View Full Version : "Russian gas pipeline a military threat" - Swedish defence minister
Resurrection
11-14-2006, 05:29 PM
I thought this (http://www.dn.se/DNet/jsp/polopoly.jsp?d=1042&a=588619) was pretty interesting if not a little paranoid.
Here's the translated article.
"The Russian gas pipeline under the Baltic Sea involves an obvious military-political problem for Sweden," defence minister Mikael Odenberg admits. Experts warn of Russian espionage and military friction. Also Ulrica Messing, Social Democratic chairperson of the defence committee, warned on Tuesday that the maintenence platform which will be located near the island of Gotland can become problematic, referring to Swedish military interests in the area.
According to Messing, Russia is already today using similar platforms in other places around the world to collect intelligence about other nations. A pipeline through Sweden's economic zone would give the Russians a chance to expose sensitive matters of a military nature. Defence minister Mikael Odenberg tells DN that he fully agrees with Ulrica Messing.
"We get a pipeline that motivates Russian naval presence in our economic zone. Not to mention that it can, if they wish, be utilised for intelligence activity - it's most certainly a problem," he explains. Messing is given support from Robert Larsson, researcher at the Swedish Defence Research Agency. He believes that the pipeline and maintenence station will be equipped with two different monitoring systems.
"Placing sensors such as hydrophone buoys, pressure meters, etc. around the pipeline will enable the Russians to register movement in the waters above. If they later match these movements with ship databases and other intelligence about the traffic patterns of the Swedish naval fleet, they will soon be able to tell exactly which ship is passing," he says.
http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/5821/balticseamapwithpipelinji5.th.jpg (http://img217.imageshack.us/my.php?image=balticseamapwithpipelinji5.jpg)
The planned Nord Stream pipeline
Bo Huldt, professor at the Swedish National Defence College, warns for a monitoring "fence" right through the Baltic Sea.
"No one will be able to move over the sea without the Russians knowing it. The Baltic Sea will be divided all over again, in a way we haven't seen since the Cold War. The Baltic fleet is according to president Vladimir Putin going to play a big role in the protection of the pipeline, which can result in increased military friction," Robert Larsson points out.
Preventing the Russians from using the gas pipeline for intelligence purposes is going to be difficult. Defence minister Mikael Odenberg states that the government will have limited chances of influencing the project.
"The areas where we do have influence mostly deal with the environmental aspects," he adds.
According to professor Bo Huldt, the challenge could lead to a demand of new Swedish frigates, which have greater endurance and will be able to keep an eye on the Russians.
"But let's first handle the application that Nord Stream is going to hand in before we start talking about frigates".
oh please. more anti-Russia paranoia.
Russia has more important things to do that collect intel on the Swedes.
Resurrection
11-14-2006, 06:02 PM
oh please. more anti-Russia paranoia.
Russia has more important things to do that collect intel on the Swedes.
I don't know about you but I definately feel uncomfortable having the navy of a country not so long ago regarded as the de-facto enemy inside our economic zone, just outside Sweden's largest and most populated island.
The article itself may be a little paranoid, but try looking at the big picture.
I don't know about you but I definately feel uncomfortable having the navy of a country not so long ago regarded as the de-facto enemy inside our economic zone, kilometers away from our largest and most populated island.
The article itself may be a little paranoid, but try looking at the big picture.
at least the Swedish navy will profit from this.
Hellfish
11-14-2006, 06:08 PM
oh please. more anti-Russia paranoia.
Russia has more important things to do that collect intel on the Swedes.
A nice break from the Russian paranoia, though. ;)
oh please. more anti-Russia paranoia.
Russia has more important things to do that collect intel on the Swedes.
Uhm, this is what's going on in the real world, welcome.
And just like it says in the article the russians may, in the future, through the pipeline show "just cause" for military presence in the swedish economic zone. They're not welcome, and that's a fact that opens up for military friction, and possibly war.
signatory
11-14-2006, 06:30 PM
There's no delivery and economical reasons to build the pipeline other than to create a alternative route to the European mainland, bypassing the East-Euro states.
Thus continue to earn money and face less political pressure during a Ukraine styled conflict.
NATO worries:
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=97161
CRAZY MERC
11-14-2006, 06:50 PM
Example of pure idiotism.
Flamming_Python
11-14-2006, 06:51 PM
Uhm, this is what's going on in the real world, welcome.
And just like it says in the article the russians may, in the future, through the pipeline show "just cause" for military presence in the swedish economic zone. They're not welcome, and that's a fact that opens up for military friction, and possibly war.
And the Swedes may have their own ulterior motives for opposing its construction. Who knows? :roll:
Do you know what the words “200-mile economic zone” mean? This is not the same as “12-mile territorial waters”.
Any military ships of any country can sail in any “economic zone” freely, and they really do it. And collect any intelligence information quite legally on daily basis.
By the way, the pipeline is not “Russian”, though Gazprom really holds 51% share in it. The other 49% are German, and this share is lesser only because of the own cowardice.
Almost all underwater part of the pipeline will be built by the German firms, only the tubes will be made in Russia.
Thus, the article is absolute and ridiculous bullшit and all its essence is in the phrase “the challenge could lead to a demand of new Swedish frigates”.
A nice break from the Russian paranoia, though. ;)
i though you were with us.
commisar, we have a traitor in our midsts!!!!!!!!!!
Preventing the Russians from using the gas pipeline for intelligence purposes is going to be difficult.
such a pearl.
:)
signatory
11-14-2006, 10:52 PM
The translation is a bit off... the defence minister talked about the political threat while the defense commiteé woman said military threat.
Still their points are just fine. Considering:
Russia has recently used gas supplies as a tool of extortion.
Russia has no obvious business reason to add a new pipeline due to its already existing market domination.
Russia has a very poor environmental record and show no attempts to better it.
Russia has close ties between civilian, political and military entities by its control in Gazprom and associated media.
Russia has used pipelines elsewhere for intelligence gathering.
But it's really only the environmental issue that can stop the project. So when they talk about a security threat they talk on a domestic political level.
signatory
11-15-2006, 12:33 AM
By the way, the pipeline is not “Russian”, though Gazprom really holds 51% share in it. The other 49% are German, and this share is lesser only because of the own cowardice.
Nordstream AG is controlled by the Russian State via Gazprom.
Though acting under Swiss corporate law.
The German state have no ownership in Nord Stream AG, just 2 German based private corporations each with minority stakes.
BASF AG 24.5% and E.ON AG 24.5%
Gazprom single majority owner 51%
It is indeed a Russian state-controlled pipeline in the making.
Russia has recently used gas supplies as a tool of extortion.
NATO has used military force as a tool of exerting its will... they must be disarmed immediately!!
Russia has no obvious business reason to add a new pipeline due to its already existing market domination.
Or it could be they are responding to Ukrainian extortion closing off the pipeline to europe in protest at the price they pay. This new pipeline will allow the Russians to get a reliable energy supply to europe that they ahve full control of. Makes obvious business sense.
Russia has a very poor environmental record and show no attempts to better it.
No worse than western oil companies in third world countries. Besides this pipeline is half german and they have an excellent record in that regard. If they don't look after the pipeline it will fail to deliver the product, which will hurt them financially.
Russia has close ties between civilian, political and military entities by its control in Gazprom and associated media.
George Bush snr and jnr are both in the oil business... how has that effected US policy?
Russia has used pipelines elsewhere for intelligence gathering.
The SOSUS network dwarfs this pipelines potential by a factor of thousands of times.
I don't know about you but I definately feel uncomfortable having the navy of a country not so long ago regarded as the de-facto enemy inside our economic zone, just outside Sweden's largest and most populated island.
So you probably feel rather uncomfortable about Germany having an army and navy inside the EU?
The article itself may be a little paranoid, but try looking at the big picture.
Yes, try looking at the big picture. If they wanted to spy on Sweden they could send boats to all the locations these pipes are going anyway. This pipeline will mean uninterupted energy supply for western europe. The economic costs of unreliable fuel supplies are larger than any hypothetical threat to swedish soverignty.
Friendly Fire
11-15-2006, 02:47 AM
The SOSUS network dwarfs this pipelines potential by a factor of thousands of times.
So you probably feel rather uncomfortable about Germany having an army and navy inside the EU?
Underlined the words you took out of my mouth.
The swedes aren't playing that Rule Norge **** again. In the past they've protected their Norwegian friends againt Russian competition and despite that Norway is still the less competitive of both. However Norway sells almost 90% of it's gas and Oil to the EU-zone!
Do you know what the words “200-mile economic zone” mean? This is not the same as “12-mile territorial waters”.
Any military ships of any country can sail in any “economic zone” freely, and they really do it. And collect any intelligence information quite legally on daily basis.
By the way, the pipeline is not “Russian”, though Gazprom really holds 51% share in it. The other 49% are German, and this share is lesser only because of the own cowardice.
Almost all underwater part of the pipeline will be built by the German firms, only the tubes will be made in Russia.
Thus, the article is absolute and ridiculous bullшit and all its essence is in the phrase “the challenge could lead to a demand of new Swedish frigates”.
If you look at the map you gone se that the pipeline gone go cross the Swedish island Gotland.
Lets bring back P18 p-)
Friendly Fire
11-15-2006, 03:24 AM
If you look at the map you gone se that the pipeline gone go cross the Swedish island Gotland.
Lets bring back P18 p-)
It's a scheme and it looks like it was made by a 4 year old learning how to use MS paint.
Sergei
11-15-2006, 04:20 AM
Another warmongering cry to build more Swedish ships. At the end everybody wins. Germany and Russia construct their pipeline and make a lot of money. Sweden builds more ships and its Navy also gets on the budget and some taxpayers money. Everybody is happy.
IronFinn
11-15-2006, 04:47 AM
Well, according finnish military the pipe will be layed over
our undervater electronic surveillance equipment.
So no can do for this project!
XShipRider
11-15-2006, 05:30 AM
One look at the very restrictive waters of the the Baltic makes it near
impossible to 'hide' in those waters anyway. Ship movements could be
monitored by daily flights with surface search radars. No doubt this
happens already to some degree.
Dust off a couple of old russian trawlers, throw a new radar on them
then monitor 24/7. I don't see the problem other than the pipeline
itself is a tad close to the Swedish owned island.
The Russians monitored carrier groups in the open seas of the world's
oceans for years using aircraft and trawlers. The Baltic is not so
big they couldn't almost do this with their eyes closed.
This thread is ridiculous. There's nothing here that's up for discussion. We don't have to explain ourselves to any russians, not now and not ever.
You stay on your side of the pond and we'll stay on our side.
Flamming_Python
11-15-2006, 06:03 AM
This thread is ridiculous. There's nothing here that's up for discussion. We don't have to explain ourselves to any russians, not now and not ever.
You stay on your side of the pond and we'll stay on our side.
I'm sorry you feel that way.
Why they build it so near of finnish coast? It is much longer than building it on near estonian coast.
Flamming_Python
11-15-2006, 06:20 AM
Why they build it so near of finnish coast? It is much longer than building it on near estonian coast.
Dunno. Pehaps the Estonians weren't too happy about it and refused permission?
Dunno. Pehaps the Estonians weren't too happy about it and refused permission?
Maybe that, that Estonia is NATO member has something on this case?
Flamming_Python
11-15-2006, 06:25 AM
Maybe that, that Estonia is NATO member has something on this case?
This is not a military matter. Rather it is an economic thing which is tied into the unstable political situation in Eastern Europe (in regards to Russia that is), so why would NATO have anything to do with it?
This is not a military matter. Rather it is an economic thing which is tied into the unstable political situation in Eastern Europe (in regards to Russia that is), so why would NATO have anything to do with it?
I dont get any other reasons.
I'm sorry you feel that way.
Don't be. We just want status quo. That has kept us out of wars for almost 200 years.
IronFinn
11-15-2006, 06:53 AM
One look at the very restrictive waters of the the Baltic makes it near
impossible to 'hide' in those waters anyway. Ship movements could be
monitored by daily flights with surface search radars. No doubt this
happens already to some degree.
Dust off a couple of old russian trawlers, throw a new radar on them
then monitor 24/7. I don't see the problem other than the pipeline
itself is a tad close to the Swedish owned island.
The Russians monitored carrier groups in the open seas of the world's
oceans for years using aircraft and trawlers. The Baltic is not so
big they couldn't almost do this with their eyes closed.
Well, the surveillance is not so much for the surface ships than for the subs obviously.
Sergei
11-15-2006, 09:48 AM
Don't be. We just want status quo. That has kept us out of wars for almost 200 years.
While quietly supplying the nazis with iron ore and other natural resources. ;) As far as I know there was no tungsten in Germany to make the King Tiger armor as strong as it was.
Winston Churchill kept you out of wars, you should thank him. Otherwise Uncle Joe would exercise his bombing runs on you.
Digimon
11-15-2006, 11:12 AM
Still their points are just fine. Considering:
Russia has recently used gas supplies as a tool of extortion.
Russia has no obvious business reason to add a new pipeline due to its already existing market domination.
Russia has a very poor environmental record and show no attempts to better it.
Russia has close ties between civilian, political and military entities by its control in Gazprom and associated media.
Russia has used pipelines elsewhere for intelligence gathering.
Even if these points were true, Sweden’s reaction is unjustified. One gets the impression that Russia’s image in Europe has a life of its own, reflecting national politics of individual countries rather than a rational assessment of the situation. Discussing “Russian threat” has become a new way of scoring points in national politics across Europe; an entirely fictional political discourse not unlike the eminent threat of WMD in Iraq, John Kerry’s war record, or other contemporary political mythology. The problem is that the internal demand for these discussion has moved everyone so much beyond the questioning of the initial assumptions that it seems quite reasonable to debate the fine points like the question whether Russia wants to nuke Europe all at once or in rapid succession.
The assumptions you list are false. But just like you no one in Europe is willing to question them; the public opinion has been already formed and all that remains now is to play well the cards that are already dealt... In the short-term, politically, this makes perfect sense...
snyder
11-15-2006, 11:57 AM
The Russian gas pipeline under the Baltic sea involves an obvious military-political problem for sweden.
Maybe the russians believe sweden = chechnya?
sweds= environmentalist
ruskies= dontgiveadamnbout****
you do the math.
Herrmannek
11-15-2006, 02:15 PM
sweds= environmentalist
ruskies= dontgiveadamnbout****
you do the math.
Balitic sea is technicaly/practicaly internal sea of EU, We can give a poo about Russias wants and donts, it seems political will to halt this project among EU countries is rising, so my bet is Putin will have to swallow this time :)
Balitic sea is technicaly/practicaly internal sea of EU, We can give a poo about Russias wants and donts, it seems political will to halt this project among EU countries is rising, so my bet is Putin will have to swallow this time :)
thats nice , at least all the fish will thank you for not screwing up their environment.
Herrmannek
11-15-2006, 02:38 PM
thats nice , at least all the fish will thank you for not screwing up their environment.
don't mistake reasons with excuses :)
johanness
11-15-2006, 02:38 PM
This project will be for sure not stopped.
Poland and Ukraine want 1 billion € a year for transfer throug their countries.
The costs for the pipeline is 5 billion €.
So after 5 years Germany can save a lot of money...
don't mistake reasons with excuses :)
i was trying to be funny....oh well..:cantbeli:
perdurabo
11-15-2006, 03:16 PM
This project will be for sure not stopped.
Poland and Ukraine want 1 billion € a year for transfer throug their countries.
The costs for the pipeline is 5 billion €.
So after 5 years Germany can save a lot of money...
did you counted how much it will cost to man this pipe? building it is one thing keeping it running is other.
I understand Russian stance on this matter, but i don't get German one.
Flamming_Python
11-15-2006, 04:19 PM
did you counted how much it will cost to man this pipe? building it is one thing keeping it running is other.
I understand Russian stance on this matter, but i don't get German one.
Perhaps because Germany wants it's gas to come independently of all the troubles East of its border?
Herrmannek
11-15-2006, 04:28 PM
Perhaps because Germany wants it's gas to come independently of all the troubles East of its border?
Don't want to nitpick but only problem to west from Germany is Russia, problem IN GERMANY is German think that licking bears ass make it happy long time :)
daily666
11-15-2006, 04:45 PM
Balitic sea is technicaly/practicaly internal sea of EU, We can give a poo about Russias wants and donts, it seems political will to halt this project among EU countries is rising, so my bet is Putin will have to swallow this time :)
I suggest you read this: http://www.un.org/Depts/los/convention_agreements/texts/unclos/closindx.htm
Section 2 Article 3
Every State has the right to establish the breadth of its territorial sea up to a limit not exceeding 12 nautical miles, measured from baselines determined in accordance with this Convention.
Territorial waters are only 12 NM from the coast, so it's not technically or practically an EU internal sea, Russia and Germany can build whatever they want over there unless it's illegal or against international law.
I think this pipeline will be built and we won't do anything about it.
http://rigzone.com/images/news/library/maps/15/4078.jpg
The project has already been approved by the EU authorities. The pipeline is built and owned not by “Russia”, but by the Swiss company Nord Stream AG (it is irrelevant who are its shareholders, as it acts by the laws of Switzerland):“Wednesday, October 04, 2006 The EU Commission has therefore declared that the planned pipeline under the Baltic Sea is a priority energy project and it has confirmed the special status of the project as part of the Trans European Network (TEN-E). Matthias Warnig, Managing Director of the company founded to plan, construct and operate the pipeline welcomed the decision on Wednesday at a press conference in Zug, Switzerland: "…" The company founded by Gazprom (51%), Wintershall and E.ON Ruhrgas (24.5% each) opened its head office in Zug, Switzerland on Wednesday under its new name Nord Stream AG.” [you can easily find the link if you wish]
The third and last foreign participant in the North-European gas pipeline (Nord Stream, formerly NEGP) has been chosen. Holland's Gasunie will obtain 9% in the project in exchange for 9% in the Balgzan Bacton Line (BBL) pipeline. The deal should give Russian energy giant Gazprom extra support in the European Union, and a new chance to enter the British gas market.In short, the additional participant of Nord Stream AG will appear soon, from the Netherlands.
Probably the German companies developing and building the underwater pipeline have already divided the contracts and included them into the plans and schedules. Does anybody expect seriously their refusal of juicy profits for the sake of various miserable Poles?
The cost and environmental considerations are total bullshiт. The North Sea is deeper, but the pipelines to Norway and UK work. Just as the pipeline from the North Africa to Italy. And gas is not oil, it harmlessly dissolves in water or in atmosphere. P.S. Russian-German Trade Up 30.6% in Six Months (http://www.fcinfo.ru/themes/basic/materials-rfcm-index.asp?folder=3306&foundID=116493)
Trade between Russia and Germany increased by 30.6% to $19.9 bln in the first six months of this year. Russia’s export to Germany grew 28.6% to $12.3 bln, while import rose 34.1% to $7.6 bln, the Economic Development Ministry reports.
daily666
11-15-2006, 05:31 PM
The funny part is that Poland was invited to join the project. But our dumbarse politicians always preferred the honourable defeat rather than rational thinking.
Flamming_Python
11-15-2006, 06:10 PM
The funny part is that Poland was invited to join the project. But our dumbarse politicians always preferred the honourable defeat rather than rational thinking.
Didn't know that actually.
I'm pretty sure that there will be other energy projects heading Polands way from Russia (assuming the current problems are resolved) as the Russian energy industry continues to mobilise, but the boat for Gas has already sailed, I think.
Macs.
11-15-2006, 06:45 PM
Where there is alot of money floating around there are always people/countries which (of course) want a part of the cake.
Friendly Fire
11-16-2006, 01:47 AM
Don't be. We just want status quo. That has kept us out of wars for almost 200 years.
No your neutrality (should I read cowardice) has kept you away from troubles.
As for the pipeline meh it will be in the narrow gap called international waters...
Friendly Fire
11-16-2006, 01:50 AM
Balitic sea is technicaly/practicaly internal sea of EU, We can give a poo about Russias wants and donts, it seems political will to halt this project among EU countries is rising, so my bet is Putin will have to swallow this time :)
There are the so called Intl. Waters...Shove it mr. Polish Gorilla!
Sergei
11-16-2006, 04:33 AM
Don't want to nitpick but only problem to west from Germany is Russia, problem IN GERMANY is German think that licking bears ass make it happy long time :)
Don't want to nitpick either but Poland had to develop that huge Pinocchio nose in order to sniff up US arse, because otherwise Uncle Sam is too far away. But you still managed to do it. Now Germany is thinking how to kick that "Trojan Horse" out of EU. ;)
Herrmannek
11-16-2006, 04:37 AM
Don't want to nitpick either but Poland had to develop that huge Pinocchio nose in order to sniff up US arse, because otherwise Uncle Sam is too far away. But you still managed to do it. Now Germany is thinking how to kick that "Trojan Horse" out of EU. ;)
because there can be only ONE Trojan Horse in EU :)
daily666
11-16-2006, 04:53 AM
No your neutrality (should I read cowardice) has kept you away from troubles.
No, it's not neutrality or cowardice, it's called Realpolitik...
Friendly Fire
11-16-2006, 08:14 AM
No, it's not neutrality or cowardice, it's called Realpolitik...
No history wise it's called cowardice...unless you want to elaborate on Swedish eugenism and other related matters?
daily666
11-16-2006, 08:40 AM
No history wise it's called cowardice...unless you want to elaborate on Swedish eugenism and other related matters?
Well It's been quite an official name for the Swidish foreign policy during the first and second world war. Some may see it as cowardice, I think they were just rational.
Friendly Fire
11-16-2006, 08:57 AM
Well It's been quite an official name for the Swidish foreign policy during the first and second world war. Some may see it as cowardice, I think they were just rational.
Oh So the Molotov-Ribbetropp agreement was a proof of rationality?
Resurrection
11-16-2006, 06:37 PM
Get back on topic douche. Make your own thread about Sweden's foreign policy during WWII if you wish.
Friendly Fire
11-16-2006, 06:57 PM
Get back on topic douche. Make your own thread about Sweden's foreign policy during WWII if you wish.
I'm on topic...
Sergei
11-17-2006, 06:19 AM
I believe that Germany will settle this issue with Sweden. They just want a part of the cake.
http://ua.fishki.net/picsu/podb91_01.jpg
sup_tech
11-17-2006, 01:09 PM
Can you imagine how much "boom" Russia can make by blowing up this thing? Definitely a military threat.
rofl
Can you imagine how much "boom" Russia can make by blowing up this thing? Definitely a military threat.
rofl
Smoke it up like a peace pipe (line) ?
Flamming_Python
11-17-2006, 01:40 PM
Can you imagine how much "boom" Russia can make by blowing up this thing? Definitely a military threat.
rofl
Can you imagine how much "boom" Russia could make by unleashing all of its nukes and military on Sweden? Definitely a military threat.
Military threats exist with everything, so best not to get too agitated about it :)
BigBaribal
11-18-2006, 12:55 PM
No surprise here. Sweden's new governement is full of neocon puppets, working for the USA to avoid a logical and positive alliance between Europe and Russia. By the way, the Polish quislings are doing the exact same thing.
I believe that Germany will settle this issue with Sweden. They just want a part of the cake.
http://ua.fishki.net/picsu/podb91_01.jpg
blonde: "Back off alien , i know Kung Fu!"
rofl rofl rofl rofl
Friendly Fire
11-18-2006, 01:29 PM
blonde: "Back off alien , i know Kung Fu!"
rofl rofl rofl rofl
This is the first post I enjoyed from you.
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