Voters 'back Scots independence'

[tyovan]

A majority of voters in both England and Scotland back the break-up of the United Kingdom, a poll has suggested.

Support for Scottish independence has reached 52% among Scots and 59% south of the border, the ICM survey for The Sunday Telegraph found.

A move to complete English independence from the rest of the UK was backed by 48% of voters in England.

The telephone poll, conducted on 22 and 23 November, interviewed 1,003 Scots and 869 English people.

'Shared values'

Earlier this month a similar ICM poll for The Scotsman found 51% of Scots wanted to break away from England.

The latest poll comes as Labour ministers lined up at the party's Scottish conference in Oban to attack the SNP's pledge to hold a referendum on independence if it gains power at next May's Scottish Parliament elections.

Responding to the poll, Chancellor Gordon Brown repeated the warning he had given delegates in Oban.

"There is a debate to be had about the future of the United Kingdom," he said.

"But I think when you look at the arguments, when you look at the family ties, the economic connections, the shared values, the history of our relationship which has lasted 300 years, people will decide we are stronger together and weaker apart."

SNP leader Alex Salmond said that Scots were tired of being ruled from London.

"The onset of devolution has made people realise that since we have a devolved parliament, it's time to have a real parliament with real powers," he said.

Mr Salmond suggested that Labour wanted to maintain the union out of "naked self interest" - to retain its grip on Westminster.

He added that English voters were "quite rightly" resentful of the influence of Scottish MPs in English affairs.

"The people of both countries are now seeing through this unionist charade and supporting independence and self-respect for both countries," Mr Salmond said.

Bedded down

Tory leader David Cameron backed the union and dismissed the notion of a new English parliament.

Mr Cameron said: "The union between England, Scotland and Wales is good for us all and we are stronger together than we are apart."

Sir Menzies Campbell, the Lib Dem leader, said: "Once devolution has bedded down in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland it would be entirely appropriate to consider the role of MPs from all three countries at Westminster.

"We should do this calmly and rationally by means of a constitutional convention with a responsibility to report to parliament."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/scotland/6185652.stm

What do our British friends think about this poll and about the possibility of breaking up the UK?

[singlemalt]

sooner we break away the better

[Hydro]

I am a Scot living in England, and I'm opposed to any break up of the United Kingdom. Our countries are stronger together.

[Lazy Lob]

yes...............but neither here nor there.............so said Yoda Blair

[Lov3ll]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2006/11/26/nunion26.xml
Another link with some more polls.
I fail to see the benefits of breaking up the UK.

[annihilation]

I am a Scot living in England, and I'm opposed to any break up of the United Kingdom. Our countries are stronger together.

I have to agree with you on that. Only morons would want a break up. The smaller the nation the weaker the nation is. Well I guess thats better for us Americans to have smaller nations to deal with. It takes less muscle for us to push them around.

The future is about those countries with larger resources and populations not of those who are smaller.

[Niels]

Why do they want to break away from the UK? What is there to gain?

[wHo]

I am a Scot living in England, and I'm opposed to any break up of the United Kingdom. Our countries are stronger together.

100% agree, I'm English and see no benefits at all for any country wanting to break away from the uk.
Everything is fine the way it is and i know plenty of scots who feel the same way.

What would scotland do anyway? join the euro? have a separate military? just seems insane to me.

[annihilation]

100% agree, I'm English and see no benefits at all for any country wanting to break away from the uk.
Everything is fine the way it is and i know plenty of scots who feel the same way.

What would scotland do anyway? join the euro? have a separate military? just seems insane to me.


I always wonder who are those trying to push for this and what do they have to gain from it? Could be that they would have no political chance in the much larger system and feel if a segment seperates that they would increase their chance of political power / control.

[wHo]

I always wonder who are those trying to push for this and what do they have to gain from it? Could be that they would have no political chance in the much larger system and feel if a segment seperates that they would increase their chance of political power / control.

Yep i think you hit the nail on the head, sadly its all about power.
I just hope the scots dont fall for this nonsense it would be a disaster for everyone involved imo

[Flamming_Python]

Well i'm opposed to any break-up of the United Kingdom. Both Scotland and England will suffer economically, and cultural ties will be severly weakened.

The SNP basis its favourable economic policy which it claims will give its people better prosperity than in the UK, on the North Sea oil fields. Suffice to say, basing your economic policy purely on the basis of an unstable price of a tradeable commodity, is very stupid and risky.

The SNP, is however, winning support it seems, because of the increasing dis-illusionment of the Scottish towards British politics, both foreign policy and domestic policy, which has been terrible thanks to Tony Blair's Labour government. The devolution seems to have strengthened calls for independence, rather then weaken them.

Still, it would be preferable that the peoples stick together, and the Scots direct their anger into voting Labour and who-ever else they don't want to be in charge of Britain, rather than splitting off and leaving the English to their fate.

[DeltaWhisky58]

I am a Scot living in England, and I'm opposed to any break up of the United Kingdom. Our countries are stronger together.

Hear hear, I'm a Scot, but first and foremost I'm British. This is a very small statistical sample which has been canvassed - it is what the whole of Scotland and the U.K. thinks which matters.

[Flamming_Python]

Hear hear, I'm a Scot, but first and foremost I'm British. This is a very small statistical sample which has been canvassed - it is what the whole of Scotland and the U.K. thinks which matters.

I hear the current thing the seperatist parties are pushing is a referendum on independence, in Scotland. You heard any news about this?

[DeltaWhisky58]

I hear the current thing the seperatist parties are pushing is a referendum on independence, in Scotland. You heard any news about this?

Not so far. I have the misfortune live in an SNP (Scottish National Party) constituency although I'm proud to say I never have and never will vote for them.

[Hydro]

Scottish independence is just unrealistic. The economy is not there to support an independent country. Basing national survival on North Sea oil and gas is flaky at best. They will run out, and then what? Tourist shortcake tins and fish? IMO a devolved Parliament is as far as it needs to go (look at that debacle with the Parliament building! Imagine the brains behind that trying to run a totally independent country! ****ing ugly too). I love where I come from, but I'm also a realist. Scotland had a heavy hand in building the UK into what it is now, and to piss all that up the wall would be stupid.


What would that spell for the UK then? Wales would want to go, and God knows what will kick off in N.I again....

[DeltaWhisky58]

Do the Scottish Nationalist really think that Westminster is going to give up North Sea oil - they need to get a grip. Unless they want Scotland to be plunged into a situation where they would have to subsist on a mainly agricultural economy devastated by European mismanagement, they need to do a drastic rethink.

The Holyrood parliament is already a joke, stop whilst you can.

Dream on SNP.

[Ordie]

Whats the point of independence?

Scotland has its own parlament, flag, currency, laws, education system, football association, its own football team, its own rugby union team, its own languages (Glasgowegian, Galelic etc..), its own food (note: menu based on a dare), its own monster and the Bay City Rollers.

Besides if it were free from London, they are both still part of the EU.

[DeltaWhisky58]

Whats the point of independence?

Scotland has its own parlament, flag, currency, laws, education system, football association, its own football team, its own rugby union team, its own languages (Glasgowegian, Galelic etc..), its own food (note: menu based on a dare), its own monster and the Bay City Rollers.

Besides if it were free from London, they are both still part of the EU.

I only wish it were that simple, but it isn't!

[muttbutt]

Whats the point of independence?

Scotland has its own parlament, flag, currency, laws, education system, football association, its own football team, its own rugby union team, its own languages (Glasgowegian, Galelic etc..), its own food (note: menu based on a dare), its own monster and the Bay City Rollers.

Besides if it were free from London, they are both still part of the EU.
well they got a boost from how well Ireland is doing now, it's kind of a model of a smallish sucessful country they can now sell to the public, for a long time the SNP's only plan was independence, and then what?, I feel we may be partly responsible for this now,p-)

[Ordie]

well they got a boost from how well Ireland is doing now, it's kind of a model of a smallish sucessful country they can now sell to the public, for a long time the SNP's only plan was independence, and then what?, I feel we may be partly responsible for this now,p-)

Until recent times, the Irish Republic was an economic basketcase. Since the SNP want independence really bad, I propose that the next government in Westminister appoint an SNP member in PM cabinent.

[DeltaWhisky58]

Until recent times, the Irish Republic was an economic basketcase. Since the SNP want independence really bad, I propose that the next government in Westminister appoint an SNP member in PM cabinent.

It is not British political practice for MPs from the opposition, let alone a minority party, to sit on Cabinet unless in a coalition goverment, e.g, in wartime.

[ShotOver]

I am a Scot living in England, and I'm opposed to any break up of the United Kingdom. Our countries are stronger together.

Yeah mate, I am a Scot living in Australia. I would back the idea, if I knew it was good for Scotland. I mean, being seperate maybe to do with Pride - but it would be a silly thing if it hurt her.

[Switek]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/graphics/2006/11/26/nunion126.jpg

Seems like Czecho-Slovakian casus...:|

[blue104]

Do the Scottish Nationalist really think that Westminster is going to give up North Sea oil - they need to get a grip. Unless they want Scotland to be plunged into a situation where they would have to subsist on a mainly agricultural economy devastated by European mismanagement, they need to do a drastic rethink.

The Holyrood parliament is already a joke, stop whilst you can.

Dream on SNP.

You seem to be stating that London will use armed force if necessary to prevent Scotland from gaining hold of the North Sea oil fields. Wouldn't this plunge the region into a potential war zone?

Ireland is an independant Republic not because of what London wanted but because of what the people of Eire desired.

The same rule will apply in Scotland.

One must also remember that Britain is likely to lose its Submarine based nuclear weapons capacity if its subs can no longer dock in Scottish wharfs due to the lack of appropriate infrastructure in England.

London shall lose two assets if Scotland becomes a Republic:

(1) It's submarine based nuclear arsenal;

(2) The North Field oil reserves.

Even a Tory government would be extremely reluctant to use force against Scotland to maintain both.

[DeltaWhisky58]

Come on guys - we've heard from just about every other country - what do my fellow Jocks think?

[DeltaWhisky58]

You seem to be stating that London will use armed force if necessary to prevent Scotland from gaining hold of the North Sea oil fields. Wouldn't this plunge the region into a potential war zone?


Who said that, I certainly didn't - where on earth did you get that ridiculous idea from?

[blue104]

Obviously London will use not force against legitimate Scottish nationalist aspirations, including any dispute over the North Field oil reserves.

However, you did not clarify how Westminster could prevent Independent Scottish authorities from integrating the only real strategic asset Scotland has into a viable economic base for a prosperous Scottish Republic.

[DeltaWhisky58]

However, you did not clarify how Westminster could prevent Independent Scottish authorities from integrating the only real strategic asset Scotland has into a viable economic base for a prosperous Scottish Republic.

Again, you're putting words into my mouth. I didn't mention defence implications because at this stage independence is only a pipe dream. It would not only be the nuclear base at Faslane, there are also three major RAF air bases in Scotland, and a number of other military installations including bases for several infantry battalions and a Royal Marines Commando.

Please confine your posts to your own views and stop trying to pervert what you perceive me as saying. :bash:

[Gluten]

so maybe the next european war will be at the border between Scotland and England, lets hope not! and its almost 50/50 in the matter so i think the question being real is far away but what do i know im not Brittish

[Switek]

Why, the hell, I cand find mostly bloody scenarios of possible secession? Don't you believe of some kind velvet divorce without heavy guns?

[vrb]

Not so far. I have the misfortune live in an SNP (Scottish National Party) constituency although I'm proud to say I never have and never will vote for them.


Even if all the other parties had a 'Feed DeltaWhisky to Lions' manifesto and the SNP one was 'Give DeltaWhisky £10,000,000' :)

[DeltaWhisky58]

It has to be remembered that the so-called Scottish Parliament is in effect only a regional assembly as with those in Cardiff and Belfast, and that it has no powers of determining foreign or national policy. Its law making powers are only pertinent to local policy - remember Scotland has a different legal system to England - and can have no effect whatsoever on such things as defence and energy production, so would not cover oil or military matters which are 100% under the control of Westminster.


Even if all the other parties had a 'Feed DeltaWhisky to Lions' manifesto and the SNP one was 'Give DeltaWhisky £10,000,000' :)

I think I'll take my chances with the lions - but there again living under knobhead Bliar is almost as bad.

[tomonator]

What would be the benefit of independence from the UK? " He asked naively."

[DeltaWhisky58]

In my opinion, none whatsoever. In fact it would be a disadvantage.

[fantomas]

http://cache.kotaku.com/assets/resources/2006/08/Braveheart.jpg


FREEEEEEEDOM!!!

[DeltaWhisky58]

http://cache.kotaku.com/assets/resources/2006/08/Braveheart.jpg


FREEEEEEEDOM!!!

That's no Scotsman! :bash: rofl

[fantomas]

http://www.users.bigpond.com/rdoolan/Pix/lochnessmonster.jpg

FREEEDOM!!

[DeltaWhisky58]

http://www.users.bigpond.com/rdoolan/Pix/lochnessmonster.jpg

FREEEDOM!!

I give up, the world is full of fools! ;-)

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

I support the notion of an independent Scotland and I have voted SNP since getting the vote, I believe in independence for practical reasons not emotional ones.

[ren0312]

Is there some kind of yardstick as to how a country prevents a part of it from seceeding? The United States went to war in order to prevent the South from seceeding, and my country engaged in a 30 + year long war to prevent Muslim separatists from forming an independent state in Mindanao, while Russia prevented Chechnya from breaking away by froce, while Spain and the UK I think will almost certainly rule out the use of force to prevent Catalonia and Scotland from declaring independence respectively, some countries, including mine, think that civil war is an acceptable price to pay in order to keep a country together, and I agree with what my government did in Mindanao in the 1970's, to use force to prevent the Moro separatists from getting their demands of an independent state in Mindanao, while some countries think that it is OK for their state to be partitioned if it means avoiding a civil war.

[DeltaWhisky58]

I support the notion of an independent Scotland and I have voted SNP since getting the vote, I believe in independence for practical reasons not emotional ones.

As is your right in a democratic state.

I just wish newspapers and the like wouldn't try and base their perceptions of the voting trends of an entire nation based on a statistical population sample the size of that of a village, which I'm sure doesn't geographically, politically and otherwise represent the population of Scotland.


Is there some kind of yardstick as to how a country prevents a part of it from seceeding? The United States went to war in order to prevent the South from seceeding, and my country engaged in a 30 + year long war to prevent Muslim separatists from forming an independent state in Mindanao, while Russia prevented Chechnya from breaking away by froce, while Spain and the UK I think will almost certainly rule out the use of force to prevent Catalonia and Scotland from declaring independence respectively, some countries, including mine, think that civil war is an acceptable price to pay in order to keep a country together, and I agree with what my government did in Mindanao in the 1970's, to use force to prevent the Moro separatists from getting their demands of an independent state in Mindanao, while some countries think that it is OK for their state to be partitioned if it means avoiding a civil war.

There are some who would happily fight for an independent Scotland, but thankfully they are a very small minority. I can't see it ever coming to that, but who knows - I certainly hope not.

[oldsoak]

I'd rather the Scots stayed in because I think both sides would loose if we went our own ways - economically and culturally. I know the price of good malt would come down as central government would no longer be able to shaft Scots whisky producers, :-) but Britian would loose a nation thats been part of "our" scene for ages, and one that has been a great part of what made Britain "British". I do also feel that the Scots could teach England what it means to be English. They have realised that their history, culture and language are too unique and valueable to be drowned in the stew that Britiain is becoming , but is best served with pride as a dish in itself. We've a lot to learn from them.

[SBL]

What's so terrible about being part of the UK?
In days past I could understand them wanting to be independent, but it seems that Scotland would have more to lose than gain if it broke away. Besides, with all that shared history I have a hard time veiwing them as seperate entities. What's the point?

[DeltaWhisky58]

I'd rather the Scots stayed in because I think both sides would loose if we went our own ways - economically and culturally. I know the price of good malt would come down as central government would no longer be able to shaft Scots whisky producers, :-) but Britian would loose a nation thats been part of "our" scene for ages, and one that has been a great part of what made Britain "British". I do also feel that the Scots could teach England what it means to be English. They have realised that their history, culture and language are too unique and valueable to be drowned in the stew that Britiain is becoming , but is best served with pride as a dish in itself. We've a lot to learn from them.

Well said! woot

[J-Bags]

http://www.users.bigpond.com/rdoolan/Pix/lochnessmonster.jpg

FREEEDOM!!

Bah! 'Tis merely the periscope of a toy submarine!

[SerbPVO]

As a Serb with some Celtic blood running through my veins, I fully support the independence of my Scottish cousions from their Anglo-Saxon subjugators:)

Until that happens, you can listen to some Serbian Celtic music here:

http://www.orthodoxcelts.co.yu/

[Hydro]

As a Serb with some Celtic blood running through my veins, I fully support the independence of my Scottish cousions from their Anglo-Saxon subjugators:)




As an actual Scot, I don't feel very subjugated.

[Freedom06]

It seems the issue of scottish independance gained a lot of momentum from the Iraq war. I got the feeling that a lot of scots resented having Westminster vote for the war 'on their behalf' and the rough time The Black Watch had + the amalgamation of the other regiments just added to that feeling. Personally I think it would be a sad day to see the union disintegrate.. I heard even Cornwall and Northumberland have thought about having a regional assembly of some kind...

[eugenlitwin]

While it is generally accepted that his support of Scotland's independence and the Scottish National Party delayed his knighthood for many years, his commitment to Scotland has never wavered. Politics in the United Kingdom (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politics_of_the_United_Kingdom) often has more intrigue than a James Bond plot. While Scotland is not yet independent, she does have a new parliament. Sir Sean campaigned hard for the yes vote during the Scottish Referendum (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scotland_referendum%2C_1997) that created the new Scottish Parliament (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_Parliament). He believes firmly that the Scottish Parliament will grow in power and that Scotland will be independent within his lifetime.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/33/Cquote2.png/30px-Cquote2.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Cquote2.png)

—SeanConnery.com on Sean Connery's support of the Scottish National Party, http://www.seanconnery.com/biography/knighthood/ (http://www.seanconnery.com/biography/knighthood/)

Real”James Bond is traitor?rofl

[Flamming_Python]

Real”James Bond is traitor?rofl

rofl rofl

So much for King & Country...

[eugenlitwin]

rofl rofl

So much for King & Country...

king & UKp-) ,

[oldsoak]

As an actual Scot, I don't feel very subjugated.

- subjugation ?! The Scotland I know does pretty well for a "subjugated " nation - all on its own hard work and thrift I might add.
c'mon hydro , play the game. adopt the the braw and say - see you, Sassenach baastard !
Just remeber you are a subjugated nation next time you stuff us at rugby , ok ? :lol:

[Johnny_H02]

Hear hear, I'm a Scot, but first and foremost I'm British. This is a very small statistical sample which has been canvassed - it is what the whole of Scotland and the U.K. thinks which matters.

Hey DW as I am pretty suspicious you are Robert the Bruce, and well secretly the King of Scotland in disguise, if Scotland leaves the UK can Canada have their spot? .... Kidding .... ..... But seriously I want in!

[DeltaWhisky58]

Hey DW as I am pretty suspicious you are Robert the Bruce, and well secretly the King of Scotland in disguise, if Scotland leaves the UK can Canada have their spot? .... Kidding .... ..... But seriously I want in!

Oh sh!t, my secret is out....................... woot

[Johnny_H02]

funny thing is the same sort of thing is in Canada some group of collective retards thought it would be a great idea to say that "Quebec is a nation within Canada" ..... * sighs * world is going straight to hell.

[DeltaWhisky58]

An SNP slogan used to say "Independence within Europe" - it's all crap! p-)

[khukuri]

http://www.users.bigpond.com/rdoolan/Pix/lochnessmonster.jpg

FREEEDOM!!



hahahaahhh!!!

[MichaelF]

"Remember, they can take our lives, but they'll never take our BUUUUUUCCCKKKFAASSSSTTT!!!!!!!!!"