Iraq : More Limits Sought for Private Security Teams

[front]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A6612-2004Apr12.html

More Limits Sought for Private Security Teams

By Mary Pat Flaherty and Dana Priest
Washington Post Staff Writers
Tuesday, April 13, 2004; Page A15

With hostilities flaring in Iraq, the U.S.-led authority wants to tighten controls over the surging number of private armed security teams being hired to protect U.S. government agencies and contractors involved in rebuilding.

With an estimated 20,000 private security workers on the ground, the Coalition Provisional Authority is increasingly concerned about the quality of the security teams, the weapons they use and the rules that will govern them after June 30, when the authority transfers political power to an interim Iraqi government.

"It's an important issue that needs to be addressed, and that's what we're doing," said Bryan Whitman, a Pentagon spokesman.

A draft CPA document on vetting and registering the security firms said many "are already operating in Iraq without the benefit of appropriate registration and authorization of the Ministry of Interior." "Appropriate mechanisms must be put into place" to register them, the draft said.

The draft plan would require security companies to list all employees working in Iraq, and to provide copies of the contracts under which they are working and the serial numbers of their weapons. If the company sought to increase its weapons cache after its initial registration, it would have to coordinate with the Ministry of Interior, the draft states. Weapons could be carried by employees only while "on duty" and would be stored in an armory or "secure facility" otherwise.

"Due consideration will be given to the need to vet companies, their directors and employees in order to ensure that criminal elements are identified and to avoid situations such as militias trying to legitimize themselves," according to the draft.

Many operational details are spelled out only in the contracts between security firms and the companies and government agencies that hire them, according to several private security firms.

The CPA now restricts the weapons private security teams may use to small arms with ammunition as large as 7.62mm and to some other defensive weapons. A Dec. 31 coalition rule spells out circumstances under which security firms can use deadly force, including self-defense, the defense of people or property specified in their contracts, and the defense of civilians.

Coalition contractors and their employees currently are subject to the legal jurisdiction of their parent countries because there is no Iraqi legal system, a CPA order states.

But with the June 30 handover, that condition "becomes a major issue," and "there is not a lot of clarity yet" on what laws will govern security firms, said Mike Baker, chief executive of D.C.-based Diligence LLC, which provides security for both government and private operations in Iraq.

Attempts to coordinate operations between private security firms and the military -- and operations among the companies themselves -- have been underway for months. But that pace has quickened.

The CPA's program management office is reviewing bids on a master contract to coordinate security among the 10 largest prime contractors and their subcontractors working on $18.4 billion in U.S.-backed reconstruction as they deploy throughout Iraq. In the meantime, the program management office is "trying to get at least some level of intelligence sanitized from the military that could be given to contractors," said Capt. Bruce A. Cole, spokesman for the program management office in Baghdad.

As violence increased in the last two weeks, private security firms learned that they could not rely on U.S. or coalition forces to rescue them under attack. The companies have begun to band together to share information and to coordinate their own rescue teams for life-threatening situations.

Col. Jill Morgenthaler, a spokeswoman for the U.S. military in Baghdad, said "the military cannot guarantee the safety of civilians" in Iraq. "When we can, we respond."

Military operations against insurgents take precedence, although commanders can decide to rescue civilians depending "on mission, situation, conditions," Morgenthaler said by e-mail.

One CPA official said the unexpected central role played by contractors in Iraq has forced the U.S. government to pay more attention to what everyone had expected to be a low-key, auxiliary protection force. "We're growing the capacity of the industry in a way we did not anticipate," said the official, who spoke only on the condition of anonymity. "The industry realizes they have to impose some kind of standards" on their employees.

The brutal killings of four American security contractors in Fallujah two weeks ago prompted 13 Democratic senators led by Jack Reed (R.I.), to ask the Defense Department to provide a tally of how many private armed non-Iraqi security personnel are in Iraq. In their letter, the senators said that "security in a hostile fire area is a classic military mission. Delegating this mission to private contractors raises serious questions."

"Policy is way overdue in this area," Reed said. Not only do troops need better guidance on dealing with private guards, he said, but also the CPA should want assurances that insurgents cannot infiltrate the companies as "may already be occurring in the new Iraqi police and civil defense forces."

[mustamato]

About time. Iraq feels like a sandbox with armed mercenaries right now,
and I wonder how that brings any "freedom" to the Iraqi people.

[Uncle Sam]

About time. Iraq feels like a sandbox with armed mercenaries right now,
and I wonder how that brings any "freedom" to the Iraqi people.

Well, if those "Iraqis" would stop kidnapping them and blowing up the trucks, maybe things would be better, huh.

[TALOS]

About time. Iraq feels like a sandbox with armed mercenaries right now,
and I wonder how that brings any "freedom" to the Iraqi people.

Well, if those "Iraqis" would stop kidnapping them and blowing up the trucks, maybe things would be better, huh.
HAHA, thats the whole crux of it. These guys came over to do a security job of protecting buildings and convoys from thugs and criminals and got pulled into a war by the terrorists who targeted them.

[Gordon]

Thing is these PMC's have been around for decades. I think you'll find, though I have no sources, that governments have been handing "dodgy" work to these kinda companies for a long time as it gives the respective government deniability, among other reasons. It's only in such a publicly viewable war that people have begun to take notice of them.

To add to this, there have been a few posts recently about SF types leaving to work for PMC's, well this has always been an option and is nothing new. Maybe in Iraq the rewards are bigger than normal, but as far as I understand it there always have been big rewards if you can get the right contract. Also i'm sure there is a higher demand in Iraq with general defence cuts etc.

Just an interesting point I thought.

I have no first hand knowledge of this subject so if I got anything wrong please would those in the know correct me.

[Gordon]

About time. Iraq feels like a sandbox with armed mercenaries right now,
and I wonder how that brings any "freedom" to the Iraqi people.

Well, if those "Iraqis" would stop kidnapping them and blowing up the trucks, maybe things would be better, huh.
HAHA, thats the whole crux of it. These guys came over to do a security job of protecting buildings and convoys from thugs and criminals and got pulled into a war by the terrorists who targeted them.

I expect you may find that some of them are training Iraqi policemen, possibly training Iraqi soldiers among other things rather than simply guarding the reconstruction sites. Well, for example, there's a bunch of them doing close protection for Bremer.

As I said above, I don't have first hand knowledge so please correct me if you know different.

[Uncle Sam]

Well, if those "Iraqis" would stop kidnapping them and blowing up the trucks, maybe things would be better, huh.

Them = The contractors not the Private Security people

[TALOS]

Well, if those "Iraqis" would stop kidnapping them and blowing up the trucks, maybe things would be better, huh.

Them = The contractors not the Private Security people
I understood the "contractors" to mean the PMC's private military contractors? my bad if I misunderstood

[TALOS]

edit....sorry...double post

[TALOS]

About time. Iraq feels like a sandbox with armed mercenaries right now,
and I wonder how that brings any "freedom" to the Iraqi people.

Well, if those "Iraqis" would stop kidnapping them and blowing up the trucks, maybe things would be better, huh.
HAHA, thats the whole crux of it. These guys came over to do a security job of protecting buildings and convoys from thugs and criminals and got pulled into a war by the terrorists who targeted them.

I expect you may find that some of them are training Iraqi policemen, possibly training Iraqi soldiers among other things rather than simply guarding the reconstruction sites. Well, for example, there's a bunch of them doing close protection for Bremer.

As I said above, I don't have first hand knowledge so please correct me if you know different.
From what I have read you are correct, but the best people to ask are argyll and TP when they get a chance to answer because they are there and therefore know what is all entailed

[weedman]

I'm really scared about this development.

While states are always interested in fast endings of any conflict, especially military ones, the arising industry of private security companies is not.
Quite the converse, this industry is depending on lasting low-level conflicts.

I know, that my opinion is probably a bit contrary to yours, but I hope you tolerate this.

[usa320]

I dont think Private mercs shuld be hired by the government to guard CPA facilities and military bases. That should be left to the military. They have more resources and support. I would allow Mercs to be guarding industry and construction though, and if private building or aid companies wanted to hire guards, id allow that.

[Yard Ape]

Thing is these PMC's have been around for decades. ... It's only in such a publicly viewable war that people have begun to take notice of them.

To add to this, there have been a few posts recently about SF types leaving to work for PMC's, well this has always been an option and is nothing new. Maybe in Iraq the rewards are bigger than normal, but as far as I understand it there always have been big rewards if you can get the right contract. Yes, this is not new and it has never been limited to just the SF guys. Joe Infanteer has long been able to get jobs in this feild: Protecting oil in the middle east, protecting diamonds in Africa, protecting the wealthy in various parts of S. America, and advising governments on security & terrorism in the pacific. A Sgt could easily walk into a high paying managment job in any of these areas.


I expect you may find that some of them are training Iraqi policemen, possibly training Iraqi soldiers among other things rather than simply guarding the reconstruction sites. 'Reconstruction' is about more than physical construction & repair projects. It also includes training the people neccesary for the country to run itself. I have seen photos of NYPD pers in Iraq to do just this.


I dont think Private mercs shuld be hired by the government to guard CPA facilities and military bases. That should be left to the military. They have more resources and support. I would allow Mercs to be guarding industry and construction though, and if private building or aid companies wanted to hire guards, id allow that.That is what is happening, but you cannot just have a bunch of western yahoos running around in Iraq with guns. The Government controls who is allowed & what rules they must work by.

[Argyll]

I dont think Private mercs shuld be hired by the government to guard CPA facilities and military bases. That should be left to the military. They have more resources and support. I would allow Mercs to be guarding industry and construction though, and if private building or aid companies wanted to hire guards, id allow that.

No they don't..........period,as you have no idea about the roles of contractors here in Iraq,I'd suggest you do not speculate either.How many civilains do you think are out on the task?,and they need 2 PSD each,you also need a driver,The US Army cannot cope with this ,and this is why we do it.If there are 500 civilains .......you do the maths.
We also have ROE's...very similar to the UK/USA's ROE's.

Mustamoto....................shut your Fuc*ing trap once and for all,you are seriously pissing me off..............do me a favour and go play tig with a train........when I return from Baghdad I'm personally going to start editing your anti American posts,why don't you do us all a favour and FOK OFF!!!
People like you(Cowardly snivelling little bast*rds)just get on my ****.!

[Javehn]

Go Argyll !! We love you mate, stay safe there ! Don't let the camels on your nerves .

[UkrainianAmerican]

I dont think Private mercs shuld be hired by the government to guard CPA facilities and military bases. That should be left to the military. They have more resources and support. I would allow Mercs to be guarding industry and construction though, and if private building or aid companies wanted to hire guards, id allow that.

No they don't..........period,as you have no idea about the roles of contractors here in Iraq,I'd suggest you do not speculate either.How many civilains do you think are out on the task?,and they need 2 PSD each,you also need a driver,The US Army cannot cope with this ,and this is why we do it.If there are 500 civilains .......you do the maths.
We also have ROE's...very similar to the UK/USA's ROE's.

Mustamoto....................shut your Fuc*ing trap once and for all,you are seriously pissing me off..............do me a favour and go play tig with a train........when I return from Baghdad I'm personally going to start editing your anti American posts,why don't you do us all a favour and FOK OFF!!!
People like you(Cowardly snivelling little bast*rds)just get on my ****.!
Hey argyll :hug:
How it going man?

[weedman]

Mustamoto....................shut your Fuc*ing trap once and for all,you are seriously pissing me off..............do me a favour and go play tig with a train........when I return from Baghdad I'm personally going to start editing your anti American posts,why don't you do us all a favour and FOK OFF!!!
That is also called freedom of speech, one elemental right of a democracy.

Go Mustamoto, go :lol:

[TALOS]

Mustamoto....................shut your Fuc*ing trap once and for all,you are seriously pissing me off..............do me a favour and go play tig with a train........when I return from Baghdad I'm personally going to start editing your anti American posts,why don't you do us all a favour and FOK OFF!!!
That is also called freedom of speech, one elemental right of a democracy.

Go Mustamoto, go :lol:
O I just love these freedom of speach people who seem to forget that it only applies to the government not stopping you. Private groups and individuals are not required to put up with lies and half truths that are meant strictly to put down their country. In an american forum americans will have the right to remove said lies and half truths when they deem it necessary. Mustamatos comment was one of those posts designed to piss off and give a negative spin to what is happening in Iraq.
Musty, you do know those pmc's arent running around gunning people down or arresting them and torturing them or making members of a family disappear in the early morning right? I knew you did and therefore you also know that they arent losing freedoms to them so why even say it?

[Maine Finn]

Mustamoto....................shut your Fuc*ing trap once and for all,you are seriously pissing me off..............do me a favour and go play tig with a train........when I return from Baghdad I'm personally going to start editing your anti American posts,why don't you do us all a favour and FOK OFF!!!
That is also called freedom of speech, one elemental right of a democracy.

Go Mustamoto, go :lol:

Shut up. Even though Mustamato's a Finn, he tends to cross the line too many times. May herds of reindeer trample me for saying this, but there's a bad image of the nationality being created in the eyes of those unable to tell the difference, and perhaps in the eyes of those who can.

It's the same no matter what nationality you are. Screw off and you give everyone else a bad reputation.

Now I better quit, or else Caraway won't send me that bottle of vodka he promised for my birthday. :D

EDIT:

By the way, Argyll, how are things? Are you going to bring me back anything illegal? I need something to fence on the local markets. p-)

[mustamato]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/2403517.stm

And as said earlier in this thread, and also in the article this is of course nothing
new with PMC´s (what does that stand for by the way, private... something?)

In example a Belgian mercenary has admitted that he piloted the Fouga Magister
that shot down UN´s general secretary´s DC-3 back in the 60´s. He fought for
the Katangese rebels in Congo. The general secretary Dag Hammarskjöld was
killed when the plane was shot down.

http://www.ailes-militaires-belges.be/images/fiches/fouga/magister.jpg
A Fouga Magister by the way

[Uninen]

About time. Iraq feels like a sandbox with armed mercenaries right now,
and I wonder how that brings any "freedom" to the Iraqi people.

What a bunch of tight asses, i mean the man here is just stating the truth and all you people start cooking off like rifle rounds in a bon fire...

:)

[TALOS]

About time. Iraq feels like a sandbox with armed mercenaries right now,
and I wonder how that brings any "freedom" to the Iraqi people.

What a bunch of tight asses, i mean the man here is just stating the truth and all you people start cooking off like rifle rounds in a bon fire...

:)
Uninen, you openly hate americans, if it was said about russians or whatever country you believe in you would be the first to freak.
I already stated in my earlier post why I felt it was said strictly to piss peeps off.

Musty, you do know those pmc's arent running around gunning people down or arresting them and torturing them or making members of a family disappear in the early morning right? I knew you did and therefore you also know that they arent losing freedoms to them so why even say it?

[Tane Angle]

I wonder how that brings any "freedom" to the Iraqi people.

The question is, would the situation be better or worse if we were all to pull out? The PMCs in Iraq hire credible, professional people.

It's smart tactically because they wouldn't go in with people they didn't trust completely, that's just the facts of combat. It is not smart tactically to go in with a civil-liberties infringing bully because a bully will get the whole team shot by pissing off people. It's not smart tactically to go in with a rapist, because rapists will get the whole team shot when the victims whole town comes after the perpetrator.

And it's simply smart business to go in with those people. If a company's employees commit an atrocity or do things that cause riots and attacks, then the company won't be hired for future jobs. Take McDonald's-if everytime you went to McDonald's your food was horrible, you'd probably end up going to Burger King instead. Thus, it is in the best interest of a company-be it a PMC or a fast food place-to keep the customer happy. Dead Americans won't make the one customer-the US Government-happy, and being a bully won't make the other customer-the Iraqi people-very happy either.

Therefore, even for the people who are not there to see for themselves, it is logical to think that the PMCs are behaving as professionally and with as much restraint and minimal force as possible, no?

Have a good one all, and as always, just some thoughts...

[mustamato]

Yeah Uninen really pisses me of as well, so only in Finnish here for him :slap: (sorry):

Ihanat nämä jätkät, erittäin tuo joka lupasi muuntaa minun tekstiä heti
kun hän palaa Irakista. Kuulostaa vähä siltä että hän on opettelemassa
irakilaisille demokratiaa, ja sitä "puheen vapautta". Ensin ne sanoi että ne
oli Irakissa sen takia että niillä oli näitä "ydinaseita jne". Kun niitä ei
löytynyt mistään aloitettiin väittää että ne oli sielä antamassa irakilaisille
vapautta. Ne taisi unohtaa myös sen. Mitä ne nytten haluaa sielä sitten?


Musty, you do know those pmc's arent running around gunning people down or arresting them and torturing them or making members of a family disappear in the early morning right? I knew you did and therefore you also know that they arent losing freedoms to them so why even say it?

No but how do they bring freedom to the average Iraqi? There is clearly problems,
hence the "need for more strict rules for private contractors", as this thread
started with. What exactly those problems might be, I don´t know, but obviously
they exist.


Therefore, even for the people who are not there to see for themselves, it is logical to think that the PMCs are behaving as professionally and with as much restraint and minimal force as possible, no?

I don´t doubt that most of them are very professional, ex-SF, ex-officers or
whatever. The problem is rather that they can do things that a regular grunt
can´t. In example use this new fancy Le Mat (I think it was, anyway you probably
know which one I mean) ammunition. A soldier can´t, but a civilian can, and
well again, it´s not really me that see a need for more limits, it´s the one that
wrote the article.

[Red]

I wonder how that brings any "freedom" to the Iraqi people.

The question is, would the situation be better or worse if we were all to pull out? The PMCs in Iraq hire credible, professional people.

It's smart tactically because they wouldn't go in with people they didn't trust completely, that's just the facts of combat. It is not smart tactically to go in with a civil-liberties infringing bully because a bully will get the whole team shot by pissing off people. It's not smart tactically to go in with a rapist, because rapists will get the whole team shot when the victims whole town comes after the perpetrator.

And it's simply smart business to go in with those people. If a company's employees commit an atrocity or do things that cause riots and attacks, then the company won't be hired for future jobs. Take McDonald's-if everytime you went to McDonald's your food was horrible, you'd probably end up going to Burger King instead. Thus, it is in the best interest of a company-be it a PMC or a fast food place-to keep the customer happy. Dead Americans won't make the one customer-the US Government-happy, and being a bully won't make the other customer-the Iraqi people-very happy either.

Therefore, even for the people who are not there to see for themselves, it is logical to think that the PMCs are behaving as professionally and with as much restraint and minimal force as possible, no?

Have a good one all, and as always, just some thoughts...
Tane Angel,why do you bother talking to this guy,it is like talking to a deaf person,they only see the movement of you lips

[TALOS]

Musty, you do know those pmc's arent running around gunning people down or arresting them and torturing them or making members of a family disappear in the early morning right? I knew you did and therefore you also know that they arent losing freedoms to them so why even say it?

No but how do they bring freedom to the average Iraqi? They are there to protect workers and buildings that the Iraqis need to rebuild a firm and stable country (the same stability that the insurgents actions are trying to stop) they are there to help, not to enforce! they do not act as soldiers but as security, private security maybe but hired by the military to protect the things that the military just doesnt have the manpower for.
There is clearly problems, hence the "need for more strict rules for private contractors", as this thread started with. What exactly those problems might be, I don´t know, but obviously they exist.


Therefore, even for the people who are not there to see for themselves, it is logical to think that the PMCs are behaving as professionally and with as much restraint and minimal force as possible, no?

I don´t doubt that most of them are very professional, ex-SF, ex-officers or
whatever. The problem is rather that they can do things that a regular grunt
can´t. In example use this new fancy Le Mat (I think it was, anyway you probably
know which one I mean) ammunition. A soldier can´t, but a civilian can, and
well again, it´s not really me that see a need for more limits, it´s the one that
wrote the article.
I can write all sorts of articles that doesnt mean my take on it is correct. Others would debate the authors of the articles that say the pmc's are wrong or have too much leeway. and just because they think that doesnt mean that the pmc's have misused that leeway, it could as easily be that they see a "possible" problem in the future. < just my opinion there.

[Tane Angle]

Regarding that ammunition, what is more human, shooting someone with over-penetrating ammunition with will still kill the person but only after hours of slowly bleeding to death, or getting it over with in an instant? Of course, that brings up the whole issue of "Are the Geneva Conventions outdated?" and all that. p-) I'd say that on the whole, the companies are doing more good than bad. Should there be more set rules? Perhaps. But my guess is that any rules that would be enacted are already practiced by the companies.

By the way, Benibo, I don't know if everyone's deaf, but even if they are, it's helpful to read my own thoughts, so that I can reasses what I think. Sort of like a diary, I suppose. Besides, it reminds me to not mess up, as there are lots of people watching our actions over there. Not that I was going to go on a crime spree anyways, but it's a healthy reminder.

Have a good one, and just some thoughts...

[Flagg]

One thing I've learned, based on Argyll's most recent post is:

( 1 NGO + 2 PSD + 1 driver ) *X NGO pers = $taggering Cost

I'm guessing the overhead for operating and protecting a SINGLE NGO per could approximate $1 million per annum...scary number

I'm curious to learn how flexible funding for Iraq is.....I'm guessing every DAY security remains untenable is $50-100 million in extra unbudgeted direct costs....a couple more months of security challenges may mean Bush goes with cap in hand for more money to Congress....not good

As I suspect even the US with its enormous wealth will be hard pressed to adequetely fund sufficient reconstruction PERSONNEL costs, let alone the capital expenditures required for rebuilding until Iraqis oil revenue ramp up(minus external debt and war reparations costs).

[Uninen]

Tane Angle,

About the ammunition..... one thing i know that if its assault rifle (better yet like here carbine..) i dont expect to get killed when shot in my bottom....

I think its brutal over kill, if its true, which i belive it is....

But then again thing or two might be said of Russian standard 5.45 PS ammo also.... (which are also dubbed as "poison bullets" for a reason.....)

And TALOS,

I dont hate you as persons... but i hate what you did to Irak, and what some of you are still saying about Iraq......

Not to mention the all people killed there because of USA:s policy and wars, but also many others priceless things lots, like their national archives which were burnt completely by looters...... looters which some troopers first engouraged to loot and trash the all "regimes" institutions.

[TALOS]

Tane Angle,

About the ammunition..... one thing i know that if its assault rifle (better yet like here carbine..) i dont expect to get killed when shot in my bottom....

I think its brutal over kill, if its true, which i belive it is....combat is to kill the enemy and you may be right that its overkill but leaving them laying on the battlefield with holes all through them could be considered inhumane as Tane mentioned.

But then again thing or two might be said of Russian standard 5.45 PS ammo also.... (which are also dubbed as "poison bullets" for a reason.....)

And TALOS,

I dont hate you as persons... but i hate what you did to Irak, and what some of you are still saying about Iraq......

I do understand this, and saying that is a right that I would defend, I think my problem lies in the rabid (my opinion strictly) way that you come across. (one little point, I am Canadian, but your comment rightly applies to me as I support the action there)


Not to mention the all people killed there because of USA:s policy and wars, but also many others priceless things lots, like their national archives which were burnt completely by looters...... looters which some troopers first engouraged to loot and trash the all "regimes" institutions.
Again, I understand where you are coming from but I would remind you that I and others believe that Saddam was complete evil and needed to be removed, the deaths that occur, although very regrettable are the result of war and sometimes there is no other options. In my very humble opinion this war became necessary, and I know you dont agree, but lets keep this conversation civil as I noticed you certainly did in your last post.

[Tane Angle]

Well, most people don't shoot for the buttocks. A pretty good number of shots, if they go where they're aimed to, will kill eventually, if not immediately. Shooters aren't trained to wound, as that would leave a still active threat. They're trained to stop the person from firing, and as the enemy can fire a bullet in only a second, they're trained to end the threat immediately.

[Argyll]

Unless you are here,and doing the job,then you know nothing!!

There is nothing wrong with freedom of speach,but when it's verbal diarhoea,and complete bollocks,I'll respond in kind.

There has been several resent incident which has caused this,and all these "Contractors" acted within the US Iraq TAO ROE's.If you're in a compound that is being attacked,you have the right to use deadly force,these fokers are not coming to invite you to sunday lunch,they're cming to end your life..period.
This is something that the whiny **** for brains brigade like Mustamoto and co cannot get into their pea brained heads.

Reference the ammo,I use 7.62 short,carry 180 rounds plus 30 9mm
is that too much for PSD?..........you the experts tell me?
The vast majority of "contractors" carry MP5's(9mm)........if I was carrying one I would want a round that totally renders the assailant dead,and not just tickle him,so using special more powerfull rounds is a life saver here.
We do not drive about "slotting" people just for fun,we are an extremely proffesional outfit,containing a lot of "Highly Qualified" door kickers,the job is to avoid the contact,which puts the clients life at risk,but it may become a neccesity to use Deadly force to protect them and yourself,it is no different than being a LEO.
I would like to tel you more,but I can't and don't want ringpieces like Mustamoto the ****e bag,to twist the facts around

[Uninen]

Thanks guys for replys, no BS. But good and factual info..

And yes.. people arent usually hit on purpose to their bottoms in combat... but this certain unlucky Iraqi was, and because the special "more-than-lethal-bullets" used he instantly died to his wounds.

And i think that sucks, in unfair and most of all had regular military used that ammo, it would have been illegal.

:|

[ForceReaper]

About time. Iraq feels like a sandbox with armed mercenaries right now,
and I wonder how that brings any "freedom" to the Iraqi people.How the hell do you know what Iraq "feels like"? PMC personell are there to protect vital interests not perform Direct Action missions. PMC or NGO personell are not hired as Mercenaries to overthrow a Govenment, Saddams regime was already out of power when they got there. We cant protect our ambassadors with bodyguards now WTF? We cant use security personell to protect oil fields from sabotogue? We cant help train the police force on how to protect their own resources and people.Americans arent the only ones out there doing this I know GSG-9 is training them also. What about them huh? Selective bias I guess! Why do you even post YOU will never change anything. You are not a soldier you should be worrying about you heroin addicts instead of speaking on topics like you have been there! Worry about making a difference in YOUR country and quit inciting people with your continuous anti-American rhetoric.You are a terrorist sympathizer plain and simple. You can be on their side all you want but they are after you too. You just dont get it.

[memphiz]

Go Argyll !! We love you mate, stay safe there ! Don't let the camels on your nerves .
Word man, we miss ya

[ForceReaper]

Thanks guys for replys, no BS. But good and factual info..

And yes.. people arent usually hit on purpose to their bottoms in combat... but this certain unlucky Iraqi was, and because the special "more-than-lethal-bullets" used he instantly died to his wounds.

And i think that sucks, in unfair and most of all had regular military used that ammo, it would have been illegal.

:| He wasnt an Iraqi first of all and there is no such thing as "more than lethal bullets". Dead is dead! This is a f**king war for gods sake it is kill or be killed what part of that concept dont you understand?
An RPG hit the non combatant Fallujah Four was that more than lethal? was it unfair when the Europeans moved from spears to arrows or from arrows to bullets it is called progress in warfare. Better I go home than the enemy.

[Tane Angle]

Good point-maybe the difference between a soldier and the contractors in Iraq is that while a soldier does both defensive and offensive actions, the contractors are purely defensive. Maybe they're all the things people like about soldiers-honorable protection of those who can't protect themselves-with none of the bad? And like Argyll said, it's a heck of a lot better for all involved to avoid contact in the first place. I work for one of the companies and we definitely use the minimum necessary force, while still ensuring that we do our jobs. That means that if we shoot at someone, I hate to say it, but we shoot to remove the threat before one more bullet is fired by them. If bopping them with my ASP baton would do the trick, I'd do it, but I can't baton them from far away. If their finger goes to their trigger, we'll remove the threat immediately, hate to say it. Have a good one, and just some thoughts...

[Red]

All of you "experts" on contractors,answer these questions for me.When was the last time you worked that kind of job?have you been to iraq?have any of these so called "mercs" told you the details of their contracts?You know i admire Tane for still talking to a few of the folks on this thread but my point is that you guys yapping here have not been to iraq,you dont have first hand information so what makes you all of a sudden experts on the situation.Guys who are the real deal are telling you something and you keep arguing blindly about something else. :fork: I wish i was a mod

[ForceReaper]

All of you "experts" on contractors,answer these questions for me.When was the last time you worked that kind of job?have you been to iraq?have any of these so called "mercs" told you the details of their contracts?You know i admire Tane for still talking to a few of the folks on this thread but my point is that you guys yapping here have not been to iraq,you dont have first hand information so what makes you all of a sudden experts on the situation.Guys who are the real deal are telling you something and you keep arguing blindly about something else. :fork: I wish i was a mod Been there as a Military man and as a contractor on more than one occassion. Going back at the end of the month when this Bodyguard gig is over. My best friend is getting there now(TP) and Scott H. was a friend of ours also(Fallujah Four).

[Red]

All of you "experts" on contractors,answer these questions for me.When was the last time you worked that kind of job?have you been to iraq?have any of these so called "mercs" told you the details of their contracts?You know i admire Tane for still talking to a few of the folks on this thread but my point is that you guys yapping here have not been to iraq,you dont have first hand information so what makes you all of a sudden experts on the situation.Guys who are the real deal are telling you something and you keep arguing blindly about something else. :fork: I wish i was a mod Been there as a Military man and as a contractor on more than one occassion. Going back at the end of the month when this Bodyguard gig is over. My best friend is getting there now(TP) and Scott H. was a friend of ours also(Fallujah Four).
Force this was not directed at you,i had folks like uninen and mustamato in mind