Falluja vis-a-vis Grozny/Jenin

[LtHearn]

First of all, yes, I'm new. Hello. :D

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Many of you were calling for a Grozny-like operation in Falluja, following the contractors incident. I think, in some ways, the Marines have indeed gone in there and ripped **** up as you'd hoped.

Eye for an eye:
For years it's seemed this is the only language in war the Arabs understand, thanks to a lack of progress from the old-world tribal blood-feud mentality. If they hit you and you don't strike back, they just hit you again. Only in the face of utter defeat are they willing to back down, tail between their legs.

I think the Marines went into Falluja acting on this principle: "Shoot anyone and everyone armed." Inflicting 600 dead - in retribution for 4 - may seem heinous to some in the world, but I bet it makes perfect sense to the insurgents. "We pissed them off, and they're teaching us a lesson - rightly so." I believe they'll keep fighting, until they feel crushed. Then, they'll accept defeat.

So, my question is this: for those that called for the destruction of the city or the use of overwhelming force, do you think the Marines - given certain restrictions of freedom of action imposed by the world - used this type of force? And do you think it will have an effect on the insurgents - ie they finally realize they are up against a amazingly formidable foe who has finally embraced the resolve to take the fight to them, regardless of what it takes??

[MaDuce]

Amen woot

[Salty Dog]

i don't know, bu the Marines are doing a great job over there.

[American Patriot]

As soon as they retake Fallujah we'll see what the death toll is.

[Midav]

Welcome aboard!

I personally believe the Marines did not use all the force available to them.

Reason being, of course, had they used howitzers, F/A-18's, AV8's and Cobra's to level the city, that would have been counter to the entire mission in Iraq.

Instead of seeing in upwards to 700 dead, it would easily be 10, 15, 20+ times that number, with the greater majority being civilians killed, of course.

From what I understand, urban warfare is probably the harshest type of fighting there is and kudos to the skill of the Marines. For those commanders leading the marines, it must have been the hardest thing to see their men going into that fight and not being able to level the city.

As to the insurgent question, it may or may not have an effect. I honestly don't know.

We see them taking more hostages and conducting more smaller scale guerilla warfare over the past two weeks now.

Perhaps they realized large one on one battles they're going to lose.

Only time will tell.

[joshfox0]

(first time poster long time lurker ^-^)

personally i think its about time they carried this operation out. now many people are like! :bash: you cant kill around 600 civys well, sorry but many of these "civys" are infact insurgents all that needs be done when your an insurgent is throw away your gun and take off your mask and suddenly your just part of the populace again. just my two cents and somthing i've been trying to explain to alot of people who live round here

[ßå$tĮТHÏ¿ð]

I believe the Marines could flatten Falluja before lunch time, but it doesnt nessecarily make it right. Definately having US/Coalition troops in Falluja at the moment would cause alot of fighting between the insurgents and Coalition. It probably would bolster support for Sadr, seeing as they can twist any situation around to make it look like the coalition is evil and against muslims.


sorry but many of these "civys" are infact insurgents all that needs be done when your an insurgent is throw away your gun and take off your mask and suddenly your just part of the populace again.

Kinda reminds me when the war started and most of the Iraqi Battalions "dissapeared" into thin air leaving there uniforms and equipment behind. True once they put down there guns they are civillians again, that what makes the situation so difficult and dangerous for the Coalition. The insurgents could be "anyone" in the street, sending troops into a city looking for anyone with a gun would cause alot of civillian casualties.

Another note, its legal in Iraq for a family to own 1 Klashikov and 200 rounds of ammo. So if a big battle started your insurgents could be absolutely in any building anywere in Falluja.

[Javehn]

Many combat points of Battle on Jenin are still classified , even thought there is a diary of reserve combat soldier , that tells his experience in the battle of Jenin , in operation "Shield Wall " . It's just too big to translate . And i am affraid some of us are out of time .

Russian lesson are very hard to learn , because it was clearly not the best operation that was conducted in the Urban area . Infact , there is nothing to learn . The massive use of Artyllery on Urban area , and the devastation of Grozniy , isn't exactly what US desires to acheave .

And last , the battle of Faluja itself , it's still unknown , the progress of it . I have looked at US FM Manuals of MOUT , Tank platoon FM Manual , MP Manual (did it pretty long time ago) different then ours , at list from what i know . I would say , different to the bad side (don't expect for ellaboration) . It's lack the tactical level somewhat , more then coduct of squads (which are pretty good , i can say ) .

[Red]

I have had previous experience in MOUT and i have to say that so far the Marines in fallujah are doing a fantastic job given the circumsatnce.MOUT is a bitch.Undoubtedly,some of the iraqi KIA's will be civilians but that is how MOUT is,i beleive that the arab media has jumped on this and hyped this but rather turned a blind eye when four human beings were brutally killed.In MOUT, you need to show a lot of restarint and be as precise as possible in your designation and engagement of targets.I beleive that most of the people talking samck about the operations in Fallujah are people who have no experience in urban warfare.But in my opinion,i dont beleive that the siege of fallujah was the right thing to do but my opinion does not matter.

[StukaJr]

This is not the case of eye for an eye - this is a case of systemathic elimination of the unconventional enemy that is making an urban area its base of operations. Not much different from what has been going on in the year - the Coalition troops have been regulary searching for weapon caches and insurgents hiding among civilian population - in Fallujah case, it's simply a concentration of multiple bands temporary united under the orders of few prominent individuals. Just because there are no attacks - does not mean one has nothing to worry about.

Now, these insurgents don't follow any kind of chain of command thus elimination or capture of the foot soldiers is just as important as elimination of the chain of command. These insurgents will continually be hunted down and killed, even when they go back into hiding - of course, with their "leaders" taken out of action - they will go back to individual rag tag posses that Coalition has been dealing rather effeciently with.