US 'emulates' Israeli tactics

[SeanAshi]

US soldiers in Iraq have been faced with revolts on more than one front
With sporadic fighting in Falluja and US forces moving into position outside Najaf, the Arab press is pointing to similarities between US military operations in Iraq and the tactics Israeli forces employ in the West Bank and Gaza.
Such similarities are not coincidental.

The Israeli army has long experience of offensive operations in urban areas and it is experience that the Pentagon has been eager to draw upon.

Israel and the US have developed a close military relationship over the years.

Two-way exchange

Israel's armed forces are undergoing a process of transformation similar to that advocated by US Defence Secretary Donald Rumsfeld with the emphasis on lighter, more agile units employing devastating firepower and drawing on a variety of new information and intelligence gathering systems.

Go to any US military exercise and Israeli observers are much in evidence.

But the transfer of doctrine and tactics is not just a one-way street.

US commanders have drawn extensively on Israel's experiences in the West Bank and Gaza Strip for lessons that might be applicable to Iraq.

Urban trap

Fighting in urban areas is something that modern armies tend to avoid wherever possible.

In the low-rise warren of alleys and narrow streets the advantages of technologically sophisticated soldiers are much reduced.

Even lightly armed opponents with local knowledge can constitute serious opposition.

And the proximity of civilians adds the risk of significant loss of innocent life and widespread damage to property.

While many of Israel's methods are controversial it has, in purely military terms, developed highly effective tactics for offensive operations in urban areas along with a range of specialised equipment which, for example, can help troops to breach walls, gather intelligence, and locate snipers.

The Pentagon has already bought some Israeli equipment. It is planning to buy more.

And senior US commanders have visited Israel specifically to discuss what the Pentagon jargon calls "Military Operations on Urban Terrain".

[ExtraT]

The most effective piece of equipment that IDF uses in "snakepits" is the D9 armored bulldozer.

[Garibaldi]

Israeli tactics, I agree, are excellent, as the article says "in pure military terms." But the situation in Irak is less military than political, because the main goal of the United States is not to seize or recover ground, or destroy an army. It is to change a political system and create a democracy in a country that has no democratic tradition. In that sense, bulldozing houses, besieging and punishing entire cities and using airstrikes in civilian areas is not the best way to achieve the objectives America is fighting for.
These tactics could well serve the israelis to keep terorrists at bay, but they´ll do little to win the iraquis "hearts and minds", which is what Iraq occupation is about.

[gilgoul]

Israeli tactics, I agree, are excellent, as the article says "in pure military terms." But the situation in Irak is less military than political, because the main goal of the United States is not to seize or recover ground, or destroy an army. It is to change a political system and create a democracy in a country that has no democratic tradition. In that sense, bulldozing houses, besieging and punishing entire cities and using airstrikes in civilian areas is not the best way to achieve the objectives America is fighting for.
These tactics could well serve the israelis to keep terorrists at bay, but they´ll do little to win the iraquis "hearts and minds", which is what Iraq occupation is about.


winning the "hearts and mind" of a population that hates you "a priori" is a kind of difficult, i can tell you that even "humanitarian" missions don`t bring you the slightest smile from the population, and that a nice and polite guy or woman can turn into an informant, a sentinel, a weapon smugler and so on.
Secundo, there is no "enlightened" occupation, we tried that in 67, it brought us to the situation we are in now, even if the avarage income of the palestinians raised after the invasion, the infant mortality diminished, the rate of unemployement too, and even civil rights under military governorship was better than in the "democratic" egypt and jordan,
tertio, i can tell you from experience, the ROE in the IDF are VERY restrictive, you often take risks for yourself and your soldiers in order to protect civilians and children.
The rules of behavior toward the population are also strictly codified and soldiers are required to behave properly toward the population.
That said, it`s true that sometimes soldiers disobeyed ROE or behaviour rules, that sometimes people had be injured or killed for apparent dubious reasons, and those case are investigated and punished.
Last ut not least, techniques of progression in urban areas are very important, and they create minimal damage to property as opposed to bringing in systematic air support or arty direct fire, as used in beyrouth in 82.
But when you face entrenched and determined enemies, you have no choice but to level their hide out, or suffer high level of casualties, even with modern tech and tactics.
It was the case in Jenin, were the damage has been minimal compared to the concentration of fire and the number of fighters and their weapons.
It is the case now in fallujah, in an completely different proportion and tactic.

[HELEX]

The tactics might be effective, but it will not help to win "Hearts and Minds" of the Iraqis.... :roll:

[citizen-k]

Perhaps it would be more prudent if US forces studied the British Armed Forces actions in Northern Ireland.
If anything Israel's actions in the West bank and the Gaza strip have made things much worse for the security of Israel.
If the US seeks to emulate these actions by using heavy handed tactics it will only make things much worse on the ground for it's troops.

If only Iraq and Gaza were populated by Irish...

[born_to_kill]

Yeah its alot easier dealing with Irish or anyoen else for that matter than it is dealing with arabs...

... If the native americans were arabs , the US would be in some deep ****

[Javehn]

Perhaps it would be more prudent if US forces studied the British Armed Forces actions in Northern Ireland.
If anything Israel's actions in the West bank and the Gaza strip have made things much worse for the security of Israel.
If the US seeks to emulate these actions by using heavy handed tactics it will only make things much worse on the ground for it's troops.

If only Iraq and Gaza were populated by Irish...

I would be chocking with Guiness long time ago , in beach near Gazaglen . "Aye , Those bleedy Leprickons make us troubles again " .

I tend to agree with the article thought .

[Gringo]

I think you under-estimate how brutal and vicious the IRA can be.

Ever heard of what happened to those two Royal Signalsmen?

Another thing; gilgoul, can you tell me the ROE procedure of the IDF?

Edit:


Northern Ireland:


Directly taken from SAS: The Soldiers Story





It was just after the business in Gibraltar and these two signallers, Corporal Derek Woods and Corporal Robert Howes, based at NI headquarters, strayed into the funeral procession in Belfast. Woods was a specialist and the other guy was his relief. Woods was due to leave in a few days and he was showing the other chap around these locations. They just ended up being in the wrong place at the wrong time. They should never, never, never have been anywhere near that bloody funeral. The RUC and the military had pulled back, allowing the mourners to have their procession. It was policed by their own people, the official IRA. They had their own stewards. They had put up their own road blocks and closed off roads.


I was in an RUC station with a patrol from the regiment. We had unmarked cars, quite a bit away from the funeral. The first we knew was at the same time as the rest of the world -- the news flashes on TV.


'****ing hell,' I said. 'Is that one of ours?'


We were trying to account for ourselves, looking at the car, checking the number plate, and realised it wasn't one of ours. At first, like everyone else, we thought it was a Loyalist hit team that had gone in to do a job and ****ed up. But because streets had been closed off, the guys had ended up going down a couple of streets they didn't know. They got spooked and panicked and suddenly reversed into that funeral procession. They were blocked in by black taxis. Because they hadn't been trained and were slow to react, they allowed themselves to get boxed in. Had they been trained, they could perhaps have got out by ramming the taxis.


One of the guys drew a pistol and fired in the air. That again showed lack of confidence, lack of training. By that stage, surely, the game was up. When you are confronted by an angry mob like that, they are going to rip you to pieces. If you're going to draw a weapon, then bloody well use it, because the moment they fired in the air, they got leapt on. Had they fired and shot somebody, they might even have been able to shoot themselves out of it, although I doubt it because they did not handle the situation well enough. Lack of training: nothing more.


I'm sure that if those two soldiers in that car had been SAS, things would have been very different. In fact, it would never have happened because we would never have allowed ourselves to get into that situation. But just imagining the impossible, that we had found ourselves cornered by a rioting mob, then the streets would have been flowing with blood. For a start, we would have been armed to the teeth, including automatic weapons. Had they come at me, and it was clear that they were going to kill us, I would have issued the correct warning and then opened fire. The world would not have liked it, but I would have been covered legally. Do you honestly think I would stand there, knowing that I was going to be ripped to pieces, limb from limb? Have you ever had a rioting crowd coming at you? It is horrific. It is terrifying. It is very, very frightening.


The signallers ended up being dragged from the car by the mob, then they were dragged through the gates that led to a park. An army patrol got to the waste ground at the back of the shops in the Falls Road within minutes, but it was after the two guys had been shot. We got back to our hangar still thinking, What the ****ing hell's going on? It was quickly established that it was two signallers who had been murdered. We were very upset about it.


Next morning we were buzzed to assemble in the meeting room. All the troop were there. None of us knew what was going to happen, then an Int. officer appeared and told us that the helicopter had videoed the whole thing. I think that the pilot, the cameraman and all those involved, and the people getting the live broadcast at Group, were severely reprimanded because surely the helicopter should have come down and buzzed but it just stood there monitoring. We were all slightly pissed off about that.


The officer warned us that the video was dreadful and that he was going to show it to us there and then. We needed to know what had happened because we were going to have to mount a major operation to bring those people to justice. You could have heard a pin drop in that briefing room. It was horrible. We had to sit and watch while the soldiers were beaten unconscious, thrown over a fence and bundled into a taxi, which drove to some nearby waste ground. Then they were shot, repeatedly.


After seeing the video, we were absolutely dumbfounded, mortified, outraged. I personally felt physically sick. No one spoke. We were just so horror-struck. It was obvious that we had to bring these people to justice. We were the SAS. Yet none of us took the law into our own hands. None of us went out and took any retaliation or retribution. None of us. That's part of the training of the regiment and the calibre of the regiment and the professionalism of the regiment. We are not above the law.


We continued normal ops, and a long-drawn-out operation was mounted. People were identified. One of the guys, the one who smashed the soldiers' car window, was an OTR [on the run], and eventually all the people guilty of murdering those two young lads were brought to justice.

[Airborneranger4israel]

Perhaps it would be more prudent if US forces studied the British Armed Forces actions in Northern Ireland.
If anything Israel's actions in the West bank and the Gaza strip have made things much worse for the security of Israel.
If the US seeks to emulate these actions by using heavy handed tactics it will only make things much worse on the ground for it's troops.

The IRA are easier to handle because they are a much smaller terrorist organization that does not have international ties. Also the majority of the population does not support their actions where as in iraq and gaza it does.

[Hydro]

IRA had international ties with quite a few players, the PLO for example. The ace in the hole was Libya, who liberally attempted (and succeeded, in some cases) to supply them with weapons and explosives. There were even ties with the US (Mainly whip-rounds in Boston bars, but AR18's and Barrett .50's were making themselves felt in the Province). IRA were pretty hard to handle, everything was done within the confines of CIVIL law, but as we know, terrorists operate with no law.

The IRA, in some cases, were just as fanatical as your average Iraqi Jihadist. The only real difference was the IRA aimed to get away with it, and they were much smaller :)

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

The IRA are easier to handle because they are a much smaller terrorist organization that does not have international ties.
Yes smaller but very well organised and, funded most funding came from the US although things have improved on that front since Clintons second term. I to this day would never underestimate the size of an operation the IRA could possibly mount at short notice.

[Gringo]

An M60 responsible for killing an SAS Captain was supplied by American suppliers.

luckyily, the IRA was more confined in their ops then Al Qaida.

[Ian H]

Also they speak the same language as the security forces. Any gesture/action can be misinterpreted by locals if they can't understand your reasons for doing it.

Hypothetical example: In attempting to detain a suspect you need to get into or through someones house. The owner can't understand you asking him to move aside and let you in, but you have to arrest this person so you push him out of the way and charge in. That's one pissed off person, who'll tell his friends, who'll also be pissed off at you. If he understood you he might be OK about it, but all he knows is you entered his house without his permission.

Iraq shares characteristics from many wars/IS operations, all we have to do is avoid the trap of saying its identical to one, and acting like we did then.

[W(M)D]

The tactics might be effective, but it will not help to win "Hearts and Minds" of the Iraqis.... :roll:

Their is an old saying: Grab them by the balls and their hearts & minds will follow!!!

[Gringo]

The tactics might be effective, but it will not help to win "Hearts and Minds" of the Iraqis.... :roll:

Their is an old saying: Grab them by the balls and their hearts & minds will follow!!!

like what Saddam was doing?