Poland holds up EU-Russia talks [Archive]

daily666

11-14-2006, 05:02 AM

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/img/v3/bbc_logo.gif
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6142418.stm

Poland has vetoed the start of talks between the EU and Russia on a new partnership agreement covering energy, trade and human rights.

The move means that it is unlikely the talks can be launched as planned at an EU-Russia summit in two weeks' time.

Poland says Russia must first lift a ban on Polish food imports and ratify a treaty on trade in energy products.

Officials say the EU's credibility will be damaged if a common position is not reached before the 24 November summit.

Russia supplies a quarter of the oil and gas consumed in the EU, and the proportion is set to rise sharply in coming decades.

Polish Prime Minister Jaroslaw Kaczynski said on Sunday that Russia was violating the current EU-Russia co-operation agreement by banning Polish meat, and many other foods.

Polish reservations

"We would like EU member states to show solidarity with Poland regarding Russia," he said, ahead of Monday's meeting of EU foreign ministers in Brussels.

After Poland wielded its veto, External Affairs Commissioner Benita Ferrero-Waldner said she hoped that it would still be possible for the EU to go into the EU-Russia summit with an agreed common position.

However Poland "has not lifted its reservations," she said.

Poland's insistence that Russia should ratify the Energy Charter Treaty - which would help foreign companies invest in Russia's energy market - is no longer shared by all EU countries.

Russia has signed the treaty, and the EU has been trying for years to get Moscow to ratify it, without success.

The European Commission is now aiming to enshrine many of the treaty's principles into the new partnership and co-operation agreement with Russia, once the old one comes to an end next year.

Flamming_Python

11-14-2006, 07:53 AM

Poland is like my asshole, it holds sh!t up!

j/k :D

Seriously though, I doubt Russia would ratify the treaty, while Russian energy is very imporrtant to Europe, so a compromise would probably favour Russia.

daily666

11-14-2006, 08:15 AM

Don't really know what we're trying to win with this rant, and our Minister of Foreign Affairs is one of the dumbest persons in the government.

jamaKinson

11-14-2006, 08:23 AM

My gov's actions make me feel so blue. http://img55.imageshack.us/img55/2676/emobyugghhzillatn2.gifhttp://img55.imageshack.us/img55/2676/emobyugghhzillatn2.gifhttp://img55.imageshack.us/img55/2676/emobyugghhzillatn2.gif

Flamming_Python

11-14-2006, 08:25 AM

Don't really know what we're trying to win with this rant, and our Minister of Foreign Affairs is one of the dumbest persons in the government.

There may be some logic with this move. Either to assert Poland as a serious decision-maker within the EU, or to afford it some economic consessions from Russia or the other EU members in return for going along with the program.

It is possible that they want to sabotage Russian influence in the EU, but I would think that this is a secoundary objective.

jamaKinson

11-14-2006, 08:39 AM

There may be some logic with this move. Either to assert Poland as a serious decision-maker within the EU, or to afford it some economic consessions from Russia or the other EU members in return for going along with the program.

It is possible that they want to sabotage Russian influence in the EU, but I would think that this is a secoundary objective.

LOL, seriously, you have a good point. This is really what our gov thinks we will gamble for, but Poland will achieve nothing positive from that decision.

Results will be:
-decreasing our importance within EU
-even worse relationships with Moscow
-new embargos maybe ?

Yay, way to go!

Maybe next time they will try talks BEFORE vetoing.

Xaito

11-14-2006, 08:48 AM

Flamming_Python

11-14-2006, 09:23 AM

who had the great idea to let poland join the EU anyway? ;)
must have been somebody who thought poland was able to make rational decisions instead of vetoing russia because you dont like them and because of some ****ing meat

Ah come on they are alright. They just need to shake off these idiots and focus on their economy rather than trying to "tame" a very large country like Russia.

tony6

11-14-2006, 10:02 AM

who had the great idea to let poland join the EU anyway? ;)
must have been somebody who thought poland was able to make rational decisions instead of vetoing russia because you dont like them and because of some ****ing meat
No, Bubba. The right version should be "becasue you don't like to be by-passed by Russian gas pipes which they build together with their fellow brothers-in-cheap-gas: Germans".

I'm not very fond of that idea, I hate Kaczynski twins but I do see some sense in it.
However I agree with Python that we should rather focus on our economy and our own yard.
Fortunately - like our weekend's vote results showed - Kaczynski Bros are about to be gone.

perdurabo

11-14-2006, 11:08 AM

this is stupidity, i agree that we shoud make more pressure on EU and Russia to lift Russian embargo on our food but vetoing isn't good idea, first talk try make some consensus, Russians are our neighbours for bad and good they are bigger and have more cards to play so WTF our gov. behaves like a$$holes like beheded chickens :[ instead trying to be positive side they can be only negative frigin idiots.

daily666

11-14-2006, 12:36 PM

It's simple stupidity, you don't make those things if you have no allies (all other 24 EU members accepted the deal). Meat? Who gives a sh*t about it when most of it lands in other EU countries anyway? And this is not the best way of making friendly relations with everybody, being against everybody. I hope the Kaczynski twins are gone within a year.

Asheren

11-14-2006, 12:50 PM

Flamming_Python

11-14-2006, 01:55 PM

It might not be that stupid as you think it is. Its very risky but if it dvelop correctly Russians might end up in quite difficult diplomatic situation. I think we are only ones that could say no at lowest cost, at last loking from economy side. We are already in postion where they used their usual arsenal of punishment(trade bans, rising gas prices and such) and aginst our nation threats generaly don't work. It certainly will bite us in (!) in future but i think this cirsis might determine future of our international policy or even future of UE. I am only afraid that our current govenrment is too dumb to play it correctly and it might end very badly for Poland.

ps. I would start with thinking what kind of motive was behind this decision. I only hope it wasn't some sort of our current government habbit to use international policy to bost thier support base at home playing on old phobias and complexes that mostly "B rated Poland" citizens have.

Like it or not, and despite any views you may have on Russia, the fact is that out of 25, 24 members of the EU had no problems with the new arrangements.

That leaves Poland vs. Russia, which is a position that Poland should have tried to avoid at all costs, due to the power disparity between the 2 countries. If there was considerable support for Poland's position, it may have had some weight to throw around, but by itself it stands very little chance of achieving anything favourable to itself. The EU countries may well decide to compromise a bit (as well as putting pressure on Poland), but at the end of the day it will most likely lead to decreased influence for Poland as the main decision makers (EU3) decide to call the shots from now on.

And by that I mean, if the EU is incapable of uniting to create a common policy, than the most powerfull countries of Britain, France and Germany may well decide to forge seperate agreements with Moscow, leaving Poland isolated. So if anything, this move by Poland may end up being favourable for the Kremlin, as it will benefit more from seperate agreements as it originally planned with Germany...

Go Kaczynski bro's! woot woot

:D

Sergei

11-14-2006, 02:09 PM

This Mario brothers hysterics will produce the following results:

1. Poland will get zilch for the dumbass government that they have.
2. The North Sea pipeline will be built with double effort (even ze Germans now see they have an unreliable partner on the east border). You cannot trust your precious energy to such neighbor.
3. The agreement will be signed with or without Poland in it (the rest 24 countries agree).
4. Russia will not ratify energy charter (do you see another charter like that which benefits the buyer more than the seller?). Hack, I want the latest BMW for a quarter of a price. Why ze germans don't sell them that cheap?
5. Poland is losing its last chances to find even some kind of dialogue with Russia. Bad decision in the long run.

That's about it for the time being. Let's see what other stupid things are to come.

Esszett

11-14-2006, 02:34 PM

No, Bubba. The right version should be "becasue you don't like to be by-passed by Russian gas pipes which they build together with their fellow brothers-in-cheap-gas: Germans".

And you think such a step will help your cause?
Do you think now the German government will think something like: "Oh, the Poles are so reliable, they'd never cause an energy-catastrophe in the rest of Europe just because of some childish dispute with Russia, let's dump our plans to by-pass them!" ...?

2. The North Sea pipeline will be built with double effort (even ze Germans now see they have an unreliable partner on the east border). You cannot trust your precious energy to such neighbor.

I think that's more like it...

Asheren

11-14-2006, 02:37 PM

Assuming that Russians don't do something they like to do aka. doing something before thinking about international public.

Asuming that Duck are that dumb they might try to force EU contries to pick sides bewen Russia and UE member country. They are aware that Russians will never forget if some country pick our side and try to do punish that country somehow. Best thing UE countries could do would be to work on some way of agreement that both sides could accept. At same time try to put pressure on our government to not do such stunts in future, try to normalise relations with Russia and on Russia to end their anti-polish s..t. If they pick sides then things might get nasty. Depending on configurations results might be diffrent but certainly won't end good for UE. UE divided would be in Russians best intrests. Like they say divide and conquer. If BIG 3 shaft us then propably a lot of smaller countries will think that they might get f..ed in similiar way for "ruling" countires intrest in future. If 24 shaft us then it propably pawed way to first country quiting UE in its short history and give gigantic bost to Kaczyskin brothers. You will end with 3x milions of pissoff more or less peoples ruled by radical government and on good way to thinking that they are surrounded by enemies. If proportion are more or less equal including big three on diffrent sides then we would have heavy crissis in UE. No mater how situation evolves it would most propably lead Poland to try to have even closer relation with USA.

Xaito

11-14-2006, 02:49 PM

No, Bubba. The right version should be "becasue you don't like to be by-passed by Russian gas pipes which they build together with their fellow brothers-in-cheap-gas: Germans".

you guys had that one comeing.
If you want gas for a low price russia gives its friends then you have to be russias friend - if you try to piss them off at any opportunity you have to accept regular prices and a pipeline that leads around your country because you are unreliable.
And now you drag the whole EU in that affair to blackmail russia into selling you gas and buying your meat?
Germany has assured you that it wont leave you without gas even in the event of russia stopping delivering gas to your country - what more can you expect?
but no your government tries to piss of germany at any opportunity as well.
Seriously guys you should get rid of the clowns who are leading your country right now ASAP or you wont have any friends left in whole Eurasia and your next government will have a really hard time restoring your reputation and credibilitty.
Things could be so much easier for everybody - including your country - if youd just change that attitude of yours.

Herrmannek

11-14-2006, 02:59 PM

Asheren

11-14-2006, 03:01 PM

Well knowing Russians they might tell ze Germans that they might cut them off as well. I think that is main diffrence we were friends of Soviet Russia for many years and we understand how it might end. Frienship with Russia usaly works in one way on longer term way favorable only for Russians.

ps. Anyway we will see how it develops. EOT from me not that i don't want to continue our lil discusion but i have train to catch in few hour. I don't like idea to be late during my first day in army.

Flamming_Python

11-14-2006, 03:01 PM

you guys had that one comeing.
If you want gas for a low price russia gives its friends then you have to be russias friend - if you try to piss them off at any opportunity you have to accept regular prices and a pipeline that leads around your country because you are unreliable.
And now you drag the whole EU in that affair to blackmail russia into selling you gas and buying your meat?
Germany has assured you that it wont leave you without gas even in the event of russia stopping delivering gas to your country - what more can you expect?
but no your government tries to piss of germany at any opportunity as well.
Seriously guys you should get rid of the clowns who are leading your country right now ASAP or you wont have any friends left in whole Eurasia and your next government will have a really hard time restoring your reputation and credibilitty.
Things could be so much easier for everybody - including your country - if youd just change that attitude of yours.

No the Poles must fight for what's right!

They are the last guardians of European Civilisation against the Evil Empire of Commu... I mean Putin's Russia. If they bend to the enemy now, they will once again live in subsurditude and slavery to the Russkies as they have for the past 10,000 years. The Russian Empire can't be trusted, they will only put Europe under their Iron grip once again through their schemes of Gas and Oil, which MUST BE stopped before it starts!

FREEDOOOOOOOOOOOOOOM!

:)

wasn't a protection of our interest outside EU a reason we joined it? IF EU will give a poo about this issue it will show how pooty organization it is... wasn't EU motto "one for all and all for one" ?

I believe you are thinking about the 3 muskateers rofl

We don't was gas for cheap, we pay market price for it,What we don't want to be blackmailed with the gas and oil.

And we don't want to get blackmailed by Poland refusing to transit our gas supplies through their territory.

So you see it's a double bull**** situation. But I gotta say, this latest move really did a lot towards building trust :|

I personally very much hope that relations improve to the point where such troubles are no longer a danger.

daily666

11-14-2006, 03:10 PM

Poland vetoes EU negotiations with Russia
Warsaw, Poland November 14, 2006
Poland has vetoed the start of negotiations between the EU and Russia on a new partnership agreement on energy and trade. This means that talks will not likely start in two weeks as planned.

Poland's government said it would not back the new treaty unless Russia lifts its ban on Polish food imports and ratifies a treaty on trade in natural gas and oil.

“We all appealed to Poland to lift its blockage,” EU external relations commissioner Benita Ferrero-Waldner said. Officials fear the EU's credibility will be damaged if a common position is not reached before the November 24 summit.

Polish PM Jaroslaw Kaczynski said on Sunday that Russia is violating the current EU-Russia cooperation agreement by banning Polish meat and other food products.

Russia supplies a quarter of the oil and gas consumed in the EU.

Polish Prime Minister Jaroslaw Kaczynski said on Sunday that Russia was violating the current EU-Russia co-operation agreement by banning Polish meat, and many other foods. "We would like EU member states to show solidarity with Poland regarding Russia," Kaczynski said.

Russia’s ban on Polish food products is based on allegations that they are substandard, a claim Poland says is false and politically motivated. Poland also feels that Russia is using its energy exports as a political tool. Russia supplies about a quarter of the oil and gas consumed in the EU and this percentage is expected to rise in coming years.

http://warsawvoice.pl/

The motive, is reasonable, but how they handle it, is horrific.

daily666

11-14-2006, 03:12 PM

daily666

11-14-2006, 03:54 PM

Poland worries EU peers ahead of Russia summit

Poland worries EU peers ahead of Russia summit

EU diplomatic sources are warning that the bloc's credibility with Russia is at risk unless Poland lifts its objections to a new EU-Russia cooperation pact. In the foreign ministers council, Warsaw insisted that the EU demand Russia lift a ban of Polish food imports before negotiations on a broader agreement can start.

The Russian ban was in response to forged veterinary certificates. Poland believes the EU is not doing enough to help it in its increasingly strained relations with Russia. The EU's external relations commissioner said the majority of EU states feared the lack of a negotiating mandate would undermine a summit with Russia this November 24.

Brussels said the summit will take place even if no mandate is agreed. Poland also insists that Russia ratify an energy charter with the EU. This includes commitments on energy supplies and better investors' access to Russia's sector. Moscow has refused so far. A meeting between EU leaders and Russian President Vladimir Putin in Helsinki is due to launch talks on a wide-ranging agreement including energy, trade and human rights.

http://www.euronews.net/create_html.php?page=europa&article=390571&lng=1

Xaito

11-14-2006, 03:54 PM

wasn't a protection of our interest outside EU a reason we joined it? IF EU will give a poo about this issue it will show how pooty organization it is... wasn't EU motto "one for all and all for one" ?
not to the point where only your interests matter - what happened now is that poland showed that it gives a damn about the interest of the rest of the EU - instead of trying to find a constructive sulution they put stones in the way of the EU.
Think about why you are in the situation you are in now - the rest of the EU doesnt have problems with doing business with Russia, only you do - if everybody would have a problem with Russia then you could start looking for the cause in Russia - but if its only you then maybe you should look for the cause in Poland?

PolishKhalsa

11-14-2006, 04:29 PM

PolishKhalsa

11-14-2006, 04:38 PM

...
- if everybody would have a problem with Russia then you could start looking for the cause in Russia - but if its only you then maybe you should look for the cause in Poland?

All of the post soviet block countries have problems with Russia except Poland is the only one that does something about it. The baltic states are jumping for joy right now. They were supporting Poland with the veto until they chickened out in the last moment.

Friendly Fire

11-14-2006, 04:38 PM

PolishKhalsa

11-14-2006, 05:53 PM

One more comment on the constant fear by a lot of polish forum participants on 'How will they see us' or 'They will never forgive us if we do not agree to something'

1. Poland is a player in EU and if it does not play on one team the other team will be more than happy to take her because she has votes that can not be ignored. No one can throw Poland out.

2. EU members are very self-centered and concentrated on their own interest and disagreeing on one issue does not mean they can not agree on others. Poland might not agree with France on foreign affairs but it will be Frances closest allay on agricultural issues.

So do not worry about pissing anybody off. Germany, Britain or France would not think twice about putting a veto where their interests are concerned. They did it before and they will do it again. And if Germany will need something from Poland they will kiss Poland’s a$$ and vice versa.

*^*

11-14-2006, 06:01 PM

:)

.......

Flamming_Python

11-14-2006, 06:38 PM

What is the big deal here? Poland has exercised its right to a veto. That is why the veto right was put there in the first place. This is part of the EU treaty.

As far as the political situation goes:

1. Economic and political situation with Russia can not get any worse. As somebody said here Russia has used its arsenal already ( except maybe nuke Poland). They have banned polands meat and agricultural products for no reason. Hiked gas/oil prices, plan to build baltic pipeline, blocked polish ship traffic around the Vistula peninsula, blocked oil shipments to Mozejki refinery in Lithuania which polish company just bought. All of this for no valid reason except political and economic intimidation.

2. Poland will not loose any influence in EU because status quo in EU is good for Poland. Poland has its development aid, strong voting powers and the agricultural aid will get only better. None of those things can be taken away. It is the 'Old EU' countries that need Poland in introducing any EU reforms and until Poland catches up economically to the Western EU it is not in Poland’s interest to make any changes

And you don't believe that there is a legitimate reason for the economic troubles. You don't believe that anything that is done with Russia involved doesn't neccesserily have an ulterior motive. On the other hand, you also don't seem to believe that Russia should be able to look out for it's own interests just like the hundreds of other countries around do.

Everything seems to be black and white, ain't that right? You are right and we are wrong, end of story. Never has it occured to you that Russia bans and subsidises many products from many countries, all of them around the globe, and that Poland is perhaps not the only one?

Here I'll give you an example about how a recent ban on a certain Latvian food product has been solved in Russia. Nothing to do with politics:

http://en.rian.ru/world/20061114/55637287.html

Now there may well be some that are tied in with politics, but you have to view each case individually, not put a black blanket over the whole thing, which would then make it much easier for certain people to draw unfair conclusions such as that "Russia is punishing Eastern Europe".

In terms of the Polish meat exports, I did a little reading, which has shown that Poland exports $3,960 million worth of goods to Russia as of 2005 (compared to $1,300 million in 2002). Of that 3,960 million, the meat exports account for $40 million tops. I'm sure that if Russia wanted to harm Poland, it could do a lot better than banning less than 1% of it's exports to the Motherland, so perhaps instead of complaining about us, maybe you should take a closer look at our complaints about your products (and you have a full right to complain about our products as well) and try to find a solution with us perhaps?

I suppose that it also hasn't occured to you, that while the EU is so busy diversifying its energy suppliers, Russia has also been very busy diversifying the places it sells energy too. New pipelines have been built to China, and a whole host of energy co-operation agreements have been signed with East Asian countries. This is of course the same energy, that will increasingly become diverted from Europe, and routed to Asia. Now you tell me what you believe... Do you believe that this is because Russia is an unreliable supplier, or because Russia see's Europe as an unreliable customer with all of its petty squabbles and demands to own resources that are not theirs to begin with (something that the Asian powers aren't pressuring Russia on at all).

Go do whatever you want, safe in the knowledge that Russia won't use its nuclear arsenal on you. Eastern Europe bears very little significance right now to the Kremlin I would imagine (Ukraine and Belarus excepted), with huge markets growing on its other borders. Therefore, that springs a new question. Why would Russia be interested in maintaining influence in Eastern Europe at all? Why would they put pressure on countries there? There is absolutely no reason, particularly when relations with the whole of the Western World are at stake.

I am a firm believer in the philosophy that finding a motive, is a higher priority than finding the evidence. So don't hang the accused before the jury gives the verdict.

Friendly Fire

11-15-2006, 03:12 AM

And you don't believe that there is a legitimate reason for the economic troubles. You don't believe that anything that is done with Russia involved doesn't neccesserily have an ulterior motive. On the other hand, you also don't seem to believe that Russia should be able to look out for it's own interests just like the hundreds of other countries around do.

Everything seems to be black and white, ain't that right? You are right and we are wrong, end of story. Never has it occured to you that Russia bans and subsidises many products from many countries, all of them around the globe, and that Poland is perhaps not the only one?

Here I'll give you an example about how a recent ban on a certain Latvian food product has been solved in Russia. Nothing to do with politics:

http://en.rian.ru/world/20061114/55637287.html

Now there may well be some that are tied in with politics, but you have to view each case individually, not put a black blanket over the whole thing, which would then make it much easier for certain people to draw unfair conclusions such as that "Russia is punishing Eastern Europe".

In terms of the Polish meat exports, I did a little reading, which has shown that Poland exports $3,960 million worth of goods to Russia as of 2005 (compared to $1,300 million in 2002). Of that 3,960 million, the meat exports account for $40 million tops. I'm sure that if Russia wanted to harm Poland, it could do a lot better than banning less than 1% of it's exports to the Motherland, so perhaps instead of complaining about us, maybe you should take a closer look at our complaints about your products (and you have a full right to complain about our products as well) and try to find a solution with us perhaps?

I suppose that it also hasn't occured to you, that while the EU is so busy diversifying its energy suppliers, Russia has also been very busy diversifying the places it sells energy too. New pipelines have been built to China, and a whole host of energy co-operation agreements have been signed with East Asian countries. This is of course the same energy, that will increasingly become diverted from Europe, and routed to Asia. Now you tell me what you believe... Do you believe that this is because Russia is an unreliable supplier, or because Russia see's Europe as an unreliable customer with all of its petty squabbles and demands to own resources that are not theirs to begin with (something that the Asian powers aren't pressuring Russia on at all).

Go do whatever you want, safe in the knowledge that Russia won't use its nuclear arsenal on you. Eastern Europe bears very little significance right now to the Kremlin I would imagine (Ukraine and Belarus excepted), with huge markets growing on its other borders. Therefore, that springs a new question. Why would Russia be interested in maintaining influence in Eastern Europe at all? Why would they put pressure on countries there? There is absolutely no reason, particularly when relations with the whole of the Western World are at stake.

I am a firm believer in the philosophy that finding a motive, is a higher priority than finding the evidence. So don't hang the accused before the jury gives the verdict.

Eastern Europe bears an importance you can't imagine. It's the gate to Russia and the only potential safe heaven for it's interests.
Right now Russia shows little interest to deal with the actual leadership of it's former european Plastron.

As former commies, these countries know too well what russia has in mind. The problem with it resides in the way it is going to oppose the galopant ostracism the actual elites of these countries oppose to russian policies. It really has switched from a side to another.

Fear from russia is alarmingly high! Many of the New-Eu states (especially the Baltic ones) are in a CW mentality scheme you couldn't imagine. But most important is the way Poland is treating Russia!

Their goal is not to call on wolf, no their goal is to replace the Wolf. Their active policy in the region, their rearmament, their military reforms show a clear sign. Poland is back with no inferiority complex, but plays on secular paranoia and distrust towards Russia to actually seize an important opportunity since it has integrated the EU. To become the Eastern Center as opposed to Germany.

People in Poland usually refuse this as Euro-paranoia but the fact is that Poland has already rediscovered the path of its master. There is no surprise on the number of Polish immigrants to the British Islands, neither on the number of former Soviet satellites. Here again people will argue that's because of immigration facilities, here again i'm not willing to understand how being litterally exploited and being payed worse than Polish that work illegally in the Continent is a facility or an incentive to go British.

If the Poles want confrontation Russia will probably not deal with them, that's what causes all the posturing and bravado by the Polish leadership.

However in the long run Poland will eventually be ostracized by other Eu members along with the rest of the Eastern countries when the regionalisation of the EU will begin. By being the poorest region and having a direct competitor for the leadership of it's region, Poland will have no other choice but to brace itself and become a broker in EU-Russia matters. that's the only way the Polish could overcome their uneasy political situation within the EU.

That's called Irony.

Sergei

11-15-2006, 04:12 AM

All of the post soviet block countries have problems with Russia except Poland is the only one that does something about it. The baltic states are jumping for joy right now. They were supporting Poland with the veto until they chickened out in the last moment.

Correction, not the post soviet block countries, but the corrupt leadership of those soviet block countries. And the majority of them is on US payroll (see Georgia, Ukraine) anyways or have american-born leaders (see the three lesbian Baltic countries). Russia is the only country in the region which carries out its sovereign right for an independent foreign policy. The rest are just lackeys and puppets who are waiting for a cough from Brussels or Washington. Some deviant people call it "democracy".

Flamming_Python

11-15-2006, 06:15 AM

Came across an article that explains it quite well:

http://en.rian.ru/analysis/20061115/55651553.html

daily666

11-15-2006, 11:37 AM

Here comes the most unexpected!!!

France backs Poland in EU-Russia summit row
15.11.2006 - 15:19 CET | By Andrew Rettman
EUOBSERVER / BRUSSELS - France is siding with Poland on complaints the European Commission has not done enough to help break Russia's food trade ban, as Finnish PM Matti Vanhannen attempts to salvage next week's EU-Russia summit.

"We have supported Poland on the issue of the [food trade] embargo. We repeated on Wednesday (15 November) that it falls fully within the commission's competence - it's not a bilateral issue," a French diplomat told EUobserver.

It's not for Russia to decide what the European Commission's competence is in our own interior architecture," he added, with Poland saying Brussels "overslept" on the food trade question, passing it from department to department over the past year.

Russia last November imposed a blockade on Polish exports of meat and vegetables, with Poland now saying it will block next week's EU-Russia negotiations on a new post-2007 treaty unless the EU gets tough on Russian trade and energy policy.

Trade commissioner Peter Mandelson in April privately promised the Polish ambassador in Brussels he would intervene, but washed his hands of the issue in June as a "bliateral matter" with the topic passing back to colleagues in the commission's health department.

"The Russians did not want the commission involved in the negotiations. We were proactive, we did our best, but the Russians just didn't want us," an official in Mr Mandelson's team said.

Another commission official added "There is sympathy for Poland. It's pretty clear that if a third country imposes a trade ban on an EU member state for political reasons - as in this case - then the commission has to act. But they didn't want to upset the Russians."

The energy gambit
Vetoing the launch of upcoming talks in Finland on the new EU-Russia pact, Poland this week also stipulated the EU must ask Russia to ratify the 1991 Energy Charter Treaty (ECT) on fair play in international energy markets.

The ratification demand comes at a time when Russia is suspected of using gas export prices as leverage to stop Ukraine and Georgia moving toward NATO membership and to push Belarus into an unwanted state union.

The other 24 member states say the EU should focus on getting the "principles" of the ECT into the new EU-Russia treaty as full Russian ratification is unrealistic, with Poland's ECT demand widely seen as a gambit to get EU backing on the meat issue.

"We saw this [meat export] issue coming, but we were all surprised by the strong linkage that Poland made with the new EU-Russia treaty. These issues cannot be linked in any formal way," an EU diplomat remarked.

Face-saving deal wanted
But with Russia publicly saying it will not bend to Polish "blackmail," the Polish prime minister calling for EU trade sanctions on Russia and the commission saying it is powerless to help, it's hard to see which solution can allow everyone to save face.

The spokeswoman for Finnish prime minister Matti Vanhannen said "it is possible" he will personally call his Polish opposite number, Jaroslaw Kaczynski, this week, adding "this is the biggest problem for the summit right now."

France has sketched a way out that would see the EU toughen rhetoric on Russia's energy behaviour but fall short of asking for ECT ratification while making binding promises to Poland on meat, but with no public linkage to the EU-Russia talks.

"Poland can change its position even on the morning of the summit [24 November], there is no strict deadline for this," one EU diplomat said. "But with each day that passes the chances for an agreement are getting smaller."

http://euobserver.com/9/22875

PolishKhalsa

11-15-2006, 11:59 AM

....

Everything seems to be black and white, ain't that right? You are right and we are wrong, end of story. Never has it occured to you that Russia bans and subsidises many products from many countries, all of them around the globe, and that Poland is perhaps not the only one?

Yes Russia has the right to ban every product from any country including Poland no matter how ridiculous the explanation for the ban might be but the affected country has the right to respond and that is what Poland is doing.

…

so perhaps instead of complaining about us, maybe you should take a closer look at our complaints about your products (and you have a full right to complain about our products as well) and try to find a solution with us perhaps?

I do not know how the discussions progressed between Poland and Russia but I know that EU has verified the processes in place in Poland and it said there is no reason for Russia to ban the exports. EU is accepting polish exports without any problems and I do not believe that the standards in Russia are higher than EU. Actually what happens right now is that in most likelihood Russia is still importing polish products through other EU countries with different labels. The problem is that now polish companies are loosing a lot of the profits having to go through third parties.

[/QUOTE]

…

Now you tell me what you believe... Do you believe that this is because Russia is an unreliable supplier, or because Russia see's Europe as an unreliable customer with all of its petty squabbles and demands to own resources that are not theirs to begin with (something that the Asian powers aren't pressuring Russia on at all).

If Russia wants to take part in the direct distribution channels of oil or gas in EU it has to open its resources to EU investments. Otherwise EU would be creating a monopoly on its territory and this is not what free market and fair competition is about.

…

Why would Russia be interested in maintaining influence in Eastern Europe at all? Why would they put pressure on countries there? There is absolutely no reason, particularly when relations with the whole of the Western World are at stake.
..

Again I think this is because Russia wants access to direct distribution channels in EU. It wants to have its own gas stations and sell gas directly to the EU customers instead of lets say Ruhrgas. Much more money to be made there. EU can not agree to this because it would put the EU companies out of business that is why they want partial ownership in Russian resource extraction companies. Central and Eastern Europe are just easier targets than Western Europe to pressure.

Flamming_Python

11-15-2006, 04:02 PM

Yes Russia has the right to ban every product from any country including Poland no matter how ridiculous the explanation for the ban might be but the affected country has the right to respond and that is what Poland is doing.

I do not know how the discussions progressed between Poland and Russia but I know that EU has verified the processes in place in Poland and it said there is no reason for Russia to ban the exports. EU is accepting polish exports without any problems and I do not believe that the standards in Russia are higher than EU. Actually what happens right now is that in most likelihood Russia is still importing polish products through other EU countries with different labels. The problem is that now polish companies are loosing a lot of the profits having to go through third parties.

If Russia wants to take part in the direct distribution channels of oil or gas in EU it has to open its resources to EU investments. Otherwise EU would be creating a monopoly on its territory and this is not what free market and fair competition is about.

Again I think this is because Russia wants access to direct distribution channels in EU. It wants to have its own gas stations and sell gas directly to the EU customers instead of lets say Ruhrgas. Much more money to be made there. EU can not agree to this because it would put the EU companies out of business that is why they want partial ownership in Russian resource extraction companies. Central and Eastern Europe are just easier targets than Western Europe to pressure.

Well it is Russia's resources. If you don't want them. Don't buy them. No-one is forcing you to. However yes Russia does want control over the pipelines so that it has a degree of control over it's own supply, and prevent it from being affected by politics or economics, as well as the potential for greater profit.

I see you haven't read the articles. Well one of them mentions that Russia has been banning US poultry for a while now (which was a major factor in USA-Russia WTO talks). Do you believe that Russia is doing that to "punish" America as well rofl

Seriously though why do you think Russia is "punishing" Poland by banning less than 1% of it's exports, in a field in which it has VERY strict requirements on all countries (food & produce).

As for that France thing, good for you. But when was the last term that you heard about the buyer dictating the terms to the supplier in a free market economy? Europe is behaving as if it has found an alternate supplier already, with all that big talk p-)

Seriously though, Europe should REALLY think about what they're doing, and i'm not saying that as a threat, but as a voice of reason. The EU slapping political/economical sanctions on Russia is not the same as slapping sanctions on Belarus (nor is it the same as banning meat imports from Poland). There will be massive consenquences for both Russia and the EU (although Russia has been busy acquiring an economical war chest for such an occurance), and politically the situation could slide back into that of a few decades ago.

daily666

11-15-2006, 04:26 PM

It's hard to disagree with you Flamming, but you have to understand our point of view. Honestly I think if Poland doesn't want to get the gas&oil from Russia we should search for some other way of getting them. It's possible to make gas out of coal and we can always start building nuclear powerplants anyway. If we can't do that we're basically "kicking the horse", for sure it's going to kick back harder.

perdurabo

11-15-2006, 04:47 PM

Flamming_Python

11-15-2006, 05:33 PM

I do understand the Polish point of view. That was actually the first point of view that I was exposed to, seeing as how I live in England :D

However, my problem is that there is precious little understanding of the Russian point of view in Poland or Europe. Maybe among the elite and those "in the know", but in the media, etc... It is never explained. Of course Russia can be quite insensitive of other countries issues as well, that I admit, but Russia to this day has had a whole load of trade restrictions, etc... slapped on it, that it doesn't complain about (read up about the Jackson-Vanik amendment, recent American sanctions on Russian Aviation companies, Russia trouble entering WTO over last 13 years, and fears about Russian compaines on the world markets), but instead seeks compromise and solutions for these problems.

I don't believe that Poland is doing this out of any particular hate for Russia, but rather a mixture of distrust and pragmatism. This is fair enough, but people have to understand that Russia is probably doing what it is doing because of EXACTLY the same reasons. However, all too often it is presented as some dark force that wishes to dominate Europe and punish countries. That sort of perspective has led to the situation we have now.

Perhaps there is some politics involved in some of the sanctions among products (the timing of bans on Georgian wines was certainly suspicious, but then again Moldovan wines were also banned at the same time), but that doesn't mean that there aren't legitimate concerns as well, and that there isn't a real problem of counterfit goods, chemicals, etc...

In terms of the Meat ban, I think that Poland may have a point from the Economical point of view, but this issue has been massively overblown into Politics (a field which is irrelevant in this case). Russia has banned similar products from many countries (perhaps a little hastily by banning the whole industry as one said). You have to remember that Russia has different standards from the rest of Europe, whether it makes sense or not. The reason why the Polish meat was banned as opposed to German and French, was because of counterfit certificates, etc...

The reason why American poultry was banned, was because of a too high a precense of a certain chemical (actually I may be wrong about the poultry, not too sure).

Like I said, read the first article I posted. A similar Latvian problem was solved by establishing a joint Russian-Latvian commission for checking of the food products in question.

It's hard to disagree with you Flamming, but you have to understand our point of view. Honestly I think if Poland doesn't want to get the gas&oil from Russia we should search for some other way of getting them. It's possible to make gas out of coal and we can always start building nuclear powerplants anyway. If we can't do that we're basically "kicking the horse", for sure it's going to kick back harder.

If you go Nuclear, make sure you get it from us, we are going back into this field, hopefully without more Chernobyl's :D

Digimon

11-15-2006, 10:49 PM

Flamming, I think you have made very good points...

I only take exception to your priorities on motives rather than evidence...

Friendly Fire

11-16-2006, 01:30 AM

Falmming, basic EU rule is we stick togheter, if you ban polutry from Poland you ban polutry from EU member. I know Russia has strict regulations but Poland has same regilations as rest of EU so if Polish meat is not ok with you so is French and German but i don't see ban on rest of EU members. So i would agree if you banned some companies that tried to push you leftovers as first grade product but you can't ban whole country production.

No unanimity within the EU is for voting purposes on the highest executive level...it doesn't apply to anything else. As you maybe have not understood the EU is a Common Market before being a political entity. If you ban poultry from one country that means you ban it from that country not from the entire block. Check the previous belgian dioxine crisis.

As for France lining up with Poland, meh that's an old postcolonial reflex France hasn't been abe to get rid off! Instead of backing Poland on the Meat Crisis they should get rid of that annoying anti-free movement legislation they use to deny polish workers the right to be more competitive in Western Europe.

Sergei

11-16-2006, 04:46 AM

Russia has now developed a huge production base for the poultry, so any country willing to sell chicken**** to Russia should see it as a "favour" instead of obligation by Russia to allow imports in.
You see those automobile makers? They are jumping out of their pants just to be allowed to build autoplants in Russia.
This is a rapidly growing market, and unlike EU, it is a much more promising market.

tony6

11-16-2006, 05:05 AM

2. The North Sea pipeline will be built with double effort (even ze Germans now see they have an unreliable partner on the east border). You cannot trust your precious energy to such neighbor.
For the time being nothing will be build because Sweden didn't agree on that because of environment-protection cause (at least - that is 'official' version).

3. The agreement will be signed with or without Poland in it (the rest 24 countries agree).
No buddy - ALL countires must agree on that - that is the whole idea.

tony6

11-16-2006, 05:09 AM

Seriously guys you should get rid of the clowns who are leading your country right now ASAP or you wont have any friends left in whole Eurasia and your next government will have a really hard time restoring your reputation and credibilitty.
So you say that Mr.Shroeder was not a clown? I think his level of "clownability" was even higher that Kaczynski Bros'es.
Also - if you keep fvcking us behind our back - why shouldn't we react?
Now after 2 years in Mighty EU we see clearly that whole "european solidarity" is total bull**** so we mind our own business.
That is the best policy.

Herrmannek

11-16-2006, 06:43 AM

tony6

11-16-2006, 06:58 AM

Lithuania has just supported our post.
Also France is going to be a mediator in this argument.

Brute

11-16-2006, 07:26 AM

What we don't want to be blackmailed with the gas and oil.

Funny you don't want to be blackmailed, and yet you wish to preserve the status quo thus leaving Russia vulnurable to your potential blackmail. :roll:

Herrmannek

11-16-2006, 07:43 AM

Funny you don't want to be blackmailed, and yet you wish to preserve the status quo thus leaving Russia vulnurable to your potential blackmail. :roll:

And how we can blackmail Russia?

Brute

11-16-2006, 07:46 AM

And how we can blackmail Russia?

How?

I believe the recent gas row with Ukraine has clearly shown how.

daily666

11-16-2006, 08:06 AM

Lithuania has just supported our post.
Also France is going to be a mediator in this argument.

Sadly Lithuania isn't a *big* player in Europe, so the support won't change much, we need more countries like France or UK to join the initiative.

Aside from the main topic I see that for a "Polish- Russian- oil/gas-pipeline/enegry/meat/energy/" thread the discussion is quite civilised. Well done, keep it that way.

Friendly Fire

11-16-2006, 08:22 AM

Whats funny about this issue is that pair of so called euroskeptics if sucessful can make UE stronger and more united than ever before. Remeber guys we don't use veto for the sake of it or to block that agreement, we use it to make a point and make the agreement fit to EU mottos... If Europeans will fail to take that point they will fail on all lines...

If the EU was to meet it's objectives, let alone motos or ideals, Poland shouldn't be in the EU, it hadn't reached any of the objectives of the Copenhague Agreement! Not mentioning the very fact most of the new Eu members (except Slovenia) falsified their economical record in order to have the provisionnal green light. Hungary being one of the most blatant cases.

So I must ask you to shove it...again. We only accepted you for the very point that with the eastern countries in, the Euro value would have been balanced in regard to the inflating monetary basket we had during 2003/2005.

If not just ask youself why aren't your workes welcome in most countries of the EU?

Flamming_Python

11-16-2006, 08:34 AM

In terms of the energy treaty that Poland wants Russia to sign, i'll like to point out an example of a typical PSA (Production Sharing Agreement).

In this case, it is the Sakhalin PSA, whereby the foreign investors get 90% of the profit, and Russia gets 10%, along with massive ecological damage that already takes a good chunk of 10% profit to fix... But of course these facts were all ignored by Western media outlets :(

http://echo.msk.ru/programs/razvorot/47533/ (Russian only unfortunetly). This is an interview with an important Russian official in the field of Natural Resources. It's very interesting as a whole, so allow me to translate a small part of it:

О. МИТВОЛЬ - «Сахалин-2» проект, вы знаете, очень интересная история. Я не говорю о моральной ситуации, связанной с ответственностью тех должностных лиц, которые подписали в свое время соглашение о разделе продукции, по которому Россия после компенсации всех расходов инвестора получает всего 10%, а 90% инвестор. Например, наш сосед Азербайджан предлагает СРП в соотношении 70 – Азербайджану, 30 – инвестору. А у нас 10% - России, 90 – инвестору.

Translation:

"O. MITVOL - You know, the «Sakhalin-2» project, has a very interesting history. I'm not talking about the moral situation, which is linked to the responsibilty of those officials, who signed in their time a Production Sharing Agreement, in which Russia, after compensation for all the investors expenses, only gets 10%, and the investors get 90%. For example, our neighbour, Azerbaijan offers a PSA with a ratio of 70% to Azerbaijan, and 30% to investors. While with us, it's 10% to Russia, 90% to investors."

Stalin would be rolling in his grave... :D

Fortunately Russia only has about 3 PSA's. So despite the article, it is much better than a country like Azerbaijan for example, a country in which all of it's oil production is tied in with PSA's, and in which the Azerbaijan elite is happy with that 10% or so that goes into their back pocket, rather than spent on their people. And when the article above mentions the 30% that Azerbaijan gets, it gets things a little wrong, as Azerbaijan, rather than operating a strict to paper PSA regime, actually follows a share-selling system which means that it would get closer to 10% than 30% (similar system to that between Western Oil companies and Nigeria)

I'll be honest with you. I think that these things are an absolute disgrace which should be stopped immediately despite Western objections (we don't blame them for trying though ;)), and the Russian citizens who signed such agreements 10 years ago should be fired, finned and investigated.

But I doubt it's going to happen that way. The Kremlin is playing a more sneaky set of cards, which creates conditions in which the PSA's are in direct conflict with Moscow's policy of state ownership in the energy sector. When the 2 groups collide, it's not hard to predict who will win p-)

Sergei

11-16-2006, 09:21 AM

For the time being nothing will be build because Sweden didn't agree on that because of environment-protection cause (at least - that is 'official' version).

You are wrong, the Russian portion to Vyborg is being built at a rapid pace. Then it is up to Germany to loose a lot of their already invested money into the project. I am sure there will be some serious talking between Germany and Sweden on this.

No buddy - ALL countires must agree on that - that is the whole idea.

It looks like instead of unilateral agreement, Russia will sign separate agreements with each and every country in EU except...Poland. Poland can bite its pride as usual.
And the only competition you will have with the three baltic states as to who will fart the loudest towards Russia.

madpendos

11-16-2006, 09:23 AM

UE - united emirates ?

Friendly Fire

11-16-2006, 09:32 AM

UE - united emirates ?

Where did you read that?

tony6

11-16-2006, 09:54 AM

Well, well - it looks like euorpean experts has just shown up here in Poland to investigate the case.
Funny thing - they haven't got time to do it since november 2005.
Impressive speed indeed.

tony6

11-16-2006, 09:57 AM

I am sure there will be some serious talking between Germany and Sweden on this.
Probably - but Swedish acceptance is necessary.

It looks like instead of unilateral agreement, Russia will sign separate agreements with each and every country in EU except...Poland. Poland can bite its pride as usual.
We'll see about that.

And the only competition you will have with the three baltic states as to who will fart the loudest towards Russia.
That's why we look for their competition in this case - to make some noise in EU.

PolishKhalsa

11-16-2006, 11:03 AM

....

So I must ask you to shove it...again. We only accepted you for the very point that with the eastern countries in, the Euro value would have been balanced in regard to the inflating monetary basket we had during 2003/2005.

If not just ask youself why aren't your workes welcome in most countries of the EU?

There was a little more than that:

Markets to sell their goods.
Cheap labour (regulated mind you not everyone at once ).
Growth of EU. The bigger the common market the better chances to compete with China, US and India.
Germany did not support Poland’s EU accession because it felt generous
(as many in Germany think ) it needed Poland to grow the German economy.
Everyone wants to be surrounded by strong and stable economies. This is also why Poland tries to pull Ukraine into EU as fast as possible.
But that is off topic anyways.

Igor01

11-16-2006, 11:27 AM

Everyone wants to be surrounded by strong economies and this is also why Poland tries to pull Ukraine into EU as fast as possible.
But that is off topic anyways.

Poland's motives for being with Ukrainian affairs are far from altruistic, this meddling achieves a number of important objectives:

1. Increases Poland's role in European affairs;
2. Decreases Russia's role in European affairs and undermines Russia's position in an area of its traditional sphere of influence;
3. Reaffirms Poland's role as a US's trojan horse in the EU and scores browny points with the Polish political elite's "spiritual masters" in Washington who would rather take care of points 1 and 2 via a proxy;
4. Gives Poland points of leverage in dealing with Russia on other issues like the Polish foodstuffs imports;
5. Last but not least, creates an appearance that the Polish leadership is conducting its own foreign policy for the benefit of the Polish people even if this has to clash with the EU bureaucrats; this is an important factor in keeping the electorate content although it appears that even such desperate "acts of bravery" won't save the PiS clowns.

*^*

11-16-2006, 11:44 AM

5. Last but not least, creates an appearance that the Polish leadership is conducting its own foreign policy for the benefit of the Polish people even if this has to clash with the EU bureaucrats; this is an important factor in keeping the electorate content although it appears that even such desperate "acts of bravery" won't save the PiS clowns.

I voted for PiS just few days ago :).

PolishKhalsa

11-16-2006, 11:49 AM

Poland's motives for being with Ukrainian affairs are far from altruistic, this meddling achieves a number of important objectives:

1. Increases Poland's role in European affairs;
2. Decreases Russia's role in European affairs and undermines Russia's position in an area of its traditional sphere of influence;
3. Reaffirms Poland's role as a US's trojan horse in the EU and scores browny points with the Polish political elite's "spiritual masters" in Washington who would rather take care of points 1 and 2 via a proxy;
4. Gives Poland points of leverage in dealing with Russia on other issues like the Polish foodstuffs imports;
5. Last but not least, creates an appearance that the Polish leadership is conducting its own foreign policy for the benefit of the Polish people even if this has to clash with the EU bureaucrats; this is an important factor in keeping the electorate content although it appears that even such desperate "acts of bravery" won't save the PiS clowns.

Lets just agree to disagree. :)

PS. Belive me if Russia was big, democratic, stable and strong economically and shared the same democratic values with Poland. Poland would be more than happy to be Russia's trojan horse in EU. Unfortunately currently Russia is only big.

Flamming_Python

11-16-2006, 12:15 PM

Sergei

11-16-2006, 12:22 PM

Mr Gently Benevolent

11-16-2006, 12:33 PM

I think Poland should back down the pathogenic bacteria riddled meat issue and just clean their food industry up big time, I speak with some authority on this issue as I have spent the last 6 weeks trying to convince my Polish employees that going to the ****ter with your food processing gear on is very unhygienic.:cantbeli:

Igor01

11-16-2006, 12:42 PM

Lets just agree to disagree. :)
...
Poland would be more than happy to be Russia's trojan horse in EU. Unfortunately currently Russia is only big.

Alas, historically Poland and Russia were always pitted against each other's geopolitical interests. This is not about to change, Russia will continue to push its weight around (like everybody else who has interests and weight) and get mildly annoyed at Poland's periodical cavalry attacks not backed up by any real political of economical influence or even any significant EU members' support.

No doubt, Poland is an important player on the European arena but its importance tends to be overestimated by the country's leadership. They also usually sacrifice the potential for long-term strategical gains for some questionable "here and now" benefits that don't last and cause big problems later on when political atmosphere around Poland changes.

I can only attribute such behavioural pattern to Poland's very unfortunate geostrategical position between Scylla and Charybdes (Germany and Russia) and the need to constantly adopt to the situation to retain independence and extract maximum benefit from whatever the situation is at a particular moment in history. Problem is - Poland cannot afford a truly strategic national course (its position is too vulnarable and it lacks real influence) and thus is forced to resort to constant tactical manoeuvreing which in turn leads to Poland being percieved by the large players with more or less constant interests to be a whiny, finicky and unreliable partner.

Having said that, we all have to realize that neither Poland or Russia are going away any time soon so compromises have to be worked out. Unfortunately, compromises usually tend to favour the side with more real leverage.

Flamming_Python

11-16-2006, 12:51 PM

Lets just agree to disagree. :)

PS. Belive me if Russia was big, democratic, stable and strong economically and shared the same democratic values with Poland. Poland would be more than happy to be Russia's trojan horse in EU. Unfortunately currently Russia is only big.

Let's just put it this way about what I would like...

"Uhhhh.... Waiter, could I please order some more of that Polish WHINE"

"Sorry sir, we're all out" p-)

Trojan horse is unneccessery. But there exists the possibility for Poland to act as more of a bridge between the EU and Russia, rather than burning them all the time. ;)

Alas, historically Poland and Russia were always pitted against each other's geopolitical interests. This is not about to change, Russia will continue to push its weight around (like everybody else who has interests and weight) and get mildly annoyed at Poland's periodical cavalry attacks not backed up by any real political of economical influence or even any significant EU members' support.

Funny about how at no time in history have Russia and Poland ever co-operated.

Friendly Fire

11-16-2006, 01:52 PM

There was a little more than that:

Markets to sell their goods.
Cheap labour (regulated mind you not everyone at once ).
Growth of EU. The bigger the common market the better chances to compete with China, US and India.
Germany did not support Poland’s EU accession because it felt generous
(as many in Germany think ) it needed Poland to grow the German economy.
Everyone wants to be surrounded by strong and stable economies. This is also why Poland tries to pull Ukraine into EU as fast as possible.
But that is off topic anyways.

Now you've really got out of your mind.
Markets? What markets...even with you out of the EU we were selling goods (of dubious quality) to you. Even better with you begging us to enter we could sell possibly every left over just because it was stamped "Made in EU". We broke our own rules by letting you in.

Who said bigger markets are better? No no quantity prevails when quality is absent...The polish average income PPP wise is half the one of Western european one...The Polish real income is one third of the european one. Proportionally Turkey would have been a far better deal than Poland+rest of the lot (except for Slovenia and Czech Rep.).

Quality wise look at Japan! Then what the size of our market has to do with costs...your workers still earn the quadruple of the chinese institutionnal wage while that wage is already up to four times higher than the normal chinese wages on private businesses!

See cost wise the Eastern europeans are only a quick fix, structurally speaking they're even worse since they sap the minimal wages by their "competivity" and degrade working conditions. Our bosses are to be held responsible for this I agree. But our objectives are not to compete on the same level with China or India...No sir we must keep our advantage in high tech and R&D (already a dent to Free Trade).

No look at the US they Don't want to have strong and stable economies sourrounding them (Canada is an exception that confirms the rule). What are you smoking, your bible?

PolishKhalsa

11-16-2006, 01:53 PM

Let's just put it this way about what I would like...

"Uhhhh.... Waiter, could I please order some more of that Polish WHINE"

"Sorry sir, we're all out"

Yes polish wine sucks but what would you drink if we did not give you vodka? p-)

PolishKhalsa

11-16-2006, 03:02 PM

Now you've really got out of your mind.
Markets? What markets...even with you out of the EU we were selling goods (of dubious quality) to you. Even better with you begging us to enter we could sell possibly every left over just because it was stamped "Made in EU". We broke our own rules by letting you in.

Who said bigger markets are better?

Basic economic reality.

No no quantity prevails when quality is absent...

Quality can be easily thought. How many new car factories opened in West Germany in recent years?

The polish average income PPP wise is half the one of Western european one...The Polish real income is one third of the european one. Proportionally Turkey would have been a far better deal than Poland+rest of the lot (except for Slovenia and Czech Rep.).

Then what the size of our market has to do with costs...your workers still earn the quadruple of the chinese institutionnal wage while that wage is already up to four times higher than the normal chinese wages on private businesses!

But China or India do not border with Germany. You still have a chance to admit Turkey to EU but some how you have big problems with that.

Quality wise look at Japan!

Yes I see. A lot of overworked people paying $10 per cup of coffee and begging China to open just a small fraction of their market to them.

See cost wise the Eastern europeans are only a quick fix, structurally speaking they're even worse since they sap the minimal wages by their "competivity" and degrade working conditions. Our bosses are to be held responsible for this I agree. But our objectives are not to compete on the same level with China or India...No sir we must keep our advantage in high tech and R&D (already a dent to Free Trade).

Do you think Chinese and Indians are stupid? How long are you going to hold your technological advantage?

No look at the US they Don't want to have strong and stable economies sourrounding them (Canada is an exception that confirms the rule). What are you smoking, your bible?

Now this is really funny. NAFTA is just to keep Mexico in the dark ages. p-)

I'mOnlyHalfPolish

11-16-2006, 03:10 PM

Now this is really funny. NAFTA is just to keep Mexico in the dark ages. p-)

yeah friendly fire is right...our number three trading partner is mexico...yep...we're trying to keep them in the dark...(this is a good spot for one of those rolling eyes faces if i knew how to put them on here) yes the number one and number two trading partners of the largest economy in the world AREN'T stable economies (once again a good spot for rolling eyes)

don't worry...the germans love the turks...just make sure they can only immigrate to their country, then they wont have to worry about poland (another opportunity for the rolling eyes)

Smok

11-16-2006, 03:17 PM

Flamming_Python

11-16-2006, 03:18 PM

Yes polish wine sucks but what would you drink if we did not give you vodka? p-)

I think you missed the hint p-)

PolishKhalsa

11-16-2006, 03:27 PM

Using heavy artilery against Russia was quite good idea. Also France supported polish veto. Suddenly Russia declared that "we are able to reach a compromise with Poland in weeks or even days". It is very strange because few weeks ago Russia didn't want to talk with us.
So... If you want to talk with Russia take big bludgeon with you. Slap Russia once or twice and then start talking. Unfortunatelly it is still the only way to communicate with that country.
Aricle in polish
http://wiadomosci.onet.pl/1435267,12,item.html

Do not worry the moment we remove the veto. Russia will start having technical communication problems or will demand that every pig in Poland fill out a veterinary certificate by hand (or maybe foot) in Russian and sign a sworn statement that it is free of disease before it gets slaughtered.

*^*

11-16-2006, 03:29 PM

We broke our own rules by letting you in.

Because in Poland you can't **** your boyfriend on the street like at home or what ?

Xaito

11-16-2006, 03:37 PM

Using heavy artilery against Russia was quite good idea. Also France supported polish veto. Suddenly Russia declared that "we are able to reach a compromise with Poland in weeks or even days". It is very strange because few weeks ago Russia didn't want to talk with us.
So... If you want to talk with Russia take big bludgeon with you. Slap Russia once or twice and then start talking.

yeah great job - you are real heroes for blackmailing russia by abusing the EU membership.
Imo Poland will lose respect in the EU with this kind of actions - time will show if Im right.

Flamming_Python

11-16-2006, 03:40 PM

Using heavy artilery against Russia was quite good idea. Also France supported polish veto. Suddenly Russia declared that "we are able to reach a compromise with Poland in weeks or even days". It is very strange because few weeks ago Russia didn't want to talk with us.
So... If you want to talk with Russia take big bludgeon with you. Slap Russia once or twice and then start talking. Unfortunatelly it is still the only way to communicate with that country.
Aricle in polish
http://wiadomosci.onet.pl/1435267,12,item.html

Well this isn't on now is it?

I'm all for dialog and compromise, but not as a result of Polands blackmail...

Igor01

11-16-2006, 03:40 PM

If you want to talk with Russia take big bludgeon with you. Slap Russia once or twice and then start talking. Unfortunatelly it is still the only way to communicate with that country.

Russia never closed the communication process, they simply stated that Poland must rectify the massive certification forgeries, and the result must be verified by a panel of experts from both countries (much like a similar dispute was resolved with Latvia).

I think you greatly overestimate the effect of Poland's actions, this would be a "slap" if it carried any real threat of disrupting or halting Russia-EU partnership process, which is not even remotely the case here.

PolishKhalsa

11-16-2006, 03:42 PM

*^*

11-16-2006, 03:42 PM

Imo Poland will lose respect in the EU with this kind of actions - time will show if Im right.

First I have never seen any "respect for Poland" in EU, second - I preffer to have no "repect" than get for kissing rotten EU's ass.

Smok

11-16-2006, 03:51 PM

yeah great job - you are real heroes for blackmailing russia by abusing the EU membership.
Imo Poland will lose respect in the EU with this kind of actions - time will show if Im right.

I don't think that we are heroes. But we don't want to be a doormet in UE. We have our interests and we will defend it. Old UE members thought that Poland will be some kind of slave - quiet, obedient and kickable. Sorry we won't be. We will not gain respect by being quiet, passive and cowardly.

I don't like way we did it, but other european countries didn't want to help us so we blackmailed whole agreement. Next time old UE and Russia members will not ignore us.

Smok

11-16-2006, 03:53 PM

Well this isn't on now is it?

I'm all for dialog and compromise, but not as a result of Polands blackmail...

I too. But no one wanted to talk with us. They told "shut up Poland, we will not listen to you." So if you don't listen we will force you to listen.

Smok

11-16-2006, 03:55 PM

Russia never closed the communication process, they simply stated that Poland must rectify the massive certification forgeries, and the result must be verified by a panel of experts from both countries (much like a similar dispute was resolved with Latvia).

I think you greatly overestimate the effect of Poland's actions, this would be a "slap" if it carried any real threat of disrupting or halting Russia-EU partnership process, which is not even remotely the case here.

Oh yes? So Russian sollution was: "do what we want and we will see what we can do for you"? Sorry - this doesn't work. We can talk, but like partners not like slave and master.

Igor01

11-16-2006, 04:00 PM

I don't think that we are heroes. But we don't want to be a doormet in UE. We have our interests and we will defend it. Old UE members thought that Poland will be some kind of slave - quiet, obedient and kickable. Sorry we won't be. We will not gain respect by being quiet, passive and cowardly.

I don't like way we did it, but other european countries didn't want to help us so we blackmailed whole agreement. Next time old UE and Russia members will not ignore us.

That's exactly the impression the jokers from PiS want you to get. One doesn't get far in international affairs by threats and blackmail unless those are backed by some real-world economic and political influence.

Igor01

11-16-2006, 04:03 PM

Oh yes? So Russian sollution was: "do what we want and we will see what we can do for you"? Sorry - this doesn't work. We can talk, but like partners not like slave and master.

The Russian suggestion was "Clean up your act, get rid of certification forgeries like anybody in their sane mind who wants other to buy their products and then we'll lift the ban." Hysterical twitching and noise-making is hardly justified here, much like the slave and master references you are making.

Smok

11-16-2006, 04:06 PM

That's exactly the impression the jokers from PiS want you to get. One doesn't get far in international affairs by threats and blackmail unless those are backed by some real-world economic and political influence.

I know, but we have no other way. Maybe our blackmail tactic will make, that someone will listen what we want to say, because they will want to avoid another polish blackmail.

BTW I hate PiS.

Smok

11-16-2006, 04:09 PM

The Russian suggestion was "Clean up your act, get rid of certification forgeries like anybody in their sane mind who wants other to buy their products and then we'll lift the ban." Hysterical twitching and noise-making is hardly justified here, much like the slave and master references you are making.

OK, but why do Russia makes double standarts for pigs from France (member of UE) and from Poland (member of UE)? Just because these are polish pigs p-)

Igor01

11-16-2006, 04:11 PM

OK, but why do Russia makes double standarts for pigs from France (member of UE) and from Poland (member of UE)? Just because these are polish pigs p-)

French pigs don't come with forged veterinary certificates, how's that reason for a start?

Smok

11-16-2006, 04:19 PM

French pigs don't come with forged veterinary certificates, how's that reason for a start?

The problem is, that polish pig's factories (I don't know english word :D) have to fulfil EU standarts. French ones too. So our factories almost identical - same hygienic standarts etc. So why french ones are good for russian ispectors and polish ones aren't? Polish ones are good even for japanese inspectors and we can sell our pork to Japan, but Russia says "polish pigs are bad".
BTW we sell our pork to France and they like it :D

Friendly Fire

11-16-2006, 04:21 PM

Because in Poland you can't **** your boyfriend on the street like at home or what ?

Read the EU reports friend...

On Polish Khlasa...ready to get a beat up?

Ok. First ... You spoke about New car factories opening in West Germany...fair enough. Who buys these new cars and in wich proportions?

Basic economic reality? Bigger markets are better? Compare Belgium and Poland...

No don't even bother...

China or India don't border Germany...Yet the shipment price is nowhere near the Cost in excess of Polish built cars for instance! See basic economical realities.

Yes you see Japan is that overworked crowd that pays 10 bucks a cup of coffie! That's called your future,if you want to stay competitive...But at least it clearly proves my point on inflation! Now how much time will be stay afloat over the crowd. There is an historical word that says that anything that flies, some day goes down! Guess that word has a basis somewhere! But we will try to stay ahead as long as we'll have our dear patents running and as long we'll have the best money sucking speculative products! Yes because that's what you didn't get. We own the Financial structure...the money is ours.

Nafta...oh free trade? Free trade works like this. It's a boxing match open to any one! This means Joe Gutierrez 50 lbs is going to face John Doe 500 lbs!

Number three trading partner Mejico? Why don't we get a look at their trading because that is china for the year 2005, I'm affaraid. See the CIA FB and do the math. Ohh poor kids...

Plus see what they do export, or better say reexport.:roll:

"Every Day I greased my rifle so that my neighbour could see it. Before I was affraid of him catching me without protection, now I'm scared of him stealing my gun. Now I don't grease my gun in front of him."

Get a look on the Mejican numbers IAOHP! They have no other trading partner...dark ages it is!:roll:

Igor01

11-16-2006, 04:37 PM

The problem is, that polish pig's factories (I don't know english word :D) have to fulfil EU standarts. French ones too. So our factories almost identical - same hygienic standarts etc.

It that were the case, your producers wouldn't need fake certificates, now would they?

...but Russia says "polish pigs are bad".

Again, all Russia is saying - "forged certs are no good".

P.S. Man, you really should reexamine that victim complex of yours...

Xaito

11-16-2006, 04:40 PM

Old UE members thought that Poland will be some kind of slave - quiet, obedient and kickable. Sorry we won't be. We will not gain respect by being quiet, passive and cowardly.

Nobody wants you to earn respect by being passive and cowardly - but you could earn real respect by being active AND constructive - working with the EU instead of against it.

First I have never seen any "respect for Poland" in EU, second - I preffer to have no "repect" than get for kissing rotten EU's ass.
yes thats exactly the attitude your country has at the moment - you guys are afraid of EU and the results of that is what we see at the moment.

Oh yes? So Russian sollution was: "do what we want and we will see what we can do for you"? Sorry - this doesn't work. We can talk, but like partners not like slave and master.
its more like one hand washes the other - thats how things go unless youre close friends dont excpect to get anything for free.

Friendly Fire

11-16-2006, 04:52 PM

Nobody wants you to earn respect by being passive and cowardly - but you could earn real respect by being active AND constructive - working with the EU instead of against it.

yes thats exactly the attitude your country has at the moment - you guys are afraid of EU and the results of that is what we see at the moment.

its more like one hand washes the other - thats how things go unless youre close friends dont excpect to get anything for free.

I love your mauser!p-)

PolishKhalsa

11-16-2006, 04:54 PM

Friendly Fire

11-16-2006, 04:59 PM

I suggest economy 101. It is a very good course.

And I suggest "Elements d'Economie Politique" from Jacques Nagels. As starter.

*^*

11-16-2006, 05:32 PM

yes thats exactly the attitude your country has at the moment - you guys are afraid of EU and the results of that is what we see at the moment.

Yep. EU scares us like hell.:cantbeli:

Actually most of people here (including me) voted for membership in EU. And we love to suck money out of It. :)rofl

*^*

11-16-2006, 05:33 PM

Compare Belgium and Poland...

So go and compare.

Flamming_Python

11-16-2006, 05:41 PM

Oh yes? So Russian sollution was: "do what we want and we will see what we can do for you"? Sorry - this doesn't work. We can talk, but like partners not like slave and master.

Repeating the party line I see? Poor slave and evil master. When me or the others like to point out some errors in your line of reasoning, like the case with Latvia I posted earlier, or the matter of the forged certificates, it simply gets ignored.

What the hell are you talking about? When has the Russian Federation tried to "lord" over you. Must be easy for the Polish government. They can justify any action, or explain any situation, by saying "look at them, they are the bad guys".

We have done nothing wrong, it's all Russia's fault...
EU membership not working out as planned? It's Because of Russia...
Economy not performing as well? Our eastern neighbours must be at it again...

Russia Russia Russia Russia. I have the feeling that it's soon going to become the only word in the Polish political vocabularly (along with the occasional mention of Belarus, Germany and the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact).

When, since 1991, has Russia acted as the master towards Poland? Please enlighten me with an example, as I would really love to hear about it.

We said nothing when you broke away from the Warsaw pact. Nothing when you joined NATO. Nothing when you joined the EU. We said nothing, as it was none of our business. When the revolution in Ukraine happened, that's when it became our business, and we realised that we can not rely on these old tensions to go away by themselves. We realised that there are people who are determined to undermine Russia's influence at any cost (and i'm not saying it's neccesserily mainly the Poles or only the Poles). We realised that some people are determined to cause the break-up of the Russian Federation itself (go ask some Ukrainian Nationalists if you doubt me).

Some people are determined to weaken Russia for their own gains, and they do this by playing on the old emotional animosities of people who were under the thumb of the Soviet Union. The Soviet Union is of course, synonomous with Russia. Putin is ex-KGB. Therefore: Putin = Soviet Union. Very easy conclusion to draw, I would imagine, and a very dangerous one...

*^*

11-16-2006, 05:45 PM

We said nothing when you broke away from the Warsaw pact. Nothing when you joined NATO.

You were born yesterday or was just locked in some dungeon for many years ?

Flamming_Python

11-16-2006, 05:53 PM

You were born yesterday or was just locked in some dungeon for many years ?

We made no actions, that's what I was trying to get at. Of course any country would be upset that things are slipping away from its orbit.

Friendly Fire

11-16-2006, 05:57 PM

So go and compare.

I've already compared...and frankly I do understand a lot of your conationals that get here to work!

*^*

11-16-2006, 05:59 PM

I've already compared...and frankly I do understand a lot of your conationals that get here to work!

Small **** complex or just reality and your boyfriend complain ?

Friendly Fire

11-16-2006, 06:04 PM

Small **** complex or just reality and your boyfriend complain ?

If by boyfriend you mean Tasha my hungarian wife, dunno you should ask her. Seems she finds that small is beautiful!

PolishKhalsa

11-16-2006, 06:36 PM

Read the EU reports friend...

On Polish Khlasa...ready to get a beat up?

Ok. First ... You spoke about New car factories opening in West Germany...fair enough. Who buys these new cars and in wich proportions?

Basic economic reality? Bigger markets are better? Compare Belgium and Poland...

No don't even bother...

China or India don't border Germany...Yet the shipment price is nowhere near the Cost in excess of Polish built cars for instance! See basic economical realities.

Yes you see Japan is that overworked crowd that pays 10 bucks a cup of coffie! That's called your future,if you want to stay competitive...But at least it clearly proves my point on inflation! Now how much time will be stay afloat over the crowd. There is an historical word that says that anything that flies, some day goes down! Guess that word has a basis somewhere! But we will try to stay ahead as long as we'll have our dear patents running and as long we'll have the best money sucking speculative products! Yes because that's what you didn't get. We own the Financial structure...the money is ours.

Nafta...oh free trade? Free trade works like this. It's a boxing match open to any one! This means Joe Gutierrez 50 lbs is going to face John Doe 500 lbs!

Number three trading partner Mejico? Why don't we get a look at their trading because that is china for the year 2005, I'm affaraid. See the CIA FB and do the math. Ohh poor kids...

Plus see what they do export, or better say reexport.:roll:

"Every Day I greased my rifle so that my neighbour could see it. Before I was affraid of him catching me without protection, now I'm scared of him stealing my gun. Now I don't grease my gun in front of him."

Get a look on the Mejican numbers IAOHP! They have no other trading partner...dark ages it is!:roll:

Listen Friendly Fire I do not want to offend you but you simply do not make much sense or at least seem very naive.
1. Eventually the new economies will be able to buy german cars in greater quantities and it is better not to have any tariffs when you are selling.
2. Yes Polands economy will be bigger than Belgums simply because there is more people in poland and now that it has similar conditions to develop in time this will happen.
3. There is a lot of very smart people in India, China, Russia, US and even in Poland. These people will be comming up with new ideas and have their patents that you will want to buy.
4. Money does not stay in one place forever. Fortunes are won and lost everyday.
5. and really US really wants for Mexico to have a well off and stable economy because they want to sell to Mexico as well as to buy from Mexico and it is much better to do it with someone that is rich and predictable.

PolishKhalsa

11-16-2006, 06:43 PM

Double post

Musashi

11-16-2006, 06:47 PM

Thank you Flamming_Python for your civilized way of discussion. I like your arguments even as a Pole.

In terms of the Polish meat exports, I did a little reading, which has shown that Poland exports $3,960 million worth of goods to Russia as of 2005 (compared to $1,300 million in 2002). Of that 3,960 million, the meat exports account for $40 million tops.
According to the Polish TV we lost $300 million in the last 12 months because of the ban. Does our TV cheat us? :)

I'm sure that if Russia wanted to harm Poland, it could do a lot better than banning less than 1% of it's exports to the Motherland,[...]
Yes, it's true and it's a very good point, however the number seems to be higher than just 1%
Besides you import a lot of Belorussian products from the polluted Chernobyl (Gomelskaya Oblast') region and you don't see anything wrong in that. Many Polish products go to Russia by proxies anyway (for example apples by Moldova).

Friendly Fire

11-16-2006, 07:23 PM

Listen Friendly Fire I do not want to offend you but you simply do not make much sense or at least seem very naive.
1. Eventually the new economies will be able to buy german cars in greater quantities and it is better not to have any tariffs when you are selling.
2. Yes Polands economy will be bigger than Belgums simply because there is more people in poland and now that it has similar conditions to develop in time this will happen.
3. There is a lot of very smart people in India, China, Russia, US and even in Poland. These people will be comming up with new ideas and have their patents that you will want to buy.
4. Money does not stay in one place forever. Fortunes are won and lost everyday.
5. and really US really wants for Mexico to have a well off and stable economy because they want to sell to Mexico as well as to buy from Mexico and it is much better to do it with someone that is rich and predictable.

Well actually no...damn some one speaks about naivety? Economy has it's own rules? While demography can be a good point taken on the path to growth, relatively smaller countries (learn some history) like Belgium have been industrializing far more quickly than way larger countries like Germany. Then in order to sell german cars you need a real demand.

In order for the "New economies" (what's that?) to buy more german cars you need first time. Time in classical economical policies was won by two different (opposing?) means.

Either an Export-Oriented Economy, either a protectionist phase in order to prepare the local economy to world competition! And what's happening in Poland nowadays? Neither of both! First Poland hasn't taken the necessary infrastructural steps (reduction of it's agrarian dependency-16% of the workforce), reduction of it's inflatory gap (it's real inflatory gap) a complete rehauling of it's infrastructures, lessening of FDI in favour of NDI! things that given the current rate of exodus and the combined UNP/UNDP ratio simply make you scream!

You say that by numbers you'll outweight Belgium...why not! But the point is that in order to do that you need financial assets. Basically belgium has been able to keep it's economy largely unhindedred by the most recent labor strifes thanks to it's financial assets!

Do you have something else than pure rhetorics to oppose me?

No because the 3d and 4th points are pure joy! Fortunes are lost? Who spoke about Fortunes? No, we own the rules of the game. Do you know what Center/Periphery relations are?

The USA is actively exporting Capital goods, services, and consumption goods to Mexico at a combined ratio of 54% of the 224 billion USD Mexico is importing! And the US sucks 87% of the 213 billion USD mexico exports! See the US is holding mexico by it's balls! That's free trade for sure.

Yeah someday, a dude told us, Capitalism will eventually crumble, well it also applies to your rhetorics! Someday the Centre would not afford to outweight the R&D Iratio the ROW puts on the balance. However as we, the Centre, are the purveyors of 85% of the world's scientific litterature and research I think it's fair enough to say we've rigged the game!

See that's how the world is today. Starting from there your points are banalities and daydreaming used to make you wait patiently for Godot!

I'mOnlyHalfPolish

11-16-2006, 07:43 PM

Read the EU reports friend...

On Polish Khlasa...ready to get a beat up?

Ok. First ... You spoke about New car factories opening in West Germany...fair enough. Who buys these new cars and in wich proportions?

Basic economic reality? Bigger markets are better? Compare Belgium and Poland...

Yes you see Japan is that overworked crowd that pays 10 bucks a cup of coffie! That's called your future,if you want to stay competitive...But at least it clearly proves my point on inflation! Now how much time will be stay afloat over the crowd. There is an historical word that says that anything that flies, some day goes down! Guess that word has a basis somewhere! But we will try to stay ahead as long as we'll have our dear patents running and as long we'll have the best money sucking speculative products! Yes because that's what you didn't get. We own the Financial structure...the money is ours.

Nafta...oh free trade? Free trade works like this. It's a boxing match open to any one! This means Joe Gutierrez 50 lbs is going to face John Doe 500 lbs!

Number three trading partner Mejico? Why don't we get a look at their trading because that is china for the year 2005, I'm affaraid. See the CIA FB and do the math. Ohh poor kids...

Plus see what they do export, or better say reexport.:roll:

"Every Day I greased my rifle so that my neighbour could see it. Before I was affraid of him catching me without protection, now I'm scared of him stealing my gun. Now I don't grease my gun in front of him."

Get a look on the Mejican numbers IAOHP! They have no other trading partner...dark ages it is!:roll:

yeah german car manufacturers are doing great...http://www.thecarconnection.com/index.asp?article=7663

poland v. belgium

GDP belgium $322.3 billion (2005 est.)
GDP poland $505.2 billion (2005 est.)
www.cia.gov
does that even matter when public debt is "100%" in belgium go to the factbook and read the introduction paragraph under economy

japan's inflation was actually caused by their protectionist stance...prices rose because they were unwilling to import goods and weren't trading bilaterally...now its bit them in the ass

as far as your claim that china is number three...you're actually wrong...look here the numbers are accurate as of 2006...pay particular attention to trade for the yr...http://www.census.gov/foreign-trade/top/dst/current/balance.html
it seems GASP! that mexico is number 2 after number one canada

yes NAFTA has been terrible news for mexico
http://www.counterpunch.org/sandronsky05272006.html

Flamming_Python

11-16-2006, 07:52 PM

Thank you Flamming_Python for your civilized way of discussion. I like your arguments even as a Pole.

According to the Polish TV we lost $300 million in the last 12 months because of the ban. Does our TV cheat us? :)

Yes, it's true and it's a very good point, however the number seems to be higher than just 1%
Besides you import a lot of Belorussian products from the polluted Chernobyl (Gomelskaya Oblast') region and you don't see anything wrong in that. Many Polish products go to Russia by proxies anyway (for example apples by Moldova).

No problem about the civilised discussion. There are some intelligent Poles here on this forum who I respect, because even though I may have a difference of opinion with them, they do try to see things from the Russian perspective, and that consenquently motivates me to try to see it from theirs.

It seems I was wrong about the figures, though I got them from a usually reliable source. But just out of interest, how were those figures of $300 million estimated? Also keep in mind, that Russian trade with all countries is growing at a very fast rate (exponentially to a certain point), so the 2005 figures I posted earlier for the total Polish-Russian trade are not going to be accurate for today.

I don't know about the imports from Chernobyl. I have certainly never heard about it, but it is possible. However, it is well acknolowged that there is a significant problem with forgeries in Russia. Not only because it could be dangerous for people's health as you point out, but because it undermines the trade of legitimate companies (both foreign and Russian).

A deal should be worked out on this, but dragging the EU into this is ridiculous in my opinion. Try to conform to our standards more if you want to sell on our markets. If Russia is genuinly refusing this sort of thing (though I see little evidence that it is), then threaten to ban our products if you must in order to give yourselves leverage, but don't jeoperdise a potentially very important energy deal in a completely unrelated field by tying up this issue into a nice, neat, political conspiracy.

If you want to increase trade with us, the wise thing would be to improve relations, rather than to degrade them further. That is, after all, the most logical thing to do, and how most countries resolve such problems. Russia reached a deal with Latvia, and about a week ago reached a compromise on U.S poultry in Russia (though I don't know the details of that).

After all, even if Poland does win this 'round, and Russia permits Polish Meat to be sold in Russia without the desired ammendments, then Russian-Polish trade will end up degrading, and investors from both countries would be cautious about investing into each other countries due to the possibility of political troubles. This may well end causing Poland to lose more money in the long term than it would have lost if it had done nothing about the Meat Ban.

To me, something stinks about this whole thing, and I don't mean the Polish meat itself :)

Friendly Fire

11-16-2006, 08:03 PM

yeah german car manufacturers are doing great...http://www.thecarconnection.com/index.asp?article=7663

poland v. belgium

GDP belgium $322.3 billion (2005 est.)
GDP poland $505.2 billion (2005 est.)
www.cia.gov (http://www.cia.gov)
does that even matter when public debt is "100%" in belgium go to the factbook and read the introduction paragraph under economy

japan's inflation was actually caused by their protectionist stance...prices rose because they were unwilling to import goods and weren't trading bilaterally...now its bit them in the ass

as far as your claim that china is number three...you're actually wrong...look here the numbers are accurate as of 2006...pay particular attention to trade for the yr...http://www.census.gov/foreign-trade/top/dst/current/balance.html
it seems GASP! that mexico is number 2 after number one canada

yes NAFTA has been terrible news for mexico
http://www.counterpunch.org/sandronsky05272006.html

Funny I love when you compare PPP wise our two countries...no because you know that the polish hold those 500 billion PPP only in Poland. Hehe that how you showed your ignorance. Do you know what Purchase Power Parity is half polish?

But In order for you to show your bias...you should have mentionned it.

The truth...

Economy - overview:

GDP (purchasing power parity):

$322.3 billion (2005 est.)
GDP (official exchange rate):

$350.3 billion (2005 est.)
GDP - real growth rate:

1.5% (2005 est.)
GDP - per capita (PPP):

$31,100 (2005 est.)
GDP - composition by sector:

agriculture: 1%
industry: 24%
services: 74.9% (2004 est.)

Poland...That's a hit!

GDP (purchasing power parity):

$505.2 billion (2005 est.)

GDP (official exchange rate):

$246.2 billion (2005 est.)
GDP - real growth rate:

3.4% (2005 est.)
GDP - per capita (PPP):

$13,100 (2005 est.)
GDP - composition by sector:

agriculture: 5%
industry: 31.1%

services: 64% (2005 est.)
Labor force:

17.1 million (2005 est.)
Labor force - by occupation:

agriculture: 16.1%
industry: 29%

services: 54.9% (2002)
Unemployment rate:

18.2% (2005 est.)

Further more according to the CIA FB (and no I'm not willing to base myself on H1 of 2006-that's so unprofessionnal to cite partial numbers) the 2005 est. were respectively at around 300 billion USD for China in total X+M trade and around 294 billion for Mexico in X+M trade!

And unfortunately for you the Japanese econmy is booming for two years now...oh and the Japanese public debt is at 160% of their GDP!

See you're exposed as a symbol of nonsese economy wise! Public debt is what the state provides with...see we got bette education than in poland, better public support for our poor and health care. It's called welfare...a pity you scrapped it, oh forgot welfare is Commie!

Edit/ have you read your own article...

I'mOnlyHalfPolish

11-16-2006, 09:27 PM

*^*

11-17-2006, 02:14 AM

The truth...

Dude, you know the reason in difference between PPP and nominal GDP ? Let's take something easy... a bottle of beer made in Poland cost 0.5 Eur and one made in Belgium 1 Eur. That doesn't make you twice richer.

Besides that info from CIA is outdated, since then Polish currency got much stronger to euro and especially dollar. And growth in 2006 is 5.5%, in 2007 should be 5.2%, in Belgium what ? 1% ? In long term Poland simply has much bigger potencial than Belgium If you like It or not.

Do you also think that China is so meaningless ? Their GDP per capita is much lower than in Poland.

Friendly Fire

11-17-2006, 02:39 AM

Dude, you know the reason in difference between PPP and nominal GDP ? Let's take something easy... a bottle of beer made in Poland cost 0.5 Eur and one made in Belgium 1 Eur. That doesn't make you twice richer.

Besides that info from CIA is outdated, since then Polish currency got much stronger to euro and especially dollar. And growth in 2006 is 5.5%, in 2007 should be 5.2%, in Belgium what ? 1% ? In long term Poland simply has much bigger potencial than Belgium If you like It or not.

Do you also think that China is so meaningless ? Their GDP per capita is much lower than in Poland.

Technically tard, if you intertwine, the Pole with 50c couldn't buy a beer in belgium and a belgian with the same 1 euro could buy two beers in poland! That's why a ****ing lot of our poeple are going eastwards where their real income triples.:-*$ I've got german colleagues that bought for a few thousand euros wonderful houses in Pest (that they couldn't even dreamt about in Brussels)! Hum you really show your indigence economy wise...

Ratios without numbers mean as much as 0. 1 to 2 there's a 100% growth, 300 to 301 well you got only a tiny 1% of growth! But the guy having the best growth rate isn't the richer of both!

So Belgium has a far greater GDP in nominative label thus it's growth would be proportionally slower. Without taking in consideration that our base values are hindered by our own people possesing numerary accounts in Luxemburg and Switzerland (when they don't own banks) to hide from our fiscal authorities. Yes that's a big problem too we have a heavy handed fiscal treatment, Poland not.

Listen the potential for growth in Poland is hampered by the lack of reforms. Undergoing those painful reforms and introducing the Euro will simply take years. When you'll be ready yor economy would have undergone a shock therapy (not mentioning the inexistance of a real fiscal collect in Poland with rampant fraudes) and would be good to be thrown away. Eventually you'd regret to have joind the EU in such horrfic state.

In Belgium the real growth rate is about 1.9-2.3% depending on what Index you base your numbers!

China meaning less? Who told that. PPP wise they are at about half your Annual income per capita while having roughly 30 time the Polish population...:-*$ you can't stand that comparision! So please back!

Sergei

11-17-2006, 03:43 AM

Repeating the party line I see? Poor slave and evil master. When me or the others like to point out some errors in your line of reasoning, like the case with Latvia I posted earlier, or the matter of the forged certificates, it simply gets ignored.

What the hell are you talking about? When has the Russian Federation tried to "lord" over you. Must be easy for the Polish government. They can justify any action, or explain any situation, by saying "look at them, they are the bad guys".

We have done nothing wrong, it's all Russia's fault...
EU membership not working out as planned? It's Because of Russia...
Economy not performing as well? Our eastern neighbours must be at it again...

Russia Russia Russia Russia. I have the feeling that it's soon going to become the only word in the Polish political vocabularly (along with the occasional mention of Belarus, Germany and the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact).

When, since 1991, has Russia acted as the master towards Poland? Please enlighten me with an example, as I would really love to hear about it.

We said nothing when you broke away from the Warsaw pact. Nothing when you joined NATO. Nothing when you joined the EU. We said nothing, as it was none of our business. When the revolution in Ukraine happened, that's when it became our business, and we realised that we can not rely on these old tensions to go away by themselves. We realised that there are people who are determined to undermine Russia's influence at any cost (and i'm not saying it's neccesserily mainly the Poles or only the Poles). We realised that some people are determined to cause the break-up of the Russian Federation itself (go ask some Ukrainian Nationalists if you doubt me).

Some people are determined to weaken Russia for their own gains, and they do this by playing on the old emotional animosities of people who were under the thumb of the Soviet Union. The Soviet Union is of course, synonomous with Russia. Putin is ex-KGB. Therefore: Putin = Soviet Union. Very easy conclusion to draw, I would imagine, and a very dangerous one...

Don't worry about Ukraine, a couple of visits of polish commies like Kwasniewski don't win points for Poland in Ukraine. Look at it that way, Russia changed, Poland didn't. If you look at the editors of the most polish newspapers they are all former commies writing anti-russian stuff just to subdue their inferiority complex.
I wounldn't pay attention to that.

For example this guy:http://www.inosmi.ru/press/230865.html

Friendly Fire

11-17-2006, 03:45 AM

yes actually i do...but please explain what the "theory" of PPP has to do with GDP...?

Maybe it has to do with polish prizes being half the ones we have in belgium and allowing you to buy inside Poland for 500 billion worth of products or to Hold with Polish indexes around 500 billion USD!

tony6

11-17-2006, 05:38 AM

Friendly Fire

11-17-2006, 05:54 AM

Provide a more reliable source...
Outdated?:roll:

Smok

11-17-2006, 07:50 AM

It that were the case, your producers wouldn't need fake certificates, now would they?

When Russia didin't want to give certyficates without real reason some polish producers bought false certyficates - probably from russian officials. But is it a reason to completely ban our pork export? Maybe we should lock our borders for russian citizens because many of them commit crimes in Poland?
I can see that collective responsibility is still used in Russia.

Nobody wants you to earn respect by being passive and cowardly - but you could earn real respect by being active AND constructive - working with the EU instead of against it.

OK. But what should we do, when EU doesn't want to help us? How cen we be "constructive" if old Europe doesn't want to listen to us? Poland can,t be agains EU, but EU can be against Poland?

ts more like one hand washes the other - thats how things go unless youre close friends dont excpect to get anything for free.

As yuo have said there will be nothnig for free. No agreement without our pork p-)

Repeating the party line I see? Poor slave and evil master. When me or the others like to point out some errors in your line of reasoning, like the case with Latvia I posted earlier, or the matter of the forged certificates, it simply gets ignored.

It was't ignored. I went to sleep :)

What the hell are you talking about? When has the Russian Federation tried to "lord" over you. Must be easy for the Polish government. They can justify any action, or explain any situation, by saying "look at them, they are the bad guys".

For example when we was joining to NATO Russia aimed nukes at Warsaw. Also cutting off gas transfer to Poland, or blocking our ships at Vistula Lagoon in weren't act of friendhip.

We have done nothing wrong, it's all Russia's fault...
EU membership not working out as planned? It's Because of Russia...
Economy not performing as well? Our eastern neighbours must be at it again...
Russia Russia Russia Russia. I have the feeling that it's soon going to become the only word in the Polish political vocabularly (along with the occasional mention of Belarus, Germany and the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact).

It isn't Russia's fault. But it is foolish to say, that Russia is completely innocent and is the biggest of our friends.

When, since 1991, has Russia acted as the master towards Poland? Please enlighten me with an example, as I would really love to hear about it.

As I said - cutting off gas transfers, aiming nukes, blocking ships, banning export. These are examples of Russias aggresive moves against Poland and attepmts to force my country to execute Russia's orders.

We said nothing when you broke away from the Warsaw pact. Nothing when you joined NATO. Nothing when you joined the EU. We said nothing, as it was none of our business. When the revolution in Ukraine happened, that's when it became our business, and we realised that we can not rely on these old tensions to go away by themselves. We realised that there are people who are determined to undermine Russia's influence at any cost (and i'm not saying it's neccesserily mainly the Poles or only the Poles). We realised that some people are determined to cause the break-up of the Russian Federation itself (go ask some Ukrainian Nationalists if you doubt me).

Are you joking? You said nothing?? Be serious!

Some people are determined to weaken Russia for their own gains, and they do this by playing on the old emotional animosities of people who were under the thumb of the Soviet Union. The Soviet Union is of course, synonomous with Russia. Putin is ex-KGB. Therefore: Putin = Soviet Union. Very easy conclusion to draw, I would imagine, and a very dangerous one...

Russia is still closer to SU than to democratic country.

Xaito

11-17-2006, 08:13 AM

As yuo have said there will be nothnig for free. No agreement without our pork
yeah and then europe will be without gas or will have to pay higher prices for it because of your meat.
whats with the meat anyway- is its quality not high enough to sell it to europe or something?

tony6

11-17-2006, 08:29 AM

kosse

11-17-2006, 08:32 AM

Funny thing - all those smartasses who want to 'prove' anything on the economy basis base on CIA data.
Why? Because it's full of **** and completely outdated so they can 'prove' their 'point'.

It has 2005 estimates for Poland. Feel free to provide official numbers of Polish government.

Better education in Belgium - my ass...
I'm sorry but according to PISA 2003 which is international and respected research your education sucks compared to Belgium. Belgium for example has the highest percentage of mathematically talented students in the word. It also beats you hands down in every category of the research.

Smok

11-17-2006, 09:16 AM

yeah and then europe will be without gas or will have to pay higher prices for it because of your meat.
whats with the meat anyway- is its quality not high enough to sell it to europe or something?

One for all and all for one - EU motto p-)

Our pork has superior quality - we sell it in whole EU, Japan, China and other countries.

*^*

11-17-2006, 10:06 AM

Listen the potential for growth in Poland is hampered by the lack of reforms. Undergoing those painful reforms and introducing the Euro will simply take years. When you'll be ready yor economy would have undergone a shock therapy (not mentioning the inexistance of a real fiscal collect in Poland with rampant fraudes) and would be good to be thrown away. Eventually you'd regret to have joind the EU in such horrfic state.

Dude, are you for real or that's just a Belgian sense of humor ? What do you know about reforms in Poland ? Like I said growth in this year IS 5.5%, in next probably about 5.2%, according to very realistic predictions in next 10-12 years should be avg ~4.8% and currency will be becoming stronger (as It does since years) so the difference between nominal and "real" GDP will be getting smaller every year. In case of "reforms" Poland in many areas is a paradise of free market compared to your choclate making "superpower".

Your "we own the money" childish stuff just shows that your mentality is that of 13 years old kid.

And China thing is exactly what you were suggesting. GDP per capita is low, so a country is "meaningless".:cantbeli:

*^*

11-17-2006, 10:09 AM

Maybe it has to do with polish prizes being half the ones we have in belgium

And how the hell is that a bad thing ?

*^*

11-17-2006, 10:14 AM

yeah and then europe will be without gas or will have to pay higher prices for it because of your meat.

If you are such a pussy and bow to Putin at any oppurtunity, the prices will be higher anyway. And If they banned your stincking cheese Chirac would be calling for war.

Xaito

11-17-2006, 10:56 AM

not acting like an assclown is not the same as bowing to Putin you know?

Friendly Fire

11-17-2006, 11:06 AM

I'm not fan of the "my **** is longer than yours" chats so I'm not interested in participating in this fascinating discussion.
However all economical statistics about Poland and how do we do when compared to EU are here (General Statistical Office):

http://www.stat.gov.pl/english/index.htm

After the recent hungarian revelations... permit me to trash can immediately any possible "local" survey or repport about your economical status.

MrX

11-17-2006, 11:42 AM

DIU

11-17-2006, 11:56 AM

If you are such a pussy and bow to Putin at any oppurtunity, the prices will be higher anyway. And If they banned your stincking cheese Chirac would be calling for war.
They are not pussies and don’t bow to Putin, they are making mutually profitable business based on the natural and historically formed specialization of labour (to avoid the unnecessary ranting about raw materials appendage etc. look at the world map – I mean the normal world map, not of the Polish origin) and try to decide the arguable questions in reasonable and rational manner (yes, Putins are quite rational people, whatever you think about it).

As a result, trade boosts, the welfare in Germany is supported despite all negative factors (in particular, I am not sure that you are positive factor), Russia redeems all Gorbachev/Eltsin debts timely and without asking any writings off (by the way, what about your debts?), the relatively cheap Russian energy and materials support competitiveness of the German industry, German investments to Russia rise, there is no mutual warmongering and bullying despite different policy and approaches in many spheres and parts of the world. And (that is important) there are no reasons why the situation can be changed in the foreseeable future. Not because of any irrational passion for ass-licking (think about your relations with USA), but because the correct preconditions entail the correct consequences. Nobody will easily ruin the important and profitable relations, this would mean to harm himself.

As a matter of fact, Russia needn’t any negotiations and new general agreements with EU now. The relations in energy issues develop quite successfully, from the Russian point of view. The trade relations also successful enough, from the Russian point of view (the Russian export to EU is almost four times higher than the import from EU). And Russia can live somehow without discussion on “human right problems”.
In other words, the new negotiations and amended economic agreements are necessary for EU first of all. Freezing the current situation meets the Russian interests.
In order to overcome this unexpected blockage the EU officials will have to ask the Russian party to satisfy the Polish “meat claims”. Possibly, it can be done (at least, temporarily), at the expense of some all-EU negotiated positions with considerable additional %.

But I wouldn’t bet that the Polish demands of financial aid will be welcomed in various European organizations after that. Earlier or later, but your scandalousness will inevitably ends in painful sensations in some delicate parts of your bodies. There are many ways to it.:oops:

DIU

11-17-2006, 12:14 PM

Official reason of Russian ban of Polish meat was not quality of Polish meat but falsification of some veterinary certificate!
According latest information of Polish IAR (Informacyjna Agencja Radiowa) agency, Polish prosecutors just finished investigation about this so-called falsification. Result is knokcdown for Russians and all anti-Polish commentators here:
-meat was not Polish but American,
-any shipment of meat never was transited by Polish territory, shipments were by sea to Lithuanian Klaypeda harbour and next transited to Russia by land,
- all documents (Polish certificates of origin, veterinary certificates etc) were falsified on Russian territory by probably Russian speaking persons (some characteristic mistakes in falsified Polish texts in documents).
For Polish users: full article in Wirtualna Polska website.
So, who first say to Poles "pardon, excuse me, I apologize you and your country and your meat"?
Even if your information is correct, it is in fact irrelevant.
Irrespective of who is wrong or right in “the meat matter”, you must have decided it bilaterally, or at least have taken all possible steps to decide it bilaterally.
Instead, even before the end of investigation in “the meat matter”, if I’ve understood correctly, you’ve blocked the EU-Russia negotiations for the whole complex of questions which are incomparably more important.

MrX

11-17-2006, 12:30 PM

Even if your information is correct, it is in fact irrelevant.
Irrespective of who is wrong or right in “the meat matter”, you must have decided it bilaterally, or at least have taken all possible steps to decide it bilaterally.
Instead, even before the end of investigation in “the meat matter”, if I’ve understood correctly, you’ve blocked the EU-Russia negotiations for the whole complex of questions which are incomparably more important.

Wrong! European Union is Union - not loose conglomerate of states - with common politics as to the details (sometimes very stupid). Russian political ban on Polish products is ban on EU products. Poland has all rights to claim that meat ban must be solved by EU. And has all rights to veto. "Punto u finito".

Igor01

11-17-2006, 01:06 PM

Russian political ban on Polish products is ban on EU products.

If that were the case you'd see other EU members voting accordingly, unfortunately (for your delusions of grandeur) this is not happening. Until it does, chanting the "all for one and one for all" mantra is just acoustic vibrations.

DIU

11-17-2006, 01:07 PM

Wrong! European Union is Union - not loose conglomerate of states - with common politics as to the details (sometimes very stupid). Russian political ban on Polish products is ban on EU products. Poland has all rights to claim that meat ban must be solved by EU. And has all rights to veto. "Punto u finito".
“EU” can not investigate if the Polish certificates are valid or faked. Only the Polish authorities can do this. Note: not “EU certificates”, but “Polish certificates”, issued by the Polish (not French or Swedish) national organizations.

Accordingly, the correct order of actions would be as follows:
- Russia submit the evidence of faked Polish documentation to Poland and impose the temporary ban on the Polish production;
- Polish authorities investigate the veracity of evidence and send the conclusion to Russia;
- Russian authorities accept the Polish conclusion and waive the ban or dispute the conclusion and send the protocol of differences to Poland;
- if the Polish party considers that the process is in deadlock or if the Russian party missed the term of consideration of the Polish conclusion, it can apply to the European organization which should pose the question on the higher level “EU-Russia”.

The real course of events turned out different:

- Russia submitted the evidence of faked Polish documentation to Poland and imposed the temporary ban on the Polish production;
- Polish government blocked the negotiations “EU-Russia” for all complex of mutual relations and additionally linked “the meat conflict” with ratification of Energy Chart by Russia;
- Polish authorities investigated the veracity of evidence and sent the conclusion to Russia.

Haven’t you feeling that the event in bold was somewhat premature, to put it mildly, and broke the orderly course of actions?

P.S. European Union is a loose conglomerate of states – possibility of your unpunished behaviour is the best proof.
P.P.S. If such “free vetoing” will continue, the destiny of EU will be the same as “Polish-Lithuanian Union” of bygone days.

paku

11-17-2006, 01:13 PM

Funny I love when you compare PPP wise our two countries...no because you know that the polish hold those 500 billion PPP only in Poland. Hehe that how you showed your ignorance. Do you know what Purchase Power Parity is half polish?

If you're so attached to Real GDP figures, there you go, by an institution much more trustworthy by it's economical data than CIA.

International Monetary Fund.
GDP in billions of dollars, exchange rate:

2004 2005 2006
Belgium 357.447 371.695 387.022
Poland 252.668 303.229 330.133

So just two years ago the distance between Poland's and Belgium's economies in was over 100 billion. This year it is less than 60 billion. So I think we can safely assume that in next 3, maximum 4 years polish economy will wave you goodbye, as it surpasses Belgium's economy in exchange rate figures.:)

And here is some reading i'm sure you'll find interesting to find out about a "backward" country.p-)
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=313474

And some nice pictures of Warsaw and it's newest project, Libeskind Tower:
http://www.zlota44tower.com/images/zdj1.jpg

http://www.michau.se/pics/my_pics/warszawa/2006/060414_z_kladki_na_polu_mokotowskim/060414_z_kladki_na_polu_mokotowskim_1180.jpg

daily666

11-17-2006, 01:27 PM

“EU” can not investigate if the Polish certificates are valid or faked. Only the Polish authorities can do this. Note: not “EU certificates”, but “Polish certificates”, issued by the Polish (not French or Swedish) national organizations.

this thread may be interesting for you

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=97432

kosse

11-17-2006, 01:33 PM

kosse

11-17-2006, 01:41 PM

Flamming_Python

11-17-2006, 01:47 PM

For example when we was joining to NATO Russia aimed nukes at Warsaw. Also cutting off gas transfer to Poland, or blocking our ships at Vistula Lagoon in weren't act of friendhip.

Interesting, could you provide more details and sources?

Russia is still closer to SU than to democratic country.

So I take it that you've been to the Soviet Union, and been to Modern Russia in order to reach such a fair and balanced conclusion?

Flamming_Python

11-17-2006, 01:49 PM

I wouldn't hold high scyscrapers as any kind of standard of living either. Every other piss poor Asian nation has glittering capitals with scyscrapers reaching the skies. The normal people live in a bit different conditions. Damn we don't have any scyscrapers in Finland but people still have higher standards of living than most countries in the world.

True enough. Moscow has about a 100 skyscrapers under construction now (along with many other Russian cities), but that only represents the fortunes of the Russian rich and middle class, not the poor which make up a good chunk of the population.

Kazakhstan has a booming economy. Their capital city, Astana, has so many skyscrapers and other projects under construction that they will easily stay on top of every Russian city, bar Moscow and possibly Ekaterinburg. However, that doesn't mean that Kazakhstans standard of living is going to be anywhere near Russia's in the future.

An effective Social Welfare model is required in order to achieve high living standards (although it may decrease raw capital growth).

PolishKhalsa

11-17-2006, 02:02 PM

Why the hell are you comparing GDPs of two countries that are totally different size?! 10 million versus 40 million...You should be comparing GDP per capita which still clearly shows that Belgium is faaar ahead of Poland. In belgium GDP per capita is almost triple to that of Poland. I'm not saying that Polish people are poor but they have much to do to get to the same level as Western European nations. Economic growth also tends to dimish the closer you get because you lose your most prominent competitive edge i.e lower salaries.

Man this disscussion got out of hand. The only reason we are comparing Belgian and Polish econimies is because Mr. Friendly Fire claimed that the size of the market does not matter when it comes to economic growth and as an example he gave Poland and Belgum. Suggesting that Poland will never catch up with Belgum. I suggest we change the comparison to Belgum and China. China not long ago had a GDP comparable to Belgum.

*^*

11-17-2006, 02:10 PM

Why the hell are you comparing GDPs of two countries that are totally different size?! 10 million versus 40 million...You should be comparing GDP per capita which still clearly shows that Belgium is faaar ahead of Poland.

Geezus... No one is saying that Poles are richer than Belgians... I admit that this discussion doesn't look very smart, but the point is someone (half Polish I think) said that Poland has a large market, big potencial etc. and then Belgian guy brought the mess supported by "brilliant" statements like... "we own the money"...

Poles are poorer than Belgians but in long term Poland simply has much much much bigger potential than Belgium. That's a simple fact.

tony6

11-17-2006, 02:14 PM

After the recent hungarian revelations... permit me to trash can immediately any possible "local" survey or repport about your economical status.
Yeah - if the argument doesn't suit you then the hell with it?
That ends any discussion wiyth you my friend.
BTW - you can find also official EU statistics there. Are they also "local" surves?

And one more thing - Russia has just announced that she is ready to cancell the ban on polish meat.

Friendly Fire

11-17-2006, 02:18 PM

Why the hell are you comparing GDPs of two countries that are totally different size?! 10 million versus 40 million...You should be comparing GDP per capita which still clearly shows that Belgium is faaar ahead of Poland. In belgium GDP per capita is almost triple to that of Poland. I'm not saying that Polish people are poor but they have much to do to get to the same level as Western European nations. Economic growth also tends to dimish the closer you get because you lose your most prominent competitive edge i.e lower salaries.

That's the PPP per cap GDP. Nominal per cap GDP is 5 times lower.

As for the argument that dosn't suit me...I'll get a look at the Eurostat numbers! Pretty sure that I'll find relevant figures.

Friendly Fire

11-17-2006, 02:20 PM

Geezus... No one is saying that Poles are richer than Belgians... I admit that this discussion doesn't look very smart, but the point is someone (half Polish I think) said that Poland has a large market, big potencial etc. and then Belgian guy brought the mess supported by "brilliant" statements like... "we own the money"...

Poles are poorer than Belgians but in long term Poland simply has much much much bigger potential than Belgium. That's a simple fact.

But that's a fact we own the financial levers that empower the Eu authorities to act accordingly with it's objectives.

paku

11-17-2006, 02:20 PM

Man this disscussion got out of hand. The only reason we are comparing Belgian and Polish econimies is because Mr. Friendly Fire claimed that the size of the market does not matter when it comes to economic growth and as an example he gave Poland and Belgum. Suggesting that Poland will never catch up with Belgum. I suggest we change the comparison to Belgum and China. China not long ago had a GDP comparable to Belgum.

I agree, there's no point in comparing Belgium to Poland.
Fiendly Fire, if you don't bother to read the link i gave you, here is just a sample of polish economy's dynamics in absorbing new investments.

...
Other companies to have spotted Poland's advantages and build assembly plants include Japan's Toshiba and Funai Electric, while LG Philips, a joint venture between LG and the Dutch group Philips, is constructing a €430m ($550.4m, £288m) factory to make the screens themselves.

Poland last year made about 20 per cent of Europe's flat-screen monitors - 1.45m units out of 6.6m, according to the economics ministry in Warsaw. However, with demand soaring, the ministry estimates that by 2010 some 75 per cent of Europe's sets will be Polish-made, 35m out of 45m units.

The boom in high-tech -television plants is only the most prominent part of a wave of inward investment. The government estimates foreign direct investment this year is likely to hit $10bn, up from $7.7bn in 2005 and close to 2004's $11.8bn record.
...
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/a60e6eb8-6ece-11db-b5c4-0000779e2340.html

So if in 2010 you're going to buy yourself a new LCD monitor or a home theater, you'll have a great chance to buy a polish made product.p-)

and some news from yesterday and today...

LCD TV factory in Lower Silesia, this time by japanese JVC.
http://gospodarka.gazeta.pl/gospodar...1,3740417.html (http://gospodarka.gazeta.pl/gospodarka/1,33181,3740417.html)

Google Research&Development center in Krakow
http://gospodarka.gazeta.pl/gospodar...7,3738152.html (http://gospodarka.gazeta.pl/gospodarka/1,68367,3738152.html)

Friendly Fire

11-17-2006, 02:21 PM

*^*

11-17-2006, 02:25 PM

But that's a fact we own the financial levers that empower the Eu authorities to act accordingly with it's objectives.

Yep. Belgium strong !!!!!!1111111111111

DIU

11-17-2006, 02:28 PM

this thread may be interesting for you

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=97432

Yes, I've read. And have found nothing new. The key question remains the same: why the investigation process was not finalized and its results agreed by both the parties BEFORE the demonstrative actions in EU, why it takes place AFTER the scandal in EU.

Even if the Russian ban was "politically motivated" (i.e. intended to protect the own producers from the foreign competition - by the way, Russia is not member of WTO), it was imposed in accordance with existing rules. The normal procedure of overcoming such bans was broken by Poland, and obviously without real necessity (who knows, may be the Russian authorities would accept the grounded conclusion of Polish experts without problems and delay).
Though this is sooner the problem of EU than Russia.

PolishKhalsa

11-17-2006, 02:29 PM

BS...CHina has always been over Belgium only by sheer numbers. And That ain't gonna change.

Quality in Belgium clearly copes for the sice of the market. That was teh main argument.

So I guess size matters after all p-).

paku

11-17-2006, 02:37 PM

That's the PPP per cap GDP. Nominal per cap GDP is 5 times lower.

That's simply wrong. Learn your maths.

GDP per capita in 2007, exchange rate
Belgium 39,331.435
Poland 9,214.267

http://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/weo/2006/02/data/weorept.aspx?sy=2007&ey=2007&scsm=1&ssd=1&sort=country&ds=.&br=1&c=124%2C964&s=NGDPDPC&grp=0&a=&pr.x=83&pr.y=8

4 times, see? Gotta admit that's a lot. But it really doesn't reflect the truth about the standard of living. PPP does it much better.

GDP per capita in 2007, PPP rate

Belgium 33,908.408
Poland 14,609.213

http://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/weo/2006/02/data/weorept.aspx?sy=2007&ey=2007&scsm=1&ssd=1&sort=country&ds=.&br=1&c=124%2C964&s=PPPPC&grp=0&a=&pr.x=89&pr.y=3

MrX

11-17-2006, 02:52 PM

Pls dont hijacking the thread!!!! It is about Polish-EU-Russian problems, not Poland-Belgium comparisons!!!!! Now this thread seems like thread from WAFF forum: who wins: 10.000 Belgian soldiers or 10.000 Chinese soldiers.... ;)

Friendly Fire

11-17-2006, 03:15 PM

I agree, there's no point in comparing Belgium to Poland.
Fiendly Fire, if you don't bother to read the link i gave you, here is just a sample of polish economy's dynamics in absorbing new investments.

So if in 2010 you're going to buy yourself a new LCD monitor or a home theater, you'll have a great chance to buy a polish made product.p-)

and some news from yesterday and today...

LCD TV factory in Lower Silesia, this time by japanese JVC.
http://gospodarka.gazeta.pl/gospodar...1,3740417.html (http://gospodarka.gazeta.pl/gospodarka/1,33181,3740417.html)

Google Research&Development center in Krakow
http://gospodarka.gazeta.pl/gospodar...7,3738152.html (http://gospodarka.gazeta.pl/gospodarka/1,68367,3738152.html)

Absorbing new investments...yes, foreign direct investments....

Plus you're probably the most FU stupid uneducated polish this planet holds!

If the the IMF says that Poland GDP grows from 250 billion (2004) dollars to 300 billion(2005)...that means a general growth of around 17% wich is not supported by any fact within the IMF report...(wich states a 5+% growth). You're full of ****.

If ^*^ could just get a look of the SDR funds Belgium owns indide the IMF as balance means you could compare. Poland is nowhere near Blegium.

Kosse the whole comparing point was sparked by our polish friedls argueing that a bigger market is always better. Wich I answered that I'd probably prefer a qualitatively high market rather than numbers for teh sake of numbers.

As for the LCD business...70% of the Bizz is owned by asian producers (55* of the displays are assembled in China) projections are one thing, reality another.

Friendly Fire

11-17-2006, 03:36 PM

That's simply wrong. Learn your maths.

GDP per capita in 2007, exchange rate
Belgium 39,331.435
Poland 9,214.267

http://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/weo/2006/02/data/weorept.aspx?sy=2007&ey=2007&scsm=1&ssd=1&sort=country&ds=.&br=1&c=124%2C964&s=NGDPDPC&grp=0&a=&pr.x=83&pr.y=8

4 times, see? Gotta admit that's a lot. But it really doesn't reflect the truth about the standard of living. PPP does it much better.

GDP per capita in 2007, PPP rate

Belgium 33,908.408
Poland 14,609.213

http://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/weo/2006/02/data/weorept.aspx?sy=2007&ey=2007&scsm=1&ssd=1&sort=country&ds=.&br=1&c=124%2C964&s=PPPPC&grp=0&a=&pr.x=89&pr.y=3

But that's only possible while remaining in your country...but let's see the 2006 numbers!

We see the 2006 numbers are 36/8.5!

Further more I see a PP reduction while Inflation in belgium is Stable...(2.1) wich does not correspond with the loss of Purchasing power (since PPP wise we loose around 1000 dollars from 2006 to 2007-off course all this based on projections*)!

But eventually your lack of understanding of your own numbers (that gross error over polish growth...see the constant prices honey is 3.5% in 2005 (comming from 2004) so I don't understand where do you find the ubergrowth of 17%!

http://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/weo/2006/02/data/weorept.aspx?sy=2005&ey=2006&scsm=1&ssd=1&sort=country&ds=.&br=1&c=124%2C964&s=NGDP_RPCH&grp=0&a=&pr.x=82&pr.y=8

Yeah I know it's called education, we got a better one in Belgium and, oh irony, evidently in Albania.

Shove it.

Smok

11-17-2006, 03:54 PM

Interesting, could you provide more details and sources?

Yes. I'm sorry, but I couldn't find any proofs about aiming nukes (but other polish forum members will say that it is true.
But here is official link from Foreign Affairs Ministry which says about moving russian tactical nukes near polish borders.
http://www.mfa.gov.pl/files/file_library/39/010116b_2523.doc - polish text only - sorry/
About Vistula Lagoon now. Our ships from port in Elblag (city) were sailing into the Baltic sea via the only one pass which is part of Russia. We had agreement with Russia from 1961 that our ships can sail across that pass. But last year Russia started to make problems because "agreement was signed with friendly country, but Poland isn't friendly anymore".
Here is short link from 2005 (in english).
http://www.polskieradio.pl/polonia/article.asp?tId=36305&j=2
Now our goverment decided that we will build our own pass into Baltic sea.
Vistula Lagoon.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vistula_Lagoon

So I take it that you've been to the Soviet Union, and been to Modern Russia in order to reach such a fair and balanced conclusion?

I mean, that your political system isn't democratic. It something like USSR + general Franco + capitalism. Of course - you don't have to be democratic country.

Sorry for bad english - I'm drunk (vodka strong!!!1111) p-)

Friendly Fire

11-17-2006, 03:58 PM

paku

11-17-2006, 04:01 PM

Plus you're probably the most FU stupid uneducated polish this planet holds!

If the the IMF says that Poland GDP grows from 250 billion (2004) dollars to 300 billion(2005)...that means a general growth of around 17% wich is not supported by any fact within the IMF report...(wich states a 5+% growth). You're full of ****.

No reason to get all worked up. I see you're a man of little faith and need a link. You just need to ask.p-)

http://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/weo/2006/02/data/weorept.aspx?sy=2003&ey=2007&scsm=1&ssd=1&sort=country&ds=.&br=1&c=124%2C964&s=NGDP_RPCH%2CNGDPD&grp=0&a=&pr.x=86&pr.y=14

So i just assumed, that you know, how to make a differance between current and constant prices. I guess I was too optimistic. It was you, who said something about education...?

*^*

11-17-2006, 04:06 PM

Plus you're probably the most FU stupid uneducated polish this planet holds!

If the the IMF says that Poland GDP grows from 250 billion (2004) dollars to 300 billion(2005)...that means a general growth of around 17% wich is not supported by any fact within the IMF report...(wich states a 5+% growth). You're full of ****.

Let me dare to improve a little bit your super duper Belgian education. The 250-300 billion thing is your beloved "real" GDP, Polish currency simply got much stronger (and is and will be in the future) in relation to $ and to smaller degree to EUR, that's the reason of that growth.

But of course I'm probably also full of something and IMF is simply a part of vast global Polish conspiracy...

*^*

11-17-2006, 04:10 PM

They are not pussies and don’t bow to Putin

Your Puti in fact told them to stick in their asses the whole "energetic chart" (or whatever that's called) and they did what ? Nothing.

Friendly Fire

11-17-2006, 04:35 PM

Let me dare to improve a little bit your super duper Belgian education. The 250-300 billion thing is your beloved "real" GDP, Polish currency simply got much stronger (and is and will be in the future) in relation to $ and to smaller degree to EUR, that's the reason of that growth.

But of course I'm probably also full of something and IMF is simply a part of vast global Polish conspiracy...

Now the real GDP dumkopf is the one calculated upon Cst Prices...This is the nominal one. And that's what your frind provided me.

Now the deduction is if the Zlotych gets stronger to the US-dollar then it's your economy that gets weaker since the growth slows and your GDP gets only mathematically higher!

See if your curency gains value but that you are always under the Belgian "nominal" GDP that's because the Polish economy is struggling!

But yet again...this isn't backed up by any information...look at the NC values...

So your friend made an error and IMF is wrong on it's calculations...

If the Zloty has gained ground against the Eur. It is how ever at around 4 per one (3.800 PLN/1 Eur).

Nominal GDP (current prices): 2005 = 980 Billion PLN(IMF numbers)= 257 bln eur!

2006: (current prices) 1049 billion PLN(IMF numbers)= 276 billion eur! That's how I call BS on your numbers and on Polish growth and on the IMF record...

http://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/weo/2006/02/data/weorept.aspx?sy=2005&ey=2006&scsm=1&ssd=1&sort=country&ds=.&br=1&c=124%2C964&s=NGDP_RPCH%2CNGDP%2CNGDP_D&grp=0&a=&pr.x=76&pr.y=17

Stack it deep!

Friendly Fire

11-17-2006, 04:37 PM

No reason to get all worked up. I see you're a man of little faith and need a link. You just need to ask.p-)

http://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/weo/2006/02/data/weorept.aspx?sy=2003&ey=2007&scsm=1&ssd=1&sort=country&ds=.&br=1&c=124%2C964&s=NGDP_RPCH%2CNGDPD&grp=0&a=&pr.x=86&pr.y=14

So i just assumed, that you know, how to make a differance between current and constant prices. I guess I was too optimistic. It was you, who said something about education...?

See my calculations when it comes to current prices...

In constant prices the Deflator for poland gets creepy!:slap:

Here a link (Canuckia Rules, we all bow to the migt of Canuckia).

http://www.bankofcanada.ca/cgi-bin/famecgi_fdps

Friendly Fire

11-17-2006, 04:45 PM

I know the difference...but that's what you provided me...

If you're so attached to Real GDP figures, there you go, by an institution much more trustworthy by it's economical data than CIA.

International Monetary Fund.
GDP in billions of dollars, exchange rate:

Code:

2004 2005 2006 Belgium 357.447 371.695 387.022Poland 252.668 303.229 330.133

So just two years ago the distance between Poland's and Belgium's economies in was over 100 billion. This year it is less than 60 billion. So I think we can safely assume that in next 3, maximum 4 years polish economy will wave you goodbye, as it surpasses Belgium's economy in exchange rate figures.:-)

See you're caught with your pants down moron.

If the zloty(ch) has been growing then you should deduct a slowing down in polish economy...:bash:

Smok

11-17-2006, 04:47 PM

Taking that from a pole i'd rather kill myself if I was a russian! Your last three governments raped their electoral mandate, the curent government being the most hideous political bargainer, totally ignoring the polish will.

It is normal in post soviet coutries. Our democracy is very young and you can't compare it to british or american democracy which has 200 or 300 years. That is why we have some "young age problems".

Friendly Fire

11-17-2006, 04:51 PM

It is normal in post soviet coutries. Our democracy is very young and you can't compare it to british or american democracy which has 200 or 300 years. That is why we have some "young age problems".

It isn't normal...but after all I shouldn't take it on you. In Belgium Power bargaining is part of the system. So I guess you're not learning, you'rv already hit the bone of "democracy" and representative systems!

Sorry for the strong words, was still under influence by your conationals posts.

Cheers.

paku

11-17-2006, 05:12 PM

I know the difference...but that's what you provided me...

See you're caught with your pants down moron.

If the zloty(ch) has been growing then you should deduct a slowing down in polish economy...:bash:
Really, Sherlock...?

Could you share with me your divine knowledge and explain, why I'm supposed to deduct just that, if according to your favourite CIA site PLN has been steadily gaining ground over last five years? And after all economy has been gaining speed, no?

Exchange rates:
PLN per US dollar - 3.2355 (2005), 3.6576 (2004), 3.8891 (2003), 4.08 (2002), 4.0939 (2001)

So chew on that, Sherlockp-)

Edit: And by the way, todays exchange rate is 1 dollar = 2.95951 PLN
Do you still want to argue?

daily666

11-17-2006, 05:13 PM

So here we go with our ****s are longer than yours...

Friendly Fire

11-17-2006, 05:28 PM

Really, Sherlock...?

Could you share with me your divine knowledge and explain, why I'm supposed to deduct just that, if according to your favourite CIA site PLN has been steadily gaining ground over last five years? And after all economy has been gaining speed, no?

So chew on that, Sherlockp-)

Soo the Polish economy manages to do better while it's currency is gaining ground. The hypothesis seems great!

But...just look at the numbers. The deflatory movement that allows the Polish economy to have gained enormous ground against the Dollar (while in Euro terms it has barely gained anything) shows the Polish economy has won 50 billion in nominal current dollars from 2004 to 2005. But from 2005 to 2006 it has only won 30 billion USD despite a massive gain (from those times...)against the USD.

http://www.bankofcanada.ca/cgi-bin/famecgi_fdps

Funny enough the operations are easy: If the Polish Nominal GDP(in USD) gain slows down despite strengthening against the USD, that means that the Polish economy is improving very little in terms of real growth (constant prices) and that is nowhere near the Belgian one.

....:backhand:

Edit:
If the Zloty has gained ground against the Eur. It is how ever at around 4 per one (3.800 PLN/1 Eur).

In plain words if you manage to win less despite your prices being higher (due to your currency) that's slowing down to me!

That's a market economy to you!

Smok

11-17-2006, 05:53 PM

It isn't normal...but after all I shouldn't take it on you. In Belgium Power bargaining is part of the system. So I guess you're not learning, you'rv already hit the bone of "democracy" and representative systems!

Sorry for the strong words, was still under influence by your conationals posts.

Cheers.

There is no need to be sorry. I know that my country isn't perfect. But we try to make it better and we are looking how to avoid errors of eastern and western countries. That is why some of our decisions are "strange". But give us some time - we are going forward really fast.

Friendly Fire

11-17-2006, 06:00 PM

There is no need to be sorry. I know that my country isn't perfect. But we try to make it better and we are looking how to avoid errors of eastern and western countries. That is why some of our decisions are "strange". But give us some time - we are going forward really fast.

You should never ask from your neighbour/partner someting you don't ask to yourself. Obviously we forget this basic principle in the EU.

Welcome home, however.

DIU

11-17-2006, 07:06 PM

Your Puti in fact told them to stick in their asses the whole "energetic chart" (or whatever that's called) and they did what ? Nothing.
First, V.V. Putin is a genius and titan of thinking on the background of your twins taken together.
Second, he said the above mentioned wise words not to “them”, but to EU as a whole including your secondary state.
Third, you will have to shove the said "energetic chart" into your own arse in the same way as the other 24 members, wish you or don’t wish.
Fourth, your ridiculous attempts to avoid the procedure will make it deeper and more painful.
Fifth, the other 24 members have reasonably decided that it is necessary to seek for the mutually acceptable compromise. Who are you to oppose the will of majority? This is non-democratic behaviour, and the pain in your arse can only intensify.
Sixth, if you don’t want to buy the Russian oil, gas, nuclear fuel, aluminium, titanium, fertilizers, wood, nickel, gold, platinum and diamonds, nobody forces you. Buy oil in Iraq, build gas pipeline from Norway, construct nuclear power stations etc. etc. But it seems to me (and the experience of your last 17 “independent” years confirms it), all you can is whining, barking and ****ting under the Russian door.

daily666

11-17-2006, 07:25 PM

First, V.V. Putin is a genius and titan of thinking on the background of your twins taken together.

Nobody's saying Putin is stupid. He managed to make some reasonable and wise decitions over the years, and situation on oil markets helped him too.

Second, he said the above mentioned wise words not to “them”, but to EU as a whole including your secondary state.

We're not secondary state and I don't know why your're offending Polish people on this board? No arguments or what?

Third, you will have to shove the said [COLOR=black]"energetic chart" into your own arse in the same way as the other 24 members, wish you or don’t wish.

We'll see. EU needs Russia to provide the Gas and Oil and Russia needs EU to have a market to sell it. Where do you want to put all your production? China?

Fourth, your ridiculous attempts to avoid the procedure will make it deeper and more painful.

It's not our ridicolous attempt. Although I don't approve the way it's been done I get the idea behind it, and others too. Your country signed an agreement and never accepted it since than, pacta sunt servanda right? So why should EU believe Russia that doesn't obey the rules?

Fifth, the other 24 members have reasonably decided that it is necessary to seek for the mutually acceptable compromise. Who are you to oppose the will of majority? This is non-democratic behaviour, and the pain in your arse can only intensify.

A Russian telling about democratic behaviour, oh the irony. And there are more that actually changed their mind, look at the past few days, France and Lithuania have expressed their point of view too. But Poland seems to be a perfect scapegoat for you guys.

Sixth, if you don’t want to buy the Russian oil, gas, nuclear fuel, aluminium, titanium, fertilizers, wood, nickel, gold, platinum and diamonds, nobody forces you. Buy oil in Iraq, build gas pipeline from Norway, construct nuclear power stations etc. etc. But it seems to me (and the experience of your last 17 “independent” years confirms it), all you can is whining, barking and ****ting under the Russian door.

And wasn't Russia doing exactly the same? Maybe you don't remember but during the 90's the relations were good, they changed suddenly somewhere around year 2000, well, coincidence?

*^*

11-17-2006, 09:25 PM

Now the real GDP dumkopf is the one calculated upon Cst Prices...This is the nominal one. And that's what your frind provided me.

Now the deduction is if the Zlotych gets stronger to the US-dollar then it's your economy that gets weaker since the growth slows and your GDP gets only mathematically higher!

Now I've got a problem... You are just asking to be crushed with your idiotic stuff on the other hand I really pity you because you obviosly seem to have serious problems with yourself.

First you were claiming that GDP according to PPP is not "real" and know you say that "real" (nominal in fact) is only mathematic...

GDP counted according to PPP (so real production) is growing every year (5.5% in this one) and nominal counted in $ is growing even faster.

That's just a fact. And this is not my fault that in your mighty empire the growth is... 1%.rofl

*^*

11-17-2006, 09:27 PM

First, V.V. Putin is a genius and titan of thinking on the background of your twins taken together.
Second, he said the above mentioned wise words not to “them”, but to EU as a whole including your secondary state.

Sorry, I'm not going to get down to this primitive level, especially that there wasn't any provocation in my post.

KMS

11-17-2006, 09:50 PM

Maybe you don't remember but during the 90's the relations were good, they changed suddenly somewhere around year 2000, well, coincidence?

During 90s Russia was a safe heaven for crime and corruption, a country with no leader and no direction,it was on the path to self destruction.A lot of people in certain countries wanted to see the giant fall and they almost did...
In 2000 Russia finally, for the first time in 20 years, got an intelligent leader who is foremost concerned with the interests of the country given to him as oppose to ensuring financial wellbeing of his "family" and winning praises from the West for running his country into the ground, while staying the democracy course of course :)

Putin got Russia of its knees, he is returning the country to its usual strength, he is Russian FDR.
Suddenly Russia has a mind of its own and does what serves her best - how undemocratic and evil of her not to bow to puppet states and their master.

For 10 years Russia wanted to be a friend and an equal partner, West wanted it to be a "banana republic" with no voice. It took Russia 10 years to see through fake smiles and now it is back.
The West didn't want to have Russia as an equal friend and partner, well, now they will have Russia as a ruthless business partner.
While EU is fighting each other for the right to suck on Russia's pipe, US is getting, lets just call it - worried, about Russia selling weapons to those who don't exactly have the same vision of the NWO as they do, it turns out there are alot of countries like that.

West had a chance for friendship and declined it, lets see how it can handle survival of the fittest contest...

Friendly Fire

11-18-2006, 04:52 AM

During 90s Russia was a safe heaven for crime and corruption, a country with no leader and no direction,it was on the path to self destruction.A lot of people in certain countries wanted to see the giant fall and they almost did...
In 2000 Russia finally, for the first time in 20 years, got an intelligent leader who is foremost concerned with the interests of the country given to him as oppose to ensuring financial wellbeing of his "family" and winning praises from the West for running his country into the ground, while staying the democracy course of course :)

Putin got Russia of its knees, he is returning the country to its usual strength, he is Russian FDR.
Suddenly Russia has a mind of its own and does what serves her best - how undemocratic and evil of her not to bow to puppet states and their master.

For 10 years Russia wanted to be a friend and an equal partner, West wanted it to be a "banana republic" with no voice. It took Russia 10 years to see through fake smiles and now it is back.
The West didn't want to have Russia as an equal friend and partner, well, now they will have Russia as a ruthless business partner.
While EU is fighting each other for the right to suck on Russia's pipe, US is getting, lets just call it - worried, about Russia selling weapons to those who don't exactly have the same vision of the NWO as they do, it turns out there are alot of countries like that.

West had a chance for friendship and declined it, lets see how it can handle survival of the fittest contest...

Hum we did no rejected it...we were told we won a war...the Cold War! Thus we felt we'd handle Russia and it's related territories like war trophies! History sometimes is made by incompetent people and incompetent Leaders. The US leadership of the 90's was incompetent as it came from another hectic and ideologic breed of numbnuts(Carter and Reagan). But the Soviet leadership was not better. That's how we missed the appointemnt for "friendship".

Friendly Fire

11-18-2006, 05:17 AM

Now I've got a problem... You are just asking to be crushed with your idiotic stuff on the other hand I really pity you because you obviosly seem to have serious problems with yourself.

First you were claiming that GDP according to PPP is not "real" and know you say that "real" (nominal in fact) is only mathematic...

GDP counted according to PPP (so real production) is growing every year (5.5% in this one) and nominal counted in $ is growing even faster.

That's just a fact. And this is not my fault that in your mighty empire the growth is... 1%.rofl

The real production? What production (volumes) has to do with prices...I feel outraged that you keep speaking about "real" GDP. See the "real" GDP is measured by volumes of production not by PPP.

So If you speak about volumes (economical output) getting higher while your currency is getting stronger although you have a blatant gap in your own "growth" then allow me to explain it to you dumkopf.

See Look at this small problem. Basic Market fluctuation.

Year 1. Your Apples in are worth 4PLN/KG you sell them well, around 50 Tons (50 000 kg)(yearly production output). Your currency is exchanged at 4 PLN/1 USD.

You've earned this year 50 000 USD (200 000 PLN)!

Year 2. This Year you're able to sell only 45 Tons of your apple but your price has gone up 0,5 PLN. In the mean time the Dollar has gone from 4 to 3 PLN. Let's look at the numbers. 45 000 x 4.5 PLN = 202500 PLN/3 = 67500 USD.

But when we convert it in dollars...surprise you've got a growth of 30+%

The convertibility puts you at 67 500 USD!

See your production is lower in year 2 but perfectly masked by the rise of the prices and the plungeon the dollar takes.

Your "real production" has slowed down...here we're talking finance, not production.

And I'm still agreeing that the PPP GDP is not the real one, neither is it convertible with production! You lose again.

Flamming_Python

11-18-2006, 09:28 AM

Yes. I'm sorry, but I couldn't find any proofs about aiming nukes (but other polish forum members will say that it is true.
But here is official link from Foreign Affairs Ministry which says about moving russian tactical nukes near polish borders.
http://www.mfa.gov.pl/files/file_library/39/010116b_2523.doc - polish text only - sorry/
About Vistula Lagoon now. Our ships from port in Elblag (city) were sailing into the Baltic sea via the only one pass which is part of Russia. We had agreement with Russia from 1961 that our ships can sail across that pass. But last year Russia started to make problems because "agreement was signed with friendly country, but Poland isn't friendly anymore".
Here is short link from 2005 (in english).
http://www.polskieradio.pl/polonia/article.asp?tId=36305&j=2
Now our goverment decided that we will build our own pass into Baltic sea.
Vistula Lagoon.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vistula_Lagoon

The nukes aiming thing sounds like pretty standard proccedure for any country. Poland is now, after all, part of a potentially hostile military alliance that seems to be spreading like wildfire around Russia. While relations with NATO are reasonable today, there is always the possibility for you know what...

As for the Vistula Pass, I really need more details, but it sounds again, like something any country would do if relations deteriorate (and now in 2006 they been very bad), because of the potential military risk or other such sensitive issues, rather than economics. If you can find another article that proves otherwise, please let me know. After all, by your very short article, it seems that it has harmed Russian boatists as much as the Polish one's.

I mean, that your political system isn't democratic. It something like USSR + general Franco + capitalism. Of course - you don't have to be democratic country.

Sorry for bad english - I'm drunk (vodka strong!!!1111) p-)

Let's not debate Russia's Democracy.... I simply don't have the heart for it right now :)

We'll see. EU needs Russia to provide the Gas and Oil and Russia needs EU to have a market to sell it. Where do you want to put all your production? China?

China and other far eastern countries certainly sound like a very reasonable idea to me. Maybe not all our trade, but the majority of it yes (right now EU accounts for 55% of Russia's trade). The far east, after all, seems to harbour far more fair partners that we could do business with, then the childish EU does right now. And because they don't have any paranoia or complexes, there are none of these crisises going on right now between Russia and Asia.

Now you may think its foolish of us, that China could take us over at any oppurtunity, etc... But really, what you're missing is that we are just as suspicious about NATO as we are about China. But China isn't the one which is spreading in our backyard and challenging us at every oppurtunity.

Matter of fact, the NATO has a brilliant strategy; wait for the shock troops to enter (colour revolutionaries), and then send in the heavy artillery (NATO membership). This whole spreading "Democracy" thing, does seem to have improved over the West's/Europe's last go at domination, via spreading "Civilisation" in the 19th centuary. So if you're going to be suspicious of Russia, Russia is sure as hell is going to be mighty suspicious of the West.

It's not our ridicolous attempt. Although I don't approve the way it's been done I get the idea behind it, and others too. Your country signed an agreement and never accepted it since than, pacta sunt servanda right? So why should EU believe Russia that doesn't obey the rules?

We never ratified it, which is actually the whole reason why these negotiations were planned that Poland choose to VETO just now! Way to shoot yourself in the foot, daily666 rofl rofl rofl rofl

A Russian telling about democratic behaviour, oh the irony. And there are more that actually changed their mind, look at the past few days, France and Lithuania have expressed their point of view too. But Poland seems to be a perfect scapegoat for you guys.

Sorry mate, didn't realise France and Lithuania VETO'd the negotiations... :roll:

And wasn't Russia doing exactly the same? Maybe you don't remember but during the 90's the relations were good, they changed suddenly somewhere around year 2000, well, coincidence?

Well I'm sure that the Polish elite would be happier with a Russia in the ****ter than a Russia that knows what it's doing. Not that I blame you, but still...

During 90s Russia was a safe heaven for crime and corruption, a country with no leader and no direction,it was on the path to self destruction.A lot of people in certain countries wanted to see the giant fall and they almost did...
In 2000 Russia finally, for the first time in 20 years, got an intelligent leader who is foremost concerned with the interests of the country given to him as oppose to ensuring financial wellbeing of his "family" and winning praises from the West for running his country into the ground, while staying the democracy course of course :)

Putin got Russia of its knees, he is returning the country to its usual strength, he is Russian FDR.
Suddenly Russia has a mind of its own and does what serves her best - how undemocratic and evil of her not to bow to puppet states and their master.

For 10 years Russia wanted to be a friend and an equal partner, West wanted it to be a "banana republic" with no voice. It took Russia 10 years to see through fake smiles and now it is back.
The West didn't want to have Russia as an equal friend and partner, well, now they will have Russia as a ruthless business partner.
While EU is fighting each other for the right to suck on Russia's pipe, US is getting, lets just call it - worried, about Russia selling weapons to those who don't exactly have the same vision of the NWO as they do, it turns out there are alot of countries like that.

West had a chance for friendship and declined it, lets see how it can handle survival of the fittest contest...

Nicely said...

Hum we did no rejected it...we were told we won a war...the Cold War! Thus we felt we'd handle Russia and it's related territories like war trophies! History sometimes is made by incompetent people and incompetent Leaders. The US leadership of the 90's was incompetent as it came from another hectic and ideologic breed of numbnuts(Carter and Reagan). But the Soviet leadership was not better. That's how we missed the appointemnt for "friendship".

I think he was refering to the 90's and early Putin-era (before he first majorly split with America over the Iraq war) Russian leadership, rather than the Soviet one.

Friendly Fire

11-18-2006, 09:37 AM

The nukes aiming thing sound like pretty standard proccedure for any country. Poland is now, after all, part of a potentially hostile military alliance that seems to be spreading like wildfire around Russia. While relations with it are reasonable today, there is always the possibility for you know what...

As for the Vistula Pass, I really need more details, but it sounds again, like something any country would do if relations deteriorate (and now in 2006 they been very bad), because of the potential military risk or other such sensitive issues, rather than economics. If you can find another article that proves otherwise, please let me know. After all, by your very short article, it seems that it has harmed Russian boatists as much as the Polish one's.

Let's not debate Russia's Democracy.... I simply don't have the heart for it right now :)

China and other far eastern countries certainly sound like a very reasonable idea to me. Maybe not all our trade, but the majority of it yes (right now EU accounts for 55% of Russia's trade). The far east, after all, seems to harbour far more fair partners that we could do business with, then the childish EU does right now. And because they don't have any paranoia or complexes, there are none of these crisises going on right now between Russia and Asia.

Now you may think its foolish of us, that China could take us over at any oppurtunity, etc... But really, what you're missing is that we are just as suspicious about NATO as we are about China. But China isn't the one which is spreading in our backyard and challenging us at every oppurtunity.

We never ratified it, which is actually the whole reason why these negotiations were planned that Poland choose to VETO just now! Way to shoot yourself in the foot, daily666 rofl rofl rofl rofl

Sorry mate, didn't realise France and Lithuania VETO'd the negotiations... :roll:

Well I'm sure that the Polish elite would be happier with a Russia in the ****ter than a Russia that knows what it's doing. Not that we blame you, but still...

Nicely said...

I think he was refering to the 90's and early Putin-era (before he first majorly split with America over the Iraq war) Russian leadership.

I know but we faced a weak Soviet leadership that got overwhelmed and flanked by gangsters (Eltsin being the most notorious one). And you know what happens when Putz meets Putz!

*^*

11-18-2006, 11:38 AM

Do you know what GDP is ? It's the value of goods and services made in a country. You may count It nominaly or according to PPP, which is let's say "standarized", so in case of Poland It says more or less what nominal GDP would be If prices in Poland were like "western".

GDP according to PPP is already almost twice higher than in your Belgium, nominal is almost as high and will be higher in 3 years at worst. In 10 years PPP GDP in Poland will be probably 3 times and nominal twice higher than in Belgium and that simply means a large market, although per capita It will be still lower.

See Look at this small problem. Basic Market fluctuation.

Year 1. Your Apples in are worth 4PLN/KG you sell them well, around 50 Tons (50 000 kg)(yearly production output). Your currency is exchanged at 4 PLN/1 USD.

You've earned this year 50 000 USD (200 000 PLN)!

Year 2. This Year you're able to sell only 45 Tons of your apple but your price has gone up 0,5 PLN. In the mean time the Dollar has gone from 4 to 3 PLN. Let's look at the numbers. 45 000 x 4.5 PLN = 202500 PLN/3 = 67500 USD.

But when we convert it in dollars...surprise you've got a growth of 30+%

The convertibility puts you at 67 500 USD!

See your production is lower in year 2 but perfectly masked by the rise of the prices and the plungeon the dollar takes.

Geezus... A proper "model" would be like this.

Year X. 50 tones, 4PLN=$1, 4PLN /KG

50.000 * 4PLN = 200.000 PLN = $50.000

Year Y. 55 tones, 3PLN=$1, 4PLN/KG

55.000 * 4PLN = 220.000 PLN = ~$73.300

You simply don't know what currency exchange rate is. You think that this is inflation. Inflation in Poland is the lowest in EU, hardly over 1% and we don't use $ here, we've got our own currency, which is simply getting stronger in relation to dollar - that's why nominal GDP counted in $ is growing so fast, PPP GDP is growing slower but anyway It's growing much faster than in your Belgium for example.

Listen, I understand that It's not to easy to say "I was wrong, I'm a fool", but really, go and ask your father to explain you that or something instead of making a bigger ass of yourself in every next post.

And BTW coming back to LCDs, in few years something like 60% of sold in EU will be made in Poland, If you don't like It, I'm sure you will find some made in China.

Friendly Fire

11-18-2006, 12:49 PM

Do you know what GDP is ? It's the value of goods and services made in a country. You may count It nominaly or according to PPP, which is let's say "standarized", so in case of Poland It says more or less what nominal GDP would be If prices in Poland were like "western".

GDP according to PPP is already almost twice higher than in your Belgium, nominal is almost as high and will be higher in 3 years at worst. In 10 years PPP GDP in Poland will be probably 3 times and nominal twice higher than in Belgium and that simply means a large market, although per capita It will be still lower.

Geezus... A proper "model" would be like this.

Year X. 50 tones, 4PLN=$1, 4PLN /KG

50.000 * 4PLN = 200.000 PLN = $50.000

Year Y. 55 tones, 3PLN=$1, 4PLN/KG

55.000 * 4PLN = 220.000 PLN = ~$73.300

You simply don't know what currency exchange rate is. You think that this is inflation. Inflation in Poland is the lowest in EU, hardly over 1% and we don't use $ here, we've got our own currency, which is simply getting stronger in relation to dollar - that's why nominal GDP counted in $ is growing so fast, PPP GDP is growing slower but anyway It's growing much faster than in your Belgium for example.

Listen, I understand that It's not to easy to say "I was wrong, I'm a fool", but really, go and ask your father to explain you that or something instead of making a bigger ass of yourself in every next post.

And BTW coming back to LCDs, in few years something like 60% of sold in EU will be made in Poland, If you don't like It, I'm sure you will find some made in China.

Ahahahahahahhahah speaking about a proper model...you should say your own model. Prices don't evolve yearly in Poland?:roll:

So in a market economy when your prices get higher you sell more?woot ...........................................................................................

Currency exchange rate? Yes I do in fact....know what it is. But you seem not to know **** about it. Here the rise in the price is not inflation related dumb **** but market related. WHen you sell more and your offer can't cope with the demand, your price grows sharply(OMG am I explaining this to grown up man). Inflation is specifically proportional to the growth of the economy. If your inflation is at 1% that means that your market is price-giver...read "POOR". Prices don't evolve very much since the expenses... don't evolve very much. See your consumtion level being poor, you're clearly in the height of the wave compared with the USD but you're nowhere near in Euro.:)

In my model both the CER and I were implemented as for a CE economy (central M3 model stupid cvnt fvck). And as I said Poland is slowing down and presenting it's flank to a NAIRU inflatory gap. ...

Your model is more close to a Gosplan one.:roll:

If you continue to boast your ridicule assumptions i'll be forced to track you down in Poland and to kill by choking you with eurostat statistics.

Not even mentioning the deflatory gap that in poland is kinda skyrocketing.

Oh Polish LCD displays will flood European markets? Let's see the prices, after that we'll advise.

Your Nominal GDP is on a wrong base...with current prices as I told to your polish friend. It was the flaw I underlined.

daily666

11-18-2006, 01:45 PM

We never ratified it, which is actually the whole reason why these negotiations were planned that Poland choose to VETO just now! Way to shoot yourself in the foot, daily666 rofl rofl rofl rofl

I don't know what's so funny about that, yes Russia signed the agreement, than thought it's not cool enough for it so denied it's ratification, and now wants to agree on another one. So if Russia thinks in 10 years "why don't we make gas prices 50% higher, let's change the agreement with EU". So now you know what is the deal. NATO also expressed it's concern about how Russia deals with the subject, but it's not the main thing in our stance.

We played the VETO card to push European Commission to act on the meat row subject which has been left unnoticed by it, for about a year (sic!). If they had acted earlier there would be no problem at all. Also we now know that Russia played the meat embargo for strictly politcal reasons, so here we go, an action creates reaction.

Sorry mate, didn't realise France and Lithuania VETO'd the negotiations... :roll:

Well apparently, Lithuania fully supported the Veto, and France said it supports our stance in the meat row which costs Poland 400 million EUR a year.

And I've got something more for you, read this:

Poland upholds veto despite Vanhanen appeal
18.11.2006 - 11:35 CET | By Andrew Rettman
EUOBSERVER / BRUSSELS - Finnish prime minister Matti Vanhanen failed to get Polish leader Jaroslaw Kaczynski to drop his veto against starting EU-Russia treaty talks next week after a two and a half hour-long dinner in Warsaw on Friday (18 November) night.

"Premier Kaczynski clearly explained Poland's stand, while I explained the stand of the other 24 countries integrated in the EU. We have failed to reach mutual understanding, however," Mr Vanhanen said, Polish media report.

The Finnish EU presidency gave political guarantees the EU would help Poland break Russia's €400 million a year ban on Polish meat exports and stand by Warsaw in any future energy disputes with its main gas supplier, Russia.

For its part, Poland said it will reply to Helsinki in writing early this week - with the 24 November EU-Russia summit just days away and with an EU energy ministers' meeting on 23 November the last chance for Poland to lift its blockade.

The row has already killed one high-level event: an EU-Russia energy council on 21 November was cancelled after Warsaw also vetoed the EU text for this meeting, although the official reason is that Russian energy minister Viktor Krishtenko is "too ill to fly."

Meanwhile, Brussels continues to lobby Moscow to lift the food ban with trade commissioner Peter Mandelson writing to Russian trade minister German Gref on Friday to say the food embargo is an EU issue not a bilateral issue.

The commission has also sent experts to give Polish food the EU seal of approval and given Warsaw a "legal interpretation" stating that an EU-Russia legal arbitrage mechanism may kick-in down the line if all else fails.

Russia might lift food ban
Russia's ambassador to the EU, Vladimir Chizhov, on Friday repeated there is "no politics behind this" food ban that was imposed due to the "systematic fraud" of Polish exporters, such as labeling Indian buffalo meat as Polish beef.

He added "as soon as they rectify the situation, all restrictions will be lifted" but added that Russian veterinary experts will have to independently verify any findings by the European Commission experts team.

The ambassador joked that Mr Kaczynski "will probably serve meat" when he hosts Mr Vanhanen in Warsaw and played up the internal EU rift, saying "some new members have brought into the EU ghosts of the past decades."

"We would like to see the position of the EU vis-a-vis Russia...to be a forward-looking one rather than a backward-looking one, the more dynamic EU members pulling the more reluctant ones, rather than vice versa."

But if Poland's prickly style has caused annoyance inside the EU, it has also thrown attention on a Russian trade policy that sees export bans and gas price hikes used against political rivals across the ex-Soviet bloc.

Russian trade policy in spotlight
Georgia, Moldova, Lithuania, Belarus and pre-Yanukovych Ukraine have all recently faced Russian trade problems, ostensibly for technical reasons but seen by analysts as serving Moscow's strategic goals in its so-called "near-abroad."

While nobody in the EU thinks Poland's official demand for Russia to ratify the 1991 Energy Charter Treaty is realistic, Warsaw's hard stance on Russian trade policy is beginning to win support.

Lithuania - after an initial wobble on Monday - and France backed Warsaw on the food ban early last week, while Swedish foreign minister Carl Bildt and the speaker of the Finnish parliament, Paavo Lipponen, defended Warsaw on Friday.

"There were other problems before this [Polish meat embargo]: with Norwegian herring or mineral water from other countries," Mr Bildt said, Polish agency PAP reports. "Poland has reason to raise these issues, so long as it does not go too far."

I did make the most interesting quotes bold on purpose. And we've got Sweden joining us.

*^*

11-18-2006, 02:00 PM

I didn't include inflation, because It hardly exists here and in that case didn't have any serious meaning. My "model" was 10.000 times better than yours.

Inflation is specifically proportional to the growth of the economy.

:roll:roflroflrofl

daily666

11-18-2006, 02:24 PM

Currency exchange rate? Yes I do in fact....know what it is. But you seem not to know **** about it. Here the rise in the price is not inflation related dumb **** but market related. WHen you sell more and your offer can't cope with the demand, your price grows sharply(OMG am I explaining this to grown up man). Inflation is specifically proportional to the growth of the economy. If your inflation is at 1% that means that your market is price-giver...read "POOR". Prices don't evolve very much since the expenses... don't evolve very much. See your consumtion level being poor, you're clearly in the height of the wave compared with the USD but you're nowhere near in Euro.:)

Do you really have to use those **** words to explain all the economic arguments you're stating? And Poland's consumption level is very high at the moment, it's actually too high that's why the NBP - RPP (Central Bank Monetary Council) is thinking about making the interest rates. The inflation is low because of the spread of different economical factors. And here is where your theory collapses. Polish inflation is low not because of the low consumption but because the taxation and duties have been lowered dramatically after Poland joined the EU, they're also low because of the PLN/EUR exchange ratio.

Musashi

11-18-2006, 02:33 PM

Inflation is specifically proportional to the growth of the economy.
Friend,
what about Russian's two-digit negative growth at the beginning of 90s and a huge inflation?

Friendly Fire

11-18-2006, 02:54 PM

Do you really have to use those **** words to explain all the economic arguments you're stating? And Poland's consumption level is very high at the moment, it's actually too high that's why the NBP - RPP (Central Bank Monetary Council) is thinking about making the interest rates. The inflation is low because of the spread of different economical factors. And here is where your theory collapses. Polish inflation is low not because of the low consumption but because the taxation and duties have been lowered dramatically after Poland joined the EU, they're also low because of the PLN/EUR exchange ratio.

Level very high...how come? What taxation has to do with your inflation...you're having a 1% inflation...that means your prices don't change yearly. Prices don't change because your market is not over consumming. When a market reaches over consumption levels the offer isn't enough to cope and sparks a selective offering by rising the prices.

Here this seemingly doesn't function that way. So you're saying the Prices out side of Poland are at the same level that inside Poland so that the cost is maintaned at the same levels without a disruption in the offering.

Brilliant, so how come PPP you're not at the same level since the pricing is the same.

Musashi, I'm not Russian!!!

Friendly Fire

11-18-2006, 02:56 PM

I didn't include inflation, because It hardly exists here and in that case didn't have any serious meaning. My "model" was 10.000 times better than yours.

:roll:roflroflrofl

Your model? That was a model?

Specifically proportional.

*^*

11-18-2006, 04:13 PM

Brilliant, so how come PPP you're not at the same level since the pricing is the same.

What do you mean ? Why GDP PPP is growing ? Let me guess... because quantity and quality of goods and services made in Poland is growing ? :):cantbeli:

Sergei

11-18-2006, 04:27 PM

daily666

11-18-2006, 06:02 PM

A good news for all supporting Polish masterful game of chess.

Just watched TV, Muller, the head of "Gazprom" said the company will divert 40% of its resources in the near 5 years to Asia (Japan, China and others).

Checkmate.

I can see that european buddies of Poland will be very happy about this news as Poland has secured a long-term gas supply for the whole EU.....NOT!!!!!

Does Germany do "color revolutions" or is it just speciality of Bzezinski and Co.?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, tell me Sergei, have you ever done any business negotiations?

And tell me why this news hasn't made a breaking in the European media. And one more thing, wasn't Russia blackmailing you guys (Ukrainians) last year by rising gas prices and cutting off supply? Short memory as I see it.

Eye

11-18-2006, 06:24 PM

but because the taxation and duties have been lowered dramatically after Poland joined the EU, they're also low because of the PLN/EUR exchange ratio.

Everything is OK, but I can't notice any reduction of taxes in Poland after joining the EU - rather an increase of taxes.

KMS

11-18-2006, 06:31 PM

And one more thing, wasn't Russia blackmailing you guys (Ukrainians) last year by rising gas prices and cutting off supply? Short memory as I see it.

Russia wasn't blackmailing Ukranians it simply demonstrated newly "elected" Ukranian government in very easy to comprehend language ($) the consequences of being a**holes and try to blackmail Russia.
The irony is that overwhelming majority of the Ukranians themselves! understood and approved what Russia was doing and blamed everything on their own government which is no longer there in case you didn't know.

Family and friends get "family and friends" rates, everyone else, including a**holes, jerks and prostitutes pay market prices...

daily666

11-18-2006, 06:35 PM

Family and friends get "family and friends" rates, everyone else, including a**holes, jerks and prostitutes pay market prices...

What do you mean by arseholes, jerks and prostitutes?

KMS

11-18-2006, 06:38 PM

What do you mean by arseholes, jerks and prostitutes?

I mean those who behave as such.

daily666

11-18-2006, 06:40 PM

I mean those who behave as such.

Everyone else? Meaning EU, and the rest who isn't in Russia sphere of influence?

KMS

11-18-2006, 06:44 PM

Everyone else? Meaning EU, and the rest who isn't in Russia sphere of influence?

None of the above

*^*

11-18-2006, 08:37 PM

Just watched TV, Muller, the head of "Gazprom" said the company will divert 40% of its resources in the near 5 years to Asia (Japan, China and others).

Checkmate.

Yep. Very basic long term strategical decisions are being made within 3 days because of a small conflict. :)

Flamming_Python

11-19-2006, 12:13 AM

Everyone else? Meaning EU, and the rest who isn't in Russia sphere of influence?

He means those who benefit tremendously from Russian subsidies, priority agreements and low gas prices, and then out of the blue step and claim that Russia is oppressing them and controlling them, only to then sell out to the West and be controlled by them instead.

This doesn't benefit normal people, only the new elites that come to power during those revolution (check out how much money the hotrod son of Yushchenko made during the Orange "Revolution"). These countries are so close to Russia, their economy is naturally going to depend mostly on it whatever the case, and we'll be happy to subsidise them if they are on our side. But they ain't gonna get nothing if they ain't (although punishing them will be going too far, as it is their choice after all).

That Georgia thing is kind of like Mexico saying, we'll follow the Kremlin's line from now on, and then start complaining when America throws the illegal Mexicans out.

I hate this ****, I had enough. Russia is always wrong, in whatever it does. You even get people defending Iran's point of view in the West. But Russia is always a стабле canditate to pin problems on when there is little better to do :cantbeli:

Maybe I should just bow down now, to my new master... ПОЛЬСКИЕ ПАНЫ, СПАСИТЕ МЕНЯ!!

Friendly Fire

11-19-2006, 06:45 AM

Yep. Very basic long term strategical decisions are being made within 3 days because of a small conflict. :)

Oh it is now?

Friendly Fire

11-19-2006, 06:46 AM

Everything is OK, but I can't notice any reduction of taxes in Poland after joining the EU - rather an increase of taxes.

Oh yes...how come?

*^*

11-19-2006, 11:21 AM

Oh it is now?

Sure this is a small conflict provoked by Russians themselves and If someone is thinking because of that Russians are making (within 3 days :):):)) long term strategical decisions, which involve hundreds billion of $ is simply... wrong:).

Flamming_Python

11-20-2006, 01:10 AM

Flamming, I think you have made very good points...

I only take exception to your priorities on motives rather than evidence...

Perhaps that sort of approach won't be much good for a criminal investigation...

But when talking about Geo-Politics, it works out quite nicely p-)

Sergei

11-20-2006, 09:45 AM

What do you mean by arseholes, jerks and prostitutes?

In case you didn't know, Ms. Tymoshenko, the so-called "gas princess" made billions of dollars selling Russian gas to Poland and other east european countries. She got it at 50 bucks pers 1000 cubic meters and sold it at 280 bucks to Romania or Hungary, that is 230 bucks net profit on 1000 cubic meters.

She became filthy rich within 1,5 years in power after being kicked out by Kuchma for being too greedy. And then she led that "orange revolution" charge together with USchenko for who will share the enormous gas profits coming from Russia. Russia just showed in very simple terms that this "commercial fun" they have had since 1991 is about to end. Everybody got the message including the USchenko older brother Piotr who is currently sitting on the pipeline going from Russia to Poland via Ukraine and getting a good slice of the cake ensuring USchenko is not toppled from power as we speak.

I bet you 100 bucks you won't see this written in the polish media, right?

Igor01

11-20-2006, 10:38 AM

Flamming_Python

11-20-2006, 12:12 PM

In case you didn't know, Ms. Tymoshenko, the so-called "gas princess" made billions of dollars selling Russian gas to Poland and other east european countries. She got it at 50 bucks pers 1000 cubic meters and sold it at 280 bucks to Romania or Hungary, that is 230 bucks net profit on 1000 cubic meters.

She became filthy rich within 1,5 years in power after being kicked out by Kuchma for being too greedy. And then she led that "orange revolution" charge together with USchenko for who will share the enormous gas profits coming from Russia. Russia just showed in very simple terms that this "commercial fun" they have had since 1991 is about to end. Everybody got the message including the USchenko older brother Piotr who is currently sitting on the pipeline going from Russia to Poland via Ukraine and getting a good slice of the cake ensuring USchenko is not toppled from power as we speak.

I bet you 100 bucks you won't see this written in the polish media, right?

Lukashchenko did the same thing with Russian gas. But at least he spent the money on the country, rather than giving it all to himself.

And some call these filthy oligarchs "revolutionaries for freedom". For shame, as they are the enemies of all peoples...

And I would certainly feel a lot more "free" knowing that my money is being invested back into the country and my countrymen, rather than going into going into the back pockets of the rich and corrupt, who already have more cash than I can count in this life or the next.

Yushchenko is set to be the next Yeltsin, from my point of view, and I would never wish such a fate upon my Ukranian brothers. But at the end of the day, it's up to them to throw off his cloak and dagger schemes.

KMS

11-20-2006, 11:11 PM

Interesting article in Polish: http://wiadomosci.wp.pl/kat,50316,wid,8601445,wiadomosc.html?ticaid=12b79

Russian version: http://www.inosmi.ru/translation/231114.html

The article is just a point of view so who cares, but the readers' comments are very entertaining :)

WOW!:cantbeli:
Below are just some of the excerps"

"Polish are the chosen people"
"Russsians are the barbarians who can't even put together a bisycle"
"We need to be like Chechens, they stood up to Russia, won and now prosper" roflroflroflrofl
"We need to strenghten out economy and military and this time we really will show Moscow"

"Our military already beat them once if we wanted to, we could do it now too and would be at the Ural mountains before Russians sober up"

Polish, don't take it personaly but I am now convinced - you are the land of delusional and idiots.
And for years I thought that the joke about Polish submarine was just a joke, apparantely not...

asch

11-20-2006, 11:16 PM

WOW!:cantbeli:
Below are just some of the excerps"

"Polish are the chosen people"
"Russsians are the barbarians who can't even put together a bisycle"
"We need to be like Chechens, they stood up to Russia, won and now prosper" roflroflroflrofl
"We need to strenghten out economy and military and this time we really will show Moscow"

"Our military already beat them once if we wanted to, we could do it now too and would be at the Ural mountains before Russians sober up"

Polish, don't take it personaly but I am now convinced - you are the land of delusional and idiots.
And for years I thought that the joke about Polish submarine was just a joke, apparantely not...

man, don't mix apples and oranges.
i think that percentage of arseholes in Poland roughly the same as in Russia.
;)

Flamming_Python

11-20-2006, 11:34 PM

WOW!:cantbeli:
Below are just some of the excerps"

"Polish are the chosen people"
"Russsians are the barbarians who can't even put together a bisycle"
"We need to be like Chechens, they stood up to Russia, won and now prosper" roflroflroflrofl
"We need to strenghten out economy and military and this time we really will show Moscow"

"Our military already beat them once if we wanted to, we could do it now too and would be at the Ural mountains before Russians sober up"

Polish, don't take it personaly but I am now convinced - you are the land of delusional and idiots.
And for years I thought that the joke about Polish submarine was just a joke, apparantely not...

Chill... Let them say what they want, and give more humour for us in the process :)

Like asch pointed out though, it's not like we don't have similar idiots in Russia. Too many IMHO

*^*

11-21-2006, 02:20 AM

Polish, don't take it personaly but I am now convinced - you are the land of delusional and idiots.

Feck off you retard. These comments (If ever existed) were jokes oe provocations and that your idiots translating some 3rd rate article and even with comments from anonymous users , just show... something.

DeltaWhisky58

11-21-2006, 06:23 AM

WOW!:cantbeli:
Below are just some of the excerps"

"Polish are the chosen people"
"Russsians are the barbarians who can't even put together a bisycle"
"We need to be like Chechens, they stood up to Russia, won and now prosper" roflroflroflrofl
"We need to strenghten out economy and military and this time we really will show Moscow"

"Our military already beat them once if we wanted to, we could do it now too and would be at the Ural mountains before Russians sober up"

Polish, don't take it personaly but I am now convinced - you are the land of delusional and idiots.
And for years I thought that the joke about Polish submarine was just a joke, apparantely not...

Firstly - the word is excerpts, secondly you are a racist idiot, and thirdly, take a two week break to consider your actions.

paku

11-21-2006, 06:31 AM

edit this post

Sergei

11-21-2006, 06:54 AM

Lukashchenko did the same thing with Russian gas. But at least he spent the money on the country, rather than giving it all to himself.

And some call these filthy oligarchs "revolutionaries for freedom". For shame, as they are the enemies of all peoples...

And I would certainly feel a lot more "free" knowing that my money is being invested back into the country and my countrymen, rather than going into going into the back pockets of the rich and corrupt, who already have more cash than I can count in this life or the next.

Yushchenko is set to be the next Yeltsin, from my point of view, and I would never wish such a fate upon my Ukranian brothers. But at the end of the day, it's up to them to throw off his cloak and dagger schemes.

USchenko is ten times worse the drunkard Yeltsin. That guy climbed on the BTR and proclaimed himself a president against the current regime knowing fully well he could be killed the next day. That takes balls.
Yuschenko had to be pressured by his american wife (by coincidense a former US department employee) to go for "Orange revolution" scam. He didn't have the balls to do it and he is no leader.

Returning back to the discussion of gas pipelines, I don't understand why the polish guys defend the USchenko regime. That guy openly steals the gas supplies (paid for by Poland!!!!) to divert the money to his numerous family members (there are so many of them you can't keep an eye on them all). Each and every one of them is richer than any wealthy Polish businessman. His son drives BMW M6 which very few people in the well-paid Europe can afford (the base price is 133 000 Euros).
But he has this "Democrat" sticker on his forehead, and therefore he must be a good man. /sarcasm off.

Russia did the good thing, it slapped him on his corrupt hands. But Russia hasn't done enough yet, they should have made it even worse for that orange regime.

perdurabo

11-21-2006, 07:16 AM

paku

11-21-2006, 07:55 AM

So Gazprom/Russia has pushed the pedal to the max.

http://gospodarka.gazeta.pl/gospodarka/1,33181,3746844.html

Poland is going to pay 270-290 dollars per cubic meter of russian gas since 2007. According to some source, the exact price is $282. The price is an increase from previous one by 10%.
I'm really glad Russians are acting this way. They are giving up the last leverage they have to blackmail Poland into anything. Because right now, if Russians would like to increase gas price even further, they would have to admit an open hostility. They wont have any more the excuse of "market prices", because our neighbouring Germany is also paying $280 dollars for it's gas. :)

asch

11-21-2006, 08:26 AM

Sergei

11-21-2006, 09:02 AM

perdurabo

11-21-2006, 09:11 AM

You see everything in black and white, "we - good, they - bad". That's your main problem, when you grow older this will go away.
Speaking about ukrainian elections 2004 both choices were bad, we just chose the worst (or the choice was forced on us, who knows, I never counted the ballots). :(
how do you know what i see? i remeber your or was it other seriei calling for help because those bad russians wan't to force you to choose other dude, ballots counting was ok few of my mates where down there as independent EU observers (atleast in Lwow/Lviv area). whoever you choose it's not my problem, but remeber it should be your choice not mine not "russia strong" guys nor any one else just ukrainian choice.

DeltaWhisky58

11-21-2006, 09:28 AM

Sergei/perdurabo - stop the childish bickering now, or I'll hit you both with infractions - got it?

:bash:

perdurabo

11-21-2006, 10:32 AM

ok DW.
Sergiei if you want to continue PM me :)
I would like to know Ukrainian view.

DeltaWhisky58

11-21-2006, 10:35 AM

ok DW.
Sergiei if you want to continue PM me :)
I would like to know Ukrainian view.

Sense at last! Strangely enough that's exactly why the PM system is there!

Flamming_Python

11-21-2006, 11:10 AM

i don't understand this either sergiei, i was all for this orange revolution when you and other ukrainian members asked us to help you because if i remember corectly "you prefer thief you choosed not instaled by moscow one", i also remeber that one of poles said you will be regreting this in next few years because this could be another scam but you choosed good path about deciding on your own who should rule, if both *shenko are so bad don't choose them in next elections search for someone else.

I am not Ukrainian, so my points aren't going to count as much as Sergei's for instance. But nontheless, I would like to make them (and please correct me if i'm wrong).

If this Orange Revolution managed to at least achieve a better form of democracy in Ukraine, than maybe it'll be worth it in the end. But from my point of view, all this did was swap one set of crooks for even worse ones. Democracy, I don't see happening, as in the near future it will continue to be like it always is; whoever has the most money, and the most influential friends, wins...

At the time of the revolution, the Ukrainian people were dis-illusioned with over a decade of appalling leadership, and I can't blame them. But most of them don't want to join NATO, and most of them would rather integrate with Russia than the EU. I myself have met Western Ukrainians who think Yushchenko is ruining the country. Matter of fact, I haven't really met many Ukrainians that didn't...

The Yushchenko government has really pushed the tensions to boiling point in Ukraine, and achieved very little progress in the economy. There is a good reason, why you didn't see as much of these sort of tensions back when Ukraine was running a more balanced policy, or was closer to Russia.

daily666

11-21-2006, 02:02 PM

Ok, guys this is a Poland/EU/Russia - Gas/Meat row not an Orange Revolution case study (which has it's 2nd anniversary today btw.).

Another move in the game of chess...

Russia threatens to ban EU meat imports from 2007
http://euobserver.com/9/22916
21.11.2006 - 12:01 CET | By Andrew Rettman
EUOBSERVER / BRUSSELS - Russia has threatened to ban all imports of EU animal products from 1 January, citing health and safety worries arising from swine fever in Bulgaria and Romania, with the fresh trade dispute unfolding just as the EU is neck-deep in a Polish-Russia meat trade row.

They have raised concerns arising from the circulation of animal products in the EU following enlargement," commission spokesman Philip Tod told EUobserver on Tuesday (21 November). "But we have taken all the necessary transitional measures to protect both the EU and third countries and we consider these to be sufficient."

The Russian objection was made in a letter dated 3 November - 10 days before Poland used its veto on EU-Russia treaty talks to push the commission into trying to break a separate Russian embargo of Polish meat imports.

"I don't think it's related to the Polish situation," Mr Tod stated, saying the fact Brussels is now pushing Russia to move on two fronts - a Polish trade ban worth €400 million a year and a potential EU ban worth billions a year - has not made talks any harder as the wider Russia-EU problem is so black-and-white it has a foregone conclusion.

"We don't need any concessions [on the potential EU ban]," he said, adding "no EU animal-origin product will be put under any constraint" once the commission demonstrates to Russia it has taken all the necessary measures to make sure infected meat from Romania and Bulgaria cannot enter the EU chain after accession.

Commenting on the issue, a Russian official said "There are many issues in Romania and Bulgaria with which we have concerns."

The Russian EU ban prospect also comes just as Russia and the US signed a WTO-related agreement for Russia to boost imports of US meat, however, meaning that Russian markets could soon be stocking US agricultural overproduction instead of excess EU beef and pork.

At the same time as the 3 November letter, Russia also wrote to each of the 25 member states saying they will from 2007 require all food exports to come with full certification stating if any potentially harmful pesticides or chemicals have been used in any stage of the production process. Such a move would cost millions in terms of administrative burdens and delays.

An EU diplomat close to the talks indicated that all the separate trade moves are interconnected in a complex game that sees Russia create trade problems which it later solves but at the price of real political gains in areas such as energy market access.

"The EU should be prepared for Russia to impose the wider food ban - generally if Russia says they will do something, then they will do it," he stated. "But this could be quite good for Poland as it will show the need for the EU to act with solidarity and to give a robust response," he added, saying EU trade sanctions could follow a blanket Russian embargo.

Meanwhile, Moscow is becoming crowded with European Commission food experts, with one team already in place trying and, so far, failing to get Russia to agree to trilateral Brussels-Warsaw-Moscow talks on the Polish ban and another team waiting for the green light to go and lobby on the proposed EU ban.

"We suggested a face-to-face meeting this week, but the Russian side has not responded yet," the commission's Mr Tod said.

Ok, I'll explain.

Poland: lift the meat ban, so we can start talking gas
EU: lift the meat ban so Poland can stop vetoing the gas talks
Russia: we will ban all meat from EU if EU doesn't force Poland to stop vetoing the gas talks, so we can have a gas agreement and a meat ban pending, because anyway it's all Poland's fault.

Did I get it wrong?

Switek

11-21-2006, 02:17 PM

Poland: lift the meat ban, so we can start talking gas
EU: lift the meat ban so Poland can stop vetoing the gas talks
Russia: we will ban all meat from EU if EU doesn't force Poland to stop vetoing the gas talks, so we can have a gas agreement and a meat ban pending, because anyway it's all Poland's fault.

Did I get it wrong?

You got the point Daily. I wish that other EU leaders could underestand what is Putin's Russia... but seem that it's out their mental reach

daily666

11-21-2006, 02:24 PM

Uh, It's not personal. It's business...

The Godfather?

Flamming_Python

11-21-2006, 02:28 PM

Ok, guys this is a Poland/EU/Russia - Gas/Meat row not an Orange Revolution case study (which has it's 2nd anniversary today btw.).

Another move in the game of chess...

Ok, I'll explain.

Poland: lift the meat ban, so we can start talking gas
EU: lift the meat ban so Poland can stop vetoing the gas talks
Russia: we will ban all meat from EU if EU doesn't force Poland to stop vetoing the gas talks, so we can have a gas agreement and a meat ban pending, because anyway it's all Poland's fault.

Did I get it wrong?

Now its probably gone political. But that still doesn't mean it was political before. Russia has adopted a tough line. However, I would definately have prefered negotiations about the meat ban.

You got the point Daily. I wish that other EU leaders could underestand what is Putin's Russia... but seem that it's out their mental reach

Why don't you go ahead and explain to us?

daily666

11-21-2006, 02:50 PM

Flamming, all EU inspections in Poland say our meat factories are OK. Russia never sent it's inspectors and as our Public Prosecutor found out the forged certificates (that were sent from Russian authorities) were made in Russia for a meat made in USA. Tell me what's the point of holding the meat ban than? It's been political ever since. I agree the case is disproportional (oil - meat) but I understand the line in which the Polish govt. is going however, again, I disagre with the means they're doing it.

Sergei

11-22-2006, 07:03 AM

You got the point Daily. I wish that other EU leaders could underestand what is Putin's Russia... but seem that it's out their mental reach

What is Putin's Russia is up to the Russians to decide. EU shouldn't treat Russia as it is its member. It is NOT.
If they want some kind of fair and balanced trade at least.
Russia has every right to ban anything they see fit, whether it is politically motivated or not. This is called "independent foreign and economic policy". It is not Russia's fault that Poland has just become another Iowa, or 51st state.

Poland failed to become a good trading partner and a good neighbor, it is now survival of the fittest, after 90's debacle and what Russia has gone through, my money is on Russia.

daily666

11-22-2006, 09:00 AM

What is Putin's Russia is up to the Russians to decide. EU shouldn't treat Russia as it is its member. It is NOT.
If they want some kind of fair and balanced trade at least.
Russia has every right to ban anything they see fit, whether it is politically motivated or not. This is called "independent foreign and economic policy". It is not Russia's fault that Poland has just become another Iowa, or 51st state.

Oh, really? It's the rule of the jungle or Russia wants to be treated the same way? Independent foreign policy doesn't mean they can ban everything they see fit. You see this is clearly hostile act, and you've prooved that by your way of thinking. In short, "hell they can suck my ass, if they don't comply I'll ban everything".

In international relations and diplomacy the principle of reciprocity rules which means the status given by one state to the citizens or legal entities of another, should be returned in kind. Did Poland ban anything from Russia before Russia banned polish meat? Well, even after that Poland did nothing according to the rule or reciprocity, which also includes penalties. We have checked the frauds and found they are not Polish fault and asked EU Commision to check the problem. They didn't and now, in panic they're trying to sort things out and you know what? They've found out that it's really not Poland's fault!

Poland failed to become a good trading partner and a good neighbor, it is now survival of the fittest, after 90's debacle and what Russia has gone through, my money is on Russia.

Clearly you are repeating the Russian govt./govt. media here, ever thought of independent thinking?

According to your statements on this forum (which is strange considering even the Russians here are more open minded looking at the problem), everything's Poland's fault...

Or, who's fault is it?

Well Russia was the first one to ban the meat trade. It's also EU's fault becuase they treated the issue like a hot egg and didn't solve it while being supposed to. Maybe it's Poland's fault because it played it harsh and rude.

But contrary to your opinion western media and hard facts are different

Putin issues veiled warning to Poland on EU talks
LONDON (*******) -
http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/us/nws/p/*******120.gif
President
Vladimir Putin said in a veiled warning to Poland and other East European nations on Wednesday they risked creating fresh divisions in Europe by treating Russia as an enemy instead of a strategic partner.

Poland has been blocking consensus in the EU on a mandate for talks with Russia on a new strategic partnership, due to be launched at a summit in Helsinki on Friday, saying Moscow must first end or promise to end a ban on Polish food imports.

On Tuesday, Poland said it would drop a threatened veto on the talks if the EU met conditions it had set out in a letter sent to the Finnish EU presidency. It gave no details.

In an article in the Financial Times, Putin wrote that some in Europe were trying to fit EU-Russian relations into "the obsolete model of 'friend or foe,"' but there should be nothing to fear from growing interdependence between the two sides.

"Such stereotypes have little in common with reality, but their persistent influence on political thinking and practice runs the risk of creating fresh divisions in Europe," he said.

"The past must not be used to divide us, because we cannot rewrite history."

The Financial Times said although Putin did not mention Poland by name, he clearly had the country in his sights along with the seven other formerly communist countries that joined the
European Union in 2004 and regarded Moscow with suspicion.

PUTIN'S GOAL

Putin said he hoped for progress towards a new EU-Russian cooperation pact in Helsinki to replace one that is due to expire next year.

"Our current goal is to join forces so that Russia and the EU can build a common future as partners and allies," he said.

"Future talks should not deteriorate into an exchange of complaints. We will not be able to turn a new leaf in the history of our cooperation if we succumb to fear of growing interdependence."

Putin said economic and political relations between the 25-nation EU and Russia were maturing, with cooperation in areas such as international security, industry and justice.

"In spite of tactical differences, we have a common desire to find a fair solution to the most complicated international problems, such as the Middle East conflict or the issue of the Iranian 'nuclear dossier'," said Putin.

Polish Prime Minister Jaroslaw Kaczynski told a news conference on Tuesday his government had set the EU certain unspecified conditions and he was now awaiting an answer from Finland. He declined to give details.

Failure to agree on a negotiating mandate would embarrass the EU, which needs unanimity to open talks with the powerful neighbor that supplies some 30 percent of the bloc's energy. The talks will cover energy, trade, investment and human rights.

Russia banned imports of Polish meat and some other foods a year ago after discovering forged veterinary certificates.

Moscow says the ban was a bilateral step taken in response to import fraud and has rejected offers by the
European Commission to mediate.

Warsaw says the ban is politically motivated, aimed at splitting the EU and isolating former Soviet satellite states in Eastern Europe that stand up to Moscow.

Polish officials say Poland has met all the requirements needed to export to the Russian market.

So President of Russia says this:
"Vladimir Putin said in a veiled warning to Poland and other East European nations on Wednesday they risked creating fresh divisions in Europe by treating Russia as an enemy instead of a strategic partner."

Is that partnership to blackmail the other party?

Let's extend the above statement:

Russia to ban animal products from EU
http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/us/nws/p/ap_small.gif
BRUSSELS, Belgium - The
European Commission said Wednesday Russia had told the 25-nation bloc it intends to ban all animal product exports from the EU starting next year because Moscow claimed new members Bulgaria and Romania had poor animal health standards.

EU spokesman Philip Tod told reporters that Moscow had informed the European Commission on Nov. 3 "of their intention to ban EU animal product exports" starting Jan. 1. The announcement complicates already touchy ties between the EU and Russia amid a standoff between Poland and Russia over a similar ban on its meat and plant products.

Well, we're back to my explanation from few posts above, now Russia is blackmailing the whole EU (which is almost whole Europe) because of some really sick argument about Romania and Bulgaria joining the EU next year. Yes, let's ban Ireland poultry because some farmer in Bucharest has dirty trausers.

DeltaWhisky58

11-22-2006, 09:05 AM

Flamming_Python

11-22-2006, 10:09 AM

Oh, really? It's the rule of the jungle or Russia wants to be treated the same way? Independent foreign policy doesn't mean they can ban everything they see fit. You see this is clearly hostile act, and you've prooved that by your way of thinking. In short, "hell they can suck my ass, if they don't comply I'll ban everything".

In international relations and diplomacy the principle of reciprocity rules which means the status given by one state to the citizens or legal entities of another, should be returned in kind. Did Poland ban anything from Russia before Russia banned polish meat? Well, even after that Poland did nothing according to the rule or reciprocity, which also includes penalties. We have checked the frauds and found they are not Polish fault and asked EU Commision to check the problem. They didn't and now, in panic they're trying to sort things out and you know what? They've found out that it's really not Poland's fault!

Clearly you are repeating the Russian govt./govt. media here, ever thought of independent thinking?

According to your statements on this forum (which is strange considering even the Russians here are more open minded looking at the problem), everything's Poland's fault...

Or, who's fault is it?

Well Russia was the first one to ban the meat trade. It's also EU's fault becuase they treated the issue like a hot egg and didn't solve it while being supposed to. Maybe it's Poland's fault because it played it harsh and rude.

But contrary to your opinion western media and hard facts are different

So President of Russia says this:
"Vladimir Putin said in a veiled warning to Poland and other East European nations on Wednesday they risked creating fresh divisions in Europe by treating Russia as an enemy instead of a strategic partner."

Is that partnership to blackmail the other party?

Let's extend the above statement:

Well, we're back to my explanation from few posts above, now Russia is blackmailing the whole EU (which is almost whole Europe) because of some really sick argument about Romania and Bulgaria joining the EU next year. Yes, let's ban Ireland poultry because some farmer in Bucharest has dirty trausers.

Well honestly I can't figure out these latest set of bans. But the EU has the right to ban every Russian product out there, including gas and oil. I would like more information on that meat ban due to Bulgaria and Romania.

I can see your points, and they are reasonable. However if I were to jump to your conclusion, there would be no room for critical thinking.

I still maintain the ideas that this has more to do with Economics than Politics. Russia has placed numerous bans on products in the food & agriculture industry, from countries around the world. However, I would think that this is done to protect Russia's own domestic markets, or perhaps it's some half-hearted attempt at Mercantilism, rather than some attempt to take over Europe.

Sergei

11-22-2006, 10:14 AM

Well honestly I can't figure out these latest set of bans. But the EU has the right to ban every Russian product out there, including gas and oil. I would like more information on that meat ban due to Bulgaria and Romania.

I can see your points, and they are reasonable. However if I were to jump to your conclusion, there would be no room for critical thinking.

I still maintain the ideas that this has more to do with Economics than Politics. Russia has placed numerous bans on products in the food & agriculture industry, from countries around the world. However, I would think that this is done to protect Russia's own domestic markets, or perhaps it's some half-hearted attempt at Mercantilism, rather than some attempt to take over Europe.

From what I understood, Russia also banned all of the Ukrainian meat coming to Russia for the valid reason. That was a buffalo meat from Argentina labelled as Ukrainian beef. :(
Once this issue was settled (forgery of documentation for th meat discovered) the shipment was renewed.
The Poles just want the economic issue to become a political one.

Flamming_Python

11-22-2006, 10:28 AM

From what I understood, Russia also banned all of the Ukrainian meat coming to Russia for the valid reason. That was a buffalo meat from Argentina labelled as Ukrainian beef. :(
Once this issue was settled (forgery of documentation for th meat discovered) the shipment was renewed.
The Poles just want the economic issue to become a political one.

Yes Russia is definetly adopting a tough policy. Essentially, putting a lot of pressure on the countries to fix their exports.

However, it may well be using these bans as an excuse to achieve something. But I believe, that they are trying to achieve something in the Economic sense like I shown above, rather than in the Political sense, and Poland trying to pretend that it is, is simply disgraceful.

The reason is that these bans extend beyond Eastern Europe (USA, Kazakhstan, Brazil, for example), and have in the past certainly been dished out liberarly due to mad cow disease, or such. When mad cow disease broke out, Russia banned meat from half of Europe, and a lot of overseas meat. Now Russia is determined to send a tough message and solve a different economic problem

Igor01

11-22-2006, 10:28 AM

To use a Scots expression, I'm only a ba' hair (ball hair - very small distance) away from locking this topic and flinging in an infraction grenade - you know what they are like, all those in the room including by-standers get fragged.

I've seen (and participated in) many Poland/Russia discussions on mp.net and IMHO save for a few silly posts, this thread is uncharacteristically mellow and civilized. Besides, the situation with the diplomatic stand-off is still unfolding, so it's only natural for Polish and Russian members here to continue having interest in discussion it.

I sure would like to continue hearing the opinions of the Poles here, especially now that the situation seems to be escalating with a reported prospect of Russia banning all EU meat imports and the Polish President demonstratively skipping the EU-Russia summit and going to Georgia and Romania instead. As long as the discussion stays civil (which it has so far, for the most part) why not keep this thread live and kicking? If mods lock it down now, we are sure to see a cloned thread in the near future, especially since things seem to be taking a more dramatic turn on the diplomatic front.

DeltaWhisky58

11-22-2006, 10:39 AM

I've seen (and participated in) many Poland/Russia discussions on mp.net and IMHO save for a few silly posts, this thread is uncharacteristically mellow and civilized. Besides, the situation with the diplomatic stand-off is still unfolding, so it's only natural for Polish and Russian members here to continue having interest in discussion it.

Despite your comments, my warning stands.

Sergei

11-22-2006, 10:51 AM

Yes Russia is definetly adopting a tough policy. Essentially, putting a lot of pressure on the countries to fix their exports.

However, it may well be using these bans as an excuse to achieve something. But I believe, that they are trying to achieve something in the Economic sense like I shown above, rather than in the Political sense, and Poland trying to pretend that it is, is simply disgraceful.

The reason is that these bans extend beyond Eastern Europe (USA, Kazakhstan, Brazil, for example), and have in the past certainly been dished out liberarly due to mad cow disease, or such. When mad cow disease broke out, Russia banned meat from half of Europe, and a lot of overseas meat. Now Russia is determined to send a tough message and solve a different economic problem

I think Russia is sending a message that Russia has enough capacity to produce its own meat and not rely on imports. Since Russia is not in WTO it can do a lot of tricks and get away with it.
The Poles think if Russia allows their meat into Russian market the problem will be solved. It will not. The empty place will not stay empty for a long time. The place of Polish meat is already occupied by Russian producers on the market, and I can hardly believe that the Russian government will push its own producers aside just to let the Polish ones in.
So it would be wise for the Poles to look for the market elsewhere. EU maybe?

paku

11-22-2006, 10:55 AM

Yes Russia is definetly adopting a tough policy. Essentially, putting a lot of pressure on the countries to fix their exports.

However, it may well be using these bans as an excuse to achieve something. But I believe, that they are trying to achieve something in the Economic sense like I shown above, rather than in the Political sense, and Poland trying to pretend that it is, is simply disgraceful.

The reason is that these bans extend beyond Eastern Europe (USA, Kazakhstan, Brazil, for example), and have in the past certainly been dished out liberarly due to mad cow disease, or such. When mad cow disease broke out, Russia banned meat from half of Europe, and a lot of overseas meat. Now Russia is determined to send a tough message and solve a different economic problem

There are hard facts, that prove you wrong. As it has been proved, Poland had no role in the meat transport, that was smuggled into Russia.
Meat was from USA, certificates were forged in Russia, the meat came through Lithuania, not Poland.
That's the case, so why the ban is still there? And even more, russian officials with every statement are consistently putting all the blame on Poland.
One word: politics.

Flamming_Python

11-22-2006, 11:02 AM

There are hard facts, that prove you wrong. As it has been proved, Poland had no role in the meat transport, that was smuggled into Russia.
Meat was from USA, certificates were forged in Russia, the meat came through Lithuania, not Poland.
That's the case, so why the ban is still there? And even more, russian officials with every statement are consistently putting all the blame on Poland.
One word: politics.

Russia may be using these certificates as an excuse, it's quite possible I admit. But why do you assume that Russia is trying to achieve a political gain? I would think, considering the wide variety of countries that Russia has banned food & agriculture products from, that it's trying to achieve Economic gains, or protect its own markets, as I said before.

If it only banned food & agriculture products from one part of the world, then you might have a point, unless of course that region is known for its poor quality food products and corrupt certificates, and therefore Russia just wants an excuse to ban everything from there.... But then again that's hardly the case, is it now?

redfox0035

11-22-2006, 11:03 AM

Europe has nothing to fear from Russia's aspirations

By Vladimir Putin

Published: November 22 2006 02:00 | Last updated: November 22 2006 02:00

I would like to share my views on relations between Russia and the European Union ahead of Friday's summit in Helsinki, primarily their strategic aspects.

Russia is a natural member of the "European family" in spirit, history and culture. Though it is not striving to join the EU, when I consider the future of our relations I do not see any areas that are not open to equal, strategic co-operation based on common objectives and values. When speaking of common values, we should also respect the historical diversity of European civilisation. It would be useless and wrong to try to force artificial "standards" on each other.

In the past few years, the EU and Russia have become important political and economic partners. Such co-operation should not be used to the detriment of relations with other countries and regions. I personally believe this policy will benefit everyone, including the EU. Our relations are becoming mature and well structured. Co-operation between our industries is gathering momentum, and our justice and interior ministries are participating energetically in dialogue. We are promoting scientific, cultural and humanitarian contactsin a streamlined and systematic manner with the goal of establishing four areas of common interest: economic issues and the environment; issues of freedom, security and justice; external security, including crisis management and non-proliferation; and research and education, including cultural aspects.

We also have similar approaches to issues of international security. Russia and the EU stand for strengthening universal regimes, primarily the non-proliferation regime. In spite of tactical differences, we have a common desire to find a fair solution to the most complicated international problems, such as the Middle East conflict or the issue of the Iranian "nuclear dossier".

Russia is closely watching the EU's evolution, not least because the pace of development of our relations and their future depend largely on changes in the EU. The Union could remain a predominantly intergovernmental association or acquire supranational functions. Russia wants its largest neighbour to be stable and predictable, and hopes that changes and expansion will not erode the EU's uniform legal framework, primarily in the sphere of ensuring equal rights to all EU people irrespective of country of origin, nationality and religion.

We are developing relations with the EU with a view to the future, not the present day. I firmly believe that dialogue should not be limited merely to technical or "industrial" issues such as quotas, tariffs and anti-dumping and technical standards, although these are important and should be addressed jointly. Rather, I think we should first decide what we want from each other over the next several decades and what we can do for our people.

Russia's approach to the future of European integration is well known. Our main objective is to create a common economic space and guarantee freedom of movement for our people, as advocated by our business, cultural and scientific communities. A long and complicated road leads to the fulfilment of these objectives, which are nevertheless quite feasible. Many partners in the EU share this approach.

We will soon start working together on a new accord to replace the partnership and co-operation agreement expiring in 2007. We hope the EU-Russia summit in November will give a boost to the negotiations. Our dialogue so far shows that we see eye-to-eye on many provisions of the future agreement. Russia thinks it should be a compact but politically significant document geared toward the future and stipulating clearly defined goals and mechanisms for equal co-operation.

I hope that joint work on this document will bring Russia and the EU closer together. Future talks should not deteriorate into an exchange of complaints. We will not be able to turn a new leaf in the history of our co-operation if we succumb to fear of growing interdependence. Those who warn of the danger of Europe becoming dependent on Russia see Russia-EU relations in black and white and try to fit them into the obsolete mould of "friend or foe". Such stereotypes have little in common with reality, but their persistent influence on political thinking and practice runs the risk of creating fresh divisions in Europe. The past must not be used to divide us, because we cannot rewrite history. Our current goal is to join forces so that Russia and the EU can build a common future as partners and allies. Russia is prepared to work for this and I hope a constructive approach will also prevail in the EU.

The writer is president of Russia

Copyright The Financial Times Limited 2006

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/c60e9d12-7a01-11db-8d70-0000779e2340.html

Flamming_Python

11-22-2006, 02:13 PM

An interesting article I came across which underlines my posts about Economics, and protecting ones own markets until they are sufficently developed. Continue reading to the bottom as well:

http://www.thepigsite.com/articles/7/markets-and-economics/1561/russia-livestock-and-products-semiannual-february-2006

Russia practises these types of economics, unlike many smaller and poorer countries in the 3rd world whose markets are harrassed with lack of free trade and no subsidies. If there is no foreign investment, it is the only way to develop the industry in question sufficently. And most foreign investment so far in Russia has gone to the energy and consumer goods commerical sectors.

dundun

11-22-2006, 04:22 PM

Flamming_Python

11-22-2006, 04:28 PM

One question to russian members: If Russia bans the EU meat, what are you gonna eat?:fork:

For not so long time ago in Russia you could buy meat wrapped in an old newspaper, and now som many demands about hygiene? strange:roll:

well, thanks to Poland the rest of Europe can see how reliable partner Russia really is - using gas deliveries and meat bans to accomplish political issues.

From the information I gathered so far, it's done in order to protect domestic industries, and encourage Russians to purchase their own agricultural produce, while the process of state investment into them is still on-going.

This state investment was implemented as a result of Agriculture being listed as a national project last year, and is neccessery because of severe lack of foreign or private domestic investment into the sector. In terms of agricultural production and sophistication, Russia lags far behind the West, and therefore the Russian government has tried to create a solution to this problem, albeit one that might spoil relations with foriegn countries. However even now, the government hopes that state investment now, will lead to more private investment in the long-term.

Of course, that isn't to say that the gripes about certificates and health standards are not valid. It's just to say that they aren't the most important factor in Russia's decision. But then again maybe they are, we can only speculate.

You can read about the facts arbitrallily in the link I posted above. And once again, I repeat, I doubt that Politics played a very big part in Russia's decision.

Russia has simply adopted an interventionist tactic in its economic policies in some issues. While you can argue that a completly liberal model free of state influence will be better in perhaps other industries, for Russian agriculture, a field that collapsed with the end of the USSR, and has failed to revive (and keeps on shrinking) during Putin's earlier reforms (whereas most other industries did resurrect), I can only see it as neccessery.

daily666

11-22-2006, 05:10 PM

Gentlemen - in case you hadn't noticed, the subject of this thread is Poland holds up EU-Russia talks - that is not an excuse for a Poland Vs. Russia p!ssing/mud slinging fest.

To use a Scots expression, I'm only a ba' hair (ball hair - very small distance) away from locking this topic and flinging in an infraction grenade - you know what they are like, all those in the room including by-standers get fragged.

Got it?

Wise up and settle down.

:bash:

Well some people try to put the discussion into a flame contest but as far as I see it it's only slightly off the real topic as the situation develops real time. At this moment it's become more of an EU - Russia row no matters what some may think it is, hence the change in the discussion subject. I understand you're keeping an eye on this thread, as the sides and subject is a clear way to hell (wich means total flamewar) but aside from some, already infracted, people it's really civilised discussion here. Personally I didn't want to make more news threads with all those newswire posted here, as it strictly concerns the EU - Russia gas talks.

P.S. Please don't ban me :)

From the information I gathered so far, it's done in order to protect domestic industries, and encourage Russians to purchase their own agricultural produce, while the process of state investment into them is still on-going...

Flamming, that's a very interesting idea and it's hard to disagree with you, but than I'd again focus on the means with which Russia is protecting it's own markets. Taking into consideration only the economical issue of this row, I did some check up and see that whole EU export is $1.318 trillion, and 4.7% of that is going to Russia, while EU imports is $1.402 trillion and 7.8% of that is coming from Russia. This gives some idea about who has to loose more in direct no-matter-what-sales-row. Honestly, assuming both parties would ban everything each way which is hard to believe.

Also worth mentioning that 26.5% or more of all Russian export goes to EU countries (three biggest are Netherlands - 10.3%, Germany - 8.3%, Italy - 7.9%) of $245 billion. I checked that on CIA world factbook but I guess the economical data is not false over there.

Because I'm used to business issues from my job point of view, I'd say escalating of this is not in anyone's interest and Russia is in slightly worse situation. It also depends how much the EU market is worth for Russia. The whole Russia's export/import amount is not that big that means there's a big internal market, but than, we're back to fossil fuels (gas & oil) and you cannot really sell more internally than the real demand.

Flamming_Python

11-22-2006, 05:27 PM

Flamming, that's a very interesting idea and it's hard to disagree with you, but than I'd again focus on the means with which Russia is protecting it's own markets. Taking into consideration only the economical issue of this row, I did some check up and see that whole EU export is $1.318 trillion, and 4.7% of that is going to Russia, while EU imports is $1.402 trillion and 7.8% of that is coming from Russia. This gives some idea about who has to loose more in direct no-matter-what-sales-row. Honestly, assuming both parties would ban everything each way which is hard to believe.

Also worth mentioning that 26.5% or more of all Russian export goes to EU countries (three biggest are Netherlands - 10.3%, Germany - 8.3%, Italy - 7.9%) of $245 billion. I checked that on CIA world factbook but I guess the economical data is not false over there.

Because I'm used to business issues from my job point of view, I'd say escalating of this is not in anyone's interest and Russia is in slightly worse situation. It also depends how much the EU market is worth for Russia. The whole Russia's export/import amount is not that big that means there's a big internal market, but than, we're back to fossil fuels (gas & oil) and you cannot really sell more internally than the real demand.

Yes, it does seem like a bit of a Protectionist policy to me (promoting exports while reducing imports), especially if the state-sponsorred revival of domestic industries, is to create a surplus that could exceed domestic demand and then could be exported.

But it has repeatedly been agreed upon that this would be a temporary policy to achieve that which the free market could not. Once the primary agriculture centre is up to full-scratch, to a point where it would be able to compete with foreign agricultural goods on an equal basis, there would be no more need to cut down on imports, as while these actions help now, they will only deteoriorate the economy later on when it becomes more developed (due to lack of competition). Russia is not at all opposed to foreign and private investment into any of its industries bar the most crucial ones (military and energy, whereby it forms partnerships and joint projects rather than allowing direct investment).

However, if there is no investment from the internal market or external, than Russia must nontheless get potentially massive sectors of it's economy up to scratch by any means neccessery. After all, the USSR had a larger agriculture industry than America, but due to their policy of selling it to their own population at extermely low prices (don't know about exports), the USSR managed to create a shortage while not gaining any profit. A capitalist Russia would be far more successfull if it's agriculture was boosted up to speed again.

While a free market achieved revival for Poland, it did so at the cost of fully intergrating Poland into the EU, which is no bad thing for Poland. However, Russia is more ambitious, as the country has the oppurtunity to create it's own financial centres & industrial outputs, as well as acting as a bridge between Europe and Asia (but not fully intergrating with one at the loss of the other). Self-sufficency of the Russian market is also important (being able to provide basic consumer goods & neccessities via domestic industries), due to possible deterioration of relations with its trading partners.

I hope I found the truth in this one. They say that the truth often lies in the middle ground. And in this case, the middle ground may well be to admitting that this ban was not primarily because of fake certificates, or because of politics.

asch

11-23-2006, 03:16 AM

One question to russian members: If Russia bans the EU meat, what are you gonna eat?:fork:
russian made meat. or chinese. simple. do you really think that EU made meat make it's way over Ural?

and about paper issue - every country have it's redneck habits. we got a lot of this shyte in hard 90s. now it's different.

Sergei

11-23-2006, 04:25 AM

daily666

11-23-2006, 05:17 AM

Ah, the danish rednecks are no different than russian rednecks.

Again, you failed to see the Russia's point which is very bad. Russia is protecting its market, EU is also protecting its market. Poland is not complaining when their meat is not allowed in EU, only Russia.

EU has never banned Polish meat, so you've missed with that one. In fact EU has never banned anything from Poland IIRC.

There are no political issues here involved. Are there any? What can Russia can gain politically from Poland by banning their meat?

To make a rift within EU in gas talks, and to show "look at those Poles, it's impossible to talk with them, so let's forget about them and make an agreement without Poland". It's how you play with those things, is it really that hard to find out? Now Russia took the bigger caliber gun and threatned to ban all EU meat in 2007. The Russians here on MP.net see that, so why can't you?

Sergei

11-23-2006, 05:41 AM

EU has never banned Polish meat, so you've missed with that one. In fact EU has never banned anything from Poland IIRC.

If that was the truth, than Poland would be selling meat to EU market, instead of bitching about Russia closing its markets. You don't get it do you? Russian market is already occupied by internal producers, this is a non-issue for Russia now.

To make a rift within EU in gas talks, and to show "look at those Poles, it's impossible to talk with them, so let's forget about them and make an agreement without Poland". It's how you play with those things, is it really that hard to find out? Now Russia took the bigger caliber gun and threatned to ban all EU meat in 2007. The Russians here on MP.net see that, so why can't you?

Yes, you are partially right, but is it really possible to talk with the Polish government about something? You start talking economic issues they immediately bring Katyn into the negotiations, or other similar stuff. It has been that way for 15 years. Russia stopped paying attention and that what drives those Kachinsky brothers nuts - everybody ignores them.
About meat ban - see Russia acts exactly the same way for all meat suppliers, not singling out Poland or doing it deliberatly to Poland.
Imagine that Russia started every economic negotiation with Poland starting with the Bereza-Kartuzska concentration camp mentioning (if you didn't know what it is - Polish run concentration camp where an estimated number of 100000 Red Army POWs perished due to inhuman condition and torturing)?
That would lead nowhere.

Switek

11-23-2006, 05:48 AM

If that was the truth, than Poland would be selling meat to EU market, instead of bitching about Russia closing its markets. You don't get it do you? Russian market is already occupied by internal producers, this is a non-issue for Russia now.

Yes, you are partially right, but is it really possible to talk with the Polish government about something? You start talking economic issues they immediately bring Katyn into the negotiations, or other similar stuff. It has been that way for 15 years. Russia stopped paying attention and that what drives those Kachinsky brothers nuts - everybody ignores them.
About meat ban - see Russia acts exactly the same way for all meat suppliers, not singling out Poland or doing it deliberatly to Poland.
Imagine that Russia started every economic negotiation with Poland starting with the Bereza-Kartuzska concentration camp mentioning (if you didn't know what it is - Polish run concentration camp where an estimated number of 100000 Red Army POWs perished due to inhuman condition and torturing)?
That would lead nowhere.
......:cantbeli:

Bereza is a shame of our history but do not use soviet propaganda arguments from soviet era books and false historic arguments... Sergei, do you have any idea what this thread is about?

*^*

11-23-2006, 05:49 AM

If that was the truth, than Poland would be selling meat to EU market, instead of bitching about Russia closing its markets. You don't get it do you?

Dude, you've got no idea what you are talking about.

Flamming_Python

11-23-2006, 06:38 AM

Sergei does have a point. Not about the concentration camps, but rather about Poland constantly bringing in irrelevant details and basing its arguement on Russia on past history. While Russia is not a defeated power, it did suffer a terrible collapse and found itself in a very weak position not too removed from the original Time of Troubles.

When Germany lost WW1, the allies couldn't care less, and behaved like classic imperialistic powers, stripping Germany for all its worth, and destroying its economy, and make it assume sole responsibility for the war (which was of course false). This situation gave Hitler the foundations that he needed, in order to eventually come to power after the secound major crisis (the Great Depression).

After WW2 of course, the story goes that the allies realised that this kind of thing is creates people like Hitler, and choose to help Germany rebuild itself, rather than hamper it. Or did they? It seems to me, that the only reason they helped Germany, was as a counter-balance to the USSR, although Germany has by now transformed into a very prosperous society.

However, when the Cold War ended, there was no more enemy, and therefore the "allies" once again went into this "grab all you can mode", in terms of Russia's former influence and resources. Took what they can, and gave thier moral support to the Oligarchs into leaving the rest of Russia to rot and die out. While blamming 90's Russia on the West would be a distortion of the truth, Western actions of course did not help the Russian people, who were already under the control of the corrupt and criminal in their own country.

Poland figures into this, by playing on certain fears, what if Russia rose up again? It would again seek to dominate us, no questions asked, so we must seek to keep them down as long as possible. Poland, of course claims about Putin's lack of democracy, etc... Which I suppose are fair enough points, even if somewhat one-sided (how many of you have been to Putin's Russia?)

But you got to understand, that for Russians, the fact that Russia's "lack of democracy" co-incides with it finally picking itself out of the dirt and increasing its power and stability, is simply too much of a co-incidence for us to ignore. It makes us think that people are simply afraid of and seek to undermine a strong Russia, just as they always been throughout history, irrelevant of what leadership is in power. Therefore the wise thing to do, would be to alievate our fears, and to work with us rather than against us. Poland never tried the route of diplomacy when it came to Putin. It just immediately started lecturing Russia about this and that, while telling the outside world Russia can't be trusted because of Katyn, etc... So just what the hell did Poland expect when Russia is now trying to ignore it?

I think Russia realises that trying to gain influence in Poland is hopeless. The government of Poland will be able to justify any action or situation on the basis of the need to keep itself safe from "Undemocratic" Russia. Much like a nationalist government that may come to power in the Kremlin would be able to justify any action by needing to keep itself safe from the West, or America justifying all measures in the name of the 'War on Terror'. But if the whole world thought like that, where would we be? Sometimes what is needed, is an open mind and an outstreched hand.

Coming back to the meat ban, I wouldn't be too surprised if the issue does turn out to be political rather than economic. But considering Russian sensitivities in this industry (as detailed in my last few posts), and the banning of products from countries other than Polands, I would more likely suspect that Poland is simply making a big deal out of nothing in order to achieve it's own agendas and aims.

Sergei

11-23-2006, 06:55 AM

Dude, you've got no idea what you are talking about.

You tell me. Poland can't sell meat worth the freaking 400 million euros, and Russia is to blame. Am I missing something?
You are slapped with strict quotas how much meat you can sell to EU. Why don't you bitch about that?

Flamming_Python

11-23-2006, 06:57 AM

You tell me. Poland can't sell meat worth the freaking 400 million euros, and Russia is to blame. Am I missing something?
You are slapped with strict quotas how much meat you can sell to EU. Why don't you bitch about that?

Can you provide any more information on these quotas?

Sergei

11-23-2006, 07:10 AM

Can you provide any more information on these quotas?

Could find stuff about milk quotas so far.
http://www.cee-foodindustry.com/news/ng.asp?id=71014-eu-milk-quotas-fines-report

http://www.warsawvoice.pl/view/11433/

"The exports figures would be much better were it not for the restrictions introduced by Russia and Ukraine. The Russians decided to close their market to Polish meat in response to numerous cases of forging export certificates. Recently, Ukraine resorted to a similar step, blocking Polish meat exports, probably under Russian pressure, because Polish meat was smuggled via this country.

The blockade of Polish meat exports to the East has not paralyzed the Polish meat sector, which accounts for about 10 percent of total exports, yet it has seriously affected it. Polish exports to the East mostly include products that are not very popular in EU countries-and now these goods are piling up in warehouses.

Poland, while not denying that certain irregularities have occurred, argues that the Russian sanctions are disproportionate to the actual scope of the violations, and that they contradict the Russian-EU agreement on partnership and cooperation that bans commercial restrictions. Poland is trying to persuade the European Commission and its EU partners that the ban on Polish exports goes beyond bilateral Polish-Russian relations and is a problem for the EU's overall commercial contacts with Russia. However, for the time being, the Commission has limited itself to expressing its "serious concern" over the continued Russian ban on importing produce from Poland."