Students at Calif. College ban Pledge of Allegiance

[annihilation]

http://today.*******.com/news/articlenews.aspx?type=domesticNews&storyid=2006-11-10T021338Z_01_N09494500_RTRUKOC_0_US-LIFE-PLEDGE.xml&src=rss&rpc=22



By Dan Whitcomb
LOS ANGELES (*******) - Student leaders at a California college have touched off a furor by banning the Pledge of Allegiance at their meetings, saying they see no reason to publicly swear loyalty to God and the U.S. government.
The move by Orange Coast College student trustees, the latest clash over patriotism and religion in American schools, has infuriated some of their classmates -- prompting one young woman to loudly recite the pledge in front of the board on Wednesday night in defiance of the rule.
"America is the one thing I'm passionate about and I can't let them take that away from me," 18-year-old political science major Christine Zoldos told *******.
"The fact that they have enough power to ban one of the most valued traditions in America is just horrible," Zoldos said, adding she would attend every board meeting to salute the flag.
The move was lead by three recently elected student trustees, who ran for office wearing revolutionary-style berets and said they do not believe in publicly swearing an oath to the American flag and government at their school. One student trustee voted against the measure, which does not apply to other student groups or campus meetings.
The ban follows a 2002 ruling by a federal appeals court in San Francisco that said forcing school children to recite the pledge was unconstitutional because of the phrase "under God." The U.S. Supreme Court struck down the ruling on procedural grounds but left the door open for another challenge.
"That ('under God') part is sort of offensive to me," student trustee Jason Bell, who proposed the ban, told *******. "I am an atheist and a socialist, and if you know your history, you know that 'under God' was inserted during the McCarthy era and was directly designed to destroy my ideology."
Bell said the ban largely came about because the trustees didn't want to publicly vow loyalty to the American government before their meetings. "Loyalty ought to be something the government earns through performance, not through reciting a pledge," he said.
Martha Parham, a spokeswoman for the Coast Community College District, said her office had no standing on the student board and took no position on the flag salute ban.
"If their personal belief is that they don't want to say the Pledge of Allegiance, the district certainly isn't going to dictate what they do," she said.
More than 28,000 students attend the community college, located in conservative Orange County, California, south of Los Angeles.
© ******* 2006. All Rights Reserved.

[seraosha]

What kind of student group is this?
Community college...and let me see if I get this right...

Beret wearing communists and athiests meeting at a community college, some kind of student group?

Who cares. Once these asshats get out in the real world their tune will change...let them try getting hired at their local mickey-d's spouting their trendy little "Che" pap.

[Hunterhr]

They can leave now.

[Violet Fashion by Mindy]

Beret wearing communists and athiests meeting at a community college, some kind of student group?



You make that sound like a bad thing.

[digrar]

Look them up mate you might be able to join. ;)

[dj_1911]

Ah yes, the fashionable pop icon of murder.
http://www.thedissidentfrogman.com/common/merchandising/el_miche.gif

[xEDGEx]

Yeah I just saw this on Yahoo.

This is pure bull man.

Don't want to be part of America? Don't get any ****ing money from the government!

It's a shame california is such a beautiful state.

[ed316]

Typical of young people. Eff the system I'm cool.

[talib_killa34]

Bunch of traitors!

[Laconian]

Good. Let's pull all FEDERAL aid from the school and any student not wanting to say the pledge.

[Aerosoul]

Good. Let's pull all FEDERAL aid from the school
They should.

[Secret Squirrel]

Good. Let's pull all FEDERAL aid from the school and any student not wanting to say the pledge.

or at least pull all the money that God gave them.

[c46thva]

We may not like what they are doing but we live in a free country where blind allegiance is not something we should demand of anyone. Frankly this is just the sort of thing I signed up to protect. And yes I think they are bunch of ungrateful so and so's. But what do you expect from California college students. The freedom to express contempt for authority is a great and powerful thing, even when its done by a bunch of sniveling jerks.

[Weasel]

Is such a pledge of allegiance ususal at US universuties? Never heard of this.

[Hunterhr]

Is such a pledge of allegiance ususal at US universuties? Never heard of this.

Nope. Have yet to say the Pledge of Allegiance during my three year University career.

So I have no idea why they would arbitrarily ban it.

[cetnik]

Yes a take classes at the College .Orange coast.
Off topic but the girls there are sooooo! HOT! I mean there are more hot chicks here than ugly no joke.I think the refusal to do the Pledge of allegiance is stupid personall

[szr]

Is such a pledge of allegiance ususal at US universuties? Never heard of this.
Never heard the pledge of allegiance once while in college. Sounds like it's just a bunch of kids going out of their way to make a statement. They're the soldiers of a war that exists only in their own imaginations.

[Aerosoul]

hmm, i didn't think of that.

[Creeper]

Never heard the pledge of allegiance once while in college. Sounds like it's just a bunch of kids going out of their way to make a statement. They're the soldiers of a war that exists only in their own imaginations.

I can recall different pledges waaaay back in 'elementry' school,, after several frail attempts to 'graduate' out of that scene,,,, the hand over heart kinda petered out thu middle/high school.

Definitely a Political Statement - attention bitches thats all.

[Hyllus]

or at least pull all the money that God gave them.
What "God"? "God" gives you money? Hmmm you must be preety lucky... Well, we who do not believe in bs about "God" and religion have to earn money and not wait for god to give it to us. You guys are full of **** and so is the "under God" part in the pledge. It makes me sick everytime I hear it. Since we are a "christian nation"... I know you guys down the south have a different mentality, but this is my personal opinion. You guys should really grow up and realize that there's no "God". This is the reason why we're in deepsh*t in Iraq. This idiotic southern mentality about our "christian nation".

[Secret Squirrel]

I was being sarcastic.:D

[Hyllus]

I was being sarcastic.:D
I wasn't talking only about that. It was more like a general response to the people who say that was wrong.

[Weasel]

Just for my curiosity: Do you sing the national anthem at school or college in the US and A?

[Aerosoul]

In the US, the national anthem is usually only at sporting events. High school, college, and pro.

[Weasel]

In the US, the national anthem is usually only at sporting events. High school, college, and pro.

Thanks!!!!!!

[jj_bosco13]

What "God"? "God" gives you money? Hmmm you must be preety lucky... Well, we who do not believe in bs about "God" and religion have to earn money and not wait for god to give it to us. You guys are full of **** and so is the "under God" part in the pledge. It makes me sick everytime I hear it. Since we are a "christian nation"... I know you guys down the south have a different mentality, but this is my personal opinion. You guys should really grow up and realize that there's no "God". This is the reason why we're in deepsh*t in Iraq. This idiotic southern mentality about our "christian nation".

Tell that to the billions of people around the world who believe in god. What makes you think the whole world will be better without religion, religion gives many people meaning and hope in their lives. Your just a selfish person trying to take away the only thing that gives many people hope, so STFU about your antireligious comments

[kinsella]

This is the reason why we're in deepsh*t in Iraq. This idiotic southern mentality about our "christian nation".

So we are in Iraq becuase of our beleif in God? Thought is was for oil. Oh, wait, that is a different group of nuts. If we were in Iraq becuae of religious reasons, don' t you think that we wouldn't be as concerned with civilians dying and what not? We would just say it was Gods' will and move on. I dont recall our troops yeling "God id Great" while attacking.

Saying that the "southern mentality" is idotic only shows how little you undersstand the culture of the US. The bible belt is in the mid west, not the south. Ever wonder why they call it that?

90% of Americans say they beleive in a god. Does that make 90% not as grown up as you, I think not.

The way you feel about not beleiving in a god is the way people that beleive in one feel. One is right and tthe other is wrong/idiots. Calling people idiots or childish for their beleives puts you on the same road as the extremists.

I beleive is God, just have not figured out all the details yet. I do not think your idiot for not beleiving, or that others that do beleive are stupid cause they think they have him all figured out.

If you really think that those that beleive in a God as so childish, then stay out of the US and stay in Tirana. Why be someplace where the people bother you so much?

[Creeper]

What "God"? "God" gives you money? Hmmm you must be preety lucky... Well, we who do not believe in bs about "God" and religion have to earn money and not wait for god to give it to us. You guys are full of **** and so is the "under God" part in the pledge. It makes me sick everytime I hear it. Since we are a "christian nation"... I know you guys down the south have a different mentality, but this is my personal opinion. You guys should really grow up and realize that there's no "God". This is the reason why we're in deepsh*t in Iraq. This idiotic southern mentality about our "christian nation".


Since we are a "christian nation"... I know you guys down the south have a different mentality, but this is my personal opinion. Yes, these guys down here do have a different mentality. BUT, that difference does not make it WRONG. Consider the alternative: If Science or the One Creator spit out every man like yourself,,,,, how would this world this life be? Think about it. Some of the noteable US Military Service members were born and raised here in "South".
>Go screw yourself.

Here is the "Statement of the Week:"

You guys should really grow up and realize that there's no "God". I am guessing that you are a "Advanced Man" in ur world, Plez elaboratethat statement: I am sitting down and waiting patiently to hear wisdom:,,,,,,,,,
>Go screw yourself.


This is the reason why we're in deepsh*t in Iraq. Go ahead,,, quit your "Day Job",, With that "expert" insight,,,I have a another position for U 2 Fill,,,
> Go screw yourself.


Last but not least effective:

This idiotic southern mentality about our "christian nation".
You certainly use your words constructively,,LMFAO!

On this day, a day to remember those who sacrifice, and devote their lives to a cause-belief greater than themselves,, This young man chose to point a finger at what is wrong with people diffrent than himself andd considers that those people are wrong, idiotic, foolish etc & etc..

Consider yourself lucky' to have an op-n, and the opportunity to voice it. My advice 2U is to keep in "check".

Lastely, as you walk-drive home, keep an eye over ur shoulder, look 4 warning sign,,keep you doors, windows shut and locked at nite.

Good Luck with that

[Hyllus]

So we are in Iraq becuase of our beleif in God? Thought is was for oil.

No man, we're in Iraq because of those WMDs which the president, from Texas (no wonder) said existed. That's why?


I dont recall our troops yeling "God id Great" while attacking.
What difference does it make? It's a clash between religions, and if there was no religion I don't think there would be so many idiotic and useless wars.


Saying that the "southern mentality" is idotic only shows how little you undersstand the culture of the US. The bible belt is in the mid west, not the south.
So what? Does it really mean that people in the South don't believe in it. This is the "southern mentality" I am talking about. Full of hatred and racism and in need of a reality check.

http://www.scvcamp2022.org/guardian/june04/flagpole/Confederate%20Flag%20011-1.jpeg



90% of Americans say they beleive in a god. Does that make 90% not as grown up as you, I think not.

According to who?



Calling people idiots or childish for their beleives puts you on the same road as the extremists.

I didn't call anyone idiot, I said their menatlity sucks.



I beleive is God, just have not figured out all the details yet. I do not think your idiot for not beleiving, or that others that do beleive are stupid cause they think they have him all figured out.


What if I say that I won 1 Billion dollars? Would you believe me? I don't think soo. You would want proofs and see it. How do you believe in someting you didn't see or that there is no proof of existence. You're like little kids in Nazi Germany who believed everything their leader said.



then sta out of the US and stay in Tirana.

Where I stay is none of your business. I am a US citizen and I have as much right as you to decide what goes on in this country, what's wrong and what's right. That's why I live in NY and not in a 1000 people town in Texas.


Some of the noteable US Military Service members were born and raised here in "South".

So what? I fail to see your point.


I am guessing that you are a "Advanced Man" in ur world, Plez elaboratethat statement: I am sitting down and waiting patiently to hear wisdom:,,,,,,,,,
I explained it a few rows up.


a day to remember those who sacrifice, and devote their lives to a cause-belief greater than themselves
Really? It's christmas already?


Consider yourself lucky' to have an op-n, and the opportunity to voice it. My advice 2U is to keep in "check".
Or else... what? If you think US is the only country in the world where people are allowed to have an opinion, you're totally wrong. There are many other countries where the freedom of speach is way more broad. Soo save the "lucky to have an opinion" cr*p.


Lastely, as you walk-drive home, keep an eye over ur shoulder, look 4 warning sign,,keep you doors, windows shut and locked at nite.Oh no, you're god is going to kill me. BTW if you see him anytime soon tell him to give George Bush what he deserves.

[Hunterhr]

What difference does it make? It's a clash between religions, and if there was no religion I don't think there would be so many idiotic and useless wars.

Oh yeah, those pesky world wars would have totally been prevented.

[fuzzyramirez]

Hyllus, I just want to say that i support what you're saying. Religious people in the US think athiests are devil worshipers. I can't tell you how many people have told me that I'm going to hell or that they hate me, all because I said that I didn't believe in god. You all keep your beliefs and I will keep mine.

[kinsella]

Ok, lets take this one by one.


No man, we're in Iraq because of those WMDs which the president, from Texas (no wonder) said existed. That's why?

That may be why we went in, not why we have stayed. My oil comment came from your assurtion that we are in deep **** cause of religion.



What difference does it make? It's a clash between religions, and if there was no religion I don't think there would be so many idiotic and useless wars.
It is not a religious war from our prospective. We are not fighting in the name of God, they are. Religion has been the cause of alot of wars, you may be right about not as many being fought if there were no religion. But then again, who is to say that another reason would not have filled in that gap.



So what? Does it really mean that people in the South don't believe in it. This is the "southern mentality" I am talking about. Full of hatred and racism and in need of a reality check.

http://www.scvcamp2022.org/guardian/june04/flagpole/Confederate%20Flag%20011-1.jpeg

Yes, folks in the south do have a beleife in God. Your point of the "southern mentality" was eluding to that the bulk of people beiliving in God were southern.
Having this picture is suppose to show what?? That they are racist? Maybe if they were in Klan gear I would buy that. Are you from the south, lived a good deal of your life in the south, or have family that live there? I know your not. How do I know, simple, anyone that has/is lived there can tell you that flag does not mean that one is racist. It has been held up by those that do not know better (like yourself) as a symbol of a long ago racists beleif. If you gonna start judging someone for holding a flag, how about the Hezbolla flag with an AK and the Koran on it? That seems to say alot more then a flag from a long ago failed revolationary movement with stars and bars on it. Im sure you have lots more to say about this flag. Not being one of the people that live in any area where it would be flown.

And the Bible belt. You pointed to the south as place where this "religious" mentalitiy is coming from. If the South were the place where the relgious beleifs were coming from, they would be the Bible Belt. It is called that becuase thats where ALOT of the religious people live. Again, your pointing things out, the South, to make a point about something. The place you point out, the south, is not indicitaive of the what your trying to point out, religious views.

So, you have misundertood a flag, and where the beleifs you are against are mainly located. Both showing that you are not understanding the culture of what you are attacking.



According to who?
https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/us.html#People
Religions:
Protestant 52%, Roman Catholic 24%, Mormon 2%, Jewish 1%, Muslim 1%, other 10%, none 10% (2002 est.)

Take away the 10% of the population that doesnt have a religion, and you would be left with................90% of the people beiliving in a God of some kind.

Im sure you can find other stats that will say roughly the samething. Go find them yourself. Better yet. Find some that say otherwise.



I didn't call anyone idiot, I said their menatlity sucks.

I know you guys down the south have a different mentality, but this is my personal opinion. You guys should really grow up and realize that there's no "God".
You are right when you said that you didnt call them an idiot. However, when taking in context, that is what you implied. You did call them childish, as shown in the bold underlined part of your post above.



What if I say that I won 1 Billion dollars? Would you believe me? I don't think soo. You would want proofs and see it. How do you believe in someting you didn't see or that there is no proof of existence. You're like little kids in Nazi Germany who believed everything their leader said.
That is why it called faith. This is the biggest thing most people, like myself, that do belive in a higher power, but also see the scientific advances that disspell some of the literal translations of the Bible, have to deal with.

And yes, we are just like natzi kids. We are going door to door and turning in those dirty Jews. Pointing out people in a crowd for the SS to take them away. We are just like that. as Creeper said: Go screw yourself. Comparing us to that is making the natzi's look better then they were, and us much worse.


Where I stay is none of your business. I am a US citizen and I have as much right as you to decide what goes on in this country, what's wrong and what's right. That's why I live in NY and not in a 1000 people town in Texas.
You may have the right to stay anywhere you wish. I wish you would take this right you seem to hold so dear and move to where people dont bother you.

As far as living in NY. More people live in mid sized cities and smaller then do in all the top ten populated cities in America. The top 10 populated cites in America total to about 23 million (over 23 but less then 24). There are 300 million total. That means that only about 8% of people live in a city like you. Where you live, and the beleif that you have in no God, are both in the minority. This doesnt make you wrong, just part of a smaller group of people then you beleive exists.

I now yeild to Creeper so that he may rebutt the points he mentioned.

[Laconian]

Hyllus,
Certainly you can't deny the religious beliefs that helped found this nation. The Puritans that started settling in New England did so for religious purposes. In both the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution, numerous references are made to God.

The south isn't the only place with strong religious communities, look in the NYC phone book and let me know how many churches are listed. At the turn of the century (20th), the two biggest landholders in NYC were the Espicopal and Catholic Churches.

Texas (& the south) isn't the only state with 1000-person towns - try going upstate and into the rest of New England & you'll find bunches and bunches of small towns. Give me a count on the number of p-up and four wheel drives and rebel flags you find up there.

Your broad brush painting of the south as some redneck haven filled with religious zealots is as laughable as it is offensive. And I'm from Jersey...

You chose not to believe, good for you. But don't cast aspersions on people who do. A lot of people have done and continue do a lot of good work dedicating their lives to faith.

[kinsella]

Your broad brush painting of the south as some redneck haven filled with religious zealots is as laughable as it is offensive. And I'm from Jersey...
.

lol.......a yankee standing up for the south. who'd have thunk it.

[Aerosoul]

Laconian's right. I've lived in the south all my life, except for the three years I spent at boarding school in MA. Plenty of relgious types everywhere.

Have you been to the south Hyllus? Do you really think we're all just a bunch of bible thumping racists? Do you know what people are like in the south? Times have changed. Learn something and take your head out of your ass.

[Laconian]

lol.......a yankee standing up for the south. who'd have thunk it.

I like the weather better...

[Aerosoul]

Rather humid in some areas, but it's alright. :)

[Creeper]

lol.......a Yankee standing up for the south. who'd have thunk it.

How about a person voicing out against ignorance.
Let people be,,,

[La8pv]

Tell that to the billions of people around the world who believe in god. What makes you think the whole world will be better without religion, religion gives many people meaning and hope in their lives. Your just a selfish person trying to take away the only thing that gives many people hope, so STFU about your antireligious comments

yeah. Whatever makes you happy. I would rather know than belive in a lie. So if you want to believe in santa, elves, thor, poseidon or whatever that makes your life complete, go a head. I prefere the real life.

[La8pv]

Hyllus,
Certainly you can't deny the religious beliefs that helped found this nation. The Puritans that started settling in New England did so for religious purposes. In both the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution, numerous references are made to God.

The south isn't the only place with strong religious communities, look in the NYC phone book and let me know how many churches are listed. At the turn of the century (20th), the two biggest landholders in NYC were the Espicopal and Catholic Churches.

Texas (& the south) isn't the only state with 1000-person towns - try going upstate and into the rest of New England & you'll find bunches and bunches of small towns. Give me a count on the number of p-up and four wheel drives and rebel flags you find up there.

Your broad brush painting of the south as some redneck haven filled with religious zealots is as laughable as it is offensive. And I'm from Jersey...

You chose not to believe, good for you. But don't cast aspersions on people who do. A lot of people have done and continue do a lot of good work dedicating their lives to faith.


I have examined all the known superstitions of the Word, and I do not find in our particular superstition of Christianity one redeeming feature. They are all alike, founded on fables and mythology. Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned. What has been the effect of this coercion? To make one half the world fools and the other half hypocrites; to support roguery and error all over the world ... The clergy converted the simple teachings of Jesus into an engine for enslaving mankind ... to filch wealth and power to themselves. [They], in fact, constitute the real Anti-Christ.
Thomas Jefferson


The Christian god can easily be pictured as virtually the same god as the many ancient gods of past civilizations. The Christian god is a three headed monster; cruel, vengeful and capricious. If one wishes to know more of this raging, three headed beast-like god, one only needs to look at the caliber of people who say they serve him. They are always of two classes; fools and hypocrites. To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical.
Thomas Jefferson


Accustom a people to believe that priests and clergy can forgive sins ... and you will have sins in abundance. I would not dare to dishonor my Creator's name by [attaching] it to this filthy book [the Bible].
Thomas Paine

It does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods, or no God.
Thomas Jefferson

Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear.
Thomas Jefferson

Whenever we read the obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel and torturous executions, the unrelenting vindictiveness, with which more than half the Bible is filled, it would be more consistent that we called it the word of a demon than the Word of God. It is a history of wickedness that has served to corrupt and brutalize mankind.
Thomas Paine

I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish Church, by the Roman Church, by the Greek Church, by the Turkish Church, by the Protestant Church, nor by any church that I know of. My own mind is my own church.
Thomas Paine

Let us with caution indulge the supposition, that morality can be maintained without religions.
George Washington

Of all the animosities which have existed among mankind, those which are caused by difference of sentiments in religion appear to be the most inveterate and distressing, and ought most to be deprecated. I was in hopes that the enlightened and liberal policy, which has marked the present age, would at least have reconciled Christians of every denomination so far that we should never again see the religious disputes carried to such a pitch as to endanger the peace of society.
George Washington, letter to Edward Newenham, October 20, 1792; from George Seldes, ed., The Great Quotations, Secaucus, New Jersey: Citadel Press, 1983, p. 726]

Religious controversies are always productive of more acrimony and irreconcilable hatreds than those which spring from any other cause.
George Washington, letter to Sir Edward Newenham, June 22, 1792


...I beg you be persuaded that no one would be more zealous than myself to establish effectual barriers against the horrors of spiritual tyranny, and every species of religious persecution. George Washington, to United Baptists Churches of Virginia, May, 1789 from The Washington papers edited by Saul Padover

[kinsella]

I have examined all the known superstitions of the Word, and I do not find in our particular superstition of Christianity one redeeming feature. They are all alike, founded on fables and mythology. Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned. What has been the effect of this coercion? To make one half the world fools and the other half hypocrites; to support roguery and error all over the world ... The clergy converted the simple teachings of Jesus into an engine for enslaving mankind ... to filch wealth and power to themselves. [They], in fact, constitute the real Anti-Christ.
Thomas Jefferson


The Christian god can easily be pictured as virtually the same god as the many ancient gods of past civilizations. The Christian god is a three headed monster; cruel, vengeful and capricious. If one wishes to know more of this raging, three headed beast-like god, one only needs to look at the caliber of people who say they serve him. They are always of two classes; fools and hypocrites. To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical.
Thomas Jefferson


Accustom a people to believe that priests and clergy can forgive sins ... and you will have sins in abundance. I would not dare to dishonor my Creator's name by [attaching] it to this filthy book [the Bible].
Thomas Paine

It does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods, or no God.
Thomas Jefferson

Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear.
Thomas Jefferson

Whenever we read the obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel and torturous executions, the unrelenting vindictiveness, with which more than half the Bible is filled, it would be more consistent that we called it the word of a demon than the Word of God. It is a history of wickedness that has served to corrupt and brutalize mankind.
Thomas Paine

I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish Church, by the Roman Church, by the Greek Church, by the Turkish Church, by the Protestant Church, nor by any church that I know of. My own mind is my own church.
Thomas Paine

Let us with caution indulge the supposition, that morality can be maintained without religions.
George Washington

Of all the animosities which have existed among mankind, those which are caused by difference of sentiments in religion appear to be the most inveterate and distressing, and ought most to be deprecated. I was in hopes that the enlightened and liberal policy, which has marked the present age, would at least have reconciled Christians of every denomination so far that we should never again see the religious disputes carried to such a pitch as to endanger the peace of society.
George Washington, letter to Edward Newenham, October 20, 1792; from George Seldes, ed., The Great Quotations, Secaucus, New Jersey: Citadel Press, 1983, p. 726]

Religious controversies are always productive of more acrimony and irreconcilable hatreds than those which spring from any other cause.
George Washington, letter to Sir Edward Newenham, June 22, 1792


...I beg you be persuaded that no one would be more zealous than myself to establish effectual barriers against the horrors of spiritual tyranny, and every species of religious persecution. George Washington, to United Baptists Churches of Virginia, May, 1789 from The Washington papers edited by Saul Padover




So three people had things to say about religion. And..........

Still doesnt show that this country wasnt founded on religious values. That was suppose to be your point was it not? That this country was not founded on religious values.

Seems to me that it points out that there were some less then eutheisatic people, about religion, involved with making this country what it is, but not all of them. Pretty sure there were more then three people involved with the Constitution.

[La8pv]

So three people had things to say about religion. And..........

Still doesnt show that this country wasnt founded on religious values. That was suppose to be your point was it not? That this country was not founded on religious values.

Seems to me that it points out that there were some less then eutheisatic people, about religion, involved with making this country what it is, but not all of them. Pretty sure there were more then three people involved with the Constitution.

"The most prominent of the Founders such as George Washington, John Adams, Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin Franklin and Ethan Allen, and here in North Carolina Ezekiel Polk, Charles Polk, and Charles and Ezra Alexander were Deists rather than Christians. Deists believed in the supremacy of human reason over faith and revelation, and disdained the supernatural. They opposed both government suppression and government establishment of religion."

(http://www.atheists.org/courthouse/charlotte.html)

just a question: What is religious values?

[kinsella]

"The most prominent of the Founders such as George Washington, John Adams, Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin Franklin and Ethan Allen, and here in North Carolina Ezekiel Polk, Charles Polk, and Charles and Ezra Alexander were Deists rather than Christians. Deists believed in the supremacy of human reason over faith and revelation, and disdained the supernatural. They opposed both government suppression and government establishment of religion."

(http://www.atheists.org/courthouse/charlotte.html)

just a question: What is religious values?

values dervived from, held up by, or re-enforced by ones own religious belief.

The point you were trying to make was that this country was not founded on those values. It was. You do not have to agree with them. That does not dismiss that we were founded on those beliefs.

[Ordie]

I believe that the Pledge of Alligiance is not mandatory for public meetings such as city councils or special districts including Community College Districts.

Its really up to the Board of Directors or Councilpeople to decide.

BTW: Many of the founding fathers including Jefferson were Diest.

[kinsella]

I do not think it is mandatory really anywhere. When i was in grade school and jr high, the 80s, we said it every morning in school. If you had some religious objection to it, then you just didnt stand and say it.

I think why this has been an issue, for those that want it said, is not the words per say, but the meaning. The words "under God " were added in the 50s as a way to further seperate ourselves from those "godless commies".

I think most would stlll feel strongly about the pledge even if those wrods were not in it. Saying the pledge is about showing respect to the country where you call home. I respect those that do not say it for a religious reason, but not those that wont say it becuase they have contemp for the country.

[XShipRider]

:)
They can leave now.

Oh that's so cliche. The communist countries don't want these misguided
youths either. They'll outgrow their disdain for the US, and the almighty
dollar, once they enter the working world. A few of them will go on to
define 'real money' and cheat on their taxes, just like everybody else.

Hell, they may even require their future staff and/or workers to recite
the Pledge of Allegiance. Don't sell them short - they're still young, broke
and in debt up to their eyeballs.

[La8pv]

values dervived from, held up by, or re-enforced by ones own religious belief.

The point you were trying to make was that this country was not founded on those values. It was. You do not have to agree with them. That does not dismiss that we were founded on those beliefs.

You still havent answered what those values are.

[Hunterhr]

Don't sell them short - they're still young, broke
and in debt up to their eyeballs.

Hey, I'm young, broke and in debt up to my eyeballs. I could probably still choke out the pledge of allegiance if I had to... :)

[XShipRider]

Hey, I'm young, broke and in debt up to my eyeballs. I could probably still choke out the pledge of allegiance if I had to... :)

I managed to remember all the words Friday* during a Veterans Day
affair at my son's school. We even did the "one nation, under God"
version. They sang "God Bless America" and the "Star Spangled
Banner" too.

*I hadn't recited it in years.

[kinsella]

You still havent answered what those values are.
thought you were asking what the defination was.........

The values are the base of our laws. The 10 Comadments. Some of the biggest debatess in this country right now, abortion, death penality, stem cells, are heavliy debated because of those values. The holidays we we celebrate, our culture, what we are as a country have come from the countries' dominate religius beliefs.

I know your looking for a list of things that I consider to be values. That I cannot give, it is more of the way, and reasons behind why we do what we do.

Even if you cannot agree that we are a religious value society, one cannot deny the influnce of a God in our Consition and Bill of Rights. We may not be as text book religious as we were when we were founded, but we still carry on, to a degree, those same ways of thinking and carrying on.

Lots of loopholes there for you to argue indeed. I am hoping you see what the intent is instead of just what is not put into words.

[Bia]

The great thing about America is you dont have to say anything.

Too bad more people dont exercise that right.

I for one love America and the ability to say or not say it.......but also I love America enough to say it whenever the opportunity comes....but dont get upset when others dont.

Just abide the laws...work and pay your taxes and I will likely not take issue with anything you do....or dont do.