PDA

View Full Version : Who is the Russia's enemy?



Metastaz
12-01-2006, 05:40 PM
Source. (http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache:q7zM-JM5Yc4J:kommersant.com/p725703/r_527/NATO_summit/)
In Russian. (http://www.kommersant.ru/doc.html?docId=725703)


NATO Gets Energetic

The NATO (http://www.nato.int/) summit began yesterday in Riga. For the first time since the collapse of the Soviet Union, NATO leaders openly discussed potential threats posed by Moscow. NATO General Secretary Jaap de Hoop Scheffer stated yesterday that one of the key topics at the summit would be energy security. U.S. President George W. Bush (http://www.whitehouse.gov/president/gwbbio.html) stated that he supports the accession of Georgia (http://www.kommersant.com/doc.asp?id_doc=363467) and Ukraine to the organization.

NATO (http://www.nato.int/) for Energy

NATO officials announced on the eve of the summit that there would be two main topics of discussion: the current situation in Afghanistan, where 32,000 NATO troops are stationed, and the problem of the transformation-reformation of the alliance so that it remains a powerful, cohesive and vital organization. It was unclear for a long time just what kind of transformation would be discussed. NATO General Secretary Jaap de Hoop Scheffer stated firmly that no decisions on expansion would be made in Riga. So the change would not be quantitative. De Hoop Scheffer announced possible qualitative changes on the day the summit began. “Energy security is a problem that has a direct relation to NATO. I hope that the heads of states and governments will ask… what contribution NATO can make to the world energy dialog.” In other words, NATO does not intend to stay on the sidelines and any longer without intervening in the standoff between Russia and Europe. Rather, it wants to participate in it and is asking for the authority to do so.

De Hoop Scheffer's statement yesterday was not unexpected, especially after U.S. Senate Foreign Relations Committee Chairman Richard Lugar and made more aggressive proposals for a new NATO the day before. Lugar practically suggested that NATO be turned into an alliance of energy consumers to face off against Russia, which, in his mind, will engage in energy blackmail more and more often as the years go by. “In the coming decades, the most likely source of armed conflict in the European theater and the surrounding regions will be energy scarcity and manipulation…,” Lugar said. “Russia's shut off of energy deliveries to Ukraine demonstrated how tempting it is to use energy to achieve political aims… NATO must determine what steps it is willing to take if Poland, Germany, Hungary, Latvia or another member state is threatened as Ukraine was.” He left no doubt about who he thought NATO's opponent would be in a future war.

Lugar's intention was to equate an energy war with conventional war. “An attack using energy as a weapon can devastate a nation's economy and yield hundreds or even thousands of casualties,” he claimed. Consequently, the fifth article of the NATO charter, which equates an attack on one member with an attack on all members should be applied to energy relations, according to Lugar. Furthermore, he suggested devoting the upcoming Reforger military exercises to developing a scenario for providing assistance to a country that has fallen victim to “geostrategic blackmail.”

Lugar, like many American congressmen, has always allowed himself to speak more harshly in relation to Russia than representatives of the U.S. administration. Nonetheless, it should be noted that he has tremendous influence in the Republican Party and is fairly close to the White House. His statements cannot be considered a personal initiative. Most likely, Washington's official position is close to the one he stated and the idea of transforming NATO into military-energy bloc is supported by the White House.

Europe for Poland

The idea of forming some sort of energy union of Western powers has been around for months. Poland was always the biggest lobbyist for the idea, that is, after Russia and Germany agreed to build the Nord Stream natural gas pipeline across the Baltic Sea bed and Warsaw declared the need for solidarity in the face of the energy threat from the East. It is Poland that christened the energy alliance against Russia “Energy NATO.”

Most of Poland's European Union (http://www.europa.eu.int/) partners have never shared such an approach and have stated that it would be better to reach an agreement with Russia. The European Commission (http://europa.eu.int/comm/index_en.htm)'s “energy policy for Europe,” adopted in February of this year, was a compromise between the two European views on the energy dialog with Russia. It calls for European countries to have a common foreign policy on energy and to “revitalize” relations with Russia, and to seek alternative suppliers and solve their problems in a “spirit of solidarity.” The last formulation was a concession to Poland, which clearly wanted more. It wanted the EU to take on obligations to defend Poland in the event of a conflict with Russia.

Russia's curious response to the “Energy NATO” plan was a statement by Chairman of the Russian State Duma (http://www.duma.gov.ru/) Committee on Energy Valery Yazev on the need to set up a “gas OPEC (http://www.opec.org/).” Officially, Moscow has condemned both ideas. This summer, Russian Foreign Minister (http://www.mid.ru/) Sergey Lavrov said that there were no plans to form the “gas OPEC” and the idea of setting up an “Energy NATO” was confrontational.

Nevertheless, both Warsaw's and Moscow's idea live on. Two weeks ago, The Financial Times (http://news.ft.com/home/uk/) reported that a secret report commissioned by NATO stated that Russia is secretly continuing to work on the formation of a “gas OPEC” and is trying to draw Algeria, Libya, Qatar, Iran, Uzbekistan (http://www.kommersant.com/doc.asp?id_doc=353798) and Turkmenistan into it. That semi-fantastic report came exactly as another scandal between Moscow and Warsaw was gaining momentum before the Russia-EU summit in Helsinki. By vetoing the start of negotiations between Moscow and Brussels, Poland was seeking the same thing again – a guarantee that the EU would defend it in any disagreement with Moscow and take any move against Polish interests as an attack on all Europe. However, the European countries, which had already rejected the idea of an “Energy NATO” within the EU once, again did not support Poland and reacted with obvious annoyance. The German Foreign Office even stated that Warsaw's policy risked self-isolation.

That was when Washington came to the aid of its loyal ally. The U.S. had supported the Polish initiative to form and energy alliance in Europe from the start. But when the Europeans decided not to form an Energy NATO, and the U.S. saw fit to change the old NATO.

NATO without Borders

The current American plan to transform NATO, expansion plays a key role. The U.S. has already made the decision that the border of the alliance has to move farther east, although the decision to focus on internal transformation at this summit only gives candidates for membership a further chance to prepare. The shortlist of candidates is well known. The U.S. Senate passed a resolution last week supporting the admission of Georgia (http://www.kommersant.com/doc.asp?id_doc=363467), Albania, Macedonia and Croatia to NATO and allocating $20 million for the effort. U.S. President George W. Bush (http://www.whitehouse.gov/president/gwbbio.html) confirmed this again speaking before the summit. “We will continue to support Georgia's desire to become a NATO ally… NATO membership will be open to the Ukrainian people if they choose it,” he said.

Obviously, the current plan to enlarge the energy NATO in the CIS depends to a great extent on how successful Georgia's membership is. Notably, speaker of the Georgian parliament Nino Burjanadze was a special guest in Riga before the summit began. Her constant companions in Riga were Lugar and Latvian Defense Minister Atis Slakteris. “Perhaps the price of gas is the price we have to pay for out freedom,” Burjanadze told Lugar.

U.S. plans for NATO enlargement won't end there. Slovenian Foreign Minister Dimitrij Rupel stated yesterday that Serbia, Montenegro, Bosnia and Herzegovina may move up to a new level of partnership preliminarily to membership. Lugar stated before the summit that attracting Azerbaijan and Kazakhstan to NATO was an important goal. “I recommend that NATO focus especially on its relationships with Azerbaijan and Kazakhstan. While both countries have considerable work to do, eventual NATO membership must be on the table,” the senator said. The heightened attention paid to Azerbaijan and Kazakhstan – important energy suppliers – is easily explained by the new function Washington has developed for NATO.



Mikhail Zygar

"Sell us oil and gas as cheap as we say, or we'll bomb you."
Somebody clearly forgot who has one of two biggest nuclear stock in the world? Need a reminder?

Switek
12-01-2006, 05:42 PM
Who is the Russia's enemy?

me... :(














;)

Henry's Fork
12-01-2006, 05:43 PM
Who is Russia's enemy?

Sadly herself.

Jobu
12-01-2006, 05:48 PM
Clearly it's Finland.

Mr.K
12-01-2006, 06:15 PM
All of you!

AROUETLJ
12-01-2006, 06:16 PM
It's the BBC.

Vladrus
12-01-2006, 06:21 PM
nobody, we want peace... sadly wikings, napoleon and hitler did not know that

VPR
12-01-2006, 06:26 PM
nobody, we want peace... sadly wikings, napoleon and hitler did not know that

about Hitler, apparently his attack was preemptive because Stalin was going to attack while Hitler was busy on the western front, that is why such heavy losses were induced on the soviet army, because they were not ready for defence completely - this has been proved in a number of books now

as for the enemy, - alcohol

Loki77
12-01-2006, 06:34 PM
nobody, we want peace... sadly wikings, napoleon and hitler did not know that
Vikings, Teutonic Knights, Napoleon and Hitler were humiliated by the big polar bear...

I always believed in the cunning of the Russian people. Mainly in 2000 when the British press humiliated they. Looks today to Russia... Big nation leaving the "powerful west" of hot head...

Metastaz
12-01-2006, 06:34 PM
VPR, young man, don't read Rezun and Suvorov BS-books anymore.
That BS was chewed and spit out many times already.
Read memoirs of Reich top brass, for example - there's nothing about such reason for war.

Thor
12-01-2006, 06:43 PM
nobody, we want peace... sadly wikings, napoleon and hitler did not know that
Vikings founded Russia smartass

If you're thinking about some other war with us involved, you most likely started it. Russia has always been expansionistic.

Willy
12-01-2006, 06:44 PM
nobody, we want peace... sadly wikings, napoleon and hitler did not know that

Yet you first allied both Napoleon and Hitler, and where quite happy getting more land by conquest untill those alliances bite yer arse, so stop playing the victim card.

Metastaz
12-01-2006, 06:45 PM
Thor, we have nothing against modern "vikings" today. :lol:

Willy, read history schoolbook and stop shaming yourself.

Smersh
12-01-2006, 06:45 PM
about Hitler, apparently his attack was preemptive because Stalin was going to attack while Hitler was busy on the western front, that is why such heavy losses were induced on the soviet army, because they were not ready for defence completely - this has been proved in a number of books now

as for the enemy, - alcohol

by people like suvorov. If you know anything about the Soviet military in the 1930s you know it was incapable of carrying out a serious offensive. Take a look at the Red Armies performance in Finland. Many serious historians like Glantz have written convincing replies to this idea.

Thor
12-01-2006, 06:48 PM
Take a look at the Red Armies performance in Finland.
Now you're drawing the same conclusions Hitler did. Part right, part wrong.

Henry's Fork
12-01-2006, 06:52 PM
Willy, read history schoolbook and stop shaming yourself.

While i love Russia and think Putin is the man.(Bush could learn alot from him)

You guys did allie with the Nazis in the start of ww2.

I'mOnlyHalfPolish
12-01-2006, 06:53 PM
Yet you first allied both Napoleon and Hitler, and where quite happy getting more land by conquest untill those alliances bite yer arse, so stop playing the victim card.

hey shut up man Poland asked to be divided between Germany and Russia...what history book have you been reading, and Finland welcomed the soviets with open arms if i remember correctly [sarcasm off]

Smersh
12-01-2006, 06:53 PM
The idea that Stalin planned war against Germany, and the German attack was only pre-emptive is a joke. Attacking the Soviet Union for living space was one of the fundamental points in Hitlers foreign policy, he wrote this in Mein kampf.

Again, the war in Finland showed the Red army was in no, position to carry out a serious offensive. In fact, the red army was in the process of carrying out major reorganization and reform when it was attacked in 1941, again in no position to start a war.

these threads about the Soviet involvement during the start of ww2 are getting very annoying. Same thing over and over again. a constant attempt to push blame on the soviet union and not Germany. "germany was only trying to defend herself" is complete nonsense. and I don't want another red army-poland argument.

Switek
12-01-2006, 06:56 PM
hey shut up man Poland asked to be divided between Germany and Russia...what history book have you been reading, and Finland welcomed the soviets with open arms if i remember correctly [sarcasm off]

I knew somebody would reach essence... p-)

Willy
12-01-2006, 06:58 PM
Thor, we have nothing against modern "vikings" today. :lol:

Willy, read history schoolbook and stop shaming yourself.

Are you claiming that you don't know nothing about Treaties of Tilsit or Molotov-Ribbentrop pact?

Lazarou
12-01-2006, 07:02 PM
Who is the Russia's enemy?
Its indigenous peoples, apparently (http://www.mari.ee/eng/articles/polit/2005/10/02.htm).

[/sarcasm]

Loki77
12-01-2006, 07:04 PM
Vikings founded Russia smartass

If you're thinking about some other war with us involved, you most likely started it. Russia has always been expansionistic.

Wrong. We vikings that begin the war with the Russians. The old Vikings were bloodthirsty.

http://www.vikinganswerlady.com/varangians.shtml#WhoWereTheRus

Metastaz
12-01-2006, 07:04 PM
Strategic military deployment of Germany and USSR in 1941


http://img453.imageshack.us/img453/6923/8bcc254d49fff4152a2dh2.th.jpg (http://img453.imageshack.us/my.php?image=8bcc254d49fff4152a2dh2.jpg)
Here all Special Military Districts except Leningrad. Commentaries, they from below - 59 Soviet divisions in the first echelon (of them on the border, i.e. in the strip 50 km from it, only 39) against 149 German's.


http://img453.imageshack.us/img453/9177/530151817afff44ea40wk6.th.jpg (http://img453.imageshack.us/my.php?image=530151817afff44ea40wk6.jpg)

Diagram IV. Group of the armies of the Red Army and Wehrmacht in the strip of the Kiev Special and Odessa Military districts by June 22, 1941.

Smersh
12-01-2006, 07:06 PM
those maps clearly show, a red army that is about to attack. :)

Metastaz
12-01-2006, 07:09 PM
While i love Russia and think Putin is the man.(Bush could learn alot from him)

You guys did allie with the Nazis in the start of ww2.
You heard the song but got it wrong.

Non-aggression pact != alliance.




those maps clearly show, a red army that is about to attack. :)
Smoke more pot, and you will see a nuclear silo. ;)



hey shut up man Poland asked to be divided between Germany and Russia...what history book have you been reading,
Blah blah blah.
It's a shame to know your own history so badly. But Polish always had a weak memory...
Read in schoolboks what Poland did before it was divided.
Keywords: Munich agreement.

Switek
12-01-2006, 07:18 PM
Strategic military deployment of Germany and USSR in 1941


http://img453.imageshack.us/img453/6923/8bcc254d49fff4152a2dh2.th.jpg (http://img453.imageshack.us/my.php?image=8bcc254d49fff4152a2dh2.jpg)
Here all Special Military Districts except Leningrad. Commentaries, they from below - 59 Soviet divisions in the first echelon (of them on the border, i.e. in the strip 50 km from it, only 39) against 149 German's.


http://img453.imageshack.us/img453/9177/530151817afff44ea40wk6.th.jpg (http://img453.imageshack.us/my.php?image=530151817afff44ea40wk6.jpg)

Diagram IV. Group of the armies of the Red Army and Wehrmacht in the strip of the Kiev Special and Odessa Military districts by June 22, 1941.

I'd love to see copies of oryginals made between April - June 1941 with some logistic plans like warehouses etc p-)

Durandal
12-01-2006, 07:25 PM
As posted earlier, sadly, Russia is its own worst enemy.

Henry's Fork
12-01-2006, 07:25 PM
You heard the song but got it wrong.

Non-aggression pact != alliance.



I see the dNile is not only a river in Egypt.

What about that catchy tune called the September 13, 1939?

Metastaz
12-01-2006, 07:35 PM
Are you claiming that you don't know nothing about Treaties of TilsitThat shame completely on the Alexander I.
As you know for sure, not russian common people nor the nobles accept that.

But I was talking about "Nazi-USSR alliance" BS.



or Molotov-Ribbentrop pact?Non-agression pact + division of spheres of interests about lesser states, nothing more.

Now, slowly and clearly - where did you saw alliance?

Kilgor
12-01-2006, 07:37 PM
That shame completely on the Alexander I.
As you know for sure, not russian common people nor the nobles accept that.

But I was talking about "Nazi-USSR alliance" BS.


Non-agression pact + division of spheres of interests about lesser states, nothing more.

Now, slowly and clearly - where did you saw alliance?

And a trade agreement which allowed germany to get material around the British Blockaid at the time. And the little bit about a joint invasion of Poland.

I'mOnlyHalfPolish
12-01-2006, 07:44 PM
Blah blah blah.
It's a shame to know your own history so badly. But Polish always had a weak memory...
Read in schoolboks what Poland did before it was divided.
Keywords: Munich agreement.

im an American...

the Munich Agreement...I'm talking about Poland not Czechoslovakia, Poland got the Zaolzie throught the agreement but that had belonged to Poland as early as 1343...and that was a small piece of land...the Munich Agreement had more to do with the Sudetenland and the Czechs and Germans

what did Poland do...? they refused to attack the bolsheviks under order of the entente...helping the russians continue their war against the whites...? or perhaps it was the Polish-Soviet war...? maybe they didn't appreciate the russian participation in the partisions and were fighting for the independence and existence of their country...?

Metastaz
12-01-2006, 08:00 PM
I'mOnlyHalfPolish, can you read russian?
Because in that case I have a very interesting resource pack for you.

I'mOnlyHalfPolish
12-01-2006, 08:00 PM
I'mOnlyHalfPolish, can you read russian?
Because in that case I have a very interesting resource pack for you.

unfortunately no i cannot

Lardylarry
12-01-2006, 08:16 PM
Vikings, Teutonic Knights, Napoleon and Hitler were humiliated by the big polar bear...

I always believed in the cunning of the Russian people. Mainly in 2000 when the British press humiliated they. Looks today to Russia... Big nation leaving the "powerful west" of hot head...

more like russian weather that actually brought down Napoleon, not the russians themselves. However, I totally agree with what happened to Hitler and his army. I read that a lot of soviet soldiers would rush out of their trenches without any guns because of insufficient supplies and would have to pick up guns from their fallen comrades as they charged along with nothing to hold on to. Pretty amazing stuff.

pr0
12-01-2006, 08:42 PM
Who is the Russia's enemy?

me... :(


why? btw i`ve seen very interesting discussian about polish-russian relationshpis yesterday

pr0
12-01-2006, 08:42 PM
Clearly it's Finland.
why do you think so?

pr0
12-01-2006, 08:45 PM
Vikings founded Russia smartass

its only hypothesis, and they didn`t found Russia, they were called to rule the platoon of the army

Noble713
12-01-2006, 08:46 PM
more like russian weather that actually brought down Napoleon, not the russians themselves. However, I totally agree with what happened to Hitler and his army. I read that a lot of soviet soldiers would rush out of their trenches without any guns because of insufficient supplies and would have to pick up guns from their fallen comrades as they charged along with nothing to hold on to. Pretty amazing stuff.

:roll: Enemy at the Gates is not a reliable depiction of the RKKA.

pr0
12-01-2006, 08:46 PM
You guys did allie with the Nazis in the start of ww2.
did allie only becouse western countries let him to invade Czechoslovakia

pr0
12-01-2006, 08:52 PM
im an American...

the Munich Agreement...I'm talking about Poland not Czechoslovakia, Poland got the Zaolzie throught the agreement but that had belonged to Poland as early as 1343...and that was a small piece of land...the Munich Agreement had more to do with the Sudetenland and the Czechs and Germans

what did Poland do...? they refused to attack the bolsheviks under order of the entente...helping the russians continue their war against the whites...? or perhaps it was the Polish-Soviet war...? maybe they didn't appreciate the russian participation in the partisions and were fighting for the independence and existence of their country...?
Poland didn`t let soviet army move to Czechoslovakia to defend it. also Poland had some russian land after wars at 20th. and also Poland itself had imperialistic plans for Belorus and Ukraine (Poland from sea to sea).

everyone is fighting for the independence and existence of their country. that is understandable, but hardly argument

VPR
12-01-2006, 09:49 PM
VPR, young man, don't read Rezun and Suvorov BS-books anymore.
That BS was chewed and spit out many times already.
Read memoirs of Reich top brass, for example - there's nothing about such reason for war.

Rezun and Suvorov are the same person, and why not read them? he proves his points,

pr0
12-01-2006, 09:53 PM
Rezun and Suvorov are the same person, and why not read them? he proves his points,
http://www.lib.ru/HISTORY/ISAEW_A/antisuv_10mifs.txt

Drako
12-01-2006, 10:27 PM
Poland didn`t let soviet army move to Czechoslovakia to defend it. also Poland had some russian land after wars at 20th. and also Poland itself had imperialistic plans for Belorus and Ukraine (Poland from sea to sea).

everyone is fighting for the independence and existence of their country. that is understandable, but hardly argument

Before '39 Belorus and Ukraine for Poland were more like today's Chechenya for Russia with the difference that Belorus and Ukraine have gained independence by external decisions.

As for Chechoslovakia, we didn't let soviet army defend it cos we'd have to let soviet army to travel through Poland. No country would have agreed for that.

Anyway, why all threads about Russians must end at history lesson?

Metastaz
12-01-2006, 10:32 PM
Enemy at the Gates is not a reliable depiction of the RKKA. It's a usual Hollywood tall-tale. In other words, big BS.



Rezun and Suvorov are the same person, and why not read them? he proves his points,
May be you should read Fomenko, too?
http://warrax.net/58/chrono.html




Before '39 Belorus and Ukraine for Poland were more like today's Chechenya for Russia with the difference that Belorus and Ukraine have gained independence by external decisions.
Belorussians and ukrainians massacred thousands of Pole families in Belorus and Ukraine?
Belorussians and ukrainians arranged acts of terror on Poland territory?
Belorussian and ukrainian gangs are terrorized Poles in their homeland?



As for Chechoslovakia, we didn't let soviet army defend it cos we'd have to let soviet army to travel through Poland. No country would have agreed for that.
Also you were happy to swallow piece of Chechoslovakia for yourself, and you dare to blame USSR for the same thing?



Anyway, why all threads about Russians must end at history lesson?
Because many people obviosly need it. Especially the ones who are sure the flag on Reichstag was installed by private Rian.

PolishKhalsa
12-01-2006, 10:40 PM
..
Anyway, why all threads about Russians must end at history lesson?

Because Homo Sovieticus is not yet extinct.

ZeroZen
12-01-2006, 10:43 PM
Who is Russia's enemy?


http://www.eden.rutgers.edu/~brchin/Pictures/grey%20goose.jpg

VPR
12-01-2006, 10:52 PM
I said that first p-)

I'mOnlyHalfPolish
12-01-2006, 10:53 PM
I said that first p-)

yes but picture or it didnt happen

Kilgor
12-01-2006, 11:07 PM
Alcoholism, and a pathological belief in authoritarianism.

Metastaz
12-01-2006, 11:16 PM
And vicious white bears, who walking on the streets and attacking people.

newb
12-02-2006, 01:03 AM
Who is Russia's enemy?


http://www.eden.rutgers.edu/~brchin/Pictures/grey%20goose.jpg

oh hell no! not grey goose! seriously, it is great vodka.

i tend to agree with the previous poster though - about Homo Sovieticus :)

TR1
12-02-2006, 01:36 AM
Who is the Russia's enemy?

me... :(














;)

Russia loves you.

GazB
12-02-2006, 04:55 AM
If you know anything about the Soviet military in the 1930s you know it was incapable of carrying out a serious offensive. Take a look at the Red Armies performance in Finland.

Or you could also look at Zhukovs performance in Mongolia just before operations in Finland.
All Finland showed was a large mass of conscripts armed with bolt action rifles have problems fighting SMG equipped fanatics on their home ground. (The US found something similar in Vietnam, Soviets in Afghanistan etc etc)


You guys did allie with the Nazis in the start of ww2.

Two important facts about the rippentropp pact. First Stalin went to Churchill and asked what an alliance with Britain would get him. Put yourself in Stalins position... a partnership with Britain would get you open war with Germany with an ally in no position to offer you any help or support whatsoever. A partnership with germany would offer you half of Poland which would give you more space which equalled more time when you eventually faced Germany... which you knew was inevidible.
Second fact: When Japan found out about the Rippentropp pact they vowed to use Germany but never trust her. Because of the RT pact the Japanese never looked to siberia to start a second front agaisnt the Soviets.


hey shut up man Poland asked to be divided between Germany and Russia...what history book have you been reading, and Finland welcomed the soviets with open arms if i remember correctly

And Poland didn't grab any land... say when Germany invaded Czechoslovakia... No... it was only the Soviets that took land... everyone else was liberating land from its rightful owners...


And a trade agreement which allowed germany to get material around the British Blockaid at the time. And the little bit about a joint invasion of Poland.

Up to that time Britain was no ally of the Soviets. Why would the Soviets choose to ally with Britain over the Germans? As far as the Soviet were concerned they had no friends in Europe, but there were countries they could use and they used them.


I read that a lot of soviet soldiers would rush out of their trenches without any guns because of insufficient supplies and would have to pick up guns from their fallen comrades as they charged along with nothing to hold on to. Pretty amazing stuff.

Hollywood would like you to believe that happened much more often than it really did. It was WWI that the Russians were poorly equipped for war. For WWII they were reasonably well equipped in rifles. The exceptions were when they massed forces where production couldn't keep pace with the rate at which they conscripted soldiers. Most of the time however the Soviets were properly equipped with rifles and SMGs.


Enemy at the Gates is not a reliable depiction of the RKKA.

Absolutely. The Soviets had already learned that frontal charges were not sustainable... they were going to run out of bodies before the germans ran out of bullets. Zhukov himself banned frontal charges. The predominant weapon in Stalingrad were SMGs and antitank rifles as well as hand grenades. In fact look at urban combat manuals for NATO. Most of these tactics were created in Stalingrad by the Russians. (ie don't use doorways... blow holes in internal walls so you don't have to walk down streets etc etc.)



Anyway to the subject in hand.

Reading the quoted text in the first post I'd say American Congressmen and the new members of NATO.

Funny that they are trying to create a situation where NATO can attack Russia if Russia decides to alter its delivery of energy. Still if they can intervene in Kosovo and Afghanistan, which have nothing to do with the NATO Charter. (The serbs never attacked a NATO member and Afghanistan is not even in Europe... why didn't NATO help Britain when Argentina invaded the Malvinas...)

daily666
12-02-2006, 05:27 AM
And vicious white bears, who walking on the streets and attacking people.

And the dumbarse of the week too...

kosse
12-02-2006, 05:47 AM
Or you could also look at Zhukovs performance in Mongolia just before operations in Finland.
All Finland showed was a large mass of conscripts armed with bolt action rifles have problems fighting SMG equipped fanatics on their home ground. (The US found something similar in Vietnam, Soviets in Afghanistan etc etc)


Finnish soldiers were conscripts (or should we say reservists, the point is they were not professional soldiers) as well. Just ordinary people, fathers and sons. In that light, comparison to religious fanatics like mujahideen is rather funny. In addition, army had only 4000 Suomi KPs in the beginning of the winter war..I don't have numbers from the end of the war but I doubt they managed to much make enough in three months to make a real difference. Later in the Continuation war the the goal was to have one Suomi smg in every infantry squad .

Clearday-TRForce
12-02-2006, 06:09 AM
Russia's best enemy's ALCOHOL.


(I have seen many (thousands) Russians in Turkey while their holiday drinking incredible alcohol, they use it in breakfasts,launches and dinners and as a late night thing.

pr0
12-02-2006, 06:10 AM
Before '39 Belorus and Ukraine for Poland were more like today's Chechenya for Russia

what do you mean?


As for Chechoslovakia, we didn't let soviet army defend it cos we'd have to let soviet army to travel through Poland. No country would have agreed for that.

and also becouse Poland wanted occupy some part of Czehoslovakia too. at that time it was very easy to defeat Hitler but noone from western countries did that. so what was the reason to allie with France and UK if they didnt defent their allie.


Anyway, why all threads about Russians must end at history lesson?

not we started that

daily666
12-02-2006, 06:11 AM
Why don't we go back to the original thread subject?

pr0
12-02-2006, 06:12 AM
Because Homo Sovieticus is not yet extinct.hello, Homo antisoveticus polska imperialist