Top Ten Combat Rifles - military channel

[asch]

http://military.discovery.com/convergence/topten/rifles/slideshow/slideshow.html

10 - M14
9 - Sturmgewehr 44
8 - Springfield 1903
7 - Steyr AUG 77
6 - Mauser K98K
5 - FN FAL
4 - M1 Garand
3 - Lee Enfield SMLE
2 - M 16
And a winner is - AK 47.


p.s. sorry if a repost.

[KillerBD]

Thanks for the info. AKs are great weapons, they've been around for a long time, and will stick around for a long time to come.

[ShakesFIST]

I always find lists like that questionable...

[KillerBD]

I read the original article about the AK-47 and it states that it is "built off of the basic design of the Sturmgewehr". But I'm pretty sure that the Sturmgewehr has an open bolt operated system unlike the AK's closed bolt, as far as similarites are concerned the only things that are similar between the two is the shape.

[deagle]

i like that episode, and hope they branch out to more "top tens.." ... pistols would be cool !

If there's a torrrent out there, ppppplease let me know ! been searchin every other day at torrentspy for it, but no luck !

[goat89]

FN FAL eh? One hell of a tough b*stard. The Canucks still have some of them in their armoury I believe.

[Hutz]

These top ten shows don't make any sense since there's no basis for their rankings. Each one was ranked for a different reason. Like the tank show where the Leo 2 got top, and (correct me if I'm wrong) has never seen combat.

[TacoDelRio]

These top ten shows don't make any sense since there's no basis for their rankings. Each one was ranked for a different reason. Like the tank show where the Leo 2 got top, and (correct me if I'm wrong) has never seen combat.

Yeah, they have a tendancy to be quite "ghey". That crap always pisses me off. Whatever, it's TV.

[asch]

i beleive they have some system. afaik, every model scores by fire accuracy, lethal results infliction, ergonomics, reliability and other parameters like prevalency in armed forces all over the world.
*damn my engrish*

[Vandervahn]

I read the original article about the AK-47 and it states that it is "built off of the basic design of the Sturmgewehr" [...], as far as similarites are concerned the only things that are similar between the two is the shape.

Well, and the shape and layout IS an integral part of the "basic design", don´t you think?



These top ten shows don't make any sense [...] Like the tank show where the Leo 2 got top, and (correct me if I'm wrong) has never seen combat.

A reference to "Combat experience", although quite fashionable on internet boards, is not a real argument and is irrelevant in such a competition.

[Anthony91]

http://military.discovery.com/convergence/topten/rifles/slideshow/slideshow.html

10 - M14
9 - Sturmgewehr 44
8 - Springfield 1903
7 - Steyr AUG 77
6 - Mauser K98K
5 - FN FAL
4 - M1 Garand
3 - Lee Enfield SMLE
2 - M 16
And a winner is - AK 47.

Switch M16 and AK47 around. And M1 Garand and the SMLE around. And theres one list that is fantastic. :)

[red dragon]

One of the interviewees on that show said he saw Afghans clean their AK47's by putting motor oil on their shoelaces and pulling them through the internals.

[Combatbookworm]

They made reference to a lot of different rifles that did not make the top ten. They had a pretty good ranking system, combat effectiveness, service length, accuracy, and some other relevant stuff. It was well justified, and they basically said because of the M16's early failures disqualified it from #1.

[asch]

Switch M16 and AK47 around. And M1 Garand and the SMLE around. And theres one list that is fantastic. :)
everybody has an asshole.
err, i mean "opinion".
p-)

[Anthony91]

everybody has an asshole.
err, i mean "opinion".
p-)

You're a funny person. smartass

[GazB]

Like the tank show where the Leo 2 got top, and (correct me if I'm wrong) has never seen combat.

Even worse, the Sheridan made it to the list and it made it to combat and was utter crap. It was supposed to be a missile tank but the recoil of the gun ruined the electronics so it never worked as advertised in service. They might as well have just put a low recoil large calibre short range gun with a heavy projectile on an M-113 chassis... it would have been much cheaper and probably better armoured.


"built off of the basic design of the Sturmgewehr".

Yeah that mistake has been purpetuated for quite some time. The reality is that that internally the mechanisms are completely different. Personally I think it is the curved mag that makes people think they are the same. Of course they both have curved mags because the rounds they fire don't have cylindrical cases. Their cases get narrower at the bullet end and fatter at the primer end. If you stack them then the stack forms a natural curve. Put that in a straight mag and you will have jams.

[Dragoongfa]

The Ak 47 and its family (AK 74,AKM and all the copies) number more than 50 million pieces (in rough numbers) while the M16 family number around 11 million pieces.

The AK doesn't need maintance as often as the M16 (some argue if it needs any maintance at all) there are plenty of examples of it being able to fuction after extreme enviromental and human punishment were most rifles would simply fall apart.The M16 in my opinion doesn't even deserve the 5th place, although it is more accurate than the AK it still has less penetration capabilities and it is still an nightmare of maintance (American soldiers in iraq have to clean their M16s 3 times a day from the sand).

The Stg44 should be shifted with the Kar 98 only because the german sholdiers who used both of them valued the Stg44 more.Besides the Stg44 is an assault rifle (The very first assault rifle) while the Kar 98 is a bolt action rifle.The Kar 98 has greater "killing" characteristics (far greater range and superd penetration and stopping power) but the bolt action is what made it obselete even before WWII (To the M1 and even the german semiautomatic G43).Hitler thought differently and favoured the traditional Kar 98 over an other rifle at the time so cabinet had to hide the Stg 44 development project by making it look like a new MP Project (MP 44, the term MP stands for SMG in english).It was after the first trials in the eastern front that the Stg proved its value ( praised by every unit that had it, while even generals begged hitler for more MP 44s).Its mass production started in 1944, too late to make any difference.The comparison of any similarity of the AK 47 and the Stg 44 is the least bit ludicrous, the two weapons internal fuctions are very different, the similar external desing is not considered copying of any sort in fact the AK 47 has many similarities with the M1 garand than anything else in the WWII era (Don't forget that millions of M1 were sent as aid to the USSR by the US).

[Violet Fashion by Mindy]

I would of thought the Enfield would of scored higher. It had been in mainstream use from the 1880's right through to the 1960's.

[OldRecon]

Why the CETME / H&K G-3 family of weapons are not on that list is somewhat beyond me however. Allmost as many around as the FN-FAL & a solid, reliable weapons, with a good punch that's relatively easy to teach with regards to assembly/disassembly (2nd only to the Kalashnikov in that respect IMO).

As for the M-16/Armalite family of weapons, if not for the numbers produced, as a consequence of being standard rifle for the 2nd to 3rd largest armed force in the world and some of its allies, it wouldn't make it on the list as far as me is concerned.
In connection with the present rifle selection process in the Norwegian armed forces, one of the testers mannaged to laud the M-4 for its ease of use :roll:. Makes me wonder how much Colt bribed him with to make him say that :lol:. Armalites have been & allways will be flimsy crap (though admittedly pretty lethal crap "when" they work).

[Bombtrack]

A reference to "Combat experience", although quite fashionable on internet boards, is not a real argument and is irrelevant in such a competition.

Combat experience is irrelevant to a competition of combat rifles? Are you kidding me?

[Hutz]

A reference to "Combat experience", although quite fashionable on internet boards, is not a real argument and is irrelevant in such a competition.

Irrelevant? Like Bombtrack said, it's about COMBAT rifles. Also, if you watched any of those shows, you'd notice that certain tanks (just like the rifle show) were graded because of their combat record or their effect on a particular campaign (T-34 and Sherman). You should maybe look in the mirror before you hint at someone being a keyboard commando.

[Hydro]

Personally I think the G3 should be in there in place of the AUG or M14.

The G3, quite apart from being an excellent and widely used rifle in its own right, formed the basis for an ENTIRE family of reliable weapons that are used worldwide and has been since the 1960's.

I agree with Min about the Lee Enfield. Used for 100 years, from the original Long Lee Enfield of the 1880's, to the L42 sniper rifle phased out in the mid-1980's.

[LthrnckZero]

Why the CETME / H&K G-3 family of weapons are not on that list is somewhat beyond me however. Allmost as many around as the FN-FAL & a solid, reliable weapons, with a good punch that's relatively easy to teach with regards to assembly/disassembly (2nd only to the Kalashnikov in that respect IMO).

As for the M-16/Armalite family of weapons, if not for the numbers produced, as a consequence of being standard rifle for the 2nd to 3rd largest armed force in the world and some of its allies, it wouldn't make it on the list as far as me is concerned.
In connection with the present rifle selection process in the Norwegian armed forces, one of the testers mannaged to laud the M-4 for its ease of use :roll:. Makes me wonder how much Colt bribed him with to make him say that :lol:. Armalites have been & allways will be flimsy crap (though admittedly pretty lethal crap "when" they work).

Have you ever even held an M-16 style of weapon? Fired one maybe? Had to maintain it for more than a few hours? You're buying into every stereotype that has ever been put out there about the weapon.

[kosse]

I'm no expert but I wonder why Mosin-Nagant isn't on the list. Isn't it the most numerous rifle ever built after AK? And a reasonably good too propably with more wars behind it than any other on the list.

[lt tahoe]

i beleive they have some system. afaik, every model scores by fire accuracy, lethal results infliction, ergonomics, reliability and other parameters like prevalency in armed forces all over the world.
*damn my engrish*

Bah, I don't agree with subjective rankings either. If you rank the AK-47 as #1 and you are actually are going by criteria like those listed--accuracy? Ergonomics? Right.

And being prevalent--just because the Soviets and their "satellites" made millions and handed them out around the world, that improves ranking on this list? Whoever makes the most guns wins?

They are very cheap to make, and because they are already so widespread, cheap to feed and maintain. That has nothing to do with combat effectiveness.

[Hutz]

Bah, I don't agree with subjective rankings either. If you rank the AK-47 as #1 and you are actually are going by criteria like those listed--accuracy? Ergonomics? Right.

And being prevalent--just because the Soviets and their "satellites" made millions and handed them out around the world, that improves ranking on this list? Whoever makes the most guns wins?

They are very cheap to make, and because they are already so widespread, cheap to feed and maintain. That has nothing to do with combat effectiveness.

And that was my point, these shows are simply entertainment. There's no actual basis for their ranking. For some it's because of some revolutionary design, others it's their combat records, and then there's some for having 'won' a war. It'd make more sense if they had a standard ranking system. FYI, the top ten fighters and tanks of all times were even worse.

[takavar]

i am suprised no G-3 in there, pretty common in the hands of many armies and rebels, and good reliability and power

[RomanS]

people are pissed because AK won lol

thats awesome

[Roaming East]

i second the replacement of the M14 with the G3, it isnt that widely proliferated and the One army the M14 DID serve with didnt keep mainstream for that long.

[Ruledbyjames]

I've fired the Aug with the Irish Army and I'm not too big a fan. I'm a reservist so we usually get the hand me downs but I wouldnt rate it number seven. Then again I have fired 7 of the other rifles either.

Just my .02 cents.

[Sten3]

nice find, but i think this ranking is´nt reliable...
1st place for the AK is ok, but the rest... how could you copare a M1 with an M16...

[8thidpathfinderpower]

Have you ever even held an M-16 style of weapon? Fired one maybe? Had to maintain it for more than a few hours? You're buying into every stereotype that has ever been put out there about the weapon.

The M16 is alot more rugged than you think. The A2 version solved most of those problems associaited with the A1 model. And the newer family of ammo is supposed to penatrate russian body armor. I liked the accuracy,the ease of maintenance(field stripping was a breeze...altho even it was gi proof.) And,it was light enough not to make you tired after carrying it all day.(have you ever carried a M60,or a SAW,or the M14? Now those are HEAVY weapons.) I actually miss the M16. Fun weapon.:hug:

[LthrnckZero]

The M16 is alot more rugged than you think. The A2 version solved most of those problems associaited with the A1 model. And the newer family of ammo is supposed to penatrate russian body armor. I liked the accuracy,the ease of maintenance(field stripping was a breeze...altho even it was gi proof.) And,it was light enough not to make you tired after carrying it all day.(have you ever carried a M60,or a SAW,or the M14? Now those are HEAVY weapons.) I actually miss the M16. Fun weapon.:hug:

My point exactly. That guy(old recon) has no idea what he is talking about. Flimsy piece of crap? Definitely not. "When" it works? Yeah, somebody has been watching too many movies.

[Hutz]

My point exactly. That guy(old recon) has no idea what he is talking about. Flimsy piece of crap? Definitely not. "When" it works? Yeah, somebody has been watching too many movies.

Probably REMF that couldn't get his rifle to fire because it wasn't cleaned or rusted up.:)

[CG51]

http://military.discovery.com/convergence/topten/rifles/slideshow/slideshow.html

10 - M14
9 - Sturmgewehr 44
8 - Springfield 1903
7 - Steyr AUG 77
6 - Mauser K98K
5 - FN FAL
4 - M1 Garand
3 - Lee Enfield SMLE
2 - M 16
And a winner is - AK 47.


p.s. sorry if a repost.


Bah! The Garand should be number 1!

[Smok]

M-16 is better than K98? Don't be funny. M16 is GOOD weapon but it is not the best or even very good.
INHO the only one reason that M16 is at second place in that comparision is, that M16 is made in the USA.

[Hydro]

Think about it. What is the number one choice of predominantly (but not limited to) Western Special Forces? What weapon rivals the AK47 for media exposure? The M16, and its derivatives.

Where did the idea that the M16 was a bad weapon come from? Vietnam? 40 years ago, and with initial issues of weapons with dodgy ammunition. It is light, accurate, effective and reliable. Its only real shortfall is the operating system, which isn't inherently unreliable, just dirty. Nothing rivals it for ergonomics and control layout whatsoever.

The SAS loved it, and they were one of the very first users of it (1964).

It is definitely one of the 20thC's firearm success stories.

[Hutz]

Think about it. What is the number one choice of predominantly (but not limited to) Western Special Forces? What weapon rivals the AK47 for media exposure? The M16, and its derivatives.

Where did the idea that the M16 was a bad weapon come from? Vietnam? 40 years ago, and with initial issues of weapons with dodgy ammunition. It is light, accurate, effective and reliable. Its only real shortfall is the operating system, which isn't inherently unreliable, just dirty. Nothing rivals it for ergonomics and control layout whatsoever.

The SAS loved it, and they were one of the very first users of it (1964).

It is definitely one of the 20thC's firearm success stories.

Didn't the SAS recently pick the C7 as their new weapon?

[Hydro]

The C7 was used by UKSF since the 1980's IIRC. M16A2's, M653 carbines, M16A1's, AR-15's have floated around their armouries at one stage or another. What is usually seen now is the L119A1, which is a C8SFW carbine.

Just look at the gamut of countries that have used the M16. The Dutch, Danes, French, UK, Australia, US, Canada, innumerable Latin and South American countries, The Phillipines etc ad naseum practically.

If it was that much of a ****heap, then it wouldn't be so popular.

[AK74]

people are pissed because AK won lol

thats awesome

alright!!!

But the AUG, the only Bullpup inside the list musta say something bout it.

[California Joe]

Another **** measuring contest. Jesus. So what is the concensus?

M-16 series & derivatives preferred by western pros?
AK series preferred by eastern block pros and millions of retards that spray and pray?
Garand, innovative for it's time and a serious combat rifle.
Enfield, a true bolt action battle rifle....

This sh*t never ends.

Carrion.

[Hydro]

alright!!!

But the AUG, the only Bullpup inside the list musta say something bout it.


IMO the AUG and the M14 shouldn't be on there, as neither really had that much of an impact on the 20thC firearms world. The M14 was basically just a Garand (which rightfully takes its place on the list) in 7.62 and a box magazine. It wasn't really adopted by anyone outside the US, and lasted for about 7 years before it was replaced by the M16. It's only fairly recently made a comeback The AUG certainly wasn't the first bullpup assault rifle (EM-1/2 in the late 1940's, and the XL70/73 SA80 prototypes were developed at around the same time). It wasn't seriously adopted by many countries at the time of its introduction, and still has comparatively few worldwide users (Australia, NZ, Austria and Ireland off the top of my head).

[guitarplayer17]

The springfield shouldn't be on the list as its own seperate gun because it was basically a mauser copy, slightly modified. The Lee-Enfield is not a better gun than the M-16 and the argument that it's only number 2 because its a US gun is laughable. The M-16 was an innovative gun and once the early problems were fixed, a capable and excellent combat weapon.

[Hydro]

The springfield shouldn't be on the list as its own seperate gun because it was basically a mauser copy, slightly modified. The Lee-Enfield is not a better gun than the M-16 .


It's not a question of "a better gun". The Lee Enfield stayed in service in one form or another for nearly 100 years. It is widely regarded as one of the finest actions available for a true bolt action rifle built for combat. It had twice the magazine capacity of any of its contemporaries, was used by the tens of millions, and has an enviable combat record.

[AK74]

IMO the AUG and the M14 shouldn't be on there, as neither really had that much of an impact on the 20thC firearms world. The M14 was basically just a Garand (which rightfully takes its place on the list) in 7.62 and a box magazine. It wasn't really adopted by anyone outside the US, and lasted for about 7 years before it was replaced by the M16. It's only fairly recently made a comeback The AUG certainly wasn't the first bullpup assault rifle (EM-1/2 in the late 1940's, and the XL70/73 SA80 prototypes were developed at around the same time). It wasn't seriously adopted by many countries at the time of its introduction, and still has comparatively few worldwide users (Australia, NZ, Austria and Ireland off the top of my head).

nice to know you do pack stuff in your grey matter.

M14? who sez? Taiwan packed quite a lot as their standard issue rifle till the introduction of the T65K2 which addressed all the gas tube problems that the early and current M16's still have (so much for 416 when Taiwan did it first.Just not much publicity and marketing.)

The AUG is the first Successful modern Bullpup rifle, seeing its fair share of combat , being able to field strip in less than 15 seconds, and doing a barrel change that mostly only MG's have the ablility have to without rezeroing.
you should ask the guys who pack the Austrian versions as the Aussie versions give the AUG a bad name on reliability.

as for widespread, how come i dont see the FAMAS,SAR-21 or F2000 being in "widespread" use? The AUG have a comparatively low userbase compared to the AK cuz its a Quality Assault rifle (some AK do have quality, esp russian ones but not all) .

just my 2c.

[isaac]

A reference to "Combat experience", although quite fashionable on internet boards, is not a real argument and is irrelevant in such a competition.

Combat experience is the ONLY thing relevant to such competition.

In any case as said before there is no real established criteria for these rating.

[Hydro]

nice to know you do pack stuff in your grey matter.

M14? who sez? Taiwan packed quite a lot as their standard issue rifle till the introduction of the T65K2 which addressed all the gas tube problems that the early and current M16's still have (so much for 416 when Taiwan did it first.Just not much publicity and marketing.)

The AUG is the first Successful modern Bullpup rifle, seeing its fair share of combat , being able to field strip in less than 15 seconds, and doing a barrel change that mostly only MG's have the ablility have to without rezeroing.
you should ask the guys who pack the Austrian versions as the Aussie versions give the AUG a bad name on reliability.

as for widespread, how come i dont see the FAMAS,SAR-21 or F2000 being in "widespread" use? The AUG have a comparatively low userbase compared to the AK cuz its a Quality Assault rifle (some AK do have quality, esp russian ones but not all) .

just my 2c.



Ask an Aussie or Kiwi about the Austeyr's reliability problems. I've only heard of the trigger mechanism not liking dust and grit, something the Austrian version suffers from also. You don't see the FAMAS, SAR21, F2000, L85 in widespread use, but you also don't see them on that list. The G3 was also a "quality assault rifle", and that was used in large numbers around the world - it didn't make the list. I'm not badmouthing the AUG, but there's not a lot about it to justify putting it on a top 10 combat rifle list. There's not a lot to justify putting it alongside the Grandfathers of combat, like the Enfield, K98, Garand et al.


The M14 wasn't in mainstream US service for very long. It was hardly exported (Taiwan, and the Phillipines got some, Latvia were given M14's in the 1990's), and really only lived on in the M21 sniper rifle incarnation. It was pretty much a magazine fed Garand chambered in 7.62 NATO, so if we're including that, why not the BM59? Another 7.62mm Garand that was hardly exported. I have no doubt it is a fine and reliable weapon with plenty of punch, but again worthy of a self proclaimed top 10 combat rifles? It is enjoying a resurgence recently due to the need for DMR's, but this is more hinting at the M21 heritage.


I'm rambling, and like the list, this is only a personal opinion of someone (myself). Feel free to debate.

[AK74]

Ask an Aussie or Kiwi about the Austeyr's reliability problems. I've only heard of the trigger mechanism not liking dust and grit, something the Austrian version suffers from also. You don't see the FAMAS, SAR21, F2000, L85 in widespread use, but you also don't see them on that list. The G3 was also a "quality assault rifle", and that was used in large numbers around the world - it didn't make the list. I'm not badmouthing the AUG, but there's not a lot about it to justify putting it on a top 10 combat rifle list.


The M14 wasn't in mainstream US service for very long. It was hardly exported (Taiwan, and the Phillipines got some, Latvia were given M14's in the 1990's), and really only lived on in the M21 sniper rifle incarnation. It was pretty much a magazine fed Garand chambered in 7.62 NATO, so if we're including that, why not the BM59? Another 7.62mm Garand that was hardly exported. I have no doubt it is a fine and reliable weapon with plenty of punch, but again worthy of a self proclaimed top 10 combat rifles? It is enjoying a resurgence recently due to the need for DMR's, but this is more hinting at the M21 heritage.


I'm rambling, and like the list, this is only a personal opinion of someone (myself). Feel free to debate.

You got a point but the G3 is just a CETME based german rifle.

Anyway i do agree that when even the idiots making the show doesnt know what the definition of ASSAULT RIFLE mean , the list is dog turd. the SKS isnt an assault rifle cuz its semi auto, putting bolt action into the bag just dont cut it.

About the AUG, i would love to use one if i do go into a warzone but an ak is fine too provided its russian stuff.

[Createdeemcee]

Bah! The Garand should be number 1!


M1 and M14 should switch places!

[Hydro]

But the G3 was the success. It was the G3 that was "adopted everywhere the FAL missed" outside of the Warsaw Pact. It was the G3 that spawned everything from compact machine pistols to belt fed sustained fire machine guns on its action.

The list talks about a broader spectrum, combat rifles, not just assault rifles. It's not reliant on what is a "better" weapon, but criteria like how widespread was the weapon? Who used it? How did it perform in its time and theatre? Did it bring anything new and special to the firearms game?

[speckfire]

Jebus .. I own the 1st 6 rifles and the 10th one :D

[Clearday-TRForce]

ak47
m1 garand
m1a1 carbine
sten
lee enfield
springfield
gerase
thompson
bar
mp40 - mp44
kar98k
g43
mossinnagant
svt40





regards,
CDTRF

[Bryson C]

ak47
m1 garand
m1a1 carbine
sten
lee enfield
springfield
gerase
thompson
bar
mp40 - mp44
kar98k
g43
mossinnagant
svt40
regards,
CDTRF

So the Thompson SMG, Sten Gun, "gerase" (Grease gun?), and M.P. 40. Are Rifles now?

[Hydro]

With the exception of the AK, that just looks like a list of WW2 weapons.

[sp2c]

Combat experience is the ONLY thing relevant to such competition.

In any case as said before there is no real established criteria for these rating.


exactly what aspect of combat experience for a rifle can not be simulated?
does the rifle somehow know it is not firing at people?

I'd agree if we were talking combat units with real people in them because of the psychological issues but with rifles?

anyways ... I say FAL for teh win!11!!!

[sp2c]

The C7 was used by UKSF since the 1980's IIRC. M16A2's, M653 carbines, M16A1's, AR-15's have floated around their armouries at one stage or another. What is usually seen now is the L119A1, which is a C8SFW carbine.

Just look at the gamut of countries that have used the M16. The Dutch, Danes, French, UK, Australia, US, Canada, innumerable Latin and South American countries, The Phillipines etc ad naseum practically.

If it was that much of a ****heap, then it wouldn't be so popular.

the Dutch never used the M16 afaik

[Hydro]

C7, same difference.

[sp2c]

yeah and Stryker is actually MOWAG Piranha III ... not really

[Hydro]

What are the major differences that make the C7 a unique rifle from the M16 then? The differences lie in manufacturing techniques and quality of materials used.


A German G1 and IMBEL MD1 are both still FAL's.

[sp2c]

I dunno, I just press start and bullets come out :D

my instructor told me it is not the same deal, I've learned to take his word for all kinds of stuff

[California Joe]

Put all of you in a hole, have badguys charge you....pick the goddamned rifle you want to be holding. Alright?

[sp2c]

I'd run away screaming like a little girl

[Hydro]

L85A2, because it's what I'm trained on.




I do love a good gun thread.

[sp2c]

suppose I'd pick the first one I could get my hands on ... but seriously I'd probably run away screaming like a little girl

[asch]

hm.
AKM, from Izhmash, please.

[isaac]

exactly what aspect of combat experience for a rifle can not be simulated?
does the rifle somehow know it is not firing at people?

I'd agree if we were talking combat units with real people in them because of the psychological issues but with rifles?

anyways ... I say FAL for teh win!11!!!


There have been alot of wonder weapons that have been tested in "Combat" situations but nothing holds up to the day to day wear and tear of combat. Nothing about the things experienced in combat are simulated, some pretty odd things happen... and until a weapon is battle tested and thrown around in the dirt for months and god knows what else, it isn't ****.

Then you have the fact that many simulations simply aren't as rough as they should be, and so a weapons get fielded that are inadequate. It's best to wait for the grunts to tell you what they think before you judge a weapon.

Combat will make it or break it.

[sp2c]

I dunno I'm pretty confident about my gear but I suppose we'll just have to wait and see

[isaac]

If you're the one doing the testing and all that, and it meets your standards thats straight. I'm talking going by what the manufacturers say etc. when compiling a top ten list.

However there are no firearms on that list that have not been combat tested, my combat testing arguement was about the tank that came in 2nd on a top ten list and had not yet seen combat (mentioned earlier, not sure what page). The arguement carries over to any military gear though.

[sp2c]

yeah Leopard ... same argument
you train as you fight, our mbts go all over the world for excercises, nothing big is going to change once it sees actual combat

at least nothing that hasn't been omitted due to monetary reasons like the new engine or overhead weapon stations ... but then we go back to the crews driving the leopards and start bitching about it in the media :)

[gaijinsamurai]

Not a bad list. I'd consider replacing the Steyr AUG with the HK G3 though.

[LaoSexMachine]

I knows it's not a rifle but the 1911 should of have an honorable mention. Pfffttt.

[OldRecon]

Have you ever even held an M-16 style of weapon? Fired one maybe? Had to maintain it for more than a few hours? You're buying into every stereotype that has ever been put out there about the weapon.

Well, sure I'm by far not the most experienced guy as regards military record on this forum. But I have in the least an aproximate 2 years of "active" service in the Norwegian armed forces (2 years as a home guard youth, 1 year conscript service, 6 months with Norbatt/UNIFIL, and a few reservist callups on the side).
As for my service in Leb, before the locals with connections to DFF/SLA and GSS entered the village where I was stationed, as part of UNIFIL about 16 years ago, they had to leave their guns for storage at our VCP at the entrance to the village (but of course we reckoned they had an extra gun hidden at home just in case ;), and we let them have it that way as long as they kept that extra gun in the closet).
There was a designated locker on the outside of the blockhouse wall on the VCP (the one designated 4-2B in the UNIFIL register of positions if it would matter to you), for storage of all these militia guns.
Most of the stuff kept there were Kalashnikovs, but also on a quite regular basis, we had Tokarev and Browning HP 9 mm pistols, MAT-49 9 mm sub-machineguns and CAR 15's. The CAR 15's being employed by personel belonging to GSS/SLA security.
To while away time during the dog watch on the VCP from 0000 to 0600 hours, we sometimes used to "tamper a bit" with the militia guns in the storage. Mostly taking the guns apart to have a look at the internals, and then putting them back together again. Sometimes we would even clean the guns for those b*stards in the process. :lol:
If we asked the owner of the gun beforehand (and provided we cleaned the weapon afterwards), we could sometimes even test shoot these guns.
I spent allmost 2 months I think it was (if not 3?) on 4-2B, so I had ample time to tamper with the various guns in the storage on dog watches.
So don't tell me that a CAR-15 isn't light, flimsy, not very suitable for use as a club if you want to bash someone on the head with it, and that it doesn't contain a lot of tiny weak springs (in common with a lot of other 5.56 calibre assault rifles it seems :roll:). Besides, without previous instruction, figuring out how to take an Armalite apart without damaging it hardly comes as natural (and logical) as with the Kalashnikovs IMO.

As for the Kalashnikovs, except for its cumbersome safety with its "safe" - "auto" - "semi auto" selection cycle, I was positively surprised of its accuracy up to 200-300 meters, with regards to the lower muzzle velocity of the 7.62 calibre Kalashnikovs, as compared to NATO 7.62 calibre guns like the G-3.
And the Kalashnikovs are the benchmark of assault rifles, as regards easy to learn assembly disassembly IMO.
I remember quite well my first experience with the Kalashnikov during my conscript service at home in Norway. We had a few of those in my conscript service unit for demonstration purposes. And at a pause during a lecture in equipment recognition, I sneaked up to the table where the guns were laying and took the gun apart and put it back together again without any previous instruction or word of advice. In fact I found the Kalashnikov easier to assemble disassemble than the Mauser Kar 98 of my Home guard youth days.

[Roaming East]

Flimsy? We beat the ice off our equipment with M16's....

[fuzzyramirez]

What about my Yugo. SKS? I love that rifle.

[KillerBD]

AK is my pick, its a great weapon.

[CG51]

General George S. Patton called the M1-Garand:
"The greatest battle implement ever devised".

[mudbunny]

It's hard to argue with the Kalishnikov's durability.

[AZRON]

I have fired most of the listed weapons and all are pretty good.

The AUG was very impressive when first introduced and I surely was impressed.

The M-16 was better than I had previously thought and a decent weapon.

One thing about some of the older models is they knocked the crap out of your shoulder and having a black and blue shoulder was extremely common. More so with bolt actions over semis. The M-14 doesn't beat you up as badly as the M-1 does.

One rifle not mentioned but an excellent one is the SKS of Russian mfg. a very good semi-auto.

[budgie]

i beleive they have some system. afaik, every model scores by fire accuracy, lethal results infliction, ergonomics, reliability and other parameters like prevalency in armed forces all over the world.
*damn my engrish*

Nahh, I think they used hard sales data for some, and pulled the rest out of their own..ahem..opinions. My own take:

10 - M14
A good rifle but mostly just a product-improved M1. Surely some turn-of-century bolt action that saw a long service and worldwide production like the Mosin-Nagant could fill this inauspicious slot.

9 - Sturmgewehr 44
Certainly a revolution in the making. Finally an army recognizes the need for a standard-issue assault rifle.

8 - Springfield 1903
Well used as a sniper weapon and by the GIs in WWI but how much use did it get outside the US forces?

7 - Steyr AUG 77
Revolutionary design that has transferred to many other weapons (SR21, FN 2000, P90, SA80 etc.) But only a moderate success story on its own.

6 - Mauser K98K
Kept the Jerries in business for two wars I guess.

5 - FN FAL
Well-deserved as this weapon was sold and reproduced in dozens of countries. Makes me wonder where the G3 is on this chart as it has achieved similar currency.

4 - M1 Garand
The first standard-issue semi-auto. IMO it (when used in conjuction with the BAR and Thompson) allowed the US to refine small-unit fire and manouver tactics to modern levels. Patton rightly called it 'the greatest' but then he didn't know what Mike Kalashnikov was cooking up.

3 - Lee Enfield SMLE
Well it certainly has had a long life. Used by the British since the Boer war I think; you still see some in the hands of Indian and Bangladeshi police forces.

2 - M 16
This and its variants has also achieved widespread use. More than that however it ushered in the switch to the even more widespread 5.56 round that has set the benchmark for price/weight/range/accuracy/stopping power that so many forces seek for their troops.

And a winner is - AK 47
Well it may not be as finely engineered as say, the G36 (or even many of the weapons above) but no weapon has been used as widely, can be copied as easily and used and maintained by professional armies, militias, peasant guerrillas alike. For the price and reliability, there is no finer choice and I predict this weapon will continue to be in (dare I say effective) service in many backwater states, terrorist and freedom-fighter bands and second-line militias well into the next half of this century.

[budgie]

Combat experience is the ONLY thing relevant to such competition.

In any case as said before there is no real established criteria for these rating.

I think it's safe to say at some point all these weapons saw enough combat experience.

[Hydro]

Well, the Springfield is pretty much a Mauser knock off, there's not a fat lot of point having the Mauser 98 and the '03 in there. The Mauser spawned it, and dozens of other copies based on its action, so IMO the Mauser stays, the Springfield goes.

[Niels]

Top ten what? Is this so called list based on reliability, accuracy, how many produced, etc?


Meaningless TV ****e to entertain the unknowing public, if you ask me.

[OldRecon]

Flimsy? We beat the ice off our equipment with M16's....

The CAR 15 I had most experience with was made of what appeared to be various light alloy castings of rather high quality, with surprisingly thick receiver walls despite the overall light weight of the weapon.
Wouldn surprise me if the receiver was the structuraly strongest part of the weapon.
Yet my impressions still was that if someone fell stumbling on top of the gun, the weight of a falling man would be enough to bend the gun out of shape.
The thin gas tube in particular looked somewhat susceptible to damage.
There were also a lot of tiny knobs and springs all over the gun.
As an example:
If I remember correctly the gun-body/receiver locking pins on the CAR-15 have a spring loaded retainer/stop knob to ensure that the locking pins are not seprated from the gun body (so as not to loose them) on dis-assembly? This in contrast to the G-3/MP-5 family of weapons where the various gun body locking pins (for buffer endplate, gun trigger group and foregrip) can be removed completely from the gun.
On one of the CAR's I encounter in Leb as described above, the spring of one of these body locking pin retainers/stop knobs was damaged from the outset. And when a colleague of mine had a look at the weapon, being used to AG-3 gun body locking pins, during disassembly, he unfortunately pulled out the body locking pin with the faulty retaining knob spring, with the result that the retaining knob and spring disappeared for good among the shingle on the ground :lol:. Thus rendering the gun unusable.
Needles to say the guy in question was somewhat worried about how the owner of the damaged CAR would take it, when he came to collect the gun before going to his workplace next morning :lol:.
Must say that the owner took it surprisingly well :lol:. He even let us test fire his remaining working CAR (he had 2 from the outset) on a later occasion (at the end of which one dude in the platoon almost took out half his unit mates in what could have been the most idiotic sort of nd incident :lol: ).

P.s. I'm shure the Armalite work out ok as an ice remover, as long as you use the shoulder pad end of the butt as the hammer point.
Still not as suitable for use as an improvised baseball bat /war club as either the Kalashnikov, FN-Fal or G-3 (Or an old wooden stock rifle for that matter) though IMO ;).

[Limeyfellow]

General George S. Patton called the M1-Garand:
"The greatest battle implement ever devised".

He also said that there were no need for tougher tanks than the Sherman since no tanks would ever be fighting any other tanks. Patton said some weird stuff.

[GeraldDuval]

4 - M1 Garand
The first standard-issue semi-auto. IMO it (when used in conjuction with the BAR and Thompson) allowed the US to refine small-unit fire and manouver tactics to modern levels. Patton rightly called it 'the greatest' but then he didn't know what Mike Kalashnikov was cooking up.

Definately not true, and wrong on both tactics and being first. It may hurt most americans to know this, but both were invented by the french...

http://armesfrancaises.free.fr/Soldat%20et%20FSA17-WEB.jpg

http://armesfrancaises.free.fr/FSA%201917-VD-WEB2.JPG

http://armesfrancaises.free.fr/FSA%201917-coupe-dessin-WEB.jpg

http://armesfrancaises.free.fr/FSA%201917%20du%202%B0%20type-culasse%20%E0%20l%27arri%E8re-WEB.jpg

The french army began issuing the Fusil Automatique Modele 1917, in well, 1917. It was the worlds first standard issue semi automatic rifle in military service, beating the garand by damn near 25 years.

plus the fire and manuver tactics were developed by the french army at Verdun. That's why after the battle of verdun, during large scale offensives the french usually (not always...Chemins des dames, but we won't speak of that massacre) advanced further than the british and americans. Look at the somme where their fire and manuver tactics were first used. Even though most english language maps end at the beginning of the french sector (lord knows why) they advanced much MUCH farther than the british, many units seizieng their objectives on the first day...

[ShakesFIST]

I always thought the French standard rifle was a bolt action until the MAS49 came around...

[Saranof]

He also said that there were no need for tougher tanks than the Sherman since no tanks would ever be fighting any other tanks. Patton said some weird stuff.

You took the words out'ta my mouth, bad man

[Sith]

GeraldDuval, True the Fusil Automatique Modele 1917 was issued to French troops in that year; however, it was never issued on an army-wide scale. Despite the French military’s intent to standardize the rifle the war ended before it could happen, and interest faded. As a result the French army entered WWII overwhelmingly armed with bolt-action rifles.

The M-1 is considered the first standard issue semi-auto rifle because it was the first to be issued on a military-wide basis.

Thanks,
Sith

[-DarthMaul-]

What most people dont consider is the AK was really made for Mechanized Infantry, not as much as it is for the normal infantry..(lessons from russian troops advancing soo fast on the field, they dropped accuracy/range for better everything else)

an officer I know that was in iraq last year said he carried around an AK rather than the M16A2.

All depends on opinion really, and depends on the situation to an extent.

[Hollis]

Definately not true, and wrong on both tactics and being first. It may hurt most americans to know this, but both were invented by the french...

The french army began issuing the Fusil Automatique Modele 1917, in well, 1917. It was the worlds first standard issue semi automatic rifle in military service, beating the garand by damn near 25 years.

plus the fire and manuver tactics were developed by the french army at Verdun. That's why after the battle of verdun, during large scale offensives the french usually (not always...Chemins des dames, but we won't speak of that massacre) advanced further than the british and americans. Look at the somme where their fire and manuver tactics were first used. Even though most english language maps end at the beginning of the french sector (lord knows why) they advanced much MUCH farther than the british, many units seizieng their objectives on the first day...

Not to burst your bubble, Tactics is never with out it's predecessor. You might want to read about the USSS, United States Sharps Shooters, during the American CW, tactics employed was not fully understood till WWII.

As afar as semi autos. Standard issue is what every infantryman receives. France was still heavily invested in bolt guns till after WWII, MAS 56?.

Garand became a Standard issue during WWII. It was the firearm every infantryman received. Exception where more special issues. There were other Semi and Full auto, but they were not the standard issue for the other militarys, MP44, Sten, Etc.

Standard issues in the Civil war was a front stuffer, yet some units had lever action, revolving rifles, breech loaders, etc... your claim is like saying the lever action Henry's Rifle was standard issue to the US Army during the Civil War, Just because a Illinois unit had them issued standard to that unit.

[GazB]

The Federov Avtomat could also claim to be the worlds first assault rifle. Many westerners today think Avtomat Kalashnikova Model 1947 means Automatic Kalashnikov rifle model 1947. Avtomat is the name of federovs 1916 assault rifle... much the same as vaccuum cleaners today are often called hoovers or electrolux's after those famous earlier models.

Reduced power ammo (the 6.5 x 50mm Japanese round used generates less power than the 7.62 x 39mm round used in the AK), 25 round curved box mag, front pistol grip, semi and full auto capability. What it lacked was the modern sheet metal fabrication for mass production, but then the first model AK widely produced didn't have that either.
It wasn't realised at the time but the fact that all Soviet assault rifles have Avtomat in their name (ie AK-47, AKM, AS suppressed 9mm assault rifle etc etc) shows the Soviets and Russians recognise the contribution Federov made all those years ago.

[GeraldDuval]

Garand became a Standard issue during WWII. It was the firearm every infantryman received. Exception where more special issues. There were other Semi and Full auto, but they were not the standard issue for the other militarys, MP44, Sten, Etc.

This is partially true. Yes the garand was very common in the US army, but the springfield was also issued in very large numbers. It was not uncommon to find one (not only in the sniper configuration, but also in old ww1 era configuration) in a squad's arsenal. It wasn't until late 44, 45 that the M1 was truely standard issue.

[KillerBD]

^During WWII the standard issue weapon for the U.S. military was the M1 Garand, pretty much all of the baic infantry men in the Army were issued it. But the U.S. Marine Corps wasn't issued the M1 in very large quantities like the Army was, so many Marines were still using the M1903 Springfield. This was due in part to the Marine Corps lower funding so often times you will see soldiers in the Marine Corps during WWII using older, less sophisticated equipment than the Army does.

[big_les]

The CAR 15 I had most experience with was made of what appeared to be various light alloy castings of rather high quality, with surprisingly thick receiver walls despite the overall light weight of the weapon.
Wouldn surprise me if the receiver was the structuraly strongest part of the weapon.

Yep, that's the idea - forged/milled aluminium makes for a strong and light receiver.


Yet my impressions still was that if someone fell stumbling on top of the gun, the weight of a falling man would be enough to bend the gun out of shape.

Your "impression"? Did you ever see this happen? Has such an incident ever been reported? I'd be interested to see evidence if so. The handguards were an early complaint, which is why they were modified (and again subsequently).


The thin gas tube in particular looked somewhat susceptible to damage.

Again, have you seen this happen? Any actual evidence for your claim?


There were also a lot of tiny knobs and springs all over the gun.

And? This might be a problem in some tin-pot banana republic, but in a modern professional, volunteer army, being able to deal with small bits without dropping/losing/eating them clearly isn't a major worry, or these "fiddly" aspects of the weapon would have been redesigned at some stage.


As an example:
If I remember correctly the gun-body/receiver locking pins on the CAR-15 have a spring loaded retainer/stop knob to ensure that the locking pins are not seprated from the gun body (so as not to loose them) on dis-assembly? This in contrast to the G-3/MP-5 family of weapons where the various gun body locking pins (for buffer endplate, gun trigger group and foregrip) can be removed completely from the gun.

So having criticised the fact that there are small knobs and springs (and without specifying which of these constitutes a problem in the field) you then point out that some of these at least are retained in the body of the weapon by design. Somewhat undermining your argument.


On one of the CAR's I encounter in Leb as described above, the spring of one of these body locking pin retainers/stop knobs was damaged from the outset. And when a colleague of mine had a look at the weapon, being used to AG-3 gun body locking pins, during disassembly, he unfortunately pulled out the body locking pin with the faulty retaining knob spring, with the result that the retaining knob and spring disappeared for good among the shingle on the ground :lol:. Thus rendering the gun unusable.
Needles to say the guy in question was somewhat worried about how the owner of the damaged CAR would take it, when he came to collect the gun before going to his workplace next morning :lol:.
Must say that the owner took it surprisingly well :lol:. He even let us test fire his remaining working CAR (he had 2 from the outset) on a later occasion (at the end of which one dude in the platoon almost took out half his unit mates in what could have been the most idiotic sort of nd incident :lol: ).

Was the weapon new? If it was not, this pin could have been damaged at some point. If it was, it should have been returned as faulty. Either way, it's one weapon.


P.s. I'm shure the Armalite work out ok as an ice remover, as long as you use the shoulder pad end of the butt as the hammer point.
Still not as suitable for use as an improvised baseball bat /war club as either the Kalashnikov, FN-Fal or G-3 (Or an old wooden stock rifle for that matter) though IMO ;).

The weapon you're talking about (either CAR-15 or more likely a Colt M635/655 carbine) had either an aluminium or (more likely) composite sliding stock - not the best for either clubbing your enemy or using as an icepick, but would no doubt do in a pinch. But that's a tradeoff for a shorter, handier weapon. The A1 or A2 with full stock would be rather more robust in a hand-hand fighting situation. Not that I understand these are particularly common in modern warfare.

The AR might *feel* like a toy to someone used to steel and wood designs (hence the old "made by Mattel" gags), but it's actually pretty robust and reliable (post A1 at least). Despite the problems in Vietnam with unsuitable powder, lack of chromed chamber, flimsy handgaurds, lack of maintenance etc, when 2100 troops that had served in Vietnam were polled, only 38 expressed a desire to replace their M16A1s. 35 of whom wanted the CAR-15 :D (source "History and Development of the M16 Rifle and its Cartridge by D Hughes).

[Roaming East]

I was trained to use the butt of my weapon to slow/break my descent during a rapid transition to ****e, my 180lb body has caused an M16 variant to break as of yet.

[California Joe]

Not to burst your bubble, Tactics is never with out it's predecessor. You might want to read about the USSS, United States Sharps Shooters, during the American CW, tactics employed was not fully understood till WWII.

As afar as semi autos. Standard issue is what every infantryman receives. France was still heavily invested in bolt guns till after WWII, MAS 56?.

Garand became a Standard issue during WWII. It was the firearm every infantryman received. Exception where more special issues. There were other Semi and Full auto, but they were not the standard issue for the other militarys, MP44, Sten, Etc.

Standard issues in the Civil war was a front stuffer, yet some units had lever action, revolving rifles, breech loaders, etc... your claim is like saying the lever action Henry's Rifle was standard issue to the US Army during the Civil War, Just because a Illinois unit had them issued standard to that unit.

Yeah, what Hollis said. :) Got to love any post that brings up the USSS. For chrissakes, Robert Rogers small unit tactics are still relevant today. Plus the French also invented the Chauchaut. ;)You lose big points for that. I keed, I keed.

[gaijinsamurai]

Also, Wasn't John Garand, the inventor of the M1, Canadian?

[big_les]

Yeah, what Hollis said. :) Got to love any post that brings up the USSS. For chrissakes, Robert Rogers small unit tactics are still relevant today. Plus the French also invented the Chauchaut. ;)You lose big points for that. I keed, I keed.

These tactics? - http://militaryhistory.suite101.com/article.cfm/rogers_rangers_rules_1765

They somewhat pre-date the formation of the USSS but presumably that unit drew on Rogers' teachings.

[Impulse_t0]

the m16 is a great weapon, why? Because my m4a1 has never jammed. :)

[OldRecon]

The gun in question was a CAR-15 similar to that employed by IDF in some numbers at the time (1989-90), not the Vietnam war vintage 5.56 Armalite carabine with its distinct large flash hider / muzzle brake.
My guess is that the weapon was exported Israel some time during the early to mid 1980's and handed over from them to Lebanese members of GSS/SLA-security during the 1980', so it can't have been not much older than 10 years in the least.
As for the dammaged weapon, it wasn't just for the guy to turn it over to the stores to have it repaired/replaced. After the retainer pin/stop knob loss incident I mention above, the owner didn't get the weapon repaired/replaced for the remaining 3 months of my tour in Leb.
As for falling over the gun or jumpin' on it on uneven ground, no I haven't watched it actually happen (but then we didn't try to dammage the weapons kept in our temporary storage by intent, rather then contrary in fact).
As for the Gas tube, for same reason as given above, I did not witness any attempts on bending it by intent or accident, but can't say it looket too difficult. That tube have a total diameter hardly above 5 mm and look rather thin walled (though adequate to handle the gas pressures its subjected to).
It's not that individual part of the weapon, like the receiver didn't look strongly made, it was rather the joining of the various parts like barrel, receiver & but that looked flimsy to me.
As for the many small springs used on the Armalites I encountered, they were allmost all of them of the coil spring type rather than the torsion spring type prefered by H&K on their G-3 and MP-5. I've never experienced or heard of breakages with the torsion type springs on G-3's & MP-5's similar to the stop knob coil spring failure on that CAR I mentioned above.
When you then take into consideration that (as I remember it) f.ex the magazine release catch of that CAR-15 in mention was tensioned by a similar coil spring only slightly larger than the dammaged locking pin stop knob coil type tensioning spring, it IMO isn't hard to understand why I became an Armalite sceptic after the incident I mention above.
Also on this very forum there continue to pop up stories about the need for frequent cleaning (up to 4 times a day according to some) of Armalites used by US forces in the dusty conditions of Iraq. I served in similar dusty conditions in Leb as an apc-infantryman, some days we would look like someone had dumped a sack of brown flour over our heads :lol:, yet I only cleaned my AG-3 once every day, and more for appearance at that than utter neccesity. Some lazy mates of mine in fact only cleaned their AG's every 2nd day or even only once a week, yet appears to have had no problems with malfunctions.
With regards to another reliability factor, I understand it is good practice with all Armalites to empty magazines for ammo at least once a month, if filled for long duration, in order to let the magazine springs re-tension.
Must admit I've never heard of that idea before frequenting MP-net, with regards to the AG-3's we used in Leb. (were we carried full magazines at all times) or during my conscript year (where we though did not carry full magazines at any time :lol:). And most of my mates back then appeared to be equally ignorant about the magazine spring re-tension idea. Yet I've never personaly experienced, witnessed or heard of magazine feeding failures with AG-3 mags.
As far as I can remember I can recall having emptied all mags of my AG / dismantling my mags only twice during my 6 months in Leb. And then only for cleaning and not for mag spring retensioning.
Also during the rifle selection competition of the Norwegian armed forces during the 1960's, the H&K G-3 easily won out both over the AR-10 and AR-15/M-16 on most points, and there must have been some good reasons for it.
Also there must have been some good reasons why our Swedish brothers chose not to obtain Armalites as new standard rifle, when switching from 7.62 to 5.56, even though I suppose the Armalite variant offered was more than competitive in terms of price.
Thus though my repeated "Armalites are crap statements" may (admittedly) be a bit on the hyperbole side, I still do think, with regards to reliability/serviceability, that there are better choices on the market than Armalites.


Yep, that's the idea - forged/milled aluminium makes for a strong and light receiver.



Your "impression"? Did you ever see this happen? Has such an incident ever been reported? I'd be interested to see evidence if so. The handguards were an early complaint, which is why they were modified (and again subsequently).

...

[onefast93z28]

This is partially true. Yes the garand was very common in the US army, but the springfield was also issued in very large numbers. It was not uncommon to find one (not only in the sniper configuration, but also in old ww1 era configuration) in a squad's arsenal. It wasn't until late 44, 45 that the M1 was truely standard issue.

If you look at a 1943-45 US army infantry squad TO&E an M1903A3 was supposed to be in each squad as the designated rifle grenade launcher (due to the ability to switch between grenade blanks and ball ammo quicker than an M1), though it was rare to find a 1903A3 in a squad. The M1 had been the standard issue since 1941-42ish IIRC. I believe one m1903A4 (sniper) was supposed to be issued per rifle company. While many troops may have trained on both M1903A3s and M1s, when they went overseas they got an M1.

In the Pacific, the USMC kept their M1903s for a while until there was enough M1s for them.

In both Europe and the Pacific, you can find pictures of of individuals equipped with m1903s and m1903A3s in late 1944 and early 1945, but these were usually support troops.

[California Joe]

These tactics? - http://militaryhistory.suite101.com/article.cfm/rogers_rangers_rules_1765

They somewhat pre-date the formation of the USSS but presumably that unit drew on Rogers' teachings.

Presumably. That was actually 2 different thoughts I ran together in my response. My handle is the nickname of a sniper from the USSS as Hollis knows. I brought up Rogers Rangers in referrence to his statement that tactics are never without predecessors.....

[Violet Fashion by Mindy]

The British used small units at Waterloo that operated independantly of the battle line.

:)

[California Joe]

I know that. And they had green jacketed riflemen also.

Rogers Rangers pre date them by a few years though and owe a lot to the Natives as far as fighting in the woods and guerilla warfare....

[Violet Fashion by Mindy]

*grabs my cambridge history of warfare book*

The Royalist British in the civil war also used lightly armed and armoured soldiers to harass republican supplie lines.

but wether that counts or not. We are talking muskets of the 16th Century at a time when most armies still considered the only as an auxillery weapon.

[big_les]

*grabs my cambridge history of warfare book*

The Royalist British in the civil war also used lightly armed and armoured soldiers to harass republican supplie lines.

but wether that counts or not. We are talking muskets of the 16th Century at a time when most armies still considered the only as an auxillery weapon.

Yeah, maybe an embryonic attempt at the same thing, but without rifled muskets, it's not really. AFAIK the Experimental Rifle Corps/95th Rifles/Rifle Brigade were very much inspired by foreign prototypes, probably Roger's mob as well. But these guys - http://www.militaryheritage.com/60thregt.htm - were both pre-Rogers AND British...

[isaac]

1. Don't forget nothing.
2. Have your musket clean as a whistle, hatchet scoured, sixty rounds powder and ball, and be ready to march at a minute's warning.
3. When you're on the march, act the way you would if you was sneaking up on a deer. See the enemy first.
4. Tell the truth about what you see and what you do. There is an army depending on us for correct information. You can lie all you please when you tell other folks about the Rangers, but don't never lie to a Ranger or officer.
5. Don't never take a chance you don't have to.
6. When we're on the march we march single file, far enough apart so one shot can't go through two men.
7. If we strike swamps, or soft ground, we spread out abreast, so it's hard to track us.
8. When we march, we keep moving till dark, so as to give the enemy the least possible chance at us.
9. When we camp, half the party stays awake while the other half sleeps.
10. If we take prisoners, we keep 'em separate till we have had time to examine them, so they can't cook up a story between 'em.
11. Don't ever march home the same way. Take a different route so you won't be ambushed.
12. No matter whether we travel in big parties or little ones, each party has to keep a scout twenty yards ahead, twenty yards on each flank and twenty yards in the rear, so the main body can't be surprised and wiped out.
13. Every night you'll be told where to meet if surrounded by a superior force.
14. Don't sit down to eat without posting sentries.
15. Don't sleep beyond dawn. Dawn's when the French and indians attack.
16. Don't cross a river by a regular ford.
17. If somebody's trailing you, make a circle, come back onto your own tracks, and ambush the folks that aim to ambush you.
18. Don't stand up when the enemy's coming against you. Kneel down, lie down, hide behind a tree.
19. Let the enemy come till he's almost close enough to touch. Then let him have it and jump out and finish him with your hatchet.

[Hutz]

Ah, Rangers rules. Haven't seen those in a while. The Queen's York Rangers are another unit that draws it's lineage from Rogers Rangers.
http://qyrang.org/

[ClydeFrog]

Very stupid list. No Mosin-Nagant or G3 but M14? Hah. Must be the rifle with the shortest lifetime ever in the US and was not adopted by any non-US armies in significant numbers.

[Hollis]

Very stupid list. No Mosin-Nagant or G3 but M14? Hah. Must be the rifle with the shortest lifetime ever in the US and was not adopted by any non-US armies in significant numbers.


Clyde not sure what your experience with the M14 is, or your knowledge of it's conception and use. It would have been the cat's meow in Korea or WWII, but the tactics and type of wars changed and from that a different rifle was needed for Standard issue for the infantry.

Mosin, is a fine Bolt gun, but as more and more semi autos became standard for infantry it too became a relic to history and limited in use. G-3 is another fine rifle, only problem is similar to M14, weight of ammunition. Same round. Weapons like the AK or M4, MP5 etc is becoming standard fare as wars like Korea and WWII, WWI become lost in time.

[Klatuu]

Very stupid list. No Mosin-Nagant or G3 but M14? Hah. Must be the rifle with the shortest lifetime ever in the US and was not adopted by any non-US armies in significant numbers.

It's still a very good rifle, and is now back in service. Lots of guys carrying them in Iraq and Afghanistan. I've owned both HK-91s and M-1As (civilian G3 and M-14, respectively). The M-1A was just as reliable, and more accurate than the G3.

[Hydro]

It's still a very good rifle, and is now back in service. Lots of guys carrying them in Iraq and Afghanistan. I've owned both HK-91s and M-1As (civilian G3 and M-14, respectively). The M-1A was just as reliable, and more accurate than the G3.



No ones disputing whether the M14 is a good rifle or not, rather has it made that much of an impact to be in a top 10 rifles list.

[Hollis]

No ones disputing whether the M14 is a good rifle or not, rather has it made that much of an impact to be in a top 10 rifles list.


Hydro, there you go and hurt my feelings, I was originally T/Oed on the M14.... She is my first love, it made a big impact on my life.

I would hate to make a list. I could not say much about firearms that I did not use in Military, even in civilian life often the benefits of a fine Military firearm may not be noted.

[Hydro]

Hydro, there you go and hurt my feelings, I was originally T/Oed on the M14.... She is my first love, it made a big impact on my life.




It's a fine looking rifle, I'd love to own the big 3 (FAL, G3, M14).

It's still a Garand knock off though ;)

[Hollis]

It's a fine looking rifle, I'd love to own the big 3 (FAL, G3, M14).

It's still a Garand knock off though ;)


yes basically a modernized Garand.

I have a Garand, M1A1, L1A1, and two G3's along with some other stuff.

[ClydeFrog]

Clyde not sure what your experience with the M14 is, or your knowledge of it's conception and use. It would have been the cat's meow in Korea or WWII, but the tactics and type of wars changed and from that a different rifle was needed for Standard issue for the infantry.

Mosin, is a fine Bolt gun, but as more and more semi autos became standard for infantry it too became a relic to history and limited in use. G-3 is another fine rifle, only problem is similar to M14, weight of ammunition. Same round. Weapons like the AK or M4, MP5 etc is becoming standard fare as wars like Korea and WWII, WWI become lost in time.

I'm not questioning the quality of the M14. But like Hydro said, its footprint in military history is of rather moderate size (as an issue rifle) compared to the other two I mentioned. Ah well, they should just stop making those lists.

[Hollis]

I'm not questioning the quality of the M14. But like Hydro said, its footprint in military history is of rather moderate size (as an issue rifle) compared to the other two I mentioned. Ah well, they should just stop making those lists.


No kidding on not making those lists, It is my experience those list are based more on personal experience than anything else. That makes it almost impossible to say which are the best, no one can serve in all the Militaries. I know my bias, is based on what I have used, was trained on, and fought with.

AS I mentioned with Hydro the M14 is the love of my life, I am very biased For that rifle. I know it's limitations, I would prefer a M4 for combat, but the M4 does not rattle my cage like the M14.

My sweet hearts.
http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k226/Hollis6475/PS6.jpg

[Klatuu]

No ones disputing whether the M14 is a good rifle or not, rather has it made that much of an impact to be in a top 10 rifles list.

And I wasn't arguing that it was a better choice for in the Top 10, as I think the CETME/G3 should be there instead since it is a distinct design and the M-14 is not. I was refuting the "stupid" part of the comment, because the M-14 is a better rifle, and the old "shortest lifetime" truism about the M-14 which we all knew was true at one time,no longer is. In fact, it is now the second-longest serving rifle in US military history, behind the 03A3 which was used as late as early Vietnam. The M14 is back in a big way, and not just in the M-21 sniper configuration.

The CETME/G3 may be better choice for the list, because the M-14 is a Garand derivation and can be said to be already represented, but the M-14 is hardly a "stupid" choice.

[arrowpanzer]

maybe in the reserve amories or war stock. most units are now converting to the c7a2. it is the same c7 with alot of simply mods to improve the usage by both right and left handed firers

[Hollis]

.

The CETME/G3 may be better choice for the list, because the M-14 is a Garand derivation and can be said to be already represented, but the M-14 is hardly a "stupid" choice.

I had a MAS 56, problem was only 7.5 French rounds I could get were Syrian.............. really crappy ammo. It seemed to be a fine firearm, I will never know. I sold it and never had good ammo for it.

reason I say that is, sometimes firearms to men, is similar to women to men, one man's Lady is the world to him but to another man, he may wonder what the first man sees in the lady.

[gaijinsamurai]

There were some MAS56 rifles converted to 7.62 NATO available on the US market a few years back. I wonder if those are still available.
I collect French Foreign Legion militaria, and always thought one would go good with a uniform/insignia/medals display, especially since I can't own a FAMAS.

[Hollis]

gaijin, might check with Navy Arms They had them in 7.5 French. I thought of a .308 conversion, but felt it was not worth the effort. I liked the rifle, but never really never the opportunity to play with it.

[gaijinsamurai]

I gotta agree with you on that, Hollis. If the price were right (which means REALLY CHEAP), I wouldn't mind having one, but I have a lot more rifles and pistols on my "gotta have" list that are better than the MAS 56, and sadly, only a limited budget from money hidden from the wife!

[USGRANT64]

http://military.discovery.com/convergence/topten/rifles/slideshow/slideshow.html

10 - M14
9 - Sturmgewehr 44
8 - Springfield 1903
7 - Steyr AUG 77
6 - Mauser K98K
5 - FN FAL
4 - M1 Garand
3 - Lee Enfield SMLE
2 - M 16
And a winner is - AK 47.


p.s. sorry if a repost.

I question the choice of the US Springfield 1903 as one of the top ten. Was not the '03 essentially a Mauser patented design? It was a Mauser in just about every category except looks. Instead of the '03 I would have selected the Russian or Finnish Mosin Nagant. Which was widely used, reliable, and not a Mauser design. The Mosin stayed in service from the late 1890's until through Korea and Vietnam.
However, it was an American made documentary and the proof-positive is the selection of the M-16 as number 2 on the list. I am not anti-M16 but as an ex-grunt I found it to be inferior weapon that the US military will not admit that its peformance is subpar unless you clean it every 5-minutes. Which is suprising given the financial resources availlable to the US military that for all their research the best they could come up with was the M-16.
Still this is just my opine and these kind of lists make interesting fodder for discussion. Perhaps we should make our own list? Thanks for posting!

Phil

[Roaming East]

mighty harsh words for the worlds 2nd most popular assault rifle.
2 is a good place for the M16.