Russia sends missiles to Iran

[CG51]

Russia sends missiles to Iran (http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/11/24/russia.iran.reut/index.html)


MOSCOW, Russia (AP) -- Russia has begun delivery of Tor-M1 air defense missile systems to Iran, a Defense Ministry official said Friday, confirming that Moscow would proceed with arms deals with Tehran in spite of U.S. criticism.

The official, who spoke on condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to discuss the issue, declined to specify when the deliveries had been made and how many systems had been delivered.

Ministry officials have previously said Moscow would supply 29 of the sophisticated missile systems to Iran under a $700 million (565 million euros) contract, according to Russian media reports.

The United States called on all countries last spring to stop all arms exports to Iran, as well as ending all nuclear cooperation with it to put pressure on Tehran to halt uranium enrichment activities.

Tehran insists its nuclear program is for peaceful purposes, but the United States and its allies suspect Iran is trying to develop weapons.

[sferrin]

It'll be interesting to finally see a double-digit SAM in action. Of course all we're likely to hear on it is "it would have performed better in Russia's hands" ;)

[TR1]

It'll be interesting to finally see a double-digit SAM in action. Of course all we're likely to hear on it is "it would have performed better in Russia's hands" ;)

cause the USA never makes claims like that, right?

[sir-chimp]

It'll be interesting to finally see a double-digit SAM in action. Of course all we're likely to hear on it is "it would have performed better in Russia's hands" ;)

export version

[sferrin]

cause the USA never makes claims like that, right?

Israel doesn't seem to have any trouble with US stuff. Neither does the UK, Japan, Taiwan, SK, Australia, Turkey, Greece, etc. etc. etc. Seems like any time someone uses Russian stuff in a conflict though it's "they didn't know how to use it correctly".

[TR1]

Israel doesn't seem to have any trouble with US stuff. Neither does the UK, Japan, Taiwan, SK, Australia, Turkey, Greece, etc. etc. etc. Seems like any time someone uses Russian stuff in a conflict though it's "they didn't know how to use it correctly".


yeah, cause India used Russian equipment SO terribly against US equipped pakistan. and cause the arabs never used Russians SAM's effectively, right? Vietnam? EO had no complains about the Russian equipment they used in Africa.

[NicNZ]

Israel doesn't seem to have any trouble with US stuff. Neither does the UK, Japan, Taiwan, SK, Australia, Turkey, Greece, etc. etc. etc. Seems like any time someone uses Russian stuff in a conflict though it's "they didn't know how to use it correctly".

You have to remember that the Soviets, unlike the US as I understand it, really did produce export versions of their hardware, which was significantly inferior to the hardware they used themselves. As such, the argument "it was just an export version" is quite a valid response.

[sir-chimp]

yeah, cause India used Russian equipment SO terribly against US equipped pakistan. and cause the arabs never used Russians SAM's effectively, right? Vietnam? EO had no complains about the Russian equipment they used in Africa.

you shut up and eat your pie, no more sass mouth from you

[TR1]

you shut up and eat your pie, no more sass mouth from you

I would be eating a pie right now, if YOU had sent it through express mail to me. now i have to wait a week before it gets here.

[Dima-RussianArms]

export version
At least Russia sends its export versions to other countries, US seems to equip its own Navy with export version of sonars ;)

Tors' are very capable systems but unfortunately for Iran they are not going to make much of a difference: too late & too few.
They were designed to be part of the layered airdefense, something that Iran doesn't really have.
We will see but I wouldn't hold my breath.

If only Iran had S300V, Buk, Tor and Tunguska as a complete and integrated package.

[sir-chimp]

I would be eating a pie right now, if YOU had sent it through express mail to me. now i have to wait a week before it gets here.

I am digging on some of moms home made pecan pie bitch

[TR1]

I am digging on some of moms home made pecan pie bitch

pecan pie is for amatuers. and chechens. in ther words people like you.

[sir-chimp]

pecan pie is for amatuers. and chechens. in ther words people like you.

admiral akbar kaboom

[TR1]

admiral akbar kaboom

its a trap. comencing battle bear invasion.

[MichaelF]

Russian gear seemingly works well.

Just not for Arabs.

We'll have to wait and see with the Persians...

[Canuck Farrier]

Didnt Israel develop Merkervas due to US tanks not being up to their par.

[D-gin]

Didnt Israel develop Merkervas due to US tanks not being up to their par.
Yep.....



Following the Six-Day War (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six-Day_War) and the French (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/France) embargo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embargo) on Israel, the IDF signed a deal with the United Kingdom (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom) for joint development of a new main battle tank—the Chieftain (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chieftain_tank). In 1969 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1969), following Arab (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab) pressure, the British cancelled the deal with Israel and expelled them from the Chieftain project, Britain went on to continue the project with Iran (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran). Israel realized that it could not rely on other countries (except perhaps the US [1] (http://meria.idc.ac.il/journal/2004/issue2/rodman.pdf)) to supply it with weapon systems and seriously began to consider self-manufacturing a main battle tank—one of the most crucial elements of ground armoured forces (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armoured_forces). Although the near-disaster of the 1973 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1973) Yom Kippur War (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yom_Kippur_War) had been resolved, in part, with an American delivery of reserve armour, the war brought home the fact that the small nation of Israel could not afford excessive casualties; the Merkava was thus to be designed for crew survival. Moreover, while a damaged tank may be repaired in a matter of hours or days, training a tank crew to the very high level of competence typical of Israeli tank crews takes many months.

The Israeli government decided in 1970 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1970) that it needed an indigenous tank-building capacity. General (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General) Israel Tal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_Tal) led a development team which took into consideration Israel's unique battlefield characteristics and lessons learned from previous wars, focusing on speed and protection of the crew. The development of the Merkava was formally acknowledged by the Israeli government on May 13 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/May_13), 1977 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1977).


Link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merkava

[Metastaz]

Israel doesn't seem to have any trouble with US stuff. Neither does the UK, Japan, Taiwan, SK, Australia, Turkey, Greece, etc. etc. etc.
There are no arabs in that countries. ;)

P.S. Don't call me racist. ;)

[nagant_m44]

pecan pie is for amatuers. and chechens. in ther words people like you.

ok basayevp-)

[Metastaz]

Russian gear seemingly works well.
Just not for Arabs.
We'll have to wait and see with the Persians...
Arabs seems to have a different anatomy. SU specialists who worked with them often said their arms are growing from the ass. :lol:

[TR1]

ok basayevp-)

damn u nagant.
damn you to hell
you know too much.

[TR1]

Arabs seems to have a different anatomy. SU specialists who worked with them often said their arms are growing from the ass. :lol:

many times the Arabs refused to follow Soviet procedure, to take hints from Soviet advisers, and to take into account Soviet inteligence findings.

[sferrin]

many times the Arabs refused to follow Soviet procedure, to take hints from Soviet advisers, and to take into account Soviet inteligence findings.

That's cuz Saddam knows best ;)

[Thor]

Seing is believing when it comes to unknown russian equipment

Sometimes it's better than they say, sometimes it's far worse than they say. Maskirovka.

[Flamming_Python]

Seing is believing when it comes to unknown russian equipment

Sometimes it's better than they say, sometimes it's far worse than they say. Maskirovka.

That applies to any equipment, Russian or otherwise.

[-DarthMaul-]

I love it how the current admin. voiced concern over the sales of Air Defense weaponary :)

[Metastaz]

That's cuz Saddam knows best ;)
How to handle Iraq?
Oh yeah.

[-DarthMaul-]

Arabs seems to have a different anatomy. SU specialists who worked with them often said their arms are growing from the ass. :lol:

Well they have western arms now..so..well they havent tested them out in any war yet, I wonder how effective Saudi and Egypt are in thier Abrams, or FFalcons and Eagles.

btw..SU specialists??(can you tell me what they are?)

[Canuck Farrier]

Yep.....




Link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merkava

Thanks ,I wasnt quite sure,but I bet they wish they had the Abrams series now eh.!you yanks build dam good tanks lately.

[Kilgor]

I love it how the current admin. voiced concern over the sales of Air Defense weaponary :)

Would ABM sites in poland qualify too :)?

[sferrin]

How to handle Iraq?
Oh yeah.

Yeah he sure knew how to run his military too didn't he? I know Desert Storm was a raging success for him as were his brilliant tactics during Iraqi Freedom. Not quite sure what he thinks he's going to achieve from the inside of a prision cell but I'm sure when he does it we'll all be left speechless :roll:

[sferrin]

Thanks ,I wasnt quite sure,but I bet they wish they had the Abrams series now eh.!you yanks build dam good tanks lately.

Lately? Abrams is almost 30 years old.

[Rictor]

Russian gear seemingly works well.

Just not for Arabs.


Dude, nothing works for the Arabs. No offence to them, but freaking death-rays wouldn't make a difference. Saudi Arabia has M1A2s, Apaches, Challenger 2s, Leclercs and F-15s and can't even pilot them. They lost time and time again to Israel, despite superior numbers and more-or-less equal technology. The only relative successes of Arab militaries that I can recall have been when they have imposed a distinctly un-Arab structure on its military and tried to suppress their Arab way of doing things.

Now Persians are a whole other deal. Iran has, under US sanctions and short on money, built up a domestic industry un-parralled in the Arab world. They;ll be making indigineous Tor-M1s in a decade or less. America better be praying they don't have S-300s sitting in reserve, because I fully believe that Iran is capable of using them to their full effectiveness.

Maybe Putin will now decide "You know what, if I keep getting blamed for all this bad ****, poisoning people left and right, maybe I really should start acting like the bad guy they all take me for. Here Iran, have all the S-300s you want."
;);)

[Metastaz]

Well they have western arms now..so..well they havent tested them out in any war yet, I wonder how effective Saudi and Egypt are in thier Abrams, or FFalcons and Eagles.
Man, I have read about situations in some arab army (Siryan? Egypt? Can't remember) right before another war with Israel. And all I can tell - if you put military uniform on a herd of monkeys and arm them with the state-of-the-art weaponry, they still remain a herd of monkeys. They won't turn into real army.

P.S. I'm not racist. ;)



btw..SU specialists??(can you tell me what they are?)Soviet Union helped monkeys a lot. It's a shame.

[Alan]

Russian gear seemingly works well.

Just not for Arabs.

We'll have to wait and see with the Persians...


Can somebody please tell me what gear does work well for arabs?

Aside from bombs anyway.

They havn't won a modern war... um, ever.

[Metastaz]

Yeah he sure knew how to run his military too didn't he? I know Desert Storm was a raging success for him as were his brilliant tactics during Iraqi Freedom. Not quite sure what he thinks he's going to achieve from the inside of a prision cell but I'm sure when he does it we'll all be left speechless :roll:It's not a honor for Mike Tyson to win a fight with the toddler.

P.S. Maybe it's a good idea to return Saddam to power and pay him reparation in exchange for restoring law and order in Iraq?
It's clear now USA can win fight with pathetic arab military, but not with today's chaos and anarchy.

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

Seems like any time someone uses Russian stuff in a conflict though it's "they didn't know how to use it correctly".I noticed Hezbollah seemed to have no problems using the Kornet recently.

[Flamming_Python]

I noticed Hezbollah seemed to have no problems using the Kornet recently.

The arabs may not have much effectiveness in conventional warfare. But they are getting increasingly good in guerilla warfare it seems.

[Flamming_Python]

Would ABM sites in poland qualify too :)?

ABM is something that threatens MAD, and therefore increases the possibility of thermonuclear warfare.

EDIT: Sorry for double post

[sir-chimp]

ABM is something that threatens MAD, and therefore increases the possibility of thermonuclear warfare.
EDIT: Sorry for double post

Unlike the ABM's the Russians already possess

Or unlike the nuclear knowledge, technology, and know how supplied by Russia to the admiral akbar kill all the jews blah blah blah tiny *****ed iranian government

besides big ***** putin already came out and said something to the effect blah blah blah our new icbms have magical maneuver ability and make the US ABM system ineffective. So russia obviously has nothing to worry about.

[Flamming_Python]

Unlike the ABM's the Russians already possess

Or unlike the nuclear knowledge, technology, and know how supplied by Russia to the admiral akbar kill all the jews blah blah blah tiny *****ed iranian government

besides big ***** putin already came out and said something to the effect blah blah blah our new icbms have magical maneuver ability and make the US ABM system ineffective. So russia obviously has nothing to worry about.

True we don't. I personally don't get all this "hu-ha" that has come out as a result of the ABM missile shield in Eastern Europe. Now if they increased it's capabilities by lets say x50, then i'll be worried.

[sferrin]

I noticed Hezbollah seemed to have no problems using the Kornet recently.

There are always exceptions to the rule. And an antitank missile is just a tad lower on the complexity scale than an IADS.

[sferrin]

It's not a honor for Mike Tyson to win a fight with the toddler.


I can see the point sailed over your head like an SR-71. Saddam never let his generals (or the military for that matter) do their jobs. He had to micromanage Iraq into defeat.






P.S. Maybe it's a good idea to return Saddam to power and pay him reparation in exchange for restoring law and order in Iraq?
It's clear now USA can win fight with pathetic arab military, but not with today's chaos and anarchy.



Sadly, it appears the only thing the Iraqis as a whole understand is an iron fist upside the head. Reminds me of kids who won't behave unless they're beat within an inch of their lives, have to be watched 24/7, and end up in prison.

[Flamming_Python]

I can see the point sailed over your head like an SR-71. Saddam never let his generals (or the military for that matter) do their jobs. He had to micromanage Iraq into defeat.

Sadly, it appears the only thing the Iraqis as a whole understand is an iron fist upside the head. Reminds me of kids who won't behave unless they're beat within an inch of their lives, have to be watched 24/7, and end up in prison.

During the 60's, there was a growing Socialist movement in Iraq, which included many people from all the different tribes, religious groups, etc...

The party was secular, based on equal rights, and didn't advocate authoritarian policies like in the Soviet Union.

However, Saddam and the Ba'athist party managed to sieze control, and destroy the socialist movement completly, as well as any other threats to power.

The actual Islamic threat, didn't really develop in the arabic world until a couple of decades later, when it first appeared in public during the Iranian Islamic Revolution.

I therefore blame such ideologies, which arose because of the dis-illusionment of the Iraqi population (as well as other Arabic populations) with the corrupt and dictatorial rulers of their countries, rather than some 'racist' ideal about arabs only understanding 'Iron Fists'.

The whole Islamic ideology rose to power, because of the dislike towards authoritarianism and corruption in the first place. As those type of leaders were often supported by the West, the arabs also started to hate the West as well.

Perhaps you can blame the arabs for shifting too far to the extreme, the same way you could blame the Germans for shifting too far to the extreme in the 30's (both extremes arose out of dis-illusionment). But attempting to blame it on the Arabic race itself, is simply stupid.

Likewise, you cannot blame the Islamic religion any more, than you can blame the German race. Both Islamism and Nazism were centred around their own religion and race respectively. But that doesn't mean that their race and religion were inherently bad or 'evil'.

[Cedan]

arabic race? german race? how do they differ from each other, other than their skin colour? humans are humans, only with cultural differences

[Kilgor]

ABM is something that threatens MAD, and therefore increases the possibility of thermonuclear warfare.

EDIT: Sorry for double post

and arming the mad mullahs does not ?

[Metastaz]

I can see the point sailed over your head like an SR-71. Saddam never let his generals (or the military for that matter) do their jobs. He had to micromanage Iraq into defeat.
AFAIK, Iraq was defeated because one of iraq's top dogs sold himself to US. So, actually Saddam trusted to his generals too much.



Sadly, it appears the only thing the Iraqis as a whole understand is an iron fist upside the head. Reminds me of kids who won't behave unless they're beat within an inch of their lives, have to be watched 24/7, and end up in prison.
So much for "we liberate poor iraqis from cruel tyrant" BS.
Ok, try your "iron fist" tactics. But don't forget to stock up with zinc uniform first, Democracy and Freedom carriers!




arabic race? german race? how do they differ from each other, other than their skin colour? humans are humans, only with cultural differences
First, don't mix race with ethnic nationality.
Second, the main difference is mentality and culture - i.e. what's in the head.
Germans are good soldiers, arabs are very bad ones, for example.

[GazB]

Russia can sell its weapons to anyone it likes.
The US would moan if they were selling chocolate to the Iranians because the US just doesn't like Iran without a government they have created/supported in power there.
The iranians themselves don't like the Russians much more than they like the Americans. When the US tries to attack the iranians all the moderates and those few that actually oppose their current government will unite against the US. Even with all its airpower I very much doubt the US could completely destroy the Iranian nuclear infrastructure. The iranians haven't been asleep for the past 40 years. They saw the Israelis attack the Iraqi nuclear reactor. If the Iranians do have a nuclear weapons program it will be dispersed and duplicated and very secret. One or even several strikes will not be enough to end it... in fact one or two strikes will likely accelerate or create it if it doesn't currently exist.

A few Tors will not stop an air attack but will make the attack more costly than it would otherwise have been. Especially if they are given time to get to exercise with them and train on them and integrate them into their tactics.
Would be interesting to see how it performs with HAWKs and F-14s and Mig-29s.

[Metastaz]

The iranians themselves don't like the Russians much more than they like the Americans.
Pure BS.
Iranians hate USA and call it Big Satan.
As for Russia, it always was arab's and persian's ally.

[Flamming_Python]

Pure BS.
Iranians hate USA and call it Big Satan.
As for Russia, it always was arab's and persian's ally.

I don't know about Iran, but Islamic extremists at least, see Russia as a weaker and less 'evil' part of the West.

What a bunch of idiots...

[Canuck Farrier]

They must like them enough to buy weapons from them.There is plenty of places to buy weapons besides Russia.

[Metastaz]

I don't know about Iran, but Islamic extremists at least, see Russia as a weaker and less 'evil' part of the West. I'll reveal to you most stunning secret in the world - not all muslims are Islamic extremists.




They must like them enough to buy weapons from them.There is plenty of places to buy weapons besides Russia. There's not a plenty of spaces to buy high-grade modern weapons besides Russia!

[Morboute]

I'll reveal to you most stunning secret in the world - not all muslims are Islamic extremists.



WHAT?!?!?! Lie's i tell you, LIES!!! everyone knows all muslims are extremists and have bombbelts on them! :lol:


and i really dont see the problem here, its a defensive weapon they are selling.

[Metastaz]

need to add smile so even the dumb can see the sarcasm
You can add million smiles with size of watermelon, like this one:
http://www.israel-forum.org/images/smilies/2/mega.gif

But any average statistical american will be sure you're telling the truth.
Proof: last story about t-shirt with arab inscription in airport.

[Flamming_Python]

I'll reveal to you most stunning secret in the world - not all muslims are Islamic extremists.


I know that perfectly well. But an active minority does cause problems.

[white_raven0]

It's better than nothing but won't be very effective against a modern force. Only a multi-tiered system of Long, Medium, Short, Close In systems that are supported by effective command and control can defend against a well planned modern air attack.

However this may be enough to defend certain important places from surgical precision strike with a few planes or cruise missile.

[Kap2406]

According to Russia's Defense Ministry more than half of Tor-M1 systems has been delivered to Iranian armed forces.
http://newsru.com/russia/02jan2007/or.html

[GazB]

Pure BS.
Iranians hate USA and call it Big Satan.
As for Russia, it always was arab's and persian's ally.

Even when Iran was supporting Mujahideen forces opposing the Soviets in Afghanistan? Apart from a new deal on transport aircraft, an upgrade for the Mig-29s the Iraqis flew to Iran, a few Su-25s, and the Su-24s also flown to Iran by Iraqis the Iranians operate very few Soviet aircraft types. Most of their airforce is US based... F-5s, F-4s, F-14s...
SAMs are largely western too or Chinese, with HAWKs and Chinese knockoffs of Soviet gear like Strelas.

[XShipRider]

People point to the '91 Gulf War when they mention Russian SAMs as
ineffective or incapable. The one thing they forget to mention is that
Saddam didn't use any type of layered defense. He had no air cap
to fight through (for good reason) so the SAMs could be used as
intended - batting cleanup.

SAMs are not intended to repel an entire invading force. They're part of
a layered defense. They're supposed to be employed on the few
remaining, if everything works according to your defensive plan, on the
leftovers missed by your defensive air cap. One look at how SAMs are
employed from a carrier group demonstrates this tactic.

Baghdad in January of '91 looked like an old WWII movie. I mean c'mon -
tracers against modern fighter/bombers..? That was the defensive plan?
I'm sure the Russians were a bit ticked because Saddam didn't put up
any sort of coordinated defense. Well, okay.. He couldn't because most
of it was destroyed in the first few hours. But that aside..

Getting back to SAMs - every single pilot interview where a SAM was ever
employed has the pilot explaining just how tight his sphincter was during
the terminal phase of the encounter. They weren't concerned with the
manufacturer of same at that point in time, survival was the name of the
game.

SAMs from any nation don't necessarily have to hit anything. They can get
close enough to cause damage taking the aggressor out of the fight. They
don't even have to do that. Causing enough distraction to scrub or abort
the mission is also successful employment. Causing the attacker to miss
the intended high value target can be chalked up a success.

The US stopped U2 flights over the Soviet Union after Gary Powers did his
swan dive from 70K feet. The deterrent power of SAMs is evident.

The sale of these items to Iran has the causal effect of increased or
amended US planning (or Israeli for that matter). This in itself makes
the purchase worthwhile as far as the Iranians are concerned.

[GazB]

Regarding the point about SAMs all the SAMs Saddam used, SA-6, SA-2, and SA-3 as well as SA-7 and SA-14 were all compromised systems that the west had learned how to defeat, either through Vietnam or the wars in the ME.
Tactics were already practised, jamming pods and electronic equipment was already developed and in service.
Now if Saddam had had SA-10s, SA-11s, SA-12s and SA-15s things might have been a little different, but he would also have needed better fighters and more fighters.
He didn't just take on the US, he was fighting a coalition that basically consisted of most of the world there.