Spy poisoning: How dangerous is Russia?

[Brute]

The poisoning of a Kremlin critic has the world asking how dangerous Moscow has become.


By Michael Hirsh and Owen Matthews
Newsweek

Dec. 11, 2006 issue - Alexander Litvinenko said a lot of outrageous things when he was alive. He claimed that Al Qaeda's No. 2, Ayman al-Zawahiri, was a Russian agent. He alleged that he had a tape of Russian President Vladimir Putin having *** with another man. And he declared, just before dying, that his enemies in the FSB, Russia's secret service, had poisoned him in order to silence him. Some of Litvinenko's allegations were hard to believe. But as British and FBI investigators followed a radioactive trail left by the deadly isotope, polonium 210, that killed the Russian exile on Nov. 23—finding traces of it on planes from Moscow to London—they began to believe he might have been on to something. Litvinenko, hairless and ghostly pale, had devoted his last minutes of consciousness to fingering the FSB and Putin himself. "You have shown yourself to be as barbaric and ruthless as your most hostile critics have claimed," the former FSB lieutenant colonel turned dissident said on his deathbed. "The howl of protest from around the world will reverberate, Mr. Putin, in your ears for the rest of your life."

The Kremlin called Litvinenko's allegation "nothing but nonsense." Putin himself dismissively suggested that Litvinenko might have been "sacrificed" by his dissident allies as a ploy to cast blame on Moscow. British investigators last week cautioned that they had turned up nothing that led to any particular suspect. Some suggested that Litvinenko's poisoning was done too sloppily for the culprit to have been the FSB, the successor to the fabled KGB. Professional hits are supposed to be neat, quiet affairs. But so many traces of polonium 210 were found in London restaurants, hotels and posh neighborhoods like Mayfair that British tabloids began to run RADIATION SCARE! headlines. Authorities said some 33,000 British Airways passengers may have been exposed, though the health risks were considered minor.

Still, the fears in London reflected the unease in many Western capitals about the kind of place Russia has become. Grown richer on gas and oil profits, an increasingly haughty Russia has begun to behave like an international bully, U.S. and European officials complain. After a decade in which it meekly accepted its status as a second-rate power, Russia has cut off fuel supplies to the Europeans, strong-armed former Soviet satellites like Ukraine and Georgia, obstructed Washington over sanctions against Iran and harassed U.S. companies in Russia.

Equally worrisome, Russia has become a nation where corruption is systemic, where the only order and security come from bribes and protection rackets and contract killings are as common as buyouts on Wall Street. Politics and profits are so intertwined that top Kremlin officials control some of the country's biggest companies. Deputy Prime Minister Dmitri Medvedev is also chairman of Gazprom, the $220 billion gas monopoly. Presidential administration deputy chief Igor Sechin is head of the giant state oil company, Rosneft, and Putin aide Viktor Ivanov chairs national air-carrier Aerof'lot, as well as the main air-defense contractor, Almaz-Antei. "We used to have a private oligarchy—now we have an oligarchy drawn from the secret police," says former deputy prime minister Boris Nemtsov, referring to the KGB background of many of Putin's advisers. Indeed, some U.S. and European officials suggest that Putin's Russia now has the characteristics of a fascist state. "There's no longer a sense that Russia is just on the other side of the divide but still within the family," says Stephen Sestanovich, a former top Russia adviser in Democratic and Republican administrations. "The Russians are no longer the errant cousins. They're looking like a different gang altogether."



http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16010384/site/newsweek/


If Russia is a bully now, imagine what these sh*theads would say if Russia invaded another country like US did with Iraq. I'm just shaking my head in disbelief at that one paragraph.

[Bert]

Well, imagine if Cindy Sheehan fell over and died by radiation poisoning during one of her speeches in Cuba. Oh, wait. Such things will never happen.

You can't compare Russia and the United States like that.

[koozya]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16010384/site/newsweek/


If Russia is a bully now, imagine what these sh*theads would say if Russia invaded another country like US did with Iraq. I'm just shaking my head in disbelief at that one paragraph.
yea we will always be an evil country no matter what we do.

[Mr.K]

Very dangerous, planes fall down, movie theaters explode, cops put drugs on you, journalists are killed, dissidents are poisoned, jewish businessmen put in jail, foreigners beat up on the streets, and the rest is devoured alive by the roaming bears.

[exarmyguard]

Russians are bad asses. Don't mess with them. They make the mafia look like boy scouts.

[sir-chimp]

Russians are bad asses. Don't mess with them. They make the mafia look like boy scouts.

Yep Im impressed. Just look - ------------------------ - thats how impressed I am.

[Smersh]

vast majority of people feel the United States is "the international bully". Russia coericive powers are far less then that of the United States.

[sir-chimp]

Plasma Stealth

[Fade]

Of course Russia is dangerous. They have frikken bear cavalry!

[Brute]

Well, imagine if Cindy Sheehan fell over and died by radiation poisoning during one of her speeches in Cuba. Oh, wait. Such things will never happen.

You can't compare Russia and the United States like that.

Of course not. They're in no way comparable!

The United States is the God's own gift to this planet and can never be wrong regardless of what it does, while Russia is an immature child who only breaks things, bullies other kids, is unable to look after itself and should never be allowed to pursue any self-interests. Did I get it right?

Perhaps Russian agents should really start poisoning Bush critics and leave a sloppy trail leading to a US nuke lab as a bias check, to see if the F(r)ee Western Press spins it in the right direction.

[sir-chimp]

Russia Strong zog zog zog

[Bert]

Of course not. They're in no way comparable!

The United States is the God's own gift to this planet and can never be wrong regardless of what it does, while Russia is an immature child who only breaks things, bullies other kids, is unable to look after itself and should never be allowed to pursue any self-interests. Did I get it right?

Perhaps Russian agents should really start poisoning Bush critics and leave a sloppy trail leading to a US nuke lab as a bias check, to see if the F(r)ee Western Press spins it in the right direction.

If 'pursuing self-interests' consists of poisoning critics, including those with British citizenship, then no, they're not comparable.

Did I ever praise the U.S.? No, they're a bunch of incompetent morons, but not so much when compared to Russia.

[CRAZY MERC]

Another BS article from BS magazine.

[Alan]

EVILRUSSIANROAR!!! (tm)

[koozya]

Plasma Stealth
yeap very smart post from you, yea plasma stealth has a lot with this topic thank u for ur input

[sir-chimp]

yeap very smart post from you, yea plasma stealth has a lot with this topic thank u for ur input

Thanks, its not every day one gets thanked for their efforts.

[Alan]

Plasma makes me stealthy. Now if I can only lose the heat signature of my farts, I'll be invincible.

[sir-chimp]

Plasma makes me stealthy. Now if I can only lose the heat signature of my farts, I'll be invincible.

Try not lighting them on fire, or wearing ceramic underwear.

[Alan]

Try not lighting them on fire, or wearing ceramic underwear.

Flaming farts are banned by the Geneva convention, and unfortunately, the ceramic underwear somehow messes with my radar sensors.

[pr0]

Did Russia or what countries invade independent countries or bomb them lately? and who is really dangerous?

[pr0]

yeap very smart post from you, yea plasma stealth has a lot with this topic thank u for ur input
leave him alone, he needs attention but has nothing to say actually. let him play his games alone.

[sir-chimp]

Did Russia or what countries invade independent countries or bomb them lately? and who is really dangerous?

We are only following the orders of our Zionist masters.

[pr0]

We are only following the orders of our Zionist masters.
you won Petrosyan award, congrats

[sir-chimp]

you won Petrosyan award, congrats

all that and three testicals

[pr0]

go to ignore

[Brute]

If 'pursuing self-interests' consists of poisoning critics, including those with British citizenship, then no, they're not comparable.


But of course you have a solid proof of the Russian Government's involvement in those murders, do you not?

I see no one among the Western Press openly calling the US a bully and a danger for illegally invading Iraq and causing a civil war there - a far, far worse thing, btw, than anything you could accuse Russia of doing - yet such loaded epithets are thrown freely when it comes to Russia. Why the double standard?

[pr0]

btw isn`t it needed to wait the end of the investigation to make the articles based on facts not on the conjecture? or that is not obligatory for western press that works as true democratic and the most objective in the world?

[sir-chimp]

But of course you have a solid proof of the Russian Government's involvement in those murders, do you not?

I see no one among the Western Press openly calling the US a bully and a danger for illegally invading Iraq and causing a civil war there, yet such loaded epithets are thrown freely when it comes to Russia. Why the double standard?

How effing clueless can you be? Have you ever even picked up an American Newspaper, let alone any other western newspaper?


Sweat pissing on a electrical fence jesus.

This russian emo victim hood angst thing is killing me.

It like emos only with out the fashion sense.

[Brute]

How effing clueless can you be? Have you ever even picked up an American Newspaper, let alone any other western newspaper?


Sweat pissing on a electrical fence jesus.

This russian emo victim hood angst thing is killing me.

It like emos only with out the fashion sense.



Grown richer on gas and oil profits, an increasingly haughty Russia has begun to behave like an international bully, U.S. and European officials complain.

Emo my ass. What a nice excuse when you lack counter arguments.

Quote me any serious Western publication that speaks of western officials as complaining about US being an international bully. Or STFU.

[sir-chimp]

Quote me any serious Western publication that speaks of western officials as complaining about US being an international bully. Or STFU.

rofl

tell me do you sport the hair cut too or just the sound?

[Brute]

rofl

tell me do you sport the hair cut too or just the sound?


Resident neo-con in the house. Lacks further counter-argument. Character assassination begins in 3... 2... 1...

You're ever so predictable, Chimp. :lol:

[sir-chimp]

Resident neo-con in the house. Lacks further counter-argument. Character assassination begins in 3... 2... 1...

You're ever so predictable, Chimp.

rofl


can you predict todays winning lotto numbers too? I really want a new tv.

[Kilgor]

I see no one among the Western Press openly calling the US a bully and a danger for illegally invading Iraq and causing a civil war there - a far, far worse thing, btw, than anything you could accuse Russia of doing - yet such loaded epithets are thrown freely when it comes to Russia. Why the double standard?

How can it be a double standard when much of the "western press" do indeed call America a bully for doing the same thing ? At least our journalists don't end up in morgues. ..

You'd be a moron to think the "western" press is one entity with the exactly same opinion.

[TheStorm]

I see no one among the Western Press openly calling the US a bully and a danger for illegally invading Iraq and causing a civil war there - a far, far worse thing, btw, than anything you could accuse Russia of doing - yet such loaded epithets are thrown freely when it comes to Russia. Why the double standard?

:lol:

Clearly, then, you do not read much of the western press at all. We've been called bully and much more in relation to Iraq. To deny that is plain silly, as a search of Google News will quickly reveal.

[Kilgor]

:lol:

Clearly, then, you do not read much of the western press at all. We've been called bully and much more in relation to Iraq. To deny that is plain silly, as a search of Google News will quickly reveal.

oh but remember, only a few rich, Russian hating capitalists in top hats and who smoke cigars "own" all of the western press. (and nearly all jews too of course!)

[TheStorm]

oh but remember, only a few rich, Russian hating capitalists in top hats and who smoke cigars "own" all of the western press. (and nearly all jews too of course!)

Absolutely. If, heaven forbid, Russia is criticized, it's just the decadent Westerners trying to keep the poor, downtrodden, misunderstood, just-minding-their-own-business Russians down.

[Brute]

How can it be a double standard when much of the "western press" do indeed call America a bully for doing the same thing ? At least our journalists don't end up in morgues. ..

You'd be a moron to think the "western" press is one entity with the exactly same opinion.

I can hardly recall ever seeing "much" of the mainstream Western press apply those same epithets to the US. Certainly, never at the start of the Iraqi war (before things started going south) and, to this day, never from such major news outlets as MSNBC, BBC, etc.

Furthermore, those press guys aren't just expressing their own opinion - they're quoting (unnamed) US and Euro officials. If that's true, then the "double standards" charge applies to them as well.

[sir-chimp]

Emo - its just not suburban kids in California anymore.

[dimasorokine]

Absolutely. If, heaven forbid, Russia is criticized, it's just the decadent Westerners trying to keep the poor, downtrodden, misunderstood, just-minding-their-own-business Russians down.

You guys did not live in Russia when it was "Liberated" from communism, the truth is Russians have a lot more things to be mad at the west about than the west has about Russia.

And BTW: why do you care so much about a Russian traitor being killed? People like you will be upset when Berezhovski is assasinated and probably complained about Basayev being blown up.

-Dima

[Thor]

If nothing else, Russia's behavior will soon start to boost our defence budgets. woot

[Smersh]

oh but remember, only a few rich, Russian hating capitalists in top hats and who smoke cigars "own" all of the western press. (and nearly all jews too of course!)

I don't know about the jews, but nearly all of American media is owned by six corporations.

[Brute]

oh but remember, only a few rich, Russian hating capitalists in top hats and who smoke cigars "own" all of the western press. (and nearly all jews too of course!)

A classical "straw-man" argument!

You said it. Not me.



Clearly, then, you do not read much of the western press at all. We've been called bully and much more in relation to Iraq. To deny that is plain silly, as a search of Google News will quickly reveal.

Quote me any respectable publication released in the West in the past 3 and a half years (preferably in the US, and England), especially one dating to the beginning of the Iraqi war, that is using those exact words. Even more, quote me one that's quoting the country's officials as using those terms. I'd like to see this litmus test of a double standard for myself.




Absolutely. If, heaven forbid, Russia is criticized, it's just the decadent Westerners trying to keep the poor, downtrodden, misunderstood, just-minding-their-own-business Russians down.

There's a difference between a justified criticism and an unjustified one, that has no basis in reality and only serves to further an agenda, whatever it may be.

[sir-chimp]

If nothing else, Russia's behavior will soon start to boost our defence budgets. woot

too true woot for us

[Smersh]

Viacom, News corp, Bertelsmann,Vivendi Universal,Sony, AOL time warner.

Kilgor your comment is not too far off.

[Brute]

Emo - its just not suburban kids in California anymore.

Your contribution is as "limited" as is the article that's being discussed.

If you only want to act like a clown in this thread, and have nothing of value to add to it, then why not leave the topic entirely, and spare us our time? Seriously, guy, give your one-liners a rest! :)

[sir-chimp]

Your contribution is as "limited" as is the article that's being discussed.

If you only want to act like a clown in this thread, and have nothing of value to add to it, then why not leave the topic entirely, and spare us our time? Seriously, guy, give your one-liners a rest! :)


Look
3
lines
oh
wait
now
its
8

[Brute]

If nothing else, Russia's behavior will soon start to boost our defence budgets. woot

Trust me, you won't be then only ones boosting defense budgets. Another color revolution or two, Georgia and Ukraine in NATO, and we'll be back to square one. At least Russia's behavior can be explained as a direct response to your military alliance's aggressive moves. What's your excuse?

[Smersh]

sir chimp you really deserve to be suspended. for 4 pages now, you've contributed nothing to this thread.

[TheStorm]

Certainly, never at the start of the Iraqi war (before things started going south) and, to this day, never from such major news outlets as MSNBC, BBC, etc.

How about The Guardian?


However, American bullying of smaller states undermines this moral consensus around democracy and freedom. Source (http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,,1722277,00.html)


US tactics have ranged from threats to boycott peacekeeping missions to telling east European countries that a failure to agree bilateral immunity pacts could harm economic ties and Nato membership. This American bullying has embarrassed its friends.Source (http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,12271,802757,00.html)



The United Nations secretary general, Kofi Annan, declared explicitly for the first time last night that the US-led war on Iraq was illegal.Source (http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1305709,00.html)

Or the Independent?


Kennedy: US guilty of imperialism over Iraq
By Nigel Morris Political Correspondent
Published: 24 September 2002

Charles Kennedy accused the United States yesterday of betraying "more than a hint of imperialism" in its determination to topple Saddam Hussein as leader of Iraq.Source (http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/politics/article131845.ece)



Furthermore, those press guys aren't just expressing their own opinion - they're quoting (unnamed) US and Euro officials.

Exactly. MSNBC isn't calling Russia a bully. They're quoting. Or is that forbidden now?


If that's true, then the "double standards" charge applies to them as well.

:cantbeli:

That's like complaining that a salesman points out the flaws in a competitor's product while failing to do that to his own. Officials aren't paid to criticize their own country.

[Kilgor]

You guys did not live in Russia when it was "Liberated" from communism, the truth is Russians have a lot more things to be mad at the west about than the west has about Russia.



-Dima


such as ?
So the fall of communism was the wests fault ?

[Kilgor]

I don't know about the jews, but nearly all of American media is owned by six corporations.

Nearly all the wests media not owned by these 6 corps.
There is plenty of information and freedom of press around in the west, plenty of alternative sources of information, and thanks to the internet its almost unlimited.

[TheStorm]

You guys did not live in Russia when it was "Liberated" from communism, the truth is Russians have a lot more things to be mad at the west about than the west has about Russia.

Okay. So what?



And BTW: why do you care so much about a Russian traitor being killed?

It's not a big deal to me, really.


and probably complained about Basayev being blown up.

Please. Talk about an idiotic assumption.

[Smersh]

There is plenty of information and freedom of press around in the west, plenty of alternative sources of information, and thanks to the internet its almost unlimited.

Yes there are alternative sources but these are relatively small, you tell me if the average american goes to these 'alternative' sites on the internet?



Nearly all the wests media not owned by these 6 corps.
No? Who else is there? I'll repeat the names I posted incase you missed them.

Viacom, News corp, Bertelsmann,Vivendi Universal,Time warner, AOL time warner. (oh, I'll add Sony as well)

[pr0]

Okay. So what?

USSR occupied Prague. ok, so what? why everyone still talks about that?

[dimasorokine]

such as ?
So the fall of communism was the wests fault ?

No, it was not the wests "fault" it was it's victory, and the West had a lot to do with it.

-Dima

[sir-chimp]

sir chimp you really deserve to be suspended. for 4 pages now, you've contributed nothing to this thread.



They have contributed as much as those who's uninformed opinions inspired them

fight cacca with cacca

you dont truly believe I would take folks such yourselves who hold these opinions seriously? I find it rather amusing if not sad.

russia the strong, russia the victim, russia the I havent lived there since my parents moved to the west

[TheStorm]

Quote me any respectable publication released in the West in the past 3 and a half years (preferably in the US, and England), especially one dating to the beginning of the Iraqi war, that is using those exact words. Even more, quote me one that's quoting the country's officials as using those terms. I'd like to see this litmus test of a double standard for myself.

Our own officials? You're moving the goalposts. The article you posted quotes foreign (to Russia) officials.


There's a difference between a justified criticism and an unjustified one, that has no basis in reality and only serves to further an agenda, whatever it may be.

rofl

Yeah, I'm going to let you, a Russian, be the arbiter of that. Hmmm... no, I think I'll go with my own opinion.

[dimasorokine]

Please. Talk about an idiotic assumption.

Idiotic? How do you feel about Berezhovski and Chechens that have direct links to Chechen rebels being protected by the British government?

-Dima

[pr0]

i don`t understand western ppl really think that Russia as enemy is better then as friend?
listen, if you deny our partnership then Russians have to look for alliances with China, India, etc. do you really think it will be better for you all?
most of Russians want to integrate to Europe, but as longer as i read this forum as much i understand that for most of europeans (and usa) we are enemies and they don`t want to be in alliance with us. don`t you think that this position is not really profitable for you? Russia needs allies, if westerns don`t want to be them then someone else will be them. but are you sure it really will be good for you?

[TheStorm]

USSR occupied Prague. ok, so what? why everyone still talks about that?

You're pretty damn good at missing the point entirely, aren't you? How exactly can the fall of the Soviet Union, and whatever hardships followed, be used as an excuse to call criticism of Russia from the West unjustified? The West played a part in the fall of its enemy, the USSR. Tough sh!t. That's no reason for us to turn a blind eye to the actions of Russia now.

[pr0]

You're pretty damn good at missing the point entirely, aren't you? How exactly can the fall of the Soviet Union, and whatever hardships followed, be used as an excuse to call criticism of Russia from the West unjustified? The West played a part in the fall of its enemy, the USSR. Tough sh!t. That's no reason for us to turn a blind eye to the actions of Russia now.
only one question, what relationships do you want between Russia and your country? (where r u from btw?)
now western ppl do everything to make relationships worse. do you really think that is profitable for you? or all that is just becouse of your cold-war stereotypes?

[Brute]

How about The Guardian?

Or the Independent?


Two left-leaning British newspapers is all you can quote? It's a drop in the bucket in no way comparable to the unified front facing Russia from the west.




Exactly. MSNBC isn't calling Russia a bully. They're quoting. Or is that forbidden now?
Not it isn't, when you actually give those officials names. Otherwise it's a propaganda tool used to add weight to your own arguments and mislead your readers.




:cantbeli:

That's like complaining that a salesman points out the flaws in a competitor's product while failing to do that to his own. Officials aren't paid to criticize their own country.

It doesn't necessarily have to be your own government. I've never seen an official in the west allowing himself such liberty as to call another western state as being a bully and a danger recently.

[dimasorokine]

You're pretty damn good at missing the point entirely, aren't you? How exactly can the fall of the Soviet Union, and whatever hardships followed, be used as an excuse to call criticism of Russia from the West unjustified? The West played a part in the fall of its enemy, the USSR. Tough sh!t. That's no reason for us to turn a blind eye to the actions of Russia now.

The ocupaton of Prague was part of the USSR's strategy against the west (it's enemy) tough sh!t. Right?

But more importantly, what are the actions of Russia right now that don't have an eqaully wrong action done by the West? Why is Russia so wrong in everything it does?

-Dima

[Thor]

Trust me, you won't be then only ones boosting defense budgets.
If we will, it will be in response to the current and planned russian military build-up, an increasingly unpredictable regime in Kreml, and russian attempts to establish themselves with pipelines etc. close to our borders.


At least Russia's behavior can be explained as a direct response to your military alliance's aggressive moves.
"Aggressive moves"?? You think NATO is going to attack Russia? You see any signs of it? rofl Totally xenophobic.

Secondy, we're not part of NATO (we don't really need to be).

[pr0]

"Aggressive moves"?? You think NATO is going to attack Russia? You see any signs of it? rofl Totally xenophobic.

too many bases near borders, new radars, etc

and why r u so xenophobic to our pipeline?

[TheStorm]

Idiotic? How do you feel about Berezhovski and Chechens that have direct links to Chechen rebels being protected by the British government?

-Dima

I'm not British. But if credible, unbiased proof links him to Islamic terrorism, then he should be brought to justice.

[Kilgor]

too many bases near borders, new radars, etc

and why r u so xenophobic to our pipeline?

these new military structures are on now independent states. They can do what they like, they arn't in the Warsaw pact anymore.

[name already taken]

i don`t understand western ppl really think that Russia as enemy is better then as friend?
listen, if you deny our partnership then Russians have to look for alliances with China, India, etc. do you really think it will be better for you all?
most of Russians want to integrate to Europe, but as longer as i read this forum as much i understand that for most of europeans (and usa) we are enemies and they don`t want to be in alliance with us. don`t you think that this position is not really profitable for you? Russia needs allies, if westerns don`t want to be them then someone else will be them. but are you sure it really will be good for you?
I wouldn't put Europeans and Americans in the same bag.
If some western media said the USA are bully, those media are most likely European.

[Brute]

Our own officials? You're moving the goalposts. The article you posted quotes foreign (to Russia) officials.

The point is that you, "the bastion of democracy", are ever-so-willing to judge other countries who don't conform to your standards, while committing far worse acts in its name *cough* Iraqi War *cough* without ever mentioning a thing. If the western press and officials are up in arms over a couple of murders, I cannot even imagine what their reaction would be if Russia allowed themselve to invade another country.



rofl

Yeah, I'm going to let you, a Russian, be the arbiter of that. Hmmm... no, I think I'll go with my own opinion.
...however unjustified it may be? But, whatever floats your boat...

[dimasorokine]

I'm not British. But if credible, unbiased proof links him to Islamic terrorism, then he should be brought to justice.

And there is the flaw...

Berezhovki is seen as a big crook that did great harm to Russia not only by most Russians but by many westerners as well (including Forbes magazine). Being linked to Chechen rebels is just one small part if his crimes.

There are also Chechens taking refuge inside England that openly speak of their ties to the Chechen rebels (is this credible enough?) and are former rebels themselves.

And what is "Credible Unbiased proof" exactly? Who should determine this - England who gives refuge to this filth, or Russia who suffered most from their actions?

-Dima

[pr0]

these new military structures are on now independent states. They can do what they like, they arn't in the Warsaw pact anymore.
if we will establish some nuclear rocket bases at the independent Cuba, Venezuela, Serbia, Belarus, that will be ok i hope?

[pr0]

I wouldn't put Europeans and Americans in the same bag.
If some western media said the USA are bully, those media are most likely European.
so you as american what relationships do you want between us?

[TheStorm]

Two left-leaning British newspapers is all you can quote? It's a drop in the bucket in no way comparable to the unified front facing Russia from the west.

I just showed that it does happen. There are other examples available, but I'm not going to spend time looking for them. A large majority of the population of Western countries opposed the war except for Americans, and that was reflected in the press.


Not it isn't, when you actually give those officials names. Otherwise it's a propaganda tool used to add weight to your own arguments and mislead your readers.

I don't like the quoting of "unnamed officials" either. But this happens in many instances, including in articles criticizing the US. Of course anonymous sources do exist, and you can't prove that they didn't actually say that, but I tend to agree with the sentiment you expressed here.


It doesn't necessarily have to be your own government. I've never seen an official in the west allowing himself such liberty as to call another western state as being a bully and a danger recently.

I wouldn't expect an official of an ally of Russia, say Belarus, to call it a bully either.

[Brute]

If we will, it will be in response to the current and planned russian military build-up, an increasingly unpredictable regime in Kreml, and russian attempts to establish themselves with pipelines etc. close to our borders.

and I'm saying that such build-up will only be done in response to the Washington continuing to prop up puppet states right next to the Russian border and the NATO expansion towards the same.



"Aggressive moves"?? You think NATO is going to attack Russia? You see any signs of it? rofl Totally xenophobic.
From my point of view this is xenophobic>
an increasingly unpredictable regime in Kreml, and russian attempts to establish themselves with pipelines etc.



Secondy, we're not part of NATO (we don't really need to be).

Good for you.

[name already taken]

The ocupaton of Prague was part of the USSR's strategy against the west (it's enemy) tough sh!t. Right?

But more importantly, what are the actions of Russia right now that don't have an eqaully wrong action done by the West? Why is Russia so wrong in everything it does?

-Dima
What makes Russia so wrong is that nobody here in the west has any reliable information about it except that Putin probably poisons his opponents...

That's not much.

If Putin was in the west, he would have conducted a counter operation against this poisoning, even if he wasn't directly involved in it, as public relation. Otherwise he wouldn't get any allies in the west.

We don't see anything.

I personally don't consider Russia as an international bully. But I'm still afraid of Russia as a snake nest of some kind.

Where can I go to get reliable information to correct this perception ? No idea.

BTW. What ids your perception of Russia ? It might help me.

[pr0]

TheStorm (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/member.php?u=11752) why didn`t you answer my questions?

[pr0]

What makes Russia so wrong is that nobody here in the west has any reliable information about it except that Putin probably poisons his opponents...

maybe western massmedia makes smth wrong? didn`t you try to think in that way?

[Brute]

If Putin was in the west, he would have conducted a counter operation against this poisoning, even if he wasn't directly involved in it, as public relation. Otherwise he wouldn't get any allies in the west.


I'm willing to bet that if he really thinks that someone is trying to set him up by this string of murders, he's conducing such a "counter operation" right now...

The upcoming parliamentary and presidential elections in 2007/08 (respectively) are an interesting coincidence...

[TheStorm]

And there is the flaw...

Berezhovki is seen as a big crook that did great harm to Russia not only by most Russians but by many westerners as well (including Forbes magazine). Being linked to Chechen rebels is just one small part if his crimes.

There are also Chechens taking refuge inside England that openly speak of their ties to the Chechen rebels (is this credible enough?) and are former rebels themselves.

They should be extradited to Russia. But I suspect that the human rights crew would throw a fit over that. If it's any comfort, they hamstring Western efforts to fight terrorism too.


And what is "Credible Unbiased proof" exactly? Who should determine this - England who gives refuge to this filth, or Russia who suffered most from their actions?

-Dima

I know little about this issue, so I can't really discuss it with you. Obviously, a solution needs to be found. Unfortunately, I wouldn't trust most international organizations to tie my shoe laces, let alone decide an issue as important as this.

[name already taken]

vast majority of people feel the United States is "the international bully". Russia coericive powers are far less then that of the United States.
Hey Smersh where did you hear that the vast majority of people feel the United States is "the international bully" if not in the western media owned by the 6 major corporations ?

[TheStorm]

TheStorm (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/member.php?u=11752) why didn`t you answer my questions?

Hold on, I want to answer them, I'm not ignoring you. I just have alot of other issues in this thread to deal with.

[Smersh]

Hey Smersh where did you hear that the vast majority of people feel the United States is "the international bully" if not in the western media owned by the 6 major corporations ?

Outside the United States a big part of the world population feels that the United States is an international Bully. Look at the United States international reputation after the Iraqi war. In Europe, Asia, South America. Right now the United States is very unpopular among the international community.

[dimasorokine]

“What makes Russia so wrong is that nobody here in the west has any reliable information about it except that Putin probably poisons his opponents...

That's not much.”

That is precisely what I think the problem is…and even if Putin did order this “hit” I don’t think he is completely unjustified considering who this man was.

”I personally don't consider Russia as an international bully. But I'm still afraid of Russia as a snake nest of some kind.

Where can I go to get reliable information to correct this perception ? No idea.”

Good point, there isn’t much info in English that supports Russia and it’s policies and actions.

”BTW. What ids your perception of Russia ? It might help me.”

Honestly, I think Russia is for the first time since Soviet times doing what’s best for Russia. That’s not going to be a welcome change in the west as Russia’s interests differ from that of the US, UK and it’s allies.

All this hype about a few contract murders (which are daily thing in Russia BTW) and sanctions against “Unfriendly” countries is out of proportion. If Russia was to invade Georgia or assassinate the pro-western puppet and install it’s own by force I can see it being a big deal…

But Russia is not invading anyone, it’s not sending it’s fighter planes to bombard Beirut either, so articles like this will piss of a few Russians.

-Dima

[name already taken]

I'm willing to bet that if he really thinks that someone is trying to set him up by this string of murders, he's conducing such a "counter operation" right now...

The upcoming parliamentary and presidential elections in 2007/08 (respectively) are an interesting coincidence...
Why doesn't he make that a little more public ?

You see, not everyone of us believe in coincidences and some of our intellectuals do not by principle...

[dimasorokine]

They should be extradited to Russia. But I suspect that the human rights crew would throw a fit over that. If it's any comfort, they hamstring Western efforts to fight terrorism too.



I know little about this issue, so I can't really discuss it with you. Obviously, a solution needs to be found. Unfortunately, I wouldn't trust most international organizations to tie my shoe laces, let alone decide an issue as important as this.

I'm glad you can take an unbiased stance on this issue... The reason I brought this up is because many westerners are busy critisizing Russia over unproven murders while ignoring actual Western actions that are 10x worse.

-Dima

[name already taken]

Outside the United States a big part of the world population feels that the United States is an international Bully. Look at the United States international reputation after the Iraqi war. In Europe, Asia, South America. Right now the United States is very unpopular among the international community.
OK. And in this "Outside the United States" I hope you include Europe.

[TheStorm]

The point is that you, "the bastion of democracy", are ever-so-willing to judge other countries who don't conform to your standards, while committing far worse acts in its name *cough* Iraqi War *cough* without ever mentioning a thing. If the western press and officials are up in arms over a couple of murders, I cannot even imagine what their reaction would be if Russia allowed themselve to invade another country.

Democracy was a side act in Iraq. The main issue was WMD's, which it turns out didn't existed. I'm not going to get into a discussion about Iraq, as the merits and faults of that war have been debated many, many times.

Personally, and I think the majority of Americans agree with me, America shouldn't be going around pushing so hard for democracy. We would prefer a more realist foreign policy.


...however unjustified it may be? But, whatever floats your boat...

As opposed to your own? I don't think it's unjustified at all.

[TheStorm]

i don`t understand western ppl really think that Russia as enemy is better then as friend?
listen, if you deny our partnership then Russians have to look for alliances with China, India, etc. do you really think it will be better for you all?
most of Russians want to integrate to Europe, but as longer as i read this forum as much i understand that for most of europeans (and usa) we are enemies and they don`t want to be in alliance with us. don`t you think that this position is not really profitable for you? Russia needs allies, if westerns don`t want to be them then someone else will be them. but are you sure it really will be good for you?

only one question, what relationships do you want between Russia and your country? (where r u from btw?)
now western ppl do everything to make relationships worse. do you really think that is profitable for you? or all that is just becouse of your cold-war stereotypes?

I'm an American, and I would love for Russia to be an ally of the US. There are countless ways we could complement each other. But it seems like you're placing the blame for poor Russo-Western relations solely at the feet of the West. Does Russia seriously want to be a partner and associate itself with us?
I don't think so.

Of course there's no denying, however, that foreign policy "idealists" currently
control the United States' and many Western governments, with the exception of France, while Russia has a more pragmatic attitude. Until realists come to dominate in our government, and I expect they will as China and India grow in power, our prospects for alliance unfortunately remain small.

[Smersh]

OK. And in this "Outside the United States" I hope you include Europe.

I did, I used the word europe in my post.

good analysis TheStorm. After the end of the Soviet Union, Russia was essentially dropped from priority on American and Western European foriegn policy. There was no real effort to create any cooperation bettween post-soviet russia and the west. And right now, there is developing a new hostility between the nations.

[name already taken]

“What makes Russia so wrong is that nobody here in the west has any reliable information about it except that Putin probably poisons his opponents...

That's not much.”

That is precisely what I think the problem is…and even if Putin did order this “hit” I don’t think he is completely unjustified considering who this man was.

”I personally don't consider Russia as an international bully. But I'm still afraid of Russia as a snake nest of some kind.

Where can I go to get reliable information to correct this perception ? No idea.”

Good point, there isn’t much info in English that supports Russia and it’s policies and actions.

”BTW. What ids your perception of Russia ? It might help me.”

Honestly, I think Russia is for the first time since Soviet times doing what’s best for Russia. That’s not going to be a welcome change in the west as Russia’s interests differ from that of the US, UK and it’s allies.

All this hype about a few contract murders (which are daily thing in Russia BTW) and sanctions against “Unfriendly” countries is out of proportion. If Russia was to invade Georgia or assassinate the pro-western puppet and install it’s own by force I can see it being a big deal…

But Russia is not invading anyone, it’s not sending it’s fighter planes to bombard Beirut either, so articles like this will piss of a few Russians.

-Dima
I think Russia is for the first time since Soviet times doing what’s best for Russia.

Interesting.

That’s not going to be a welcome change in the west as Russia’s interests differ from that of the US, UK and it’s allies.


I wouldn't bet everything on this because when something goes right somewhere, it tends to get some attention. Even if it is from the general population from tourism or otherwise.


But Russia is not invading anyone, it’s not sending it’s fighter planes to bombard Beirut either, so articles like this will piss of a few Russians.

You are right. But the perception most of us have here date back to the USSR collapse and this looks very much like a snake nest. I'm happy it's better and I don't feel it takes anything away from me things being better in Russia.

There's so much difference between the east and the west that there's a lot to learn for each side. And the world sure needs more stability.

[TheStorm]

The ocupaton of Prague was part of the USSR's strategy against the west (it's enemy) tough sh!t. Right?

I'm not complaining about the USSR. I'm talking about its fall, and how Russians extrapolate that into dismissing criticism from the western media as unjustified or a conspiracy.

[Smersh]

If western media took a more balanced approach to coverage of Russia, instead of constantly making it look like a 'bad guy', there wouldn't be such critism by Russians. When do you ever hear anything positive about Russia in western media?

Cold war type coverage has not changed at all. Can you honestly say many people in the west still don't view Russia as 'the enemy'?

[name already taken]

I'm an American, and I would love for Russia to be an ally of the US. There are countless ways we could complement each other. But it seems like you're placing the blame for poor Russo-Western relations solely at the feet of the West. Does Russia seriously want to be a partner and associate itself with us?
I don't think so.

Of course there's no denying, however, that foreign policy "idealists" currently
control the United States' and many Western governments, with the exception of France, while Russia has a more pragmatic attitude. Until realists come to dominate in our government, and I expect they will as China and India grow in power, our prospects for alliance unfortunately remain small.
I'm a Canadian and once I had an Ukrainian Engineer with a PhD at home who was looking for a job for 1 month.

Just because of the cultural difference we both learned quite a lot from the experience. And I got a feel for how old the culture in the east block is.

It would be a waste not to use this.

[dimasorokine]

“I wouldn't bet everything on this because when something goes right somewhere, it tends to get some attention. Even if it is from the general population from tourism or otherwise.”

The reason I think Russia looking after it’s own best interests won’t be a welcome change in the West is because Russia IS a major world power and will be competing with the US for power and influence in the world…

Russia by nature is either a leader or independent and as it regains it’s status as a world power more and more silly propaganda campaigns (like this article) will continue to tarnish it’s image.

“You are right. But the perception most of us have here date back to the USSR collapse and this looks very much like a snake nest. I'm happy it's better and I don't feel it takes anything away from me things being better in Russia.

There's so much difference between the east and the west that there's a lot to learn for each side. And the world sure needs more stability.”

Well said…

But I don’t think many of today’s leaders are looking for world stability – but they are looking for profit and power – this is another reason why an obedient pro-Western Russia would be praised by the West and an Independent “do it my way” Russia will always be criticized.

-Dima

[Smersh]

But I don’t think many of today’s leaders are looking for world stability – but they are looking for profit and power – this is another reason why an obedient pro-Western Russia would be praised by the West and an Independent “do it my way” Russia will always be criticized.

I compeltly agree with you here, Dima. I was going to say something similar in my own post.

[name already taken]

If western media took a more balanced approach to coverage of Russia, instead of constantly making it look like a 'bad guy', there wouldn't be such critism by Russians. When do you ever hear anything positive about Russia in western media?

Cold war type coverage has not changed at all. Can you honestly say many people in the west still don't view Russia as 'the enemy'?
But what does Russia do about this ?

Sure, the perception should change. But for what ? There's not enough information sipping out of Russia to trigger a perception change in the west. If Russia would be more aggressive about its international perception, things could change.

But this won't come from the west. We'll keep repeating what we've once known until something new comes. And if Russia don't make it come, it will stay as it is.

[TheStorm]

If western media took a more balanced approach to coverage of Russia, instead of constantly making it look like a 'bad guy', there wouldn't be such critism by Russians. When do you ever hear anything positive about Russia in western media?

Cold war type coverage has not changed at all. Can you honestly say many people in the west still don't view Russia as 'the enemy'?

What do you base the accusation that coverage of Russia is biased on? I don't see it worse off than any other country, the US in particular.

The Litvinenko affair is being blown out of proportion because it sounds like a cheap thriller come to life. Eyes are being turned toward Russia as the culprit because he was a traitor to that country and Polonium-210 in lethal amounts is very hard to get, requiring advanced nuclear technology and equipment that only a few countries, Russia among them, have.

[dimasorokine]

I'm not complaining about the USSR. I'm talking about its fall, and how Russians extrapolate that into dismissing criticism from the western media as unjustified or a conspiracy.

I understand what you are saying. My point was that Russians have more reasons to hate the West than Westerners to hate Russia...

Russians are living in a crime ravaged country with poor living standards (especially for the old) which the West is partly to blame - this is one of the reasons Russians can complaine about the West as it had a direct negetive impact on the lives of many...

Russians complaine because their lives changed drastically while westerners complaine because Russia did something "Undemocratic" that had no effect on them at all.

-Dima

[dimasorokine]

I compeltly agree with you here, Dima. I was going to say something similar in my own post.
[/font][/color]

I think most of the Russian members of this forum have this opinion :)

-Dima

[Smersh]

But what does Russia do about this ?

Sure, the perception should change. But for what ? There's not enough information sipping out of Russia to trigger a perception change in the west. If Russia would be more aggressive about its international perception, things could change.

But this won't come from the west. We'll keep repeating what we've once known until something new comes. And if Russia don't make it come, it will stay as it is.

Russia is an open country today, Western media can get what ever information it wants. Countries shouldn't and don't need to have a PR campign in order to get positive news.


What do you base the accusation that coverage of Russia is biased on? I don't see it worse off than any other country, the US in particular.

The Litvinenko affair is being blown out of proportion because it sounds like a cheap thriller come to life. Eyes are being turned toward Russia as the culprit because he was a traitor to that country and Polonium-210 in lethal amounts is very hard to get, requiring advanced nuclear technology and equipment that only a few countries, Russia among them, have.

This was all talked about in the "who is poisining russian dissidents" thread no point in repeating everything here too.

[cetnik]

I understand what you are saying. My point was that Russians have more reasons to hate the West than Westerners to hate Russia...

Russians are living in a crime ravaged country with poor living standards (especially for the old) which the West is partly to blame - this is one of the reasons Russians can complaine about the West as it had a direct negetive impact on the lives of many...

Russians complaine because their lives changed drastically while westerners complaine because Russia did something "Undemocratic" that had no effect on them at all.

-Dima

^X2.The USSR hade western help being dismanteled just like Yugoslavia hade western help being murdered.

[koozya]

ok untill there is proof that the killing of Litvenenko was made by Russia, you all shoud stop freaking blaming Russia.
sarcasm on/PS. Oh you know what... i think its probably CIA who did the hit to blame Russia./ sarcasm ff

[TheStorm]

I understand what you are saying. My point was that Russians have more reasons to hate the West than Westerners to hate Russia...

Russians are living in a crime ravaged country with poor living standards (especially for the old) which the West is partly to blame - this is one of the reasons Russians can complaine about the West as it had a direct negetive impact on the lives of many...

Russians complaine because their lives changed drastically while westerners complaine because Russia did something "Undemocratic" that had no effect on them at all.

-Dima

The USSR was our enemy, and so we tried to eliminate it. It's only natural.


This was all talked about in the "who is poisining russian dissidents" thread no point in repeating everything here too.

I was using it as an example of supposed anti-Russian bias.

[Smersh]

The USSR was our enemy, and so we tried to eliminate it. It's only natural...

I like that you can admit this.

[TheStorm]

I like that you can admit this.

Why would I deny it?

[dimasorokine]

The USSR was our enemy, and so we tried to eliminate it. It's only natural.

Thats the truth, it's that simple - the USSR would do the same to the US.

- the problem is a lot of people will choose their words differently and say you "Liberated the opressed people of the USSR and gave them freedom"

-Dima

[name already taken]

But I don’t think many of today’s leaders are looking for world stability – but they are looking for profit and power – this is another reason why an obedient pro-Western Russia would be praised by the West and an Independent “do it my way” Russia will always be criticized.

-Dima
Today's leaders not looking for stability is no reason for thinking stability is not needed.

And for the profit and power, since the 1990's the growth in the economy in North America has gone in the pockets of the richest 10% of the population. Yes the leaders are looking for profit and no they're not looking for stability.

I don't think the west has the means to have Russia to be obedient.

General conjoncture can change. So everybody has to keep pushing.

[Smersh]

And for the profit and power, since the 1990's the growth in the economy in North America has gone in the pockets of the richest 10% of the population. Yes the leaders are looking for profit and no they're not looking for stability.

a little off topic but...
I'm suprised we have aggreement here. I said something very similiar in the "poisining dissidents thread". there, I said that there has been huge GDP growth in the USA and UK the last 15 years, but very little to no change in standard of living for ordinary people (majority of population).

we where on opposites sides on this thread, but I'm happy we can agree on this issue.

[dimasorokine]

“Today's leaders not looking for stability is no reason for thinking stability is not needed.”

I agree, I think stability IS needed and it can’t happen with one super power.

”And for the profit and power, since the 1990's the growth in the economy in North America has gone in the pockets of the richest 10% of the population. Yes the leaders are looking for profit and no they're not looking for stability.”

Again, I agree. But, are you arguing with me?

”I don't think the west has the means to have Russia to be obedient.”

Not anymore, they did in 90’s though (to an extent)

-Dima

[TheStorm]

Thats the truth, it's that simple - the USSR would do the same to the US.

- the problem is a lot of people will choose their words differently and say you "Liberated the opressed people of the USSR and gave them freedom"

-Dima

Rhetoric like that is useful but it doesn't phase me. Sometimes it's true, but ulterior motives are almost always behind it. I'm a foreign policy realist, and I wish more of my fellow Americans were as well.

[Metastaz]

yea we will always be an evil country no matter what we do.
Wrong. You will be good guys again as soon as you'll obey all orders from White House.


Of course Russia is dangerous. They have frikken bear cavalry!
Thanx a lot for such pearl for my collection! http://forum.emule-project.net/style_emoticons/default/thumbup.gif

[dimasorokine]

Rhetoric like that is useful but it doesn't phase me. Sometimes it's true, but ulterior motives are almost always behind it. I'm a foreign policy realist, and I wish more of my fellow Americans were as well.

Well said, I'm glad you're not another Kilgor :)

-Dma

[CG51]

Wait, russians can never be accused of expansionism or starting wars, right.

[dimasorokine]

Wait, russians can never be accused of expansionism or starting wars, right.

Wrong: Russia, US, UK, France etc. Are all guilty.

-Dima

[name already taken]

a little off topic but...
I'm suprised we have aggreement here. I said something very similiar in the "poisining dissidents thread". there, I said that there has been huge GDP growth in the USA and UK the last 15 years, but very little to no change in standard of living for ordinary people (majority of population).

we where on opposites sides on this thread, but I'm happy we can agree on this issue.
The majority of the population, who is supposed to lead the country, does not have the same opinion as the top richest 10% who pocketed the GDP growth of the last 15 years.

Basically, who you are up against is this top 10% of the population. Those are the ones to complain about.

The rest of the population, most of them, don't feel it has an obligation to be obedient to this top 10% who reaps the growth in the economy. In other words, they reaped the growth without our permission.

So, when you have something against the west think about this 10%. Remember, we, the 90%, are not idelogically bonded to them.

[Smersh]

The majority of the population, who is supposed to lead the country, does not have the same opinion as the top richest 10% who pocketed the GDP growth of the last 15 years.

Basically, who you are up against is this top 10% of the population. Those are the ones to complain about.

The rest of the population, most of them, don't feel it has an obligation to be obedient to this top 10% who reaps the growth in the economy. In other words, they reaped the growth without our permission.

So, when you have something against the west think about this 10%. Remember, we, the 90%, are not idelogically bonded to them.

thanks alot for that, your absolutely right.

If only more Americans and people in general realized this.

[CG51]

Wrong: Russia, US, UK, France etc. Are all guilty.

-Dima


Good post dima.



Regards

[TR1]

Russia is ****ing dangerous.

one time, about 2 years back, i was walking along the sidewalk, when i tripped on a cunningly stealthy brick lying in the middle of the sidewalk.

i think things are getting better though, or so they say.

[Jobu]

The majority of the population, who is supposed to lead the country, does not have the same opinion as the top richest 10% who pocketed the GDP growth of the last 15 years.

Basically, who you are up against is this top 10% of the population. Those are the ones to complain about.

The rest of the population, most of them, don't feel it has an obligation to be obedient to this top 10% who reaps the growth in the economy. In other words, they reaped the growth without our permission.

So, when you have something against the west think about this 10%. Remember, we, the 90%, are not idelogically bonded to them.


What a load of class-warfare drivel. The top 10% do not need your permission to benefit from a growing economy.

Stop being jealous and get a better paying job if you don't like seeing others make more than you.

[CG51]

Russia is ****ing dangerous.

one time, about 2 years back, i was walking along the sidewalk, when i tripped on a cunningly stealthy brick lying in the middle of the sidewalk.

i think things are getting better though, or so they say.

I hear that pie is the best remedy :)

[TR1]

I hear that pie is the best remedy :)
tis true. luckily comrade putin is taking pie factories back into state hands, oon pie production levels will reach sovie times.

[Smersh]

What a load of class-warfare drivel. The top 10% do not need your permission to benefit from a growing economy.

Stop being jealous and get a better paying job if you don't like seeing others make more than you.

again a bit off topic but I will respond.

I don't think there was anything about jealosy in the post. You see nothing wrong with "the top 10%" taking the majority share, maybe be all of the GDP growth in the last 15 years? (they deserved it?) Jobu its not that simple people can't just go out and get better paying jobs, whenever they want.


tis true. luckily comrade putin is taking pie factories back into state hands, oon pie production levels will reach sovie times.
because the need for profitability won't limit pie production. :)

[pr0]

Does Russia seriously want to be a partner and associate itself with us?
I don't think so.

why you dont think so?? Russia makes a lot of think to become it. and what USA make?



Of course there's no denying, however, that foreign policy "idealists" currently
control the United States' and many Western governments, with the exception of France, while Russia has a more pragmatic attitude.

for me it is exactly opposit, USA is absolutelu pragamtic and uses "ideals" only as cover to reach its interests. one standarts of democracy for west, another standarts for others countries.

[pr0]

If Russia would be more aggressive about its international perception, things could change.

if Russia will be more agressive it will be called "new propaganda" or smth like that. how do you think what can we really do for that? found newspaper in USA or what?

[pr0]

The USSR was our enemy, and so we tried to eliminate it. It's only natural.

many things that USA make now let us think that we are still your enemy. Russia made many concession to integrate to west, but after every concession only more and more needed from it and nobody makes anything at west. so the conclusion is that west is not really interested in us and we are not equal partners and even equal humans for western ppl

[Flamming_Python]

for me it is exactly opposit, USA is absolutelu pragamtic and uses "ideals" only as cover to reach its interests. one standarts of democracy for west, another standarts for others countries.

Any sensible country does this. Russia nowadays has no ideology, and openly bases all of its policies on pragmatism and furthering its interests. However, so far, it has tried to avoid stepping on too many toes.

One possible scenario for the future, is that America may slowly shake off their ideology when it comes to foreign politics at least, as more and more people around the world are becoming increasingly cynical about it, and other competitors like China, Russia, India and the EU rise to challenge it. Ideology is a relic of the Cold War.

[name already taken]

What a load of class-warfare drivel. The top 10% do not need your permission to benefit from a growing economy.

Stop being jealous and get a better paying job if you don't like seeing others make more than you.
You don't get the point. Speak with Smersh

[pr0]

Ideology is a relic of the Cold War.
for me not. ideals are very important, but they must be true ideals, not just cover.

[Flamming_Python]

for me not. ideals are very important, but they must be true ideals, not just cover.

Ideals are important for me as well.

But when it comes to foreign policy, it all ends up in the trash pile. Better to implement domestically, and set an example for others to follow.

[pr0]

But when it comes to foreign policy, it all ends up in the trash pile. Better to implement domestically, and set an example for others to follow.
it depends how to use them.

[name already taken]

What a load of class-warfare drivel. The top 10% do not need your permission to benefit from a growing economy.

Stop being jealous and get a better paying job if you don't like seeing others make more than you.
Yes they do. It's not because I'm jealous.

It's because otherwise they loose contact with reality and they become friggin dangerous.

[TheStorm]

why you dont think so?? Russia makes a lot of think to become it. and what USA make?

What many things has Russia done? It's trying to set itself up as a counterbalance to the US instead, with initiatives such as the Shanghai Cooperation Organization. And it consistently helps and protects our enemies, such as Iran.


for me it is exactly opposit, USA is absolutelu pragamtic and uses "ideals" only as cover to reach its interests. one standarts of democracy for west, another standarts for others countries.

The US hampers its own interests in the name of promoting human rights and democracy. Take our sanctions against countries we could be profitably trading and cooperating with, for example. After Thailand's recent coup, we cut off (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/5390284.stm) military assistance to them even though they are a key ally in the war on terror. Russia, on the other hand, deals with anyone and everyone. It doesn't go around complaining to other countries about their human rights record or government, or maintain lists like this (http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/irf/).


many things that USA make now let us think that we are still your enemy.

I could say the same in reverse.


Russia made many concession to integrate to west, but after every concession only more and more needed from it and nobody makes anything at west. so the conclusion is that west is not really interested in us and we are not equal partners and even equal humans for western ppl

What concessions?

[pr0]

I could say the same in reverse.

why? have we got many military bases near american borders? and establish more and more new?

[Smersh]

why? have we got many military bases near american borders? and establish more and more new?

simple answer, No.

[TheStorm]

why? have we got many military bases near american borders? and establish more and more new?

No. But like I said:


It's trying to set itself up as a counterbalance to the US instead, with initiatives such as the Shanghai Cooperation Organization. And it consistently helps and protects our enemies, such as Iran.

[pr0]

No. But like I said:
we need allies, USA doesn`t ally with us. i can object that USA protects estonia which discriminates russian minority, USA supports strongly antirussian saakashvili in georgia.

[TheStorm]

we need allies, USA doesn`t ally with us. i can object that USA protects estonia which discriminates russian minority, USA supports strongly antirussian saakashvili in georgia.

It seems that this argument has become circular. I would say that Russia doesn't want to ally with the US.

If this impasse is to be overcome, a serious effort will have to be made at working out our differences and creating a plan for cooperation in the future. Unfortunately, I don't think the political will exists on either side for that to happen.

[pr0]

It seems that this argument has become circular. I would say that Russia doesn't want to ally with the US.

to not made them circular it is needed to watch the dates of the steps of Russia or USA toward or backward each other.

[Flamming_Python]

No. But like I said:

Well really, that came after American bases were set up in Central Asia, Russia's interests were undermined in the causcaus, NATO spread to Russia's borders, the colour revolutions in Ukraine, Georgia & Kyrgyzstan, and Western politicians began attacking Russia for its lack of democracy.

Or am I mistaken?

[SBL]

Poisoning spies is so Cold War.

[TheStorm]

Well really, that came after American bases were set up in Central Asia, Russia's interests were undermined in the causcaus, NATO spread to Russia's borders, the colour revolutions in Ukraine, Georgia & Kyrgyzstan, and Western politicians began attacking Russia for its lack of democracy.

Or am I mistaken?

The question of "who started it" can be subject to lengthy debate. But personally, I never saw that Russia wanted to be a friend of the US - it wanted increased cooperation, perhaps, during the first years after the fall of the USSR, but it never made serious efforts toward partnership with the West.

In light of that, the US's effort to increase its sphere of influence was logical.

[Smersh]

after the fall of the USSR, but it never made serious efforts toward partnership with the West.

In light of that, the US's effort to increase its sphere of influence was logical.

I would say the United States and the west in general is equally or more guilty of not making any serious efforts toward partnership with Russia. You pointed out that Russia did make some effort in the first years after the collapse of the USSR, but the US for instance did not even make an effor then.

and increasing the 'sphere of influence' means establishing military bases.

[Metastaz]

I would say that Russia doesn't want to ally with the US. It's illogical to ally with the enemy, isn't it?


Poisoning spies is so Cold War.Babbling provoking and proofless BS about "poisoning spies" is so Cold War.


I never saw that Russia wanted to be a friend of the USThen you must be blind - remember what Putin did right after 9.11.

Smersh, if you look at USA-RU relations in 91-today sharply, you'll see for sure, that attitude of USA towards Russia is attitude of a winner towards defeated enemy. Such attitude is not aiding of establishing partnership, isn't it?

[TheStorm]

I would say the United States and the west in general is equally or more guilty of not making any serious efforts toward partnership with Russia. You pointed out that Russia did make some effort in the first years after the collapse of the USSR, but the US for instance did not even make an effor then.

The United States provided economic aid to Russia after the fall of the USSR. But I'll admit an equal share of the blame lies on the United States' shoulders.

[TheStorm]

It's illogical to ally with the enemy, isn't it?

:cantbeli:

You think? Then if we're the enemy, what's with all the hard-done-by pissing and moaning from the Russians here?


Then you must be blind - remember what Putin did right after 9.11.

rofl

What, exactly? Promise to assist us in the WOT? Like virtually every other country in the world, enemies like Iran included?

[Metastaz]

TheStorm, concessions, that Eltsyn made to USA, both political and economical, is incomparable with any economic aid (which, must I mention, didn't help a bit).


what's with all the hard-done-by pissing and moaning from the Russians here?
What are you talking about?


What, exactly? Promise to assist us in the WOT? Like virtually every other country in the world, enemies like Iran included?You can't remember a bit, just as I expected. Bad for you.

[TheStorm]

TheStorm, concessions, that Eltsyn made to USA, both political and economical, is incomparable with any economic aid (which, must I mention, didn't help a bit).

What concessions?

[TheStorm]

What are you talking about?

What behavior do they expect from an enemy? They're acting as if our actions are unfair.


You can't remember a bit, just as I expected. Bad for you.

I don't have time to play games with you. Show me what profound action Putin took, or this is just a red herring.

[Metastaz]

What behavior do they expect from an enemy? They're acting as if our actions are unfair.Same as you. Do you remember "Russia sent new weapons to Saddam like GSM jammers" screaming all over western media? I wonder what would happened if Russia support Iraqi Resistance openly, sending them Igla anti-air and Vampire anti-tank missile? As you did with dushmans in Afgan?

[TheStorm]

I wonder what would happened if Russia support Iraqi Resistance openly, sending them Igla anti-air and Vampire anti-tank missile?

I wouldn't be surprised if it did that. After all, they are openly supporting and providing weapons to our other enemies, including those that do support the insurgency, so there's no reason to think it would have any qualms about it.

[Alan]

I have a new theory about Litvinenko... and given the bull**** already out there I can't see how this onre is any worse.

HE KILLED HIMSELF! To piss off Putin.

Yes, that's right, he munched down that Polonium like freakin Christmas candy and laughed, saying..

"Muwahahaha, this'll teach you Vlad, now they'll be UP your ass with flashlights. Oh yesssss..."

[Loki77]

"Russia Sees Itself as a Country that Is Self-Sufficient"


http://www.warandpeace.ru/en/commentaries/view/5690/?PHPSESSID=0fba644e0a1faca02864ce83ac17a2a6

[Flamming_Python]

I don't have time to play games with you. Show me what profound action Putin took, or this is just a red herring.

Well he assisted America in setting up bases in ex-Soviet Central Asia.

[Flamming_Python]

I wouldn't be surprised if it did that. After all, they are openly supporting and providing weapons to our other enemies, including those that do support the insurgency, so there's no reason to think it would have any qualms about it.

If Russia was supplying the Iraqi insurgency, the effects would be a lot more noticeable than they are now.

Ridiculous assertation with your Iran example. What is America doing supplying weapons to Georgia? We supplied Iran with a few 40KM range anti-air TOR's, and you are funding the rearnment of the whole Georgian military, which has kept calling to retake Abkhazia and South Ossetia by any means neccessery.

Don't even bother throwing in "oh but they're a democracy", "we are helping them defend freedom".

However, I realise that at the end of the day, politics is bull****, and Russia and the USA are just going to keep going at it, until China and India step up to the game. In short, everyone is to blame for arming everyone else.

[Smersh]

SPIEGEL: There have also been discordant notes in your relationship with the European Union. At the summit in Helsinki, President (Vladimir) Putin refused to lift Russia's embargo against Polish meat shipments.

Ivanov: I am actually the defense minister, so meat is not exactly my field. This is a question of Russian-Polish relations, not our relationship to the EU.

[TheStorm]

Well he assisted America in setting up bases in ex-Soviet Central Asia.

Significant, but not extraordinary. Many other countries contributed in a equal or greater way.


Ridiculous assertation with your Iran example.

An example of Russia arming an enemy of ours.


What is America doing supplying weapons to Georgia?

Arming an ally. Like Russia is doing with Iran.


We supplied Iran with a few 40KM range anti-air TOR's, and you are funding the rearnment of the whole Georgian military, which has kept calling to retake Abkhazia and South Ossetia by any means neccessery.

Georgia is dealing with separatist regions. Does Chechnya ring a bell? How about Kosovo?

Iran, on the other hand, funds and arms terrorists which have killed hundreds of innocents.

[Alan]

Georgia is dealing with separatist regions.



Don't. Get. Me. Started.

[TR1]

Don't. Get. Me. Started.
lol, Alan why resond to someone who has no knowlege and experience when pertaining to the region. let him idolize the "lighthouse of democracy". what a joke.

[Alan]

lol, Alan why resond to someone who has no knowlege and experience when pertaining to the region. let him idolize the "lighthouse of democracy". what a joke.


True.

Mishiko has actually become the common joke target at my house.

Here's one

What do you call a rat with a pink scarf on its head?

[koozya]

Arming an ally. Like Russia is doing with Iran.




so its ok for US to arm an ally, but for Russia its bad right?
if not stop puting the argument that Russaia suppliys Iran.

[TheStorm]

so its ok for US to arm an ally, but for Russia its bad right?
if not stop puting the argument that Russaia suppliys Iran.

Talk about a strawman. Russians here were the ones to start complaining about the arming of third parties, not me.

[TheStorm]

let him idolize the "lighthouse of democracy". what a joke.

Another strawman. Is that the best you can pull out of your ass? The only person mentioning democracy here is you.

[dimasorokine]

Another strawman. Is that the best you can pull out of your ass? The only person mentioning democracy here is you.

You don't have to respond to all the posts you know, just the ones you see worthy arguing against.

-Dima

[TheStorm]

You don't have to respond to all the posts you know, just the ones you see worthy arguing against.

-Dima

Of course. And I may well do that in some cases.

[Metastaz]

If Russia was supplying the Iraqi insurgency, the effects would be a lot more noticeable than they are now. Yeah, like 30-50 "heroes in zinc" per day.



Don't even bother throwing in "oh but they're a democracy", "we are helping them defend freedom". And we are helping Iran to defend themselvels from Evil Empire aggression. "You have oil, but not democracy? Then we're coming!" (c)



What do you call a rat with a pink scarf on its head? I prefer "warrior in jackal's hide" expression. :)