Cop shooting leaves man dead on his wedding day

[Secret Squirrel]

Officers shot three men who had just left a bachelor party held at a Queens strip club early Saturday morning, leaving the groom dead on the day of his wedding, said police, witnesses and relatives.

The shooting happened just after 4 a.m. around 143-39 95th Ave. in the Jamaica section of Queens, near Club Kalua, said Officer Kathleen Price, a police department spokeswoman.

It was not immediately clear what provoked the shooting, but the incident drew outcry from community leaders and family who demanded answers about how it happened. Paul Browne, chief spokesman for the New York Police Department, declined comment Saturday morning.

The man who died was taken to Jamaica Hospital Medical Center, said Sgt. Mike Wysokowski, another spokesman. The other two were taken to Mary Immaculate Hospital nearby, with one in critical condition and the other stable. The three men ranged in age from 23 to 31 years old.


Relatives said the dead groom was Sean Bell, 23, a father of two.

Robert Porter, who identified himself as Bell's first cousin, said he was supposed to be a DJ at the wedding. He said about 250 people were invited to the ceremony and were flying in from all over the country.

"I can't really express myself. It's a numb feeling," Porter said. "I still don't want to believe it, a beautiful day like this, and he was going to have a beautiful wedding, he was going to live forever with his wife and children. And this happened."

There were no reports that any officers were wounded in the incident. As many as eight officers may have been involved, but it was not immediately clear what roles each played, Wysokowski said.

Denise Ford, who said her son was one of the surviving shooting victims, said the men's car hit an unmarked police vehicle. Two cars inside a large area covered by police officers Saturday morning appeared damaged. But police on Saturday did not immediately confirm that one of them was an unmarked department car.

"All I know, they was celebrating," Ford told reporters at the scene Saturday morning. "The guy was getting married today."

Abraham Kamara, 38, who lives on Liverpool Street a few blocks from where the shooting occurred, said he was getting ready for work at about 4 a.m. when he heard gunfire.

"First it was like four shots," he said. "And then it was like pop-pop-pop like 12 times."

He hesitated for a few minutes before going outside until he saw a swarm of police cars and a police helicopter converge on his street.

Roy Brown, who said he works as a photographer at the club, said that not long after the men left the club, police sirens filled the air, and Brown and others emerged to learn the three had been shot.

"They weren't rowdy or nothing like that," said Brown, 57, of Queens, who said he knew some of the men's relatives. "This is ugly what happened."

The Rev. Al Sharpton went to Jamaica Hospital on Saturday after a request from Bell's family. At a news conference there, Sharpton stood with about two dozen members of Bell's and his fiancee's family, calling on police to give "real answers" about the shooting.

"I will stand with this family," he said. "This stinks. Something about the story being told did not seem right."

Sharpton said he intends to probe the circumstances surrounding the shooting and whatever justification the police might give for it. "This family deserves answers, deserves justice, and we intend to stand with them to get it," he said.

Sharpton said Bell and his fiancee had two children, one 3 years old and the other 5 months old.

Police had cordoned off more than a block in the largely residential neighborhood of the shooting Saturday. A message seeking comment was left at a phone number listed for the club.

link (http://www.nydailynews.com/front/breaking_news/story/474579p-399218c.html)

wrong place, wrong time? Maybe, assuming it was an unmarked car, they were on a sting or something?

[dj_1911]

It's sad how many people die like this because they're drunk or just acting stupid...:|

[kinsella]

well, now that the Rev. Al Sharpton is involved, im sure we will get it all straightened out in no time.

i feel for the birde and the famlies though.

[CG51]

wrong place, wrong time? Maybe, assuming it was an unmarked car, they were on a sting or something?

Well, given the limited details, that would be a pretty good guess. Cop car got rammed and they freaked out? Should be interesting to see the details.

[Bombtrack]

Sounds like one hell of a bachelor party

[tomonator]

OH wait Al Sharpton is involved. It couldn't have been the victims fault.

[LaoSexMachine]

Aren't guns illegal in the NYC area?

[jedisponge]

Aren't guns illegal in the NYC area?
Uh... what does that have to do with anything?

[California Joe]

Wow, another cop shooting thread with almost no details for everyone to start speculating about and airing all their anti cop grievances because they got a ticket once. Gee these sure are fun. Can't we all just go back to speculating about who's the toughest Special Forces in the world?

[kaspur_eh]

The story isn't worth reporting unless they know the circumstances. But I assume it went something like this.

Drunk guys hit cop car.
Drunk guys get out of car rowdy.
Cops order drunk guys to ground.
Drunk guys become agressive, resist.
Drunk guy reaches for something in jacket or car.
Bang, dead. Better luck next time.

I predict it is justified.

[CG51]

woot case solved p-)

[LaoSexMachine]

Uh... what does that have to do with anything?

It's just a question.

[kinsella]

Wow, another cop shooting thread with almost no details for everyone to start speculating about and airing all their anti cop grievances because they got a ticket once. Gee these sure are fun. Can't we all just go back to speculating about who's the toughest Special Forces in the world?

its made it 2 hours so far..........p-)

[Midav]

Let's first find out what happend before giving on an opinion :)

[Bombtrack]

JTF2 is better than the SAS

[mudbunny]

There are absolutly no details in that story, so who the hell knows what happened.

[Digital Marine]

Messed up, wonder what happened. Police Officers do not open fire for nothing.

[gaijinsamurai]

What's the best sniper rifle in the world?

[kosse]

What's the best sniper rifle in the world?
I don't know but I think we all agree that Simo Häyhä is the number 1. undisputed sniper champion in the world. He killed over 500 soviets if you did not know.

[California Joe]

Well I just watched Full Metal Jacket again with my son and apparently the best sniper rifle in the world is the AK-47. Too bad Simo didn't have one. As for this unfortunate incident. Someone, maybe both parties really screwed the pooch on this one. The fact that the dead guy was supposed to get married is irrelevant. Maybe he should have stayed home. Kaspurs post is pretty accurate except add "smelling like stripper pussy" to everything that says "Drunk guys"

[Bioya]

Well I just watched Full Metal Jacket again with my son and apparently the best sniper rifle in the world is the AK-47. Too bad Simo didn't have one....

She uses a VZ58, not an AK. :P

[gaijinsamurai]

Yeah, you're right, Bioya! I thought it was an AK myself, then I read somewhere on this forum that it was the Czech rifle, then watched the movie again to see for myself. Sure enough.

[California Joe]

Really? Damn, I saw the silhouette and started assuming....Now I have to ban you. How dare you. p-)

I believe the correct rifle should have been the M91/30 though :)

Et tu gaijin?

[exarmyguard]

The groom would have asked to be shot about 5 years into the marriage. I know I did with mine. :roll:

[tomonator]

Let's first find out what happend before giving on an opinion :)
What fun would that be.

[baker company]

A little more info:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/6184948.stm

Fifty shots fired according to this. One of the passengers hit eleven times. I've got nothing against cops but right now it would appear the officers got a bit carried away.

[Hollis]

A little more info:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/6184948.stm

Fifty shots fired according to this. One of the passengers hit eleven times. I've got nothing against cops but right now it would appear the officers got a bit carried away.

NO they did not, It is normal, If you shoot, you shoot to kill so one shot is the same as many. WHY? a wounded person can kill you too. There is much more to this why people keep on firing than I will explain. Cops are no different than any one else, they also want to go home to their love ones.

Also no one can read the future, People have to act on what they know at the time, the future can prove them right or wrong....... and as time progress' that can even change.

[Friendly Fire]

NO they did not, It is normal, If you shoot, you shoot to kill so one shot is the same as many. WHY? a wounded person can kill you too. There is much more to this why people keep on firing than I will explain. Cops are no different than any one else, they also want to go home to their love ones.

Also no one can read the future, People have to act on what they know at the time, the future can prove them right or wrong....... and as time progress' that can even change.


Fifty Shots...

Hollis, that's a "Carton"! And with no visible weaponery displayed around by the Groom and his mates?

[Hollis]

There are absolutly no details in that story, so who the hell knows what happened.


Friendly Fire, you should re-read Mudbunny's statement.

Do you know more, have you read the report of the investigation? Have you ever been in a similar type of situation? Are you a LEO in the US? What other great insight does your crystal ball gives you?

My reply was on speculating why the number of rounds where fired. Do you know how many Officers where there, how many re-loads IF ANY? Maybe google on how to stop shooting when it starts, there is a lot on information on the human nature to continue to shoot when one migh conclude it is not needed to do so. Most LE Agencies deal with this in training. Reason because of the public perceptions like yours.

I guess when the report comes out, we will know more until then I prefer to assume the Officers acted properly. You can assume what ever you want all the way to they were just a bunch of untrained homicidal maniacs looking for some poor innocent person to waste.

[sir-chimp]

I wonder how many Internal Affairs Units of Police Departments around the country are aware of the great wealth of experts on the internet who are able to determine foul play with out having any access to facts, witnesses, physical evidence, the officers who were involved themselves, and no prior or current police training or experience on their part.

I'm telling you Cities and Municipalities across the county could save millions.

[Noble713]

Some highlights from CNN: http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/11/26/nyc.shooting.ap/index.html



At a news conference Saturday, [New York Police Commissioner] Kelly said the department was still piecing together what happened, and that it was too early to say whether the shooting was justified.
The car, driven by Bell, was struck by 21 of the police bullets after the vehicle rammed an undercover officer and hit an unmarked NYPD minivan. Other shots hit nearby homes and shattered windows at a train station, though no one else was injured.
Police thought one of the men in the car might have had a gun but investigators found no weapons. It was unclear what prompted police to open fire, Kelly said. It was also not clear whether the shooters had identified themselves as police, Kelly said.
Kelly said the confrontation stemmed from an undercover operation inside the strip club in the Jamaica section of Queens.
Seven officers in plain clothes were investigating the Kalua Cabaret; five of them were involved in the shooting.
According to Kelly, the groom was involved in a verbal dispute outside the club and one of his friends made a reference to a gun. An undercover officer walked closely behind Bell and his friends as they headed for their car. As he walked toward the front of the vehicle, the car drove forward -- striking the officer and a nearby undercover police vehicle, Kelly said.
The officer who had followed the group on foot was apparently the first to open fire, Kelly said. That officer had served on the force for five years. One 12-year veteran fired his weapon 31 times, emptying two full magazines, Kelly said.
Bell backed the car onto a sidewalk, hitting a building gate, authorities said. He then drove forward, striking the police vehicle a second time, Kelly said.
The police department's policy on shooting at moving vehicles states: "Police officers shall not discharge their firearms at or from a moving vehicle unless deadly force is being used against the police officers or another person present, by means other than a moving vehicle."


Oops....

[Paul in Saudi2]

More facts are coming out.

No gun in the car. At least 40 shots fired, only 21 accounted for. The others went someplace. We can only pray nobody else was hurt. The police are making few statements. The Union seems to have nothing much to say. The usual Law-and-Order types are keeping mum.

NYPD policy prohibits shooting at a car. A car accident is not considered something you shoot for.

Looks like a bad shooting.

[kinsella]

Some highlights from CNN: http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/11/26/nyc.shooting.ap/index.html




Oops....
The police department's policy on shooting at moving vehicles states: "Police officers shall not discharge their firearms at or from a moving vehicle unless deadly force is being used against the police officers or another person present, by means other than a moving vehicle."


so if your a bad guy, just jump in your car and aim at the po po.....they cant shoot at you...that sucks for the cops, a car is a deadly weapon.

looks like the cops may have been a little over active on this one. also sounds like the guy was drunk and pissed. maybe he wouldnt hve been shot if he had not tried to run someone over.

[Hollis]

The police department's policy on shooting at moving vehicles states: "Police officers shall not discharge their firearms at or from a moving vehicle unless deadly force is being used against the police officers or another person present, by means other than a moving vehicle."


so if your a bad guy, just jump in your car and aim at the po po.....they cant shoot at you...that sucks for the cops, a car is a deadly weapon.

looks like the cops may have been a little over active on this one. also sounds like the guy was drunk and pissed. maybe he wouldnt hve been shot if he had not tried to run someone over.


Good point, Noble missed that one. I guess we will get more news later. Doesn't make much sense at this point.

[Friendly Fire]

Friendly Fire, you should re-read Mudbunny's statement.

Do you know more, have you read the report of the investigation? Have you ever been in a similar type of situation? Are you a LEO in the US? What other great insight does your crystal ball gives you?

My reply was on speculating why the number of rounds where fired. Do you know how many Officers where there, how many re-loads IF ANY? Maybe google on how to stop shooting when it starts, there is a lot on information on the human nature to continue to shoot when one migh conclude it is not needed to do so. Most LE Agencies deal with this in training. Reason because of the public perceptions like yours.

I guess when the report comes out, we will know more until then I prefer to assume the Officers acted properly. You can assume what ever you want all the way to they were just a bunch of untrained homicidal maniacs looking for some poor innocent person to waste.

Actually we had recently a mad Neo-nazi that went berserk and was armed with hunting rifle (FN semi) in Anvers/Antwerp shooting to what seemed foreigners...

A local cop fired 4 bullets including a warning shot and didn't killed him but still managed to incapacitate him! So you tell me what the hell went on! LE agencies deal with these **** that way (seems to me not only the groom was drunk). Human nature...and professionnal skills are supposed to balance out!

And as for googling, meh If you had seen what i've seen and done what i've done you probably wouldn't tell this to me but probably back off. When assholes started "fun" firefights in Tirana or Vlora there was no "police to stop them" and rounds were flying low. Those were my best games of dodge ball ever.

[Zerodivider]

NO they did not, It is normal, If you shoot, you shoot to kill so one shot is the same as many. WHY? a wounded person can kill you too. There is much more to this why people keep on firing than I will explain. Cops are no different than any one else, they also want to go home to their love ones. .

Strange... cops in other countries (e.g. Germany) manage to just wound the suspect most of the time - never heard of a bullet hail... ;)

[Paul in Saudi2]

They fired between 40 and 50 shots. Only 21 seem to have hit the car. These shooters were incapable of hitting a target of any sort. The are open to criticism on the grounds of poor marksmanship if nothing else.

[Hiroshima]

From the Washington post article, apparently a cop was hit by the car... Now whether the car was mobile after the other cops started shooting might account for the low accuracy...

[sir-chimp]

Actually we had recently a mad Neo-nazi that went berserk and was armed with hunting rifle (FN semi) in Anvers/Antwerp shooting to what seemed foreigners...

A local cop fired 4 bullets including a warning shot and didn't killed him but still managed to incapacitate him! So you tell me what the hell went on! LE agencies deal with these **** that way (seems to me not only the groom was drunk). Human nature...and professionnal skills are supposed to balance out!

And as for googling, meh If you had seen what i've seen and done what i've done you probably wouldn't tell this to me but probably back off. When assholes started "fun" firefights in Tirana or Vlora there was no "police to stop them" and rounds were flying low. Those were my best games of dodge ball ever.



That cop made two mistakes

1. he fired a "warning" shot

2. he didnt kill the bastard


on a side note there rambo Halo on your XBox does not count as having been in a fire fight.

[Fiber]

I was listening to BBC radio yesterday and they interviewed an expert. Some ex-cop. He said the police were allowed to open fire if someones life was in danger. That included someone trying to run you over with a car. Maybe there are some NYC specific rules he was not aware of.

He was certain that if anyone would be able to get to the bottom of this it would be the NYPD internal affairs as they are, according to him, top of the line.

[Roy Batty]

Reports here on CTV say that one cop was responsible for firing 31 of the more than 50 rounds fired.He had to reload.

[HR24]

Some more news on it.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,232079,00.html



New Details Emerge in Deadly Shooting of Groom on Wedding Day
Monday, November 27, 2006

AP


NEW YORK — A young groom was caught in the crossfire of an undercover cop, whose bullets ripped through his car, and confused officers who returned their own blistering barrage, sources told The Post Sunday.

The blaze of gunfire lasted just 10 seconds outside the Kalua Cabaret strip club in Queens, N.Y., early Saturday. But it ended the life of 23-year-old, unarmed father Sean Bell, who was set to marry his high-school sweetheart and the mother of his two young daughters hours after his bachelor party at the club.

New details of the events include the undercover cop at one point climbing onto the hood of Bell's car — his gun drawn and his police shield around his neck — screaming, "Police! Turn off your car! Let me see your hands!" said sources who talked to some of the cops involved in the shooting.

When Bell then tried to run down the plainclothes officer — twice — the cop began shooting, with some of his 11 bullets piercing the rear window of the man's Nissan Altima, the sources said.

This left the cop's backup unit — which was just arriving on the scene amid shattering glass and the undercover's shouts of "He's got a gun!" — thinking they were being fired upon from inside the vehicle. That's when they returned fire with another 39 bullets. One 12-year veteran, a narcotics detective, pumped 31 bullets, authorities said.

(Story continues below)

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Police Shooting The sources recounted step-by-step how quickly things spiraled out of control after a dispute inside the club involving one of Bell's associates.

According to the sources, two undercovers were at the strip joint as part of the NYPD's new Club Enforcement Initiative. The program was started after the July slaying of 18-year-old Jennifer Moore of New Jersey, who partied at a New York club before being abducted, raped and killed in a Weehawken, N.J., hotel.

The undercovers, who usually worked in Manhattan, were on the last night of their two-month Queens detail to try to nail the Kalua and other clubs on such violations as drugs and underage prostitution.

Inside the club, one of the plainclothes cops sat next to a woman he thought was a hooker and might proposition him, the sources said.

Suddenly, a burly man approached them and told the woman that he had heard she had gotten into a fight with a group of guys earlier in the club. It was unclear what it was over.

The man said, "'Don't worry, baby, I got you covered,' and he takes her hand, and he rubs it across [the gun in] his waistband," a source said. "Then he tells her, 'That's what I'm here for.'"

It's unclear how the man smuggled his weapon past the metal detector outside the club. He likely was a regular who knew the bouncer at the door and may have worked there part time, helping with security, the sources said.

The undercover then went outside the club and radioed his backup to tell them there was a man inside with a gun. It was around 3:30 a.m.

While the undercover was outside, the suspect came out along with the girl and others, since it was around closing time.

The undercover watched as an argument erupted between Bell's group, which included three male pals and the beefy man with the gun, and four other men — with the woman in the middle of them, the sources said.

The woman was overheard saying to the men arguing with Bell's pals, "I'm not doing you all. I'll do one or two, but not all," according to the sources.

Around the same time, the undercover said he heard Bell's friend Joseph Guzman tell his buddies, "Yo, get my gun! Get my gun! Let's get my gun from the car! Yeah, we're gonna f- - - him up!" the sources said.

The undercover, thinking there was about to be a drive-by shooting in front of the club involving Bell's group, followed Guzman, Bell and two others to their car.

"It's getting hot! Something's going to happen! Something's going down!" the undercover radioed to his backup.

He hurried to the front of Bell's Altima, which was parked on the side of a nearby street, and jumped in front of it.

That's when the undercover put his right leg up on the hood of the Altima and began screaming that he was a cop, the sources said.

The cop was leaning over the hood of the car to try to see the hands of the people inside and make sure they didn't have any guns, they said. But Bell floored the gas pedal and headed for the cop, the sources said, striking him and badly cutting his knee.

One of the Altima's passengers — who possibly had a gun — jumped out of the back of the car, the sources said.

Around the same time, an unmarked Toyota Camry driven by a plainclothes police lieutenant and another cop behind him pulled up, but overshot Bell's car. A police van with an officer and the narcotics detective then managed to block Bell's car in.

Bell's Altima first struck the police van in the driver's desperate bid to escape, then backed up and struck the roll-down metal doors of a commercial building behind him. He then revved his car again toward the undercover — which prompted the cop to scream, "He's got a gun!" and start firing, according to the sources, with the bullets passing through Bell's car.

"The undercover thought they had more than one gun. He thought they would do anything to get away. He was yelling, 'Let me see your hands!'" one source said.

The other cops, thinking they were under attack, started firing at the car, too.

At one point, the detective thought his gun had jammed and so reloaded his magazine and emptied the clip again at the car, firing 31 bullets.

Bell was killed, Guzman critically injured, and a third friend, Trent Benefield, was shot. They are expected to live.

Benefield later told a friend from his hospital bed that he and his buddies didn't know the undercovers were cops.

He told investigators, "I got into the car, and there was all this shooting."

It was unclear when the other four men who were originally fighting with Bell and his pals fled the scene. They were spotted leaving in a black SUV.

Bell had been arrested three times in the past: twice for drugs and one on a gun rap in a case that was sealed. Guzman has been busted nine times, including for armed robbery. He spent two stretches in state prison in the '90s. Benefield has a sealed record as a juvenile for gun possession and robbery.

Some marijuana was later found near the Altima, and investigators believe that it may have been tossed out by the group before the gunfire. Two bullet casings also were recovered from the Altima, although cops said they do not believe they were from a police gun.

The shooting of Bell, who was black, has ignited racial tensions in the city — even though the cops involved included two blacks, a Hispanic and two whites.

The five cops who fired shots were put on administrative duty. Police Commissioner Ray Kelly said it was the first time that any of the officers were involved in a shooting.

Detectives Endowment Association President Michael Palladino said the cops were justified in firing off a total of 50 bullets at unarmed men because Bell was using his car as a lethal weapon.

"Once the threat ended, so did the shooting."

A source told The Post: "They [the cops] feel completely sad about what happened. They made a decision, and they're going to live with it."

Mayor Bloomberg spoke to Bell's fiancée Saturday after the shooting, sources said.

[Hollis]

Strange... cops in other countries (e.g. Germany) manage to just wound the suspect most of the time - never heard of a bullet hail... ;)


Well I guess you and friendly fire would just shoot the gun out of the bad guys hand. No wonder the US LEO have problems they are taught to shoot center of mass.

I think Roy Rogers and Gene Autry (some faves of mine) should offer a class on shooting the gun out of the bad guys hand.

[Zerodivider]

That's not what I said mate ;) . What gets me is the sheer amount of discharged rounds. In the present case it might have been justified in order to stop the car, but in other cases (like Amadou Diallo 1999) it seems a bit OTT to say the least.

[Hollis]

That's not what I said mate ;) . What gets me is the sheer amount of discharged rounds. In the present case it might have been justified in order to stop the car, but in other cases (like Amadou Diallo 1999) it seems a bit OTT to say the least.


Zero part of it is strange phenomena on training and there are plenty of discussion on it. How to stop firing once the shooting starts. It has to do with people's focus, how they interpret the situation and need to shoot. It has nothing to do with Hollywood BS on shooters. As I stated earlier I am not interested in finding or going into depth the mechanism of how to stop shooting.

If you google other shootings in the States, the numbers of round fired is not unusual. The reasons are complicated and not that simple to resolve. Also when most cops are more like roving secretaries rather than gun fighters it becomes difficult and nearly impossible to address considering all the elements.

Also keep in mind, the cops want to live too and not suffer a wound.

[California Joe]

Hollis is very polite. :)

This issue always comes up when people start assessing number shots fired as if there is some sort of correlation to the severity of the offense to the amount of bullets expended in any given situation. Once the shooting starts it becomes a life and death combat situation.

Policemen in this country are generally taught:

Aim for center mass.

Shoot till the threat is eliminated.

Period.

In a perfect world there would be no need for shooting reviews and only really bad guys with evil in their hearts would die in a hail of bullets. It is not a perfect world. Mistakes happen and those get compounded. This incident reads like a "what not to do" scenario. It's all based on perceptions.

Undercover cop approaches car, identifies himself, they either ignore him, don't believe him, or are too drunk to care. They somehow manage to try to run him down and hit the undercover van. He fires in an attempt to stop the vehicle. The backup squad hears shots and responds accordingly. They fire until the threat is neutralized. Any cries of racism are bullsh*t as 2 of the shooters were black and one was hispanic. Sounds to me like it was a clusterf*ck and all of the shooting was predicated on the first cop pulling the trigger. Whether he actually needed to or not is the question....

[Secret Squirrel]

another version;

Trini Wright, a dancer at the strip club where Bell's bachelor party was held, told the Daily News she was going to a diner with the men and was putting her makeup bag in the trunk of their car when the police minivan appeared.

"The minivan came around the corner and smashed into their car. And they (the police) jumped out shooting," Wright, 28, told the newspaper for Monday editions. "No 'stop.' No 'freeze.' No nothing."

Kelly had said Saturday the police department was still piecing together what happened and that it was too early to say whether the shooting was justified. He said it was unclear whether the officers, who were in plain clothes, identified themselves before firing.

On Sunday, Browne said, "We are continuing to look for additional witnesses to shed light on the incident and assisting the district attorney's office with its investigation."

link (http://edition.cnn.com/2006/US/11/27/nyc.shooting.ap/index.html)

it'll probably be awhile before it all gets sorted out.

[kinsella]

Trini Wright, a dancer at the strip club where Bell's bachelor party was held, told the Daily News she was going to a diner with the men and was putting her makeup bag in the trunk of their car when the police minivan appeared.

"The minivan came around the corner and smashed into their car. And they (the police) jumped out shooting," Wright, 28, told the newspaper for Monday editions. "No 'stop.' No 'freeze.' No nothing."

a stripper going to dinner with the guys. :roll:

she had her head in the trunk for gods sakes. she is going to be a fun witness.

any word on what the undercovers where looking for at the club? news said the club was under investigation. anyone seen what they were investigating?

[Secret Squirrel]

any word on what the undercovers where looking for at the club? news said the club was under investigation. anyone seen what they were investigating?

drugs, hookers, guns; basically any kind of violation. One more violation and the club is going to be shut down.

[Hollis]

a stripper going to dinner with the guys. :roll:

she had her head in the trunk for gods sakes. she is going to be a fun witness.

any word on what the undercovers where looking for at the club? news said the club was under investigation. anyone seen what they were investigating?


Interesting isn't it.

[HR24]

drugs, hookers, guns; basically any kind of violation. One more violation and the club is going to be shut down.

(+) selling alcohol to minors.

Glad I'm not the lead on this thing. All of the stories and bullshyte swirling around it makes a three-ring circus into a madhouse.

[akd]

Some more news on it.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,232079,00.html



New Details Emerge in Deadly Shooting of Groom on Wedding Day
Monday, November 27, 2006

AP


NEW YORK — A young groom was caught in the crossfire of an undercover cop, whose bullets ripped through his car, and confused officers who returned their own blistering barrage, sources told The Post Sunday.

The blaze of gunfire lasted just 10 seconds outside the Kalua Cabaret strip club in Queens, N.Y., early Saturday. But it ended the life of 23-year-old, unarmed father Sean Bell, who was set to marry his high-school sweetheart and the mother of his two young daughters hours after his bachelor party at the club.

New details of the events include the undercover cop at one point climbing onto the hood of Bell's car — his gun drawn and his police shield around his neck — screaming, "Police! Turn off your car! Let me see your hands!" said sources who talked to some of the cops involved in the shooting.

When Bell then tried to run down the plainclothes officer — twice — the cop began shooting, with some of his 11 bullets piercing the rear window of the man's Nissan Altima, the sources said.

This left the cop's backup unit — which was just arriving on the scene amid shattering glass and the undercover's shouts of "He's got a gun!" — thinking they were being fired upon from inside the vehicle. That's when they returned fire with another 39 bullets. One 12-year veteran, a narcotics detective, pumped 31 bullets, authorities said.

(Story continues below)

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Police Shooting The sources recounted step-by-step how quickly things spiraled out of control after a dispute inside the club involving one of Bell's associates.

According to the sources, two undercovers were at the strip joint as part of the NYPD's new Club Enforcement Initiative. The program was started after the July slaying of 18-year-old Jennifer Moore of New Jersey, who partied at a New York club before being abducted, raped and killed in a Weehawken, N.J., hotel.

The undercovers, who usually worked in Manhattan, were on the last night of their two-month Queens detail to try to nail the Kalua and other clubs on such violations as drugs and underage prostitution.

Inside the club, one of the plainclothes cops sat next to a woman he thought was a hooker and might proposition him, the sources said.

Suddenly, a burly man approached them and told the woman that he had heard she had gotten into a fight with a group of guys earlier in the club. It was unclear what it was over.

The man said, "'Don't worry, baby, I got you covered,' and he takes her hand, and he rubs it across [the gun in] his waistband," a source said. "Then he tells her, 'That's what I'm here for.'"

It's unclear how the man smuggled his weapon past the metal detector outside the club. He likely was a regular who knew the bouncer at the door and may have worked there part time, helping with security, the sources said.

The undercover then went outside the club and radioed his backup to tell them there was a man inside with a gun. It was around 3:30 a.m.

While the undercover was outside, the suspect came out along with the girl and others, since it was around closing time.

The undercover watched as an argument erupted between Bell's group, which included three male pals and the beefy man with the gun, and four other men — with the woman in the middle of them, the sources said.

The woman was overheard saying to the men arguing with Bell's pals, "I'm not doing you all. I'll do one or two, but not all," according to the sources.

Around the same time, the undercover said he heard Bell's friend Joseph Guzman tell his buddies, "Yo, get my gun! Get my gun! Let's get my gun from the car! Yeah, we're gonna f- - - him up!" the sources said.

The undercover, thinking there was about to be a drive-by shooting in front of the club involving Bell's group, followed Guzman, Bell and two others to their car.

"It's getting hot! Something's going to happen! Something's going down!" the undercover radioed to his backup.

He hurried to the front of Bell's Altima, which was parked on the side of a nearby street, and jumped in front of it.

That's when the undercover put his right leg up on the hood of the Altima and began screaming that he was a cop, the sources said.

The cop was leaning over the hood of the car to try to see the hands of the people inside and make sure they didn't have any guns, they said. But Bell floored the gas pedal and headed for the cop, the sources said, striking him and badly cutting his knee.

One of the Altima's passengers — who possibly had a gun — jumped out of the back of the car, the sources said.

Around the same time, an unmarked Toyota Camry driven by a plainclothes police lieutenant and another cop behind him pulled up, but overshot Bell's car. A police van with an officer and the narcotics detective then managed to block Bell's car in.

Bell's Altima first struck the police van in the driver's desperate bid to escape, then backed up and struck the roll-down metal doors of a commercial building behind him. He then revved his car again toward the undercover — which prompted the cop to scream, "He's got a gun!" and start firing, according to the sources, with the bullets passing through Bell's car.

"The undercover thought they had more than one gun. He thought they would do anything to get away. He was yelling, 'Let me see your hands!'" one source said.

The other cops, thinking they were under attack, started firing at the car, too.

At one point, the detective thought his gun had jammed and so reloaded his magazine and emptied the clip again at the car, firing 31 bullets.

Bell was killed, Guzman critically injured, and a third friend, Trent Benefield, was shot. They are expected to live.

Benefield later told a friend from his hospital bed that he and his buddies didn't know the undercovers were cops.

He told investigators, "I got into the car, and there was all this shooting."

It was unclear when the other four men who were originally fighting with Bell and his pals fled the scene. They were spotted leaving in a black SUV.

Bell had been arrested three times in the past: twice for drugs and one on a gun rap in a case that was sealed. Guzman has been busted nine times, including for armed robbery. He spent two stretches in state prison in the '90s. Benefield has a sealed record as a juvenile for gun possession and robbery.

Some marijuana was later found near the Altima, and investigators believe that it may have been tossed out by the group before the gunfire. Two bullet casings also were recovered from the Altima, although cops said they do not believe they were from a police gun.

The shooting of Bell, who was black, has ignited racial tensions in the city — even though the cops involved included two blacks, a Hispanic and two whites.

The five cops who fired shots were put on administrative duty. Police Commissioner Ray Kelly said it was the first time that any of the officers were involved in a shooting.

Detectives Endowment Association President Michael Palladino said the cops were justified in firing off a total of 50 bullets at unarmed men because Bell was using his car as a lethal weapon.

"Once the threat ended, so did the shooting."

A source told The Post: "They [the cops] feel completely sad about what happened. They made a decision, and they're going to live with it."

Mayor Bloomberg spoke to Bell's fiancée Saturday after the shooting, sources said.

Nice to see Mayor Bloomberg has already decided he will give his moral support to the "right" parties, while disingeniously supporting the Police Comissioner (but not the cops who risk their lives) and giving his expert opinion on law enforcment.



NEW YORK (AP) -- Mayor Michael Bloomberg said Monday he was "deeply disturbed" by the barrage of gunfire unleashed by officers in a weekend shooting that killed a groom on his wedding day.

"I can tell you that it is to me unacceptable or inexplicable how you can have 50-odd shots fired, but that's up to the investigation to find out what really happened," Bloomberg said after meeting with community leaders at City Hall.

Bloomberg was joined by Police Commissioner Ray Kelly, the Rev. Al Sharpton, Rep. Charles Rangel and several other officials at the meeting.

(Watch Mayor Bloomberg push for a grand jury probe (javascript:cnnVideo('play','/video/us/2006/11/27/sot.ny.groom.shooting.bloomberg.cony','2006/12/04');) http://i.a.cnn.net/cnn/.element/img/1.5/main/icon_video.gif (javascript:cnnVideo('play','javascript:cnnVideo('play','/video/us/2006/11/27/sot.ny.groom.shooting.bloomberg.cony','2006/12/04');','2006/11/27');))

Sharpton called it a "very candid, a very blunt meeting." He said the message to Bloomberg was: "This city must show moral outrage that 50 shots were fired on three unarmed men."

Bloomberg was steadfast in his support for Kelly, who has been denounced by some community leaders over the shooting.

"I think he's the best police commissioner the city has ever had," Bloomberg said. "Nobody takes this more seriously than Commissioner Kelly and I do."

Police fired an estimated 50 rounds at the groom, Sean Bell, 23, and two other unarmed men in a car early Saturday, hours before he was to have married the mother of his two children.

Five officers were placed on paid administrative leave and stripped of their guns, said Paul Browne, chief spokesman for the NYPD. Police and prosecutors promised a full investigation.

"This warrants an answer," Rangel said as he arrived for the meeting. "Not just to the families of those that were shot and killed but to the people of the city of New York."
'No justice, no peace!'

On Sunday, several hundred people held a vigil for Bell, some shouting "No justice, no peace!" and demanding Kelly's ouster. (Watch the crowd count down the number of shots fired (javascript:cnnVideo('play','/video/us/2006/11/26/snow.ny.shooting.cnn','2006/12/03');) http://i.a.cnn.net/cnn/.element/img/1.5/main/icon_video.gif (javascript:cnnVideo('play','javascript:cnnVideo('play','/video/us/2006/11/26/snow.ny.shooting.cnn','2006/12/03');','2006/11/27');))

Kelly has said police shot at the car after it drove forward and struck an undercover officer and an unmarked police minivan. The information was based on interviews with witnesses and two officers who did not fire their weapons, he said.

However, Trini Wright, a dancer at the strip club where Bell's bachelor party was held, told the Daily News she was going to a diner with the men and was putting her makeup bag in the trunk of their car when the police minivan appeared.

"The minivan came around the corner and smashed into their car. And they (the police) jumped out shooting," Wright, 28, told the newspaper for Monday editions. "No 'stop.' No 'freeze.' No nothing."

Kelly had said Saturday it was too early to say whether the shooting was justified. He said it was unclear whether the officers, who were in plain clothes, identified themselves before firing.

Bell's fiancee, Nicole Paultre, made a quiet visit to the site of his shootings before dawn Monday, lighting candles clustered around a photograph of the smiling couple with one of their daughters.
Pre-dawn shooting

The shootings occurred after 4 a.m. Saturday outside the Kalua Cabaret in Queens. Kelly said the confrontation stemmed from an undercover operation by seven officers investigating the club.

Bell was struck twice. Joseph Guzman, 31, was shot at least 11 times, and Trent Benefield, 23, was hit three times. Guzman was in critical condition Monday and Benefield was stable.

The officers' shots struck the men's car 21 times. They also hit nearby homes and shattered windows at a train station, though no residents were injured.

Police thought one of the men in the car might have had a gun, but investigators found no weapons. It was unclear what prompted police to open fire, Kelly said.

According to Kelly, the groom was involved in a verbal dispute outside the club, and one of his friends referred to a gun.

An undercover officer walked closely behind Bell and his friends as they headed for their car. As he walked toward the front of the vehicle, the car drove forward, striking the officer and minivan, Kelly said.

That officer was apparently the first to open fire, Kelly said. He had served on the force for five years. One 12-year veteran fired his weapon 31 times, emptying two full magazines, Kelly said.
No prior incidents for officers

It was the first time any of the officers, all of whom carried 9 mm handguns, had been involved in a shooting, he said.

At some point, Bell backed the car onto a sidewalk, hitting a building gate, police said. He then drove forward, striking the police vehicle a second time, Kelly said.

The department's policy prohibits shooting at moving vehicles states "unless deadly force is being used against the police officers or another person present, by means other than a moving vehicle."
This isn't the first time the NYPD has come under scrutiny over officer-involved shootings.

In 1999, police killed Amadou Diallo, an unarmed immigrant from Guinea in western Africa who was shot 19 times. The four officers in that case were acquitted of criminal charges.

And in 2003, Ousmane Zongo, a native of Burkina Faso in western Africa, was hit four times, twice in the back. In that case, one officer was convicted of criminally negligent homicide, but acquitted of the more serious charge of second-degree manslaughter.

Rangel said the latest shooting "reminds me of a tragedy that took place with Mr. Diallo. And we can't have that. We can't have that."

[HR24]

Rangel and Sharpton......Christ, talk about two media whores if there ever was.

[sir-chimp]

Oh come now you surely dont have a problem with "Go Shoot the Cops" Sharpton and "Race Card" Rangel? They only want whats best.....for themselves.

[California Joe]

"The woman was overheard saying to the men arguing with Bell's pals, "I'm not doing you all. I'll do one or two, but not all," according to the sources."

Quoted for reality.

[HR24]

Oh come now you surely dont have a problem with "Go Shoot the Cops" Sharpton and "Race Card" Rangel? They only want whats best.....for themselves.

LOL. Indeed. Not to go too far off topic here, but what happened to Sharpton getting stung by the Bureau taking bribes or dealing dope not too long ago? Was that ever resolved?

[kinsella]

LOL. Indeed. Not to go too far off topic here, but what happened to Sharpton getting stung by the Bureau taking bribes or dealing dope not too long ago? Was that ever resolved?

just goes to his street cred.........

[Durandal]

They fired between 40 and 50 shots. Only 21 seem to have hit the car. These shooters were incapable of hitting a target of any sort. The are open to criticism on the grounds of poor marksmanship if nothing else.

They are cops, not marksmen. People seem to forget that sometimes.

IF 8 officers are involved, then thats less than a mag for each. p-)

[Laconian]

Hollis is very polite. :)

This issue always comes up when people start assessing number shots fired as if there is some sort of correlation to the severity of the offense to the amount of bullets expended in any given situation. Once the shooting starts it becomes a life and death combat situation.

Policemen in this country are generally taught:

Aim for center mass.

Shoot till the threat is eliminated.

Period.

In a perfect world there would be no need for shooting reviews and only really bad guys with evil in their hearts would die in a hail of bullets. It is not a perfect world. Mistakes happen and those get compounded. This incident reads like a "what not to do" scenario. It's all based on perceptions.

Undercover cop approaches car, identifies himself, they either ignore him, don't believe him, or are too drunk to care. They somehow manage to try to run him down and hit the undercover van. He fires in an attempt to stop the vehicle. The backup squad hears shots and responds accordingly. They fire until the threat is neutralized. Any cries of racism are bullsh*t as 2 of the shooters were black and one was hispanic. Sounds to me like it was a clusterf*ck and all of the shooting was predicated on the first cop pulling the trigger. Whether he actually needed to or not is the question....

YES! YES! and YES!

How many rounds does it take to win a gun fight? However many it takes to make the bad man stop. It could be 1, 2, or 52.

The question is not how many rounds were fired. The question will be did the officers involved have a reasonable belief that their lives or the lives of another officer or civilan were in danger of death or serious bodily injury. Were their actions objectively reasonable based on what they knew at the time the incident took place? And could (not would) another officer based on the same information make the same reasonable conclusion. That's the legal standard.

Was SOP violated? Don't know. But you can have a legally justified shooting and still lose your job for violating policy.

[Paul in Saudi2]

Well now the mayor is calling the shooting "inexplicable," "unacceptable," and "excessive." But we know what a media whore he is. I guess.

The shooters' lawyer (from something called the Detective Endowment Association) has abandoned the idea that it was a righteous shooting.
“This was a tragedy, but not a crime,” he said. Another media whore I guess.

Of course then there is the race issue. At least to people on this board there is some sort of race issue. Other than non-white political people being involved, I see no racial issues at all.

The policy is not to keep shooting until the bad man stops (Who is the bad man here? Stop what? Breathing?) NYPD training calls for three shots, pause to see the situation, then more action.

Of course the witness was a hooker. (We have yet to see proof.) So we can ignore what she has to say. Heck she may have been nonwhite too! Can't trust her, she is not a trained observer!

My goodness. When will the truth get through? It was a mistake. The policemen were untrained and acting unlawfully.

[Bia]

Of course the witness was a hooker. Can't trust her, she is not a trained observer!

Stripper.... right?

I'm sure her eyes work as well as non strippers.

[California Joe]

Um.....OK.....

[Paul in Saudi2]

Yes, she was a stripper. Some posters have called her a hooker.

[kinsella]

Yes, she was a stripper. Some posters have called her a hooker.

she was overheard talkin about doin some of them, but not all. the club had prior citations for prositiuion. 1+1=hooker.

circumstantal indeed, but not a stretch in the least.

[Bia]

she was overheard talkin about doin some of them, but not all. the club had prior citations for prositiuion. 1+1=hooker

Overheard eh?

LMAO


Thanks for the insight.
The insight to never read your worthless views again.

[Paul in Saudi2]

A fallen woman! Can't believe her!

[kinsella]

Overheard eh?

LMAO


Thanks for the insight.
The insight to never read your worthless views again.

not saying she is not a viable witness, just commenting on the splitting of hairs on her job title. no matter what she does, she is a witness.

think i probably put that out there wrong.......:-(

[Hollis]

not saying she is not a viable witness, just commenting on the splitting of hairs on her job title. no matter what she does, she is a witness.

think i probably put that out there wrong.......:-(

what I find unsual, is that if you assume the cops screwed the pooch....... no problem. If you assume or lead some one to think your saying a witness may be less than honest........ bad.

Unless one is a part of the investigation, and even then it maybe questionable, none of us here will have a clue.

A shooting is a cops worse nightmare, not to mention the massive amounts of paper work, the endless going over that 0.1 sec time the decission is made to fire along with all the "preceived" facts prior the shooting.

We all, whether we are pro, con or indifferent, have the comfort of home to access what little information we can gleam from the media and come to earth shattering conclusions.

My favorite TV news statement is, "more at eleven"...

[Paul in Saudi2]

Amnesty International has called the shooting "part of a pattern of questionable police tactics and abuse."

The Commissioner has admitted the man who fired the first shot had been drinking.

The Detectives’ Endowment Association have criticized the mayor for his comments yesterday call the amount of force used excessive. As of this moment, there seems to be nothing on their web site supporting the shooting.

http://www.nycdetectives.org/

[California Joe]

What is your real opinion Paul? Just curious?

Amnesty International should probably be more worried about Darfur.

Undercover cops in strip bars drinking or simulating drinking....Hmmmmmmm

The Mayor should have shut up until he had someone to actually nail.

The number of shots fired is completely irrelevant.

The cops could be covering their asses. No matter what it doesn't look good. Especially for the guy who started shooting. But second guessing what they percieved during the altercation is bullsh*t. The criminal records of the victims don't suggest they are choirboys. The stripper was not going out for coffee with these guys, I don't care what she or they say. There was some kind of an issue with them and other patrons before the shooting started. How much had the victims had to drink? Did they try to run the cop down or not?

[sir-chimp]

Well Im certainly glad to know an esteemed organization such as Amnesty International chimed in with their opinion. Why just the other day I was saying to myself - you know I really do give a rats ass what those bunch of useless assholes think. Them and the NAACP.

[Paul in Saudi2]

Me? I just think it is time for a complete investigation.

They Commissioner did not say simulating drinking. He said the guy had had a drink. But as you pointed out he should have waited while the DA does his work. I suppose he is also a Media Whore.

Speaking of whores, I see you are still attacking the witnesses. Almost as if you wanted the investigation to go in a certain direction.


Good point about AI. Darn outsiders!

[sir-chimp]

Yeah darn outsiders!

[LRPV]

What is your real opinion Paul? Just curious?

Amnesty International should probably be more worried about Darfur.

Undercover cops in strip bars drinking or simulating drinking....Hmmmmmmm

The Mayor should have shut up until he had someone to actually nail.

The number of shots fired is completely irrelevant.

The cops could be covering their asses. No matter what it doesn't look good. Especially for the guy who started shooting. But second guessing what they percieved during the altercation is bullsh*t. The criminal records of the victims don't suggest they are choirboys. The stripper was not going out for coffee with these guys, I don't care what she or they say. There was some kind of an issue with them and other patrons before the shooting started. How much had the victims had to drink? Did they try to run the cop down or not?

I agree with all that you have written bar the statement that the number of shots fired is completely irrelevant. Don't American cops have to account for each round fired? (Police here need to fire aimed, deliberate shots. They may be rapid and numerous but they must be fired with justifiable need.) This was in a first world city with citizens about and at risk, not Anbar province. If the number of rounds can be justified, no problem, but I would be cautious about sweeping statements that the number of rounds fired is not an issue.

[LRPV]

Yeah darn outsiders!

NAACP? National Association Against Criminal Prosecution?

Seriously, is this like AI or environmentalists? Not a mob we have here that I have heard about.

[EsoognomEhT]

41 shots, and we'll take that ride
'Cross this bloody river to the other side
41 shots, cut through the night
You're kneeling over his body in the vestibule
Praying for his life

Well, is it a gun, is it a knife
Is it a wallet, this is your life
It ain't no secret (it ain't no secret)
It ain't no secret (it ain't no secret)
No secret my friend
You can get killed just for living in your American skin

p-)

[Johnny_H02]

Wow, another cop shooting thread with almost no details for everyone to start speculating about and airing all their anti cop grievances because they got a ticket once. Gee these sure are fun. Can't we all just go back to speculating about who's the toughest Special Forces in the world?

agreed we dont know what the hell happened.
I dont know enough to speculate, but I am skeptical.

That is enough from me though.

[Hollis]

Me? I just think it is time for a complete investigation.



What do you think is going on NOW? How long do you think it will take? Media will probably be the last to know, until them they are chomping at the bit for tid bit of info to feed all the chairborne judges out there.

[Laconian]

Here's why the number of shots fired is irrelevant: officers are trained to shoot to stop the threat. Stopping the threat may take one round. It may take 51. Shooting at someone in a moving car at night with a 9mm handguun is not easy. It is difficult from a marksmanship standpoint and a ballistic standpoint. Throw in combat stress' deterioration of fine & complex motor skills, effects on vision, etc. and marksmanship skills of the average officer go out the window.

[sir-chimp]

Laconian sir - every time I read your posts the word "bingo" comes to mind.

[Johnny_H02]

Here's why the number of shots fired is irrelevant: officers are trained to shoot to stop the threat. Stopping the threat may take one round. It may take 51. Shooting at someone in a moving car at night with a 9mm handguun is not easy. It is difficult from a marksmanship standpoint and a ballistic standpoint. Throw in combat stress' deterioration of fine & complex motor skills, effects on vision, etc. and marksmanship skills of the average officer go out the window.

maybe in the states, but I remember in Halifax, a few years ago a snow plow driver was shot while moving in his vehicle through the window and the officer only fired less then one magazine, it was reported there were only a few shots fired, so why did this officer empty a mag, reload and empty another? it seems irresponcible to unload that much ammunition in a condensed area where allot of other people are around, remember even armed suspects aside stray bullets and riccochets dont discriminate between criminal and bystander.

I am not taking a stance, and I am not going to start speculating as I have no police of fire arms training of my own to speak of, I am just trying to think it through as best I can.

[Paul in Saudi2]

Here's why the number of shots fired is irrelevant: officers are trained to shoot to stop the threat. Stopping the threat may take one round. It may take 51. Shooting at someone in a moving car at night with a 9mm handguun is not easy. It is difficult from a marksmanship standpoint and a ballistic standpoint. Throw in combat stress' deterioration of fine & complex motor skills, effects on vision, etc. and marksmanship skills of the average officer go out the window.


I understood, and correct me if I am wrong. that they were trained not to fire on moving cars, and to shoot no more than three times before reassessing the situation. That seems to what the Times is saying.

In any case, twenty-something bullets going somewhere downrange, when the range is Queens.

[California Joe]

Technically you're correct. That's a lot of bullets and a lot of ricochets. It's all of the grey areas that the media ignores in the soundbytes that annoy the piss out of me. I'd venture a guess that the majority of shots were fired by the undercover cops backup who, by the time they fired, had every reason to believe another officer was in imminent danger. This entire incident is predicated on his actions. I grow seriously weary of people immediately assuming that these are predatory cops hell bent on executing a "poor groom on his wedding day to his high school sweetheart". Maybe being outside a crime infested strip joint at 4:00AM the day you're getting married, negotiating with a stripper and arguing with another group of guys wasn't exactly the smart thing to be doing....Just a thought. And no, her opinion doesn't mean as much to me as that of the police officers. None of these cops had ever been involved in a shooting before this incident. All of a sudden they just decide to burn up some ammo on a wedding party for sh*ts and giggles? Cracks me up that they're having some whack kind of church service/wake out in front of that hole on the news.

[EsoognomEhT]

That was his stag do wasn't it? The seedier the better...
Since it was early morning when he was shot it was indeed the day of his wedding, not like they were holding the wedding at the strip joint (or whatever it was)


it was reported there were only a few shots fired, so why did this officer empty a mag, reload and empty another?

He thought it jammed so he loaded and emptied another according to the article..(interesting way to clear a stoppage I suppose)

[Hollis]

I hate to burst anyone's bubble, but most Cops can not SHOOT..............

[Paul in Saudi2]

The write-up on the detectives involved in The Times was very educational and sympathetic. They seem like Good Guys. But of course life shows us over and over again the even Good Guys can do dumb stuff. This seems to be an example of that.

They violated policy, they violated their training. All in all, it seems the got caught up in a mad moment. We expect better from our police.

Makes you glad you're not a judge, doesn't it? They killed a guy, darn near two. They simply made a mistake, but a fatal one. If we allow them back on the force, the chances are they will never do this again. On the other hand, the offense is serious and society demands equal justice under the law.

Lots of tough decisions to be made.

[Hollis]

The write-up on the detectives involved in The Times was very educational and sympathetic. They seem like Good Guys. But of course life shows us over and over again the even Good Guys can do dumb stuff. This seems to be an example of that.



Paul, How are you involved in this? Why are you not waiting for the investigation to be carried out before pontificating on the merits of the shoot? have you worked for that agency, worked with those cops, you were there and saw it all.

I find it amazing people can extrapolate so much from so little.

Lets compare the situation, you have cops in a serious situation and there are gun shots going off and all the adrenaline and stuff, then on the other hand you have the wild and woolly internet.

It seems those on the Internet have a lot less control over their "excitement" factor than those cops.

Generally speaking we can say all sorts of stuff, whether it applies to this or not is a complete mystery. Specifically we need to stay germaine to the specific issue, to the facts at hand, and Hopefully ALL the facts.

[EsoognomEhT]

If this messageboard was based soley on the discussion of absolute fact it would be a rather dull place (and not very populated I should imagine)

[California Joe]

Well it's a good thing you showed back up then isn't it Mongoose. :)

[Paul in Saudi2]

The last post was of course my opinion. The facts seem to be pointing in a certain direction.

1. Policemen violated policy by shooting at a moving vehicle.
2. Policemen did follow 'three-shots then look' training.
3. Policemen could not hit a vehicle with even half their shots.
4. Policemen's lawyers call it a 'tragedy.'


All around a bad scene.

[California Joe]

The last post was of course my opinion. The facts seem to be pointing in a certain direction.

1. Policemen violated policy by shooting at a moving vehicle.
Policemen shot at a vehicle that was attempting to run down a fellow officer....twice
2. Policemen did follow 'three-shots then look' training.
Maybe they fired three shots and then looked really fast and then assessed that the threat was still there and shot more.
3. Policemen could not hit a vehicle with even half their shots.
Maybe they should try to run them down with cars more during the police academy so they can practice.
4. Policemen's lawyers call it a 'tragedy.'
"tragedy" in lawyer speak means "we didn't find a gun, why did those drunk retards keep acting like 50cent saying they were doing to go get one in their car and bust a cap..."


All around a bad scene.

Yes, an all around bad scene.

[Laconian]

I do not work for NYPD, and cannot quote you chapter and verse of either their shooting policy or training. However, as a use of force instructor (firearms, impact & chemical weapons and empty hand) and someone who has been in a shooting, it is possible for the officers to act legally but be outside department policy. Certainly this appears to be the case here (the word is appears).

If officers on scene developed a reasonable belief that their own or another person's (LEO or civilian) life was in imminent danger of death or serious bodily injury they were legally justified in using deadly force to stop the threat. That is the legal standard. If NYPD has a "no shooting at vehicles" policy and they violated it, then they could be subject to administrative punishment. The same with the "3 shots and evaluate" rule Paul is mentioning. (Although, I can crank 3 rounds and note their effectiveness pretty quick, so it might be hard to prove that they violated that rule.)

I don't care how good you are at killing paper, when you are shooting to save your life or someone else's, everything changes. Most people (even the police) can't access the frontal lobe of the brain (where reason and judgement reside) under moderate amounts of stress, so they may "know" the right thing to do but can't do it. Stuck with the lower and mid part of the brain, you are about as smart as your Golden Retriever, so you can do only those things that are imbedded there and thinking logically ain't one of them.

Now, that is not an excuse for these officers but it happens. Yes, an all around bad scene, every shooting is.

[sir-chimp]

Like Laconian stated you can be well with in the law and violate department rules and procedures. This is due to the civilian administrations vaguely wording general orders and rules of conduct to try and eliminate as much civil liability from themselves as possible. Good example would be a policy worded that all pedestrians have the right of way when your driving down the road. So if your responding hot to a emergency, and some drunk asshole ignores your lights and siren, ignores the fact their not at a crosswalk, goes against traffic and steps out in the road in front of you and you hit him your in violation of department policy - even though you have violated no state laws regarding police actions when responding to an emergency or state traffic laws.

[HR24]

He thought it jammed so he loaded and emptied another according to the article..(interesting way to clear a stoppage I suppose)

Rip the mag out in case it is a bad feed, clear the chamber, pop in another magazine, charge a round and go. If you are drilled on it incessantly, it becomes almost muscle memory and you'll do it without thinking.

[HR24]

Laconian sir - every time I read your posts the word "bingo" comes to mind.

x2.

1234567890

[Metastaz]

Policemen in this country are generally taught:

Aim for center mass.

Shoot till the threat is eliminated.

Period.
Nice excuse for shooting at unarmed people.

First, the 1st undercover panicked and saw nonexistent gun.
Second, he begin to shoot endlessly "to survive".
Third, other cops instantly turned into shooting machines, turning car with three unarmed guys into swiss cheese.
Forth, those pros were so good shooters they couldn't eliminate three guys at point-blank range with more than 50 bullets. It's a miracle they didn't shoot each other or people around.

Nice example of NYPD professionalism.



these are predatory cops hell bent on executing a "poor groom on his wedding day to his high school sweetheart".No, just cowardly cops who lose control in a stress situation with lethal consequences.



Maybe being outside a crime infested strip joint at 4:00AM the day you're getting married,
Vice versa. Don't you know what young men doing in the last day of "free life" before marriage?



negotiating with a stripper and arguing with another group of guys wasn't exactly the smart thing to be doing....Usual bar brawl. If would end without even black eye if cops won't interfere.



Just a thought. And no, her opinion doesn't mean as much to me as that of the police officers. None of these cops had ever been involved in a shooting before this incident.So they were completely inexperienced. Their "baptism of fire" turns to disaster.



All of a sudden they just decide to burn up some ammo on a wedding party for sh*ts and giggles?Usual cowardice of a "mad ram", who sees guns and threats everywhere.

P.S. Sheep with the gun is not a wolf, but mad ram © Goblin.

[Paul in Saudi2]

In the Weekly Guardian (not the best source, I know) there was a report that some of the missing 29 bullets went into a nearby train station shattering glass which hit two police officers on duty there. Media whores, I'm guessing.

[Paul in Saudi2]

An NYPD officer shot a guy (in the groin!) today. The guy was being chased, pulled a revolver. Officer shot once, hit him. He stopped shooting.

He was probably trying to make these guys look bad. A media whore no doubt.

[sir-chimp]

An NYPD officer shot a guy (in the groin!) today. The guy was being chased, pulled a revolver. Officer shot once, hit him. He stopped shooting.

He was probably trying to make these guys look bad. A media whore no doubt.



That would be my analysis of the situation Paul.

Now please excuse me, my toaster is calling me to give me my nightly commands.

[Paul in Saudi2]

Tell your toaster I said 'Hi.' (Strange to see that sort of behavior from a minor appliance.)

[sir-chimp]

Tell your toaster I said 'Hi.' (Strange to see that sort of behavior from a minor appliance.)

He told me to tell you he agrees with your assessment also and suggests you might want to take a look into the "zionist" aspect of it.

[Paul in Saudi2]

That's no problem, as long as it is no longer telling you to set fires.

[sir-chimp]

That's no problem, as long as it is no longer telling you to set fires.

I get those marching orders from your palestinian buddies.

admiral akbar is hard but fair

[Paul in Saudi2]

Today's NYT is reporting that of the 50 shots fired, perhaps as many as 18 bullets may have hit the people the police were shooting at. The breakdown is:
Sean Bell 4 rounds
Trent Benefield 3 rounds
Joseph Guzman "Had at least 11 bullet wounds along his right side."

If we presume each of the Guzman wounds were caused by different bullets, then we can account for 18 of the 50 bullets fired. Two more seem to have hit the nearby train station. An unknown number hit the car, but not the passengers.

Detective Michael Oliver (a 12-year veteran of the NYPD) fired 31 of the 50 shots. An unnamed undercover officer fired 4 more bullets. Officer Michael Carey. A single round was fired by another unnamed detective.

So it appears that one shooter fired at a threat only he could see, or at a threat the other four officers felt did not exist. It is not yet clear where each officer's bullets went.

In other news, one of the members of the wedding party who was not injured was arrested and released for disorderly conduct.

[Bia]

Video footage at elevated train station a block away shows rounds smashing through trainstation glass.
Port officers dive for cover....one files for injury status.
One round is seen smashing through the glass inches away from elderly mans face.

[Paul in Saudi2]

Must be something in the water. Two policeman got in a tussle with a suspect (it was a gaffitti stakeout). Officer one in wrestling with the suspect. He feels a gun in the guy's coat. He yealls "Shoot him! Shoot him!" Officer Two kills the guy with five (!) shots and point pretty-well blank.

How do you shoot someone when he is in close body contact with your partner?

A gun was found, it seems to have been a rightous shooting.

[mudbunny]

Does anyone know what the name of the syndrome in where when someone (cop or military wise) fires which in turn triggers a direct response from other cops or anyone else with a gun. There's a name for this, but can't remember it.

[EsoognomEhT]

a gang****.

[mudbunny]

No; I don't think that's the name.

[California Joe]

Update because I love this thread and all of the f*cking retarded assumptions in it, and oh yeah, all 3 of the cops were just acquitted of all charges...and yet there are douchebags out front of the courthouse yelling things like "Racism", "KKK", "No justice for black people..." Frankly, I'd say the TWO BLACK and ONE HISPANIC POLICE OFFICERS saw justice done today.

You have a problem with the guy that shot your fine upstanding whoremongering groom to be? Fine. That's expected, but it doesn't translate into institutional racism or some sort of conspiracy. And the idiots that got shot are culpable in this instance.

[Aerosoul]

Just came to post the article, nice bump CJ.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080425/ap_on_re_us/police_shooting

[mudbunny]

I just assumed that the culprits wife left the courtoom yelling was because she was frustrated that she couldn't claim racism and she might just have to accept that her fiance/husband was wrong.

[EsoognomEhT]

I still think its called a gang**** :D

[mudbunny]

Thank you.

[tomonator]

Don't worry the Rev. Al Sharpton is now organizing civil disobedience. He is a champion of justice.:roll:

[Roy Batty]

I know lots of guy who now wish they had been shot on their wedding day. :D

[mudbunny]

Does anyone here feel that the verdict was just/unjust? Why?

[Hot Lips]

Update because I love this thread and all of the f*cking retarded assumptions in it, and oh yeah, all 3 of the cops were just acquitted of all charges...and yet there are douchebags out front of the courthouse yelling things like "Racism", "KKK", "No justice for black people..." Frankly, I'd say the TWO BLACK and ONE HISPANIC POLICE OFFICERS saw justice done today.

You have a problem with the guy that shot your fine upstanding whoremongering groom to be? Fine. That's expected, but it doesn't translate into institutional racism or some sort of conspiracy. And the idiots that got shot are culpable in this instance.

meow p-)

Ironic how even when faced with a glaring contradiction (that racism isn't the issue here) you just can't win with some people.

[AGE-Ranger]

meow p-)

Ironic how even when faced with a glaring contradiction (that racism isn't the issue here) you just can't win with some people.

Nobody wants to say it, but the fact is many of these people complaining are racist, against whites. They see a cop shooting and automatically think its a bunch of white guys.

[ronin2172]

meow p-)

Ironic how even when faced with a glaring contradiction (that racism isn't the issue here) you just can't win with some people.

The issue is not the race of the police but the race of the victim. This is not an isolated incident between the NYPD and the Black community. So the fact that the officers were minorities really has no factor on the Black communities issues in this matter. I have seen plenty of arguements in front of all sorts of clubs involving white patrons of said establishment...yet they never seem to end in one being shot 50 times or end up with one being sodomised with a plunger in a bathroom at a police precinct (Search Abner Louima). Yet this happens with the NYPD on a frighteningly regular basis when dealing with Black people...why is that?

Whether one likes it or not there is a wedge between the Black community and the police and it isn't getting smaller. You can talk to black males from all walks of life and you might be surprised how often they will tell you of times they had run ins with the police and how scared they were (including myself).

[Atlantic Friend]

Wow, another cop shooting thread with almost no details for everyone to start speculating about and airing all their anti cop grievances because they got a ticket once. Gee these sure are fun. Can't we all just go back to speculating about who's the toughest Special Forces in the world?

Nah....Since their last stunt in Somalia everybody must (secretly) root for GIGN now.

[Zoomie]

You can talk to black males from all walks of life and you might be surprised how often they will tell you of times they had run ins with the police and how scared they were (including myself).

Sure, they may all have a story to tell, but how do you know that they're all accurate, or even true?

[Hot Lips]

http://i.l.cnn.net/cnn/2008/CRIME/04/25/sunny.bell/art.bell.cops.jpg


The issue is not the race of the police but the race of the victim. This is not an isolated incident between the NYPD and the Black community. So the fact that the officers were minorities really has no factor on the Black communities issues in this matter.

Sorry. No sale. Can't have it both ways.

CJ is spot on. The race of the officer is completely relevant if you are going cry racism.

Sean Bell's friends who testified on his behalf were described as being combative on the witness stand... that's sober... why should the judge believe that wasn't also the case on the scene when faced with the authority of the officers while they were out drinking at a strip club all night?



It is so very clear that Cooperman did exactly what any juror was supposed to do.

He listened to the evidence. He learned that Club Kalua, the strip club that Sean Bell (http://topics.cnn.com/topics/sean_bell) and his companions were at that night, had been at the center of neighborhood complaints, drug activity and prostitution arrests, which is why undercover officers were there in the first place.
He heard the consistent grand jury testimony of all three defendant police officers. He heard the testimony of Detective Hispolito Sanchez, an undercover officer inside the club who heard Bell's companion, Joseph Guzman say "Yo, get my gun" and heard Sean Bell threaten to beat up a man near an SUV.

And he heard the testimony of Guzman, who denied, contrary to the testimony of other witnesses, that he uttered the words "Go get my gun." Cooperman also learned that Guzman had spent five years in prison for robbery and drug convictions for selling crack and was suing for $50 million in civil court.

It was clear that Guzman was the linchpin of this case. If you believe him, that the officers shot at Bell and his friends for no reason at all, the officers are guilty. If you don't believe him, then his statement -- "Go get my gun" -- sent the night into mayhem, causing the officers to believe that the men were armed and justifying the officers' actions that night.
Guzman was combative on the stand, irreverent. During his cross-examination by attorney Anthony L. Ricco, who represented Isnora, he shot back: "You know what needs to happen? This needs to happen to your family."

CNN.com (http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/04/25/sunny.bell/#cnnSTCText)



Police across the country have tried to be more sensitive to various communities by having members of those communities patrol them. But, instead of criminals getting a neighborhood cop who might turn a blind they are finding that at the end of the day the cops still have a job to do. It ceases to be about race and more about the communities need to change.

There are racist in every walk of life, crying wolf or rather "KKK" because the justice system found two black and one Hispanic officer innocent, dilutes the significance of racism as an issue when it's actually applicable.

[Laconian]

Nicely put, HL

[Red]

The issue is not the race of the police but the race of the victim. This is not an isolated incident between the NYPD and the Black community. So the fact that the officers were minorities really has no factor on the Black communities issues in this matter. I have seen plenty of arguements in front of all sorts of clubs involving white patrons of said establishment...yet they never seem to end in one being shot 50 times or end up with one being sodomised with a plunger in a bathroom at a police precinct (Search Abner Louima). Yet this happens with the NYPD on a frighteningly regular basis when dealing with Black people...why is that?

Whether one likes it or not there is a wedge between the Black community and the police and it isn't getting smaller. You can talk to black males from all walks of life and you might be surprised how often they will tell you of times they had run ins with the police and how scared they were (including myself).
Hey Ronin...long time