.38 SPL Defensive Ammo

[Geezah]

I'm looking to get a Taurus 851 within the next month or so (when I've sold my WASR-10) and I was interested to find out from those that own them, what ammo they keep on hand for defensive purposes?

I'm only asking so that once I have it on hand I can try a few different loads out that others have had a good experience with and see what I think. I will be using Winchester White Box for general plinking purposes.

So what say the hive mind?

[Icarus1]

I own a 851 and I like it. I carried it sometime as backup or in summertime as primary weapon for several services.

The sights are very simple, but not to accurate on 15+ meters. Youc an use .38 special OR .357 magnum. Normally i trained with .38 spl (better for the revolver) and carried .357 Magnum in service. And .357 is a very good calibre. So it's better to load them and not the .38 special.

From time to time you have to take a screwdriver and tighten the screw of the release button.

[Geezah]

The exact model will be the 851SSUL.

Now the problem with the screw, something that loctite could fix?

Also, on the loads,(this may sound like a small question) can you shoot the .357 and .38SPL through the same pistol?

[StukaJr]

You can shoot .38spl through .357 but not the other way around...

If your revolver is +P rated, there are some .38 +P loads that will come close to .357 Magnum in velocity/bullet weight...

If your barrel is 2", a recommended load is .38 +P 135 grain Gold Dot HP.

[Geezah]

^ Thank you.

I wasn't sure if you could and I'm not in any rush to be a candidate for the Darwin award.

So we have Gold Dot HP as a start, any others that might be worth looking at?

Appreciate the answers so far, thanks

[Icarus1]

Bullet diameter is nearly the same (or even exactly), but the cartridge lenght is different. But .357 from a 2" Taurus has some kick. But when power counts... like I said, mostly used it as backup, and when you need backup then it counts! Thank god never used it.

Even my armourer couldn't fix the screw problem. After 100 shots it started to get loose every time. But then again: The revolver was about 350$ and worth the money. In service i check the weapon before I start, so it's no problem. Good gun, worth the money.

[Geezah]

I'm planning on carrying it as my main CCW, as I don't always carry my P239 and I want something I will carry all the time, plus when at work I can leave it locked in the glove compartment.

[Icarus1]

Go with the gun. It's a good one, never had problems, not a single failure until now. But I don't recommend the titanium one, to light for the calibre (my opinion).

S&W 647 would be another thought.

[Icarus1]

A little bit off topic, but for the backup thing. Since we use Glock 19 (about half a year ago) in service, I started to carry a Glock 26 for backup. Why? It's nearly the same size as the Taurus and I can use the same magazines as for my primary weapon.

[Geezah]

Go with the gun. It's a good one, never had problems, not a single failure until now. But I don't recommend the titanium one, to light for the calibre (my opinion).

It's not the titanium, it's the stainless steel ultra lite, 16ozs, or there abouts.

I also thinkthey have lifetime warranty so I'll be sending it back if there are any problems.



S&W 647 would be another thought.

My brothers mate has a 647,if it's the hammerless .38SPL? I found the trigger pull on DA to be too much, that's why I thought the 851 would be a better choice because of the DA/SA which I'm used to with the SIGs.

[Icarus1]

Lightweight stainless is okay, I have the lightweight but in black.

S&W 647 is the hammerless revolver in .38spl, that's right sir. Pretty hard trigger, but I think with some exercise you can master it. But I did go with the Taurus. Fits my needs better. I think you'll like it. And the price is fair.

[yiorgo]

I also carry the speer gold dot 135 plus P in my scandium 340 pd S&W

[LtVacan]

Geezah,

With a gun that light you might want to go with a standard pressure load like the Federal 110gr. JHP. Its a good defensive round and much easier to control. The 125 gr. nyclad is good if you can find some, but they do not make those anymore. I still have 5 of them for my Model 38 airweight bodyguard.

That is another gun you may want to check out. the S&W model 38 and 638 in stainless have a hammer shroud to keep the hammer from snagging, but there is still enough hammer sticking out to **** it if you want.

I like mine as a dog walking gun, and as a backup. I usually carry a Sig p239 (or two) or a P229, though I still like the wheelguns a lot.

[GammaDriver]

I've got a S&W 642 that I'd rather carry over most, if not all, other handguns (much easier to live with than my G23).

Back when I was researching .38 ammo for defensive loads, that strange flat-nosed wadcutter kept getting mentioned as the round many police prefered back in the day most PD's issued .38 SP's. Due to their expansion within the chamber, they're accurate despite what they look like, and they are soft enough to expand/deform after a hit. For thse reasons, plus the lower recoil (these small, lightweight pistols do make round all the more 'snappy') which aids in a follow up shot, I prefer to carry wadcutters as my .38 defensive round.

Edit: Well, isn't this interesting: http://www.snubnose.info/docs/snubby_ballistics.htm

Ballistics from a 2" barrel, with pictures.

[Laconian]

I have a S&W 640-1 (hammerless style) nicest 5-shot I've ever owned (I've had a S&W 36, 37 and 60). I carry it as primary, secondary and tertiary.

My load is Federal 38+P 158 gr NYCLAD SWC-HP. Adequate out of a 2" and five shots fast are controlable.

I would recommend Bianchi Speed Strips over speed loader for concealed carry.

[Hollis]

It is interesting to see Wheel Guns making a come back, especially in ultra light carry. When I carried a Smith's Chief Special as a boot gun, I had it loaded hot with 148 grain wad cutters loaded inverted, Base out. The idea was a "belly button" gun. That was sometime back, there are better bullets today.

Essentially 9mm and 38 SP are the same ballistically. Difference is case and bullet (.356 Vs .357). Look in to Le Mas bullets or any of the newer models.

The ultralight .357 are exceptional for carry weapons because of weight, but they are not meant for shooting for fun, nasty recoil on magnum loads. I would opt for the .357 over 38 Sp, because on interchangeability that has already been mentioned.

Also some other choices are .32 H&H Mag. I think some folks carry enough to fight a war with. Biggest issue I have found with conceal carry is weight and bulk.... carrying it all the time. Then considering last fight fight was in 1969......... I think one needs to approach carry as a practical situation, I doubt if I will ever need what I carried in 1969 again. I am no longer in the military or in LEO, or how likely is a Hollyweird shoot scenario will happen. a wheel gun with 5 or 6 rounds is probably more than enough. Carrying a Auto with extended capacity mags and some extra mags is, IMHO, excessive for the preponderance of Conceal carry for the average person (LEOs, military, some other special groups excluded).

[Icarus1]

Very good post HOLLIS. Wheelguns are very reliable, easy to handle, and reloadings houldn't be a problem. And when in a self defense situation you need more than 5 shots to hit your target... go to practice on the range is more worth than buying an auto with high cap magazine.

When you are chosing a wheelgun for your personal protection spend some hours to get the trigger control right. Because in a such a situation you're not able to **** the hammer, and revolvers go hard on double action. Just squeeze and watch the front sight :-)

[rister]

I'm sure you guys mean the S&W 649 Caliber: .357MAG/.38+P

The S&W 647 is Caliber: .17 Hornady Magnum(HMR)
Capacity: 6 Rounds
Barrel Length: 8-3/8" Full Lug
Front Sight: Pinned Patridge
Rear Sight: Adjustable Black
Firing System: N/A
Grip: Hogue Rubber
Trigger: .400" Smooth Target
Hammer: .500" Target
External Safety: N/A
Frame: Medium
Finish: Satin Stainless
Overall length: 13-1/2"
Material: Stainless Steel
Weight Empty: 52.5 ounces

[Buckeye67]

I've carried 158gr LSWCH (lead semi-wadcutter hollowpoint) +P in my S&W Model 65 3" quite a lot. There are some new loads that look good too, like this 135gr JHP: http://www.thegunzone.com/speer135jhp38sp.html

I really like CorBon's product line too. They have a nice 125gr JHP load. What I like about CorBon is that they use a flash-retardant in their powder so you get a LOT less muzzle flash in low-light situations. We carried their 9mm 115gr +P load when I was copping over across the river. It's good stuff.

[Geezah]

My load is Federal 38+P 158 gr NYCLAD SWC-HP. Adequate out of a 2" and five shots fast are controlable.

So I'm gearing up to getting my Taurus 851, AIM told me it shouldbe here in the next couple of weeks. So I've narrowed the ammo down to Speer 135gr Gold Dots and NYCLADs to try.

Laconian, if you don't mind me asking, where did you purchase your NYCLADs as I can't find any retailers online that sell them?

[California Joe]

I actually carried a S&W wheelgun as a cop when I got out of the academy...it was right before we went to semi autos. They were stainless Model 60s? 61? 4 inch barrel.... I can't remember the model number for the life of me. When we were in the academy and finally went for firearms training we were firing over 300 rounds a day, .38 wadcutters through them which was fun. At the end they gave us carry loads .357 +P, the guys that had never shot much jumped like a bastard when we started firing those and the flame was shooting out the end of the barrel. Big damned difference from the .38s. hehe

[Hollis]

I actually carried a S&W wheelgun as a cop when I got out of the academy...it was right before we went to semi autos. They were stainless Model 60s? 61? 4 inch barrel.... I can't remember the model number for the life of me. When we were in the academy and finally went for firearms training we were firing over 300 rounds a day, .38 wadcutters through them which was fun. At the end they gave us carry loads .357 +P, the guys that had never shot much jumped like a bastard when we started firing those and the flame was shooting out the end of the barrel. Big damned difference from the .38s. hehe


We had Smiths model 19 Issued. My boot gun was a chief special, Inverted 148 grain hollow base wad cutters, loaded to +P.

[California Joe]

I really can't remember. That's pretty bad. I'll have to look it up. Gawd, I'll get kicked out of the Gun Nuts Club....:)

It looked a lot like this one only it came with wooden grips, I changed mine to Pachmayrs

http://www.smith-wesson.com/wcsstore/SmWesson/upload/images/firearms/164222_thumb.jpg

[Buckeye67]

We were issued S&W Model 686's in '88 when I started out. Nothing like the presence of a bigass L-Frame revolver to keep the natives in line. p-)

Were I to get back into it and work for a department that let me carry whatever I wanted - I'd carry a 686 if for nothing else than to drive all the young guys nuts... "OMG A REVOLVER!?!? YOU NEED MORE FIREPOWER!" ;)

[California Joe]

That must be it then. I joined around the same time. They are nice shooting handguns.

[Buckeye67]

Probably the most common revolvers around that time would have been the 686:

http://content.imagesocket.com/thumbs/686f23.jpg (http://imagesocket.com/view/686f23.jpg)

or the Model 64:
http://content.imagesocket.com/thumbs/M64560.jpg (http://imagesocket.com/view/M64560.jpg)

And yeah, the wood grips sucked.

[Laconian]

So I'm gearing up to getting my Taurus 851, AIM told me it shouldbe here in the next couple of weeks. So I've narrowed the ammo down to Speer 135gr Gold Dots and NYCLADs to try.

Laconian, if you don't mind me asking, where did you purchase your NYCLADs as I can't find any retailers online that sell them?

Geezah,

I'm sorry I won't be of much help, my Nyclads are issued by my agency. I haven't bought .38 (or .40 or .223 ammo) in about 10 years...

My first duty piece was a Model 19 4". I put custom S&W wood finger groove grips on it. It was sweet. Carried a S&W Model 37 as a back-up. After about 1 1/2 years we switched to S&W 3rd gen semi-autos. I miss the wheel gun.

[BillySing]

.38 spl defensive ammo??? Anything with a hollow point big enough to sip brandy from. :)

[California Joe]

Thanks Buckeye, it was the 64. :)

[Indiana Jones]

Look in to Le Mas bullets or any of the newer models.

Despite our quarrels elsewhere, so far I was under the impression that you knew your guns and ballistics. LeMas has been proven repeatedly to be a masterpiece of marketing and bull**** artistry and hardly a leap forward in any respect. Dr. Roberts and others have evaluated Le Mas bullets extensively and came to rather sobering conclusions...Some conversations between Roberts and Stan Bulmer of LeMas are recorded here:
http://www.tacticalforums.com/

[Geezah]

Geezah,

I'm sorry I won't be of much help, my Nyclads are issued by my agency. I haven't bought .38 (or .40 or .223 ammo) in about 10 years...

No problem, I appreciate the responses, I'll just have to kick the internet fu into high gear and let the force find them for me:)

[Buckeye67]

Thanks Buckeye, it was the 64. :)

Actually I think I lied to you. :p

I thought something wasn't quite right and after doing a bit of looking I rediscovered that the Mod. 64 is the stainless version of the Model 10 (.38 Spl). The Model 66 is the stainless version of the Model 13 - which is the .357.

So it was a Model 66 and not a 64. I had a 2 1/2" Mod 66 that I carried for a while as an off duty gun. I sold it off at some point, but eventually picked up a 3" model 65 (fixed sight version of the 66) which I still have and will likely never get rid of. It's a fantastic revolver. :)

Sorry about the confusion.

Geez - I haven't looked into it much but is there a significant difference between the 158gr nyclads and the 158gr +p lead semi-wadcutter hollowpoints? I know the latter you can find pretty everywhere. If you can't find the nyclads that might be another thing to look into.

[California Joe]

Hahaha, hey, I'm the one who can't remember what the hell it was, not you.

See, I'd be a crappy Navy SEAL poser or some sh*t, I can't remember simple stuff I actually did....:)

[Geezah]

Geez - I haven't looked into it much but is there a significant difference between the 158gr nyclads and the 158gr +p lead semi-wadcutter hollowpoints? I know the latter you can find pretty everywhere. If you can't find the nyclads that might be another thing to look into.

AmmoMan has the NYCLAD HPs but it's a 5 box min, while I might like them I'm not up for purchasing 250rnds of NYCLADs for a wheel gun.
I might purchase a box of Speer Gold Dots and see if I like those.

I'll see if I can find the WCs as well;)

[Geezah]

Well, it's been a great week for me.

Went down to AIM to pick up some .45ACP for the Colt and Bryan told me he had good news and bad news.
The Taurus came in, but it was a stainless steel unltralite, not the stainless steel model I wanted.
He told me he would cut me a deal on it, so after a few minutes of thinking I filled out the(no longer yellow) paperwork, and I left the store with a brand new Taurus 851:D

I really wanted the stainless steel over the ultra lite for the added weight, as I'm not sure how much of a zing the UL will give me with standard pressure rnds. It weighs 16.8ozs, and the SS is 25ozs.

Anyway, I'm happy:D

[GammaDriver]

Congrats on the new shooter. I think you're going to come to appreciate the carry-ability of the lighter pistol over the years. I know mine, when put at the right place IWB, feels like it's made to be a part of the wardrobe every day.

My S&W is reportedly 15 oz. and, initially, it did have a bit of zing with standard pressure rounds.

My brother and sister-in-law took it out just last week and put 200 rounds of reloaded "Zero" brand ammo. The pistol really wasn't as bad as I recalled it being, but it was more than my SIL could take after a while.

I wouldn't hesitate to put a few (like, up to 20) +P rounds through it for practice... but that Zero ammo was perfect for a morning at the range. Both the light Taurus and the S&W's are probably the types of pistols a shooter needs to learn how to properly hold.

[Geezah]

I'm worried I may not like shooting the Taurus, I did get to shoot a 4" S&W in .38spl that was blued before Christmas, and that is pretty much all the experience I have with .38s.
Hopefully I'll come to enjoy it, but I doubt I will put +Ps through it all that often.

[GammaDriver]

Enjoy shooting it? Don't take this the wrong way, as it isn't an insult, but I hope ya realize you bought a defensive handgun as opposed to a defensive/plinker the moment you chose a 2" barrel.

Are you going to enjoy it at the range? Sure! But not for its comfort much past 100 or 200 rounds, and not for its inherent accuracy past ~30 yards. In that regard, it isn't a steel 4" S&W.

But... as for a weapon you may actually be able to use, more easily, and more often, you may have made the better investment. I, too, have really liked the longer wheelguns I've played with, but to be honest - all of my friends' wheelguns sit in their safes, as range shooting is one of those things that most do in certain phases of life, then just do other things for a few years. Out of all of those comfortable shooters I know of, my little wheely gets handled and used (well, thankfully not "fully" used) way more often when I decide to conceal-carry it (sometimes it's nice to have a little post-hurricane protection when first motoring around in a non-damaged, full-of-fuel truck right after a hurricane down here - the looks of desperation of some of the people roaming the streets post-hurricane is reason, enough, to be a little careful).

And there's no reason why you couldn't still experiement, and ramp up, the weapon's, and your, shooting abilities with loading, stance and shooting technique experimentation - it just probably won't be out to as long of a range (I did, on one occasion, hit a 100 yard target with a snubby S&W .38 with one of ten lead rounds - from a non-supported Weaver-stance - none of the others were on the paper - you may progress to playing with ranges like that, and reloading, to see how much you can refine your shots). :)

Edit: Lastly, from what I have read via the internet, dry-firing these wheelies isn't too bad for them. If you really want to, get snap caps, but whatever you do, do dry-fire it a good amount (like, I would do so while playing an online game or watching TV) to soften up those double action springs. So far I'd say I have somewhere under 400 rounds through mine, but probably about 800 (or more) trigger pulls, and the trigger pull has softened up, and maybe even smoothed up, considerably. (instead of snap caps, it seems you can use once-fired cases a few times as you can readily see the primer dent gets bigger, or deeper, each time - so the pin must be hitting it).

[Geezah]

I won't take any advice the wrong way, because at the moment regarding .38s I'm an empty cup. I'll take as much in as possible and you are right the revolver was bought as a defensive firearm but I wanted it to be one that if the time ever came I would not have a problem letting off more thna one rnd.
I may be crying over something that will notbe that bad and even though it looks crap out today I may brave the range as I have that itch;)

[Hollis]

Enjoy shooting it? Don't take this the wrong way, as it isn't an insult, but I hope ya realize you bought a defensive handgun as opposed to a defensive/plinker the moment you chose a 2" barrel.


Gamma, Also don't take this wrong, You fell into the "liberal anti-gun" trap. Defining how another person's gun should be used and what it is made for.

I plink with a 2" barrel wheel gun, and a few auto will probably a slightly short barrel. I plink completely for fun. As along as I don't use a firearm illegally it is no bodies business what I use it for, A fishing weight, a safe queen, a wall hanger, shooting cans, making paper targets holy or what ever.

The argument of defining and determining another person has been used to support the Assault weapon ban. Like, "why in hell does a person needs a magazine over 10 rds? (insert evil reason here). Why does a person need a bayonet lug, it is a military weapon why do civilians need a military weapon?......etc

Assault weapon band proved that, that argument does not work. It only punished responsible and law abiding citizens and rewarded the criminal.

A friend a avid sportsman and bird hunter, told me once, that a Beretta 92 was made only to kill people. For a firearm owner he too fell into that trap too.

The name "assault weapon" in the US was develop to mentally conjure a weapon that its only purpose is to kill people, and therefore ownership should be restricted.-----> Assault Weapon Ban.

[Geezah]

Well, it was no where near as bad as I thought. I enjoyed the revolver and while it may not be that accurate at distances(which may be user error) it is a fun gun.
I did end up with a blister that popped and started bleeding for my troubles, which I did not notice until after the fact, but it was still fun, but that was when the fun ended.
I actually took it over to my cousins farm in Richmond, In so that I could visit my brother and cousin and shoots the new tools.
I enjoyed but I think I will only shoot standard pressure rnds through it.

[GammaDriver]

LOL, both my brother and my SIL ended up with hurt hands from that day of shooting. He was holding it too high on the grip, and her small hand made her have to reach in a way, for leverage, that put her thumb right st the knurled cylinder release - he had a blister, and she was bleeding from her thumb for a good while.

I was surprised I was doing as well as I was for that many rounds; I must be learning how to hold it better than I had in the past.

Geezah, you may want to cheat a little to really get he feel for the Taurus's accuracy: For accuracy at distances, this last time, the range actually had sandbags there, so I rested the trigger-guard onto one just to see how I'd do. I was impressed enough with hitting the small targets that I'm sure I'll do a few distanced targets that way again.

[Geezah]

The fact I now have sissy hands, as pointed out by my brother may factor into the blister, but I did also go rapids shots to see how quick you could follow up.

It was fun, don't get me wrong and I'm pleased with the purchase, I just need to get in more range time as yesterday, we were short of standing in marshland because of how wet the fields were.