REQ: Allied plans for airborne assault on Berlin in 1945!

[lightfire]

Does anyone have any detailed plans/maps or any regarding additional info on Allied plans to take Berlin in 1945 with airborne assault? Eisenhower thought about this idea, but it seamed to be unrealisitc,due to the enourmous recourses and possible costs, besides Berlin was to fall under the influence of USSR anyway after the war.
Anything else?

thanks

[Canuck Farrier]

plans quite possibly im sure someone around here knows or has something.It is a very Interesting situation.The Russian troops did a good job.RIP to the fallen.It was a important victory no matter who did it.I dont forget them.

[Hypno85]

I think it was a idea but Eisenhower knew it wasn't going be in the hands of the Western Allies after the war so didn't want to commit forces and supply's. I think they bombed Berlin to try help soften the defense.

[lightfire]

yea, I know, I was just looking for more details:-(
What about Allied airdrop on Warsaw to support the uprising in 1944? A polish parachute force should have landed.. any plans on that?

[Lokos]

If this plan existed, it would have been ridiculously impracticable.

Lokos

[Fade]

If this plan existed, it would have been ridiculously impracticable.

Lokos

Ok, now I am curious - impractical because of the fact there was already ground troops making their way in, or impractical because of anti-aircraft defenses? High troop losses? All of the above?

Enlighten us! :)

[Flamming_Python]

Ok, now I am curious - impractical because of the fact there was already ground troops making their way in, or impractical because of anti-aircraft defenses? High troop losses? All of the above?

Enlighten us! :)

Probably impractical because the entire place was a fortress. No way to make a dent without massive armour and artillery support. Anti-aircraft defenses would have all been concentrated on the airspace above one city, as well as any remains of the Luftwaffe. So much German infantry and armed civilians that anyone parachuting directly into the city would have been dead before landing.

[Snoshi]

Ok, now I am curious - impractical because of the fact there was already ground troops making their way in, or impractical because of anti-aircraft defenses? High troop losses? All of the above?

Enlighten us! :)

NOOOO! You have awaken the mighty Lokos! Run.

[Flamming_Python]

NOOOO! You have awaken the mighty Lokos! Run.

He'll probably sharpen his claws by ripping apart my counter-arguements first, leaving him to close in for the real kill on Fade without any competition.

[Kilgor]

Probably impractical because the entire place was a fortress. No way to make a dent without massive armour and artillery support. Anti-aircraft defenses would have all been concentrated on the airspace above one city, as well as any remains of the Luftwaffe. So much German infantry and armed civilians that anyone parachuting directly into the city would have been dead before landing.

I doubt the plan was at all feasible, but it would be questionable if the army and volkstrum would have fought with the same determination against the Americans and Brits as they did the Russians.

Scores of civilians and Soldiers were desperately trying to cross the elbe away from the Russian advance. A saying at the time was "optimists learn English, pessimists learn Russian"

Though a airborne drop into Berlin would have been a reckless gamble.

[Zorro C9]

Lightfire,

If you're in the US, make an FOIA request on the matter. Should shed some interesting details.

[Lokos]

Ok, now I am curious - impractical because of the fact there was already ground troops making their way in, or impractical because of anti-aircraft defenses? High troop losses? All of the above?


All of the above.

1) How were the WA to put together the airborne force required for the taking of Festung Berlin? Even a dozen divisions of light infantry (which paras were) would not have sufficed.

2) How were the WA to supply this force in a highly fluidic combat environment?

3) How were the WA to overcome the AA defences installed to protect Berlin from air bombardment?

4) And, most of all, how were the WA going to explain this operation to Stalin, to whom they'd guaranteed the 'honour' of taking Berlin?


I doubt the plan was at all feasible, but it would be questionable if the army and volkstrum would have fought with the same determination against the Americans and Brits as they did the Russians.


An unknown variable, with little applicability. What were the forces in question to do? Surrender to paratroopers cut off from friendly forces? Were they simply to avert shooting at said paratroopers, and pretend they weren't there, hoping for the same in return?


Though a airborne drop into Berlin would have been a reckless gamble.

I prefer the term 'suicide', instead.

Lokos

[Canuck Farrier]

I agree with Lokos, "suicide" would be a good description.Especially when you consider the Russian casulties taking the city with Tanks artillery SPguns and a hell of alot of Infantry.around 200 000 casulties if I remember correctly.

[Connaught Ranger]

Hallo Gentlemen:)

With regards a potential air-drop on Berlin, did any Para Unit in any known modern war ever drop onto a city or even a town for that matter, from what I gather in regards to air-drops the paras like a nice bit of countryside to land in, citys have to many built up obstacles, (commonly known as buildings:-Pwhich along with the downward force known as gravity) can seriously disrupt, scatter, disperse the grouping together of the dropped troops, over a wide area.

I imagine maintaining radio communications in and around the buildings, among the sections, platoons, Regiment(s) amongst themselves would be a nightmare, not to mention long distant contact with their base.

Also a situation similar to a "Bridge to Far" would be re-enacted with ground forces trying to fight their way forward to link up with the Paras.

So in the long run, not fesable, to costly in man-power and resources, Berlin wasn't going anywhere in a hurry, so the Allies could afford to wait,
but as it fell to the Russians to take it, due to the politicals, therefore a great saving in Allied lives.

Just my tuppence worth:)

Connaught Ranger.

[Histy]

^^didn't the Fallschirmhjager do a drop near Kiev?

Anyway. The Western Allies had a decision between going for Berlin to stop the Soviets Zone of Controll there or follow intelligence that the Nazi Hardcores would hold themselves up in the Alps in a National Redoubt or "Alpenfestung".

They went with the Alpen theory and the 101st Airborn strolled through an empty egales nest and into austria.

[Royal]

They went with the Alpen theory and the 101st Airborn strolled through an empty egales nest and into austria.

Once the French had cleared the way IIRC ;)

[lightfire]

Well, I've managed to dig smth myself through reading. It seams, allied plans existed, and were to be used in particular case-if nazzi leadership collapsed in the case of coup or some other extraordinary event, that would paralyze Berlin defences at least on the west, while still fighting at the Oder. At least 3 airborne divisions: American 101st was tasked to Tempelhof, 82nd to Gatow, and british 1st or 6th to...eeerm.. another airfield in the North of Berlin.These 3 for the initail assault were to rush from their objectives and secure the citty or go straight to the center, depending on the level of resistance. After those 3 others were to land for reinforcement.
The question of coup in nazzi leadership after the Jully plot was still open, esspecially after insane orders from Hitler and Himler. That was quite a fear by Stalin, he never truly trusted Churchil, which would have a go on Berlin opperation, but neither Rossevelt nor Ike was ready for this. I believe if some sort of coup had succeded in Berlin, there might have been a chance of success in the mess, while the hardcore nazis would retreat to their "national redoubt".. But as all these chances were theoretical the opperation was never trully concidered as real. i.e. less real than "Olympic"

[stonecutter]

I believe that any para drop on a well-defended position would be suicide. Look at what happened to the German paratroops in Crete; they were shot down like rabbits by the New Zealanders. Many tried to surrender in their harnesses while floating down.

[CPL Trevoga]

I believe that any para drop on a well-defended position would be suicide. Look at what happened to the German paratroops in Crete; they were shot down like rabbits by the New Zealanders. Many tried to surrender in their harnesses while floating down.

Para landing is dangerous in it self, even in the open field. Landing in the urban area is extremely dangerous, you can easily kill yourself or seriously injure yourself hitting a buildings, power lines, cars. Too much obstruction to just to safely land, never mind the defenders.

[Lokos]

Once again, I don't understand how this thread is even still going. A hypothetical 35,000-40,000 light infantrymen assaulting a major urban centre? The Soviet Union amassed over two million boots on the ground for the Berlin Operation. German defences were systemic, in depth and formidable. Such an operation would be the end of those airborne divisions.

Lokos

[lightfire]

Once again, I don't understand how this thread is even still going. A hypothetical 35,000-40,000 light infantrymen assaulting a major urban centre? The Soviet Union amassed over two million boots on the ground for the Berlin Operation. German defences were systemic, in depth and formidable. Such an operation would be the end of those airborne divisions.

Lokos

This thread is going on, because, as I've said, I found at least smth more about the probability of such opperation. The only conciderable option for such airborne opp. would have been a sudden collapse of nazi government (smth like the collapse of Sadam Husein regime in 2003). A possible coup was not unthinkable-Jully plot is only one materialisation of unsatisfaction in Hitlers or nazi politics in overal.
It is also not a secrect, that With huge soviet forces approaching Germany, and essp after soviet actions in East Prussia, many in Germany have seen alternative options, to which Hitler-Himler-Georing gang was quite an obstacle, full of insanity. Insane Hitlers orders have often made german field commanders furious and soldiers-helpless and confused. It is not a secrect that germans were surrendering en mase to western allies in 1945, and for many it seamed much better to surender (after fight of cource) to western powers, rather than to soviets. Giving more and more german soil without serious fight germans inflamed the race for Berlin (don't tell me there was no such thing). Brits wanted Berlin ("to shake hands with russians as far to the east as possible") certain american generals wanted that as well, so did the soviets, of cource. While many german strongest forces remained in early 1945 were fighting on the eastern front, and in spring-on Oder front line, the western part as well as Berlin were stripped for any major offenssive. The pockets of resistance consisted mainly of nazi hardliners and collapsing units of several armies. So if there would have been any succesfull attempt of coup, or collapse of nazi governemnt in Berlin, very few could attempted to resist even the airborne opperation. But that's certainlly a theory-Allies would have needed perfect circumstances of the coup or collapse, compleate dissorder of the defenders in Berlin, while they atempting to seek any negotiations of truce, good weather and rapid exploitation of landing in Tempelhof, Gatow and other airfields in Berlin. A coodinated thrust of allied armour fom Elbe would also be needed. So it was a complexible theoretical opperation and chances of succes depended not necesserrilly of sheer numbers or firepower of paratroopers, but on other optimistic factors as well. It was an option, never complemented, but Stalin feared this option..

[Indiana Jones]

I believe that any para drop on a well-defended position would be suicide. Look at what happened to the German paratroops in Crete; they were shot down like rabbits by the New Zealanders. Many tried to surrender in their harnesses while floating down.
Not exactly...
German casualties out of roughly 30 000 engaged: Total: 6580 (KIA/MIA:3986) Please note that many of these were personnel of the 5.Gebirgsdivision, a majority of them being killed while still at sea. Source:Official figures as recorded in the BA-MA Freiburg-largely matched by divisional histories.
Allied casualties out of approx. 41 800 engaged: Total: 17 400 British & ANZAC (KIA/MIA: 15500), Greek & assorted others: 5500. The commonly perpetuated myth of the Fallschirmjäger being killed in droves is just that: A myth. While some subunits were indeed almost completely rendered combat-ineffective, the 7. Fliegerdivision remained largely intact !
As Lokos pointed out however, an attempt to take Berlin by inserting 3 divisional-sized airborne formations would have most likely resulted in utter disaster.

[Smersh]

I'm not so sure about this idea that the german people would have loved the americans so much. It was very much in their minds what allied american-british bombing had done to them. There is no reason to think berlin defenders would have fought less hard against a american para-landing. there was a joke in berlin at the time of the soviet attack "better a Ruski on top, then a Yankee overhead".

A para-landing into Berlin, is very impractical and would have been 'suicide', and secondly it would have extremely complicated the american-soviet relationship, as already pointed out.

[Grach]

Ok, now I am curious - impractical because of the fact there was already ground troops making their way in, or impractical because of anti-aircraft defenses? High troop losses? All of the above?

Enlighten us! :)
Artillery was bashing Berlin so hard it would cover anyone trying to paradrop as well. It's simply not a good idea to get in a middle of squeezing circle - you'll either disturb the whole process or get smashed along with anything that gets in a way. Besides, most troops would have been shot before reaching the surface, unless you jump way outside city's limits, but then you would have to conduct the land assault, doomed to fail with no large ground force support, IMHO.

[lightfire]

there was a joke in berlin at the time of the soviet attack "better a Ruski on top, then a Yankee overhead".

.

as for jokes, there have been many in those days, for example another- "optinmists are learning english, pesimists-russian", besides, there were many in those critical days amoung the general staff who wished either to make separate peace with the Allies, or at least give them up to americans, brits, rather than soviets. Many wanted to save Berlin, or what was left of it from the soviets, essp after what happened in Eastern Prussia, and Hitler's+Himler's actions concerning Oder front. The numbers of prisioners on the west shows, that the resistnace for Allied advance was weaker with every day voluntarily, while resisting soviets was more a question of life and death.

As for "artilery bashing Berlin", it did not start until final thrust of soviet forces, smth around Hitlers' birthday, when the plans for airborne assault or any coup, collapse of power in Berlin were burried.

[Doublethinker]

Lighfire,

if there really were any coup the airbone units would be there just to accept capitulation (faster than the Russians), as far as I understand, not really CONQUER the city.

Even a small fraction of the remaining forces in Berlin would have been enough to prevent any allied landing so it hardly has anything to do with military planning.

[lightfire]

Lighfire,

if there really were any coup the airbone units would be there just to accept capitulation (faster than the Russians), as far as I understand, not really CONQUER the city.

Even a small fraction of the remaining forces in Berlin would have been enough to prevent any allied landing so it hardly has anything to do with military planning.


mostly correct. I was not and I am not claiming that an airborne assault could have been succesfull againts well determined,organised and fanatc enemy in a fortified citty.
That was the plan, and airborne troops would have to secure the city,or at least its key parts (airfields, ammo dumps,command buildings) because of the possible hardliners/nazi hardcore ones-not all would agree ith truce or capitulation without a fight.