorist are taking hostages because it has worked for them over the years. They will continue to take hostages for as long as they gain from it.

If Western governments wish for these Islamic terrorists to stop taking hostages, then they should refuse to negotiate with terrorists.

[Ichhabe]

The terrorist are taking hostages because it has worked for them over the years. They will continue to take hostages for as long as they gain from it.

If Western governments wish for these Islamic terrorists to stop taking hostages, then they should refuse to negotiate with terrorists.

You maybe whistlening a different tune the day you are forced in front of a camera with screaming terrorists around you.

[LordHalbert]

I think it's time to unleash the secret international counter terrorist elite special forces - a.ka. Rainbow Six.

These guys can save the hostages !!!!

http://www.deviarts.com/RavenShield.jpg

I have an SA80, god knows why, it'll probably fail when I need it the most or fall to pieces !!

The guy at left has an HK UMP with C mag - good for close in combat.

The guy at top has an AUG with C mag as well.

The guy on my right has a 21E machine gun.

I've assembled quite an impressive little squad here.

The plan:

Create a diversion, may be bomb some place close.

Fly in at night with choppers, kill the terrorists scums guarding the hostages - all of us have silenced HK Mk 23 pistols, Flash Bangs, Tear Gas, and Frag Grenades.

We'll nab the hostages and chopper out !!

Yay !!!

Well, that's how I would do it :)

[Brozozo]

If I were you I'd consider CAS support from Super Cobras and maybe A-10s and Spectres if **** really hits the fan....

[Korth]

The terrorist are taking hostages because it has worked for them over the years. They will continue to take hostages for as long as they gain from it.

If Western governments wish for these Islamic terrorists to stop taking hostages, then they should refuse to negotiate with terrorists.

You maybe whistlening a different tune the day you are forced in front of a camera with screaming terrorists around you.

Irrelevent. Negotion with terrorists will only encourage them to continue taking more and more hostages, thus putting more innocents at risk.

Besides, I would not allow myself to be taken prisoner. Especially not after viewing the photographs of the Islamic terrorists cutting the throats of their Russian prisoners in Chechnia.

[Ichhabe]

Besides, I would not allow myself to be taken prisoner. Especially not after viewing the photographs of the Islamic terrorists cutting the throats of their Russian prisoners in Chechnia.

Neither would I. :D

[dacanadianbomb]

Well one has to see that not negotiating has had some serious flaws in the past. Like lots of dead bodies. Negotiating is also bloody hard with someone that doesnt want money. Theres probably a good chance if you offer him a case full of money and a chopper that they will kill a hostage just to show you how annoyed they are.
Taking hostages is tactical although futile because these people are not making a logical demand for the hostage.
LIke the japanese hostages. The cost of letting them free ( withdrawal of japanese soldiers ) against 3 peoples lives is fairly unbalanced and therefor I dont think that any military will withdraw.No disrespect meant.

If they were to say they wanted something non-combat with a point behind it , then it would be discussable.

Oh yeah I dont think anyone thinks they will let themselves be taken hostage. But when your driving down a road and full-auto fire rips through your car , bringing it to a standstill , and you take a peak out of your door seeing ten-twenty people with weapons pointing at you , you probably wont want to get your ass-blown away.

[Korth]

Well one has to see that not negotiating has had some serious flaws in the past. Like lots of dead bodies.

The reason why the terrorists take hostages is because they expect to gain something from it. They will continue to take hostages for as long as it works to bring concessions from governments.

Don't negotiate with them and the terrorists will kill their prisoners, but they will soon cease taking more hostages when they have nothing to gain from it.

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

Don't negotiate with them and the terrorists will kill their prisoners, but they will soon cease taking more hostages when they have nothing to gain from it.
The taking of hostages also draws attention to the groups and the causes involved, even if the hostages are killed their actions can weaken the resolve of the public or government back home in many cases any publicity is good publicity with some of these people.

[Soulhunter]

For months, the US government is saying that the rise in violence is just a sign of the growing desperation of the insurgents! That's ridicilus and 100% spin!

Just look at the number of casualties that growing 'desperation' has caused until now! And it doesn't look like the country will be pacified until the US comes up with a new, real!, plan.

Impeach Bush.

[MEGR]

For months, the US government is saying that the rise in violence is just a sign of the growing desperation of the insurgents! That's ridicilus and 100% spin!

Just look at the number of casualties that growing 'desperation' has caused until now! And it doesn't look like the country will be pacified until the US comes up with a new, real!, plan.

Impeach Bush.

Impeaching Bush would do absolutely nothing to lower casualties... Plus why do you care if he's gone or not.. Worry about your own problems, and worry about what your country is doing.

[Soulhunter]

It wouldn't lower the casualties right now, that's true. But a new, more realistic, government could improve the situation in many ways. But if the US continues to execute their We-know-it-all-and-can-never-be-wrong 'plan' like this, June 30th will be a disaster.

But I guess that'll only prove once more that the insurgents are increasingly desperate ...

[Korth]

Bush is doing fine and the Marines are kicking Arab ass in Fallujah.

Of course the socialists hate Bush for making the United Nations irrelevent. That is why I am glad Bush is president of the USA.

[Ichhabe]

Bush is doing fine and the Marines are kicking Arab ass in Fallujah.

Of course the socialists hate Bush for making the United Nations irrelevent. That is why I am glad Bush is president of the USA.

Just a quick question: Do you actually think that Bush can't do anything wrong?

Curious here you see.

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

Bush is doing fine and the Marines are kicking Arab ass in Fallujah.

Of course the socialists hate Bush for making the United Nations irrelevent. That is why I am glad Bush is president of the USA.
Mmm....I can't put my finger on it but your phraseology seems very familiar Korth.

[dacanadianbomb]

What does President bush and casualties have anything to do with whether taking hostages is a desperation tactic.

Korth have you seen any goverments give way lately to hostage takers?
The last time I heard the japanese are still in Irak.

Publicity they will get yes, but not neccessarily the publicity they are wanting.

[MEGR]

Bush is doing fine and the Marines are kicking Arab ass in Fallujah.

Of course the socialists hate Bush for making the United Nations irrelevent. That is why I am glad Bush is president of the USA.

Just a quick question: Do you actually think that Bush can't do anything wrong?

Curious here you see.

Trust me Bush can certainly do wrong. Look at some of his domestic policies...I support him because we (the US&friends) are at war (whether we like it or not), and he is our president.

[Ichhabe]

Bush is doing fine and the Marines are kicking Arab ass in Fallujah.

Of course the socialists hate Bush for making the United Nations irrelevent. That is why I am glad Bush is president of the USA.

Just a quick question: Do you actually think that Bush can't do anything wrong?

Curious here you see.

Trust me Bush can certainly do wrong. Look at some of his domestic policies...I support him because we (the US&friends) are at war (whether we like it or not), and he is our president.


That is ok Dev. But it was Korth I asked. It seems like he has tunnel vision.

[Korth]

Bush is doing fine and the Marines are kicking Arab ass in Fallujah.

Of course the socialists hate Bush for making the United Nations irrelevent. That is why I am glad Bush is president of the USA.

Just a quick question: Do you actually think that Bush can't do anything wrong?

Curious here you see.

Bush is not a real conservative, but he is still better than the democrats (socialists).

That is he so hated by the socialists and the UN supporters means that he is doing something right.

[MEGR]

Bush is doing fine and the Marines are kicking Arab ass in Fallujah.

Of course the socialists hate Bush for making the United Nations irrelevent. That is why I am glad Bush is president of the USA.

Just a quick question: Do you actually think that Bush can't do anything wrong?

Curious here you see.

Bush is not a real conservative, but he is still better than the democrats (socialists).

I agree.

[shorty]

Yes, it is a desperation move. I think that they are just trying to create attention to themselves so that more people will join their cause. Pull everyone out and then *OOPS* I dropped a Tac-Nuke...........Sorry innocents.....oh well......Oh, I think mustamato is Sadr......... rofl rofl

[Soulhunter]

it's amazing how people want to believe in spin just so they can pretend everything is going as planned and that they themselves are infallible.

but they'll wake up one day. let's hope it's no too late then.

[cold0]

Desperation? Please.

The situation in Iraq is in the spotlight now, everything that happens is on
the news. And there is elections in US soon, if I were a Iraqi insurgent I would
like Bush to loose, and the only way they can affect that is to make the war
unpopular in US. From that point of view they are not failing atleast.

I generally disagree with mustamato but here he has point; I don't see any "desparation" in taking hostages and I fear that the insurgents become every day bolter in this kind of "tactics".

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

Bush is not a real conservative, but he is still better than the democrats (socialists).
Korth as a German? how did you come to the conclusion that the US Democrats are socialists there might be one or two with those leanings but they do not seem like socialists to me. Compare them with European socialists they seem pretty right wing. I am desperate to find out how you came to this conclusion. ;)

[Truthsayer]

I'm also interested in why americans call liberals for left-wing.

Wanting a small goverment and the ultimate freedom of choice is right-wing according to me...

[Trident-za]

I don't think the taking of hostages is a sign of desperation - if anything it's a sign that the bastards are getting cocky! I don't agree with the tactic from a moral point of view, but it certainly does attract world media attention - and it's showing thousands of islamic fundamentalists how vulnerable westerners really are :(

[cut]

I'm also interested in why americans call liberals for left-wing.

Wanting a small goverment and the ultimate freedom of choice is right-wing according to me...

because they don't have a left wing, liberal is as far as they go, that's why so many seem to confuse socialist and communist

[duck]

Small government is libertarian, not right-wing. Actually the paleo-conservatives and socialists share many views, mainly on restricting people's choices "for the sake of community".

[EchoSierra2]

Bush is doing fine and the Marines are kicking Arab ass in Fallujah.

Of course the socialists hate Bush for making the United Nations irrelevent. That is why I am glad Bush is president of the USA.

OooRAH!

[EchoSierra2]

Besides, I would not allow myself to be taken prisoner. Especially not after viewing the photographs of the Islamic terrorists cutting the throats of their Russian prisoners in Chechnia.

You saw that video too? I feel the same way too brother.

[EchoSierra2]

Trust me Bush can certainly do wrong. Look at some of his domestic policies...I support him because we (the US&friends) are at war (whether we like it or not), and he is our president.

Hear, Hear. wether we like him or not.

[Sabre]

Terrorists, by definition, strive to create terror.

Taking hostages is just another means to an end. The very fact that western countries are so concerned about the safety of their citizens, and terrorists are not, presents to them many ways in which to cause problems for western governments.

Islamic terrorists feel that they are duty bound by their religion to kill 'infidels' wherever they are. They are not bothered by who they kill or how. They will capture or kill civilians in order to force the hand of western powers, they are not stupid, they know that if they keep doing this the west will not be able to accept the number of losses.

'Freedom Fighters' may not be islamic militants, but still want the western forces out of their country. They may be willing to kill civillians as they can rationalise it against the large numbers of Iraqi civillians killed by the coalition. Again, they're not stupid, the realise how to 'work' public opinion both in Iraq and the west. They know that the coalition will be less able to keep control if the country destabilises further. Therefore, they are willing to plant bombs and kill their own countrymen to try and set off one faction against another, thereby destabilising the country, in order to force the coalition out.

[EchoSierra2]

Terrorists, by definition, strive to create terror.

Taking hostages is just another means to an end. The very fact that western countries are so concerned about the safety of their citizens, and terrorists are not, presents to them many ways in which to cause problems for western governments.

Islamic terrorists feel that they are duty bound by their religion to kill 'infidels' wherever they are. They are not bothered by who they kill or how. They will capture or kill civilians in order to force the hand of western powers, they are not stupid, they know that if they keep doing this the west will not be able to accept the number of losses.

'Freedom Fighters' may not be islamic militants, but still want the western forces out of their country. They may be willing to kill civillians as they can rationalise it against the large numbers of Iraqi civillians killed by the coalition. Again, they're not stupid, the realise how to 'work' public opinion both in Iraq and the west. They know that the coalition will be less able to keep control if the country destabilises further. Therefore, they are willing to plant bombs and kill their own countrymen to try and set off one faction against another, thereby destabilising the country, in order to force the coalition out.

Well put.

[MaDuce]

I think it's time to unleash the secret international counter terrorist elite special forces - a.ka. Rainbow Six.

These guys can save the hostages !!!!

http://www.deviarts.com/RavenShield.jpg

I have an SA80, god knows why, it'll probably fail when I need it the most or fall to pieces !!

The guy at left has an HK UMP with C mag - good for close in combat.

The guy at top has an AUG with C mag as well.

The guy on my right has a 21E machine gun.

I've assembled quite an impressive little squad here.

The plan:

Create a diversion, may be bomb some place close.

Fly in at night with choppers, kill the terrorists scums guarding the hostages - all of us have silenced HK Mk 23 pistols, Flash Bangs, Tear Gas, and Frag Grenades.

We'll nab the hostages and chopper out !!

Yay !!!

Well, that's how I would do it :)
It is RAINBOW. Rainbow Sx is nthe name of the book cuase Clark is none as the Six. Terrorists are alwaysa desperate ppl.

[ExtraT]

You people don't understand squat.

Looting and hostage taking is an ancient Arab sport. Read up on history of the Middle East - 19-20th century - being taken hostage was the premier danger for travelers in the area. For Beduins, for example, looting and hostage taking was pretty much the main source of income.

So, all that is just a traditional way of getting what they want. I don't see any desperation in it - just an old tradition of acceptable behavior.

[Ichhabe]

Bush is doing fine and the Marines are kicking Arab ass in Fallujah.

Of course the socialists hate Bush for making the United Nations irrelevent. That is why I am glad Bush is president of the USA.

OooRAH!

and




Besides, I would not allow myself to be taken prisoner. Especially not after viewing the photographs of the Islamic terrorists cutting the throats of their Russian prisoners in Chechnia.


You saw that video too? I feel the same way too brother.

and




Trust me Bush can certainly do wrong. Look at some of his domestic policies...I support him because we (the US&friends) are at war (whether we like it or not), and he is our president.


Hear, Hear. wether we like him or not.

and



Sabre wrote:
Terrorists, by definition, strive to create terror.

Taking hostages is just another means to an end. The very fact that western countries are so concerned about the safety of their citizens, and terrorists are not, presents to them many ways in which to cause problems for western governments.

Islamic terrorists feel that they are duty bound by their religion to kill 'infidels' wherever they are. They are not bothered by who they kill or how. They will capture or kill civilians in order to force the hand of western powers, they are not stupid, they know that if they keep doing this the west will not be able to accept the number of losses.

'Freedom Fighters' may not be islamic militants, but still want the western forces out of their country. They may be willing to kill civillians as they can rationalise it against the large numbers of Iraqi civillians killed by the coalition. Again, they're not stupid, the realise how to 'work' public opinion both in Iraq and the west. They know that the coalition will be less able to keep control if the country destabilises further. Therefore, they are willing to plant bombs and kill their own countrymen to try and set off one faction against another, thereby destabilising the country, in order to force the coalition out.


Well put.


Do you have any independent thoughts at all? :D

[Haiw]

You people don't understand squat.

Looting and hostage taking is an ancient Arab sport. Read up on history of the Middle East - 19-20th century - being taken hostage was the premier danger for travelers in the area. For Beduins, for example, looting and hostage taking was pretty much the main source of income.

So, all that is just a traditional way of getting what they want. I don't see any desperation in it - just an old tradition of acceptable behavior.
No offense, but the Middle East doesn't exactely have a monopoly on taking hostages... :roll:

[He219]

You people don't understand squat.

Looting and hostage taking is an ancient Arab sport. Read up on history of the Middle East - 19-20th century - being taken hostage was the premier danger for travelers in the area. For Beduins, for example, looting and hostage taking was pretty much the main source of income.

So, all that is just a traditional way of getting what they want. I don't see any desperation in it - just an old tradition of acceptable behavior.
No offense, but the Middle East doesn't exactely have a monopoly on taking hostages... :roll:
It certainly seems to be the trademark of Islamic extremists worldwide, Haiw.

:|

[ExtraT]

No offense, but the Middle East doesn't exactely have a monopoly on taking hostages... :roll:

No, but it has a long and glorified trandition in taking hostages and bargaining for ransom. That's why I'm saying that this is not any sign of desperation at all - it's a traditional method of getting results.

[EchoSierra2]

Bush is doing fine and the Marines are kicking Arab ass in Fallujah.

Of course the socialists hate Bush for making the United Nations irrelevent. That is why I am glad Bush is president of the USA.

OooRAH!

and




Besides, I would not allow myself to be taken prisoner. Especially not after viewing the photographs of the Islamic terrorists cutting the throats of their Russian prisoners in Chechnia.


You saw that video too? I feel the same way too brother.

and




Trust me Bush can certainly do wrong. Look at some of his domestic policies...I support him because we (the US&friends) are at war (whether we like it or not), and he is our president.


Hear, Hear. wether we like him or not.

and



Sabre wrote:
Terrorists, by definition, strive to create terror.

Taking hostages is just another means to an end. The very fact that western countries are so concerned about the safety of their citizens, and terrorists are not, presents to them many ways in which to cause problems for western governments.

Islamic terrorists feel that they are duty bound by their religion to kill 'infidels' wherever they are. They are not bothered by who they kill or how. They will capture or kill civilians in order to force the hand of western powers, they are not stupid, they know that if they keep doing this the west will not be able to accept the number of losses.

'Freedom Fighters' may not be islamic militants, but still want the western forces out of their country. They may be willing to kill civillians as they can rationalise it against the large numbers of Iraqi civillians killed by the coalition. Again, they're not stupid, the realise how to 'work' public opinion both in Iraq and the west. They know that the coalition will be less able to keep control if the country destabilises further. Therefore, they are willing to plant bombs and kill their own countrymen to try and set off one faction against another, thereby destabilising the country, in order to force the coalition out.


Well put.


Do you have any independent thoughts at all? :DYes but why waste it on you :P

[BlackRain]

I think its a culture thing. The Barbary coast pirates used to engage in the same thing.

Taking hostages (especially noncombantants, civilians, women, aid workers) is cowardly. In my opinion, hostage taking is not something a real man or fighting man would do.

Rule One: Don't negotiate with hostage takers and never pay ransom.
Rule Two: Kill Hostage Takers and make example of them to discourage further acts.



Before the United States obtained its independence in the American Revolution, 1775-83, American merchant ships and sailors had been protected from the ravages of the North African pirates by the naval and diplomatic power of Great Britain. British naval power and the tribute or subsidies Britain paid to the piratical states protected American vessels and crews. During the Revolution, the ships of the United States were protected by the 1778 alliance with France, which required the French nation to protect "American vessels and effects against all violence, insults, attacks, or depredations, on the part of the said Princes and States of Barbary or their subjects."

After the United States won its independence in the treaty of 1783, it had to protect its own commerce against dangers such as the Barbary pirates. As early as 1784 Congress followed the tradition of the European shipping powers and appropriated $80,000 as tribute to the Barbary states, directing its ministers in Europe, Thomas Jefferson and John Adams, to begin negotiations with them. Trouble began the next year, in July 1785, when Algerians captured two American ships and the dey of Algiers held their crews of twenty-one people for a ransom of nearly $60,000.

Thomas Jefferson, United States minister to France, opposed the payment of tribute, as he later testified in words that have a particular resonance today. In his autobiography Jefferson wrote that in 1785 and 1786 he unsuccessfully "endeavored to form an association of the powers subject to habitual depredation from them. I accordingly prepared, and proposed to their ministers at Paris, for consultation with their governments, articles of a special confederation." Jefferson argued that "The object of the convention shall be to compel the piratical States to perpetual peace." Jefferson prepared a detailed plan for the interested states. "Portugal, Naples, the two Sicilies, Venice, Malta, Denmark and Sweden were favorably disposed to such an association," Jefferson remembered, but there were "apprehensions" that England and France would follow their own paths, "and so it fell through."

Paying the ransom would only lead to further demands, Jefferson argued in letters to future presidents John Adams, then America's minister to Great Britain, and James Monroe, then a member of Congress. As Jefferson wrote to Adams in a July 11, 1786, letter, "I acknolege [sic] I very early thought it would be best to effect a peace thro' the medium of war." Paying tribute will merely invite more demands, and even if a coalition proves workable, the only solution is a strong navy that can reach the pirates, Jefferson argued in an August 18, 1786, letter to James Monroe: "The states must see the rod; perhaps it must be felt by some one of them. . . . Every national citizen must wish to see an effective instrument of coercion, and should fear to see it on any other element than the water. A naval force can never endanger our liberties, nor occasion bloodshed; a land force would do both." "From what I learn from the temper of my countrymen and their tenaciousness of their money," Jefferson added in a December 26, 1786, letter to the president of Yale College, Ezra Stiles, "it will be more easy to raise ships and men to fight these pirates into reason, than money to bribe them."

[EchoSierra2]

In all seriousness, you want my thoughts? I do not think it is desperateness. I see it this way. Having grown up in the streets of East Harlem and being involved in less than stellar affiliations and activities. I see these people as street fighters. In street fighting there are not rules. If you are fighting someone that is bigger and better than you and you see a garbage can on the corner and by all means pick up the damn garbage can and use it. I am not condoning these scumbags’ actions. If I could be there with the Marines I would be the first on line. But you have to call like you see it. They have a different culture and different mentality. In my opinion they are not going to understand until we fight fire with fire. Unfortunately we are going to have to stoop to their level.

[BlackRain]

Unfortunately we are going to have to stoop to their level.

Yep! Roger That.

Otherwise, we are not better than our enemy.