View Full Version : Dutch plans to award their peacekeepers who protected (!) Srebrenica
saladin
11-10-2006, 10:46 AM
http://www.forbes.com/business/healthcare/feeds/ap/2006/11/08/ap3157148.html
The Dutch government plans to give a citation to troops who served as peacekeepers in Srebrenica but failed to stop the massacre of Bosnian Muslims 11 years ago in what was supposed to be a U.N.-protected safe haven.
The plan to award a unique insignia for duty at Srebrenica outraged survivors and victims' families Wednesday, who called it an insult to those who died.
The award was meant to heal a painful wound in the military, which felt unfairly blamed for the massacre and its reputation unjustly tarnished.
Defense Minister Henk Kemp said in a letter to parliament dated Nov. 3 that he would present the insignia to 850 troops of Dutchbat III at a ceremony on Dec. 4. He said the jacket pin "recognizes that they had to work under extremely difficult circumstances and did so honorably."
Kemp cited independent investigations exonerating the undermanned and ill-equipped Dutch battalion, which concluded the peacekeepers were powerless to halt the slaughter.
But survivors and families of victims said the troops should not receive the award.
"This is shameful. We wonder how far can the humiliation of our victims can go," Hajra Catic, president of the Srebrenica Women's Association, a leading survivors' group, said in Sarajevo.
Bosnian Serb troops overran the eastern Bosnian enclave in 1995, which the United Nations had declared a safe zone. They separated women from men and boys, and went on a shooting rampage that lasted for more than a week, killing an estimated 8,000 Muslims in the worst massacre in Europe since World War II.
The humiliated Dutch troops returned home to scathing charges of cowardice and incompetence. Many soldiers required long-term trauma therapy.
The National Institute for War Documentation blamed the debacle on the Dutch government and the United Nations for sending the troops without a clear mandate, inadequate strength and for refusing to send reinforcements when the Serbs attacked.
The report prompted the Dutch government to resign in 2002.
A Defense Ministry spokesman said Wednesday the troops themselves had asked for some form of recognition to compensate for the perceived abuse from the media and some politicians after the event.
"This is not a medal for courage or for special services," said the spokesman, speaking under ministry rules barring use of his name. "It is recognition that they were unrightfully judged."
Kemp's decision aroused little comment in the Netherlands.
Dion van den Berg, of the Interfaith Council for Peace, wrote in an opinion piece in the daily Trouw on Wednesday that the award was "a slap in the face" to the people of Srebrenica.
"I don't want to judge individual soldiers," she wrote, "but it's clear that Dutch politics failed in those days in July 1995, and that commanders in Srebrenica made mistakes."
In Sarajevo, Amor Masovic, the head of the Bosnian Federation Commission for Search of Missing Persons called it "a mockery of victims."
"Soldiers carried out the orders of their superiors and they should not be specially punished but most surely must not be awarded for what they did in Srebrenica," Masovic said.
Fadila Efendic, who lost her husband and 15-year-old son in Srebrenica, said peacekeepers "did nothing," to protect civilians in Srebrenica. "In fact, they handed our men and boys to the Serbs," said Efendic, whose son's body is still missing.
Associated Press reporter Samir Krilic contributed to this article from Sarajevo.
annihilation
11-10-2006, 11:36 AM
Im not sure that they should get some medal for their lack of action, buts its also not their fault for what happened.
phoilme
11-10-2006, 11:55 AM
Sounds like Kemp has a lot of guilt and the award will legitimize his ineptness. Call it the "NOF" or Not Our Fault award.
Kind of a national trauma I guess, but everyone ****s up from time to time. In my opinion the dutch should send their deepest regrets to the victims families, say they learned from what happened there, and then move on and not live in the past.
snyder
11-10-2006, 01:03 PM
but its also not their fault for what happened.
They ran like cowards. After this they celebrated with beer drinking all night long knowing that the people they handed over were being slaughtered while they were having a "good time".
They ran like cowards. After this they celebrated with beer drinking all night long knowing that the people they handed over were being slaughtered while they were having a "good time".
Go educate yourself before making these retarded comments.
They ran like cowards. After this they celebrated with beer drinking all night long knowing that the people they handed over were being slaughtered while they were having a "good time".
They were just following orders man. What can they do?Build a prison and house who they caught?:cantbeli:
phoilme
11-10-2006, 01:14 PM
there was no action and it wasn't just the Dutch that ditched.
I'm don't think a dutch commander/troops would act in the same way today. That's the only thing to do about it at this point.
And no, they were not the only ones to ditch. Some nations did, some didn't.
I have no problem with people blaming the Dutch goverment back then because they sent too few troops, with a bad mandate and only light weapons and also ignored any offerings of intelligence from other countries.
And also the UN who refused to provide air strikes when the Serbs were advancing towards the enclave because they were not attacking UN troops. Of course when the attack began it was too late and airstrikes would have caused alot of casualties amongst Dutch troops and local population.
But don't bash the troops of which alot have massive psychological traumas and ten have commited suicide since then.
phoilme
11-10-2006, 01:36 PM
It was a UN administered cluster f***. Why is it that an organization in which this type of situation is in its mission statement is so inept? So harmful because of their ignorance to the responsibility they have as an organization named the United Nations.
It's like paying farmers to stay away from the fields. Total non-sense. Give me your money and I won't do anything either. Let what may happen and I sure won't step up and admit fault.
phoilme
11-10-2006, 01:36 PM
Wait, was this NATO?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Protection_Force
"The UNPROFOR was composed of nearly 39,000 personnel, 320 of whom were killed on duty. It was composed of troops from Argentina, Bangladesh, Belgium, Brazil, Canada, Colombia, Czech Republic, Denmark, Egypt, Finland, France, Ghana, India, Indonesia, Ireland, Italy, Jordan, Kenya, Lithuania, Malaysia, Nepal, Netherlands, New Zealand, Nigeria, Norway, Pakistan, Poland, Portugal, Russian Federation, Slovak Republic, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland, Tunisia, Turkey, Ukraine, United Kingdom, United States and Venezuela."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Protection_Force
"The UNPROFOR was composed of nearly 39,000 personnel, 320 of whom were killed on duty. It was composed of troops from Argentina, Bangladesh, Belgium, Brazil, Canada, Colombia, Czech Republic, Denmark, Egypt, Finland, France, Ghana, India, Indonesia, Ireland, Italy, Jordan, Kenya, Lithuania, Malaysia, Nepal, Netherlands, New Zealand, Nigeria, Norway, Pakistan, Poland, Portugal, Russian Federation, Slovak Republic, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland, Tunisia, Turkey, Ukraine, United Kingdom, United States and Venezuela."
Everyone had a beer and partied till sh!t hits the fan !!rofl rofl rofl
Kind of a national trauma I guess, but everyone ****s up from time to time. In my opinion the dutch should send their deepest regrets to the victims families, say they learned from what happened there, and then move on and not live in the past.
Yes there were no official apoligies and that is still a shamefull thing, tens of millions of euros were sent to the region in compensation although it's not possible to compensate something like that with money.
It seems politicians have learned from that drama though, troops that are sent on similar missions nowadays receive proper training, better mandates, the best equipment available and can count on our own air support if needed.
Wrigley
11-10-2006, 02:01 PM
Interesting that this has been brought up. My dad's cousin was involved with some of these charges as he was a company commander at the time over there. We never heard much about it other that he wasn't found guilty of anything. I believe he is a major now, still in the Dutch Army.
You're way out of order.
Thank You, I take that as a complement!woot
Kaapeli
11-10-2006, 03:09 PM
Heavily outnumbered and outgunned, denied reinforcements and taken hostage. What would YOU have done in a situation like that?
Yes, the UN failed in doing what it had promised to do by protecting the civilians, but that was not the fault of the UN soldiers there.
UN failed overall, but with so many nations you also get various performances.
Sounds like Kemp has a lot of guilt and the award will legitimize his ineptness. Call it the "NOF" or Not Our Fault award.
it's actually Henk Kamp and he wasn't in charge back in the day (I think he was running the ministry for cute animals and trees back then :D)
They ran like cowards. After this they celebrated with beer drinking all night long knowing that the people they handed over were being slaughtered while they were having a "good time".
no they didn't, they could have and after the **** the locals put them through they should have!
hell they couldn't have run even if they'd wanted to because there was no fuel coming into the enclave, oddly enough the bosnians did get new rifles and uniforms ... how'd that happen?
but they didn't run, they stayed and did whatever they could to save the lives of their charges, most of whom made it safely to Tuzla, very much unlike the men who formed into several columns of up to 10.000 men (military and government first when there was still an element of surprise) in total and punched through the Serbian lines, the Serbs returned fire and killed thousands, then rounded up the survivors and executed them.
Where was Dutchbat at this point? They were still in Srebrenica forming blocking positions to force the serbs to fire at them directly after which they'd return fire and organize the effort with the bih military that was supposed to be on both flanks and push the serbs out.
The serbs did shoot at Dutchbat, Dutchbat did return fire with .50 machineguns and 120 mm mortars and a short F16 bomb run and then the serbs realized that the flanks were empty so they withdrew and moved around the blocking position.
The Dutch there barely had enough fuel to make it back to base so they couldn't reposition so they returned to Srebrenica from which they escorted about 10.000 mostly refugees women and children to Potocari and at that point Srebrenica had fallen.
it wasn't the Dutch that ran
I'm don't think a dutch commander/troops would act in the same way today. That's the only thing to do about it at this point.
And no, they were not the only ones to ditch. Some nations did, some didn't.
he would've done exactly the same, it was an impossible situation trying to protect a downright hostile population against a numerically superior enemy that had bigger guns and thicker armour depending on airsupport that simply wasn't forthcoming.
Dutchbat had compiled a list of 43 targets inside the heavy weapons exclusion zone or that fired at UNPROFOR OP's months before the fall, they send the list back to the UN so they could pass it on to NATO (insanely long chain of command) who would then bomb it. The list simply got lost three times and when it did reach nato the targets had moved or the barrels had cooled down so they couldn't engage.
requests to have the supply convoys fight their way through the serbian lines were denied.
the precence of British SAS forward air controllers that could guide in airdrops from a 'safe' altitude was ignored
etc. etc. etc.
the award is not a commendation for bravery but a recognition of having served overseas in peacekeeping operations, everybody else gets them, log&sigbat who were in Tuzla twisting there thumbs waiting for clearance to go in and relieve their buddies got them ... Dutchbat deserves them, period
this is long overdue
and **** all of you who think otherwise
and yeah they drank themselves into a coma ... they just came out of an open air concentration camp alive, greeted by the crownprince, a military band and tons of booze.
I drink myself into a coma for a lot less
btw the SAS personnel did recieve commendations for bravery in Srebrenica, unlike the Dutch Commando's they travelled with
he would've done exactly the same, it was an impossible situation...
Would you have given up your own family if they were about to be massacred?
...trying to protect a downright hostile population against a numerically superior enemy that had bigger guns and thicker armour
I sure as hell would have been desperate too in the situation they were in.
Would you have given up your own family if they were about to be massacred?
no
I sure as hell would have been hostile too in their situation.
they were hostile from the get go, when Dutchbat I arrived they immedeately recieved a visit from the local commander telling them they could not go to certain places (bandera triangle) and that they could not disarm his men.
Dutchbat I co responded to this by sending patrols into these areas who were immedeately taken hostage and had to be traded for gasoline and disarming anybody who openly carried a weapon which resulting in them using civilian houses (which UNPROFOR could not search) as observation posts and munitions depots
no
...
Let's leave it at that. I don't want to get any deeper into this discussion.
it's besides the point in any case
I'm not blaming them for sacrificing Srebrenica, tactically it was a smart thing to do ... I'm blaming them for blaming Dutchbat III for the fall of the enclave
BenUSMC
11-11-2006, 04:16 AM
Im not sure that they should get some medal for their lack of action, buts its also not their fault for what happened.
they do it all the time in the navy/ marine corps. they give em Navy achievement medals.
Last month this chick corporal in my shop was awarded a NAM for taking care of TRAINING JACKETS!.....from the period of april '06 to november '06. funny thing is she's been on convalescent leave since may and it was her alternate who was doing all the work. She gladly accepted the award however much to the disgust of every marine in the shop.
they don't get it for taking care of training jackets for a year but for getting posted in hell with their hands tied behind their backs
BenUSMC
11-11-2006, 04:24 PM
they don't get it for taking care of training jackets for a year but for getting posted in hell with their hands tied behind their backs
I wasn't clear, I wasn't replying to them getting an award for what they went through, i was only replying to what i quoted
sorry
it's a personal matter
Kaapeli
11-11-2006, 04:47 PM
I don't understand what there is to object about the Dutch getting a medal?
In the military people get medals if they participate in a campaign in any way (campaign medals) or just simply serve in the military for a time (service medals). And I think these Dutch did a hell of a lot more than just that.
an image speaks louder then words so for those that feel that Dutchbat should've fought harder ...
http://img388.imageshack.us/img388/4224/srebrentcm1568760tk1.jpg
that's what they had to use against BSA tanks ... unfair?
indeed
that feel that Dutchbat should've fought...
Made it more accurate.
yes
don't make me quote myself
Jojosh
11-11-2006, 05:34 PM
Picture is worth a thousand words:
http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/293/1963/1600/Mladic_Karremans_Toast.jpg
Some of the Dutch United Nations soldiers who failed to prevent the massacre of Srebenica in July 1995 gave the Serbs a back-slapping welcome, handed over their uniforms and even actively helped to separate Bosnian men from their families, say relatives of the 8,000 men and boys who were murdered. A German attorney is preparing a lawsuit against the UN and the Netherlands.
Read more here:
http://srebrenica-genocide.blogspot.com/2006/07/srebrenica-massacre-lawsuit-against.html
And about that alleged hostility of civillians towards the DutchBat maybe it has to do something about racism some of the UN soldiers where aggressivly displaying.Even heavily whitewashed NIOD report mentions it.
A good example is this graffiti written by DutcBat soldiers that even became part of this artists work.
http://www.zimba.nl/bosnia/images/stories/space/bosnian_girl_1.jpg
the NIOD report was whitewashed?
rofl
racism ... I think it has more to do with Bosnians using Dutchbat OP's as cover for their mortarfire, the Serbs would then return fire which in one instance killed the pvt Jeffrey Broere and later they killed the pvt Raviv van Rensen with a handgrenade attack.
and yes this started the minute they arrived and they did it to the Canadians before that ... what where the Canadians racists too?
RSKKnin
11-11-2006, 07:28 PM
They ran like cowards. After this they celebrated with beer drinking all night long knowing that the people they handed over were being slaughtered while they were having a "good time".
they knew what kind of "innocent people" would be eliminated
RSKKnin
11-11-2006, 07:31 PM
Heavily outnumbered and outgunned, denied reinforcements and taken hostage. What would YOU have done in a situation like that?
Yes, the UN failed in doing what it had promised to do by protecting the civilians, but that was not the fault of the UN soldiers there.
but hey nothing happened to civilians ..they were transfered to Zenica i belive with the buses
Jojosh
11-11-2006, 08:47 PM
the NIOD report was whitewashed?
Yes it was.Read the link.
racism ... I think it has more to do with Bosnians using Dutchbat OP's as cover for their mortarfire, the Serbs would then return fire which in one instance killed the pvt Jeffrey Broere and later they killed the pvt Raviv van Rensen with a handgrenade attack.
Well..displayed racisam was BEFORE this incidents and that granade was lobbed when some of the UN teams retreated from their positions thus enabling the Serbs to advance.
they knew what kind of "innocent people" would be eliminated
but hey nothing happened to civilians ..they were transfered to Zenica i belive with the buses
Well nothing much happened to civilians....just some 8000 of them got tortured and murdered.
In some countries genocide denial is a criminal act..
Yes it was.Read the link.
I've read the entire report in the original languange and no it was not white washed
Well..displayed racisam was BEFORE this incidents and that granade was lobbed when some of the UN teams retreated from their positions thus enabling the Serbs to advance.
bull****
when Dutchbat I arrived they were told by the local BiH commander what they could and could not do, when they did they were taken hostage by the people they were supposed to protect.
RSKKnin
11-11-2006, 11:19 PM
Yes it was.Read the link.
Well..displayed racisam was BEFORE this incidents and that granade was lobbed when some of the UN teams retreated from their positions thus enabling the Serbs to advance.
Well nothing much happened to civilians....just some 8000 of them got tortured and murdered.
In some countries genocide denial is a criminal act..
those were not civilians and it u should know that it doesnt make u civilian if u just change your clothing....there was no genocide therefore there can not be genocide denial...
so 1 questions...what happened to those that tried to go trough Serbian positions and got killed...were they also considered as civilians who were massacred???
Fazla
11-12-2006, 07:17 AM
those were not civilians and it u should know that it doesnt make u civilian if u just change your clothing....there was no genocide therefore there can not be genocide denial...
so 1 questions...what happened to those that tried to go trough Serbian positions and got killed...were they also considered as civilians who were massacred???
you make me sick. I've been trough this internet debates too much, and I've seen they always end up in nothing, it's just a shame after all this time people like you cannot admit what your same government acknowledged.
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