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Clearday-TRForce
12-05-2006, 04:01 AM
Who Lost Turkey?

Owen Matthews
Newsweek International

Dec. 11, 2006 issue - Benedict xvi stood, shoeless, side by side with the Mufti of Istanbul beneath the cavernous great dome of onetime Constantinople's famed Blue Mosque, palms upraised in the traditional Muslim gesture of peace and supplication. What precisely the pope prayed for is a matter between himself and his maker—but surely it involved healing between Christians and Muslims, an issue that has come to define his pontificate and his era. When prayer becomes a geopolitical strategy, there's a problem. The most immediate: an imminent breakdown of relations between Turkey and the European Union. Not so long ago, it seemed that Europe would overcome prejudice and define itself as an ideology rather than a geography, a way of being in the world rather than a mere agglomeration of nation-states. But that chance is now lost. "Turkey will never be a full member of the EU," predicts British M.E.P. Daniel Hannan. "There's a dawning realization of that reality on all sides."

This is a tragedy—a catastrophe, potentially—of epochal proportions. Europe's engagement with Turkey was a chance to show the world that the West is not incompatible with the East, that a democratic Muslim nation can be just as modern and European as a Christian one. As Turkey's Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan said recently, what's at stake is nothing less than "world peace, fighting global terror and the clash of civilizations." A European Turkey could have been a model for the rest of the Muslim world, too, playing "constructively the role the Ottoman Empire once played destructively—a bridge between the East and West," argues Egyptian political thinker Abdel Monem Said Aly. Accepting Turkey might well have helped Europe cope with its own issues of Muslim integration and identity. And for Turkey itself the lure of EU membership was a force for social transformation. The nation has come far in recent years; but it still has far to go in jettisoning its authoritarian legacy and creating a democracy that reaches broader and more deeply among its culturally and ethnically diverse peoples.

Now come the recriminations, with fingers pointing this way and that. Indeed, a glittery cast of geopolitical notables gathered just last week in Brussels for a symposium aptly titled, "Who Lost Turkey?" EU Enlargement Commissioner Olli Rehn has worked hard to avoid what he has called a "train wreck," long seen coming but difficult to stop. The proximate causes are numerous as they are petty, from bickering over Cyprus to a vote by the French Parliament criminalizing denial of Armenian "genocide" at the hands of the Turks in 1915. The rift isn't formal yet, as the EU will likely opt for only a face-saving partial suspension of negotiations after a deadlock on Cyprus failed to be resolved last week. But it takes no special reading between the lines to see that a fundamental tipping point has been reached. Late last week Cyprus threatened to "veto" Turkey's entire bid. French presidential candidate Nicolas Sarkozy, kicking off his campaign, also called for the suspension of further talks. "Turkey's place is not in the EU," said he.

Officially, politicians in Ankara insist that they will plod on regardless. "There is no Plan B," says Foreign Minister Abdullah Gul. "Our goal is to continue on the same road" toward EU membership. Yet in truth, with the EU as a guiding light, Turkey now risks careering off on an entirely different geopolitical trajectory, the direction and consequences of which can only be guessed at. Indeed, attitudes are already changing. A recent poll in the newspaper Milliyet shows support for joining the EU has fallen to just one third, down from 67 percent in 2004. If they don't want us, the prevailing sentiment goes, we don't want them. Europeans, meanwhile, are doing some devaluing of their own. Said Rehn last week: "Turkey's strategic importance should not be exaggerated."

Now what? Gul and others may speak of "business as usual," but European pressure has been the catalyst of a host of vital reforms in recent years that no internal Turkish political force could ever have accomplished. They range from reducing the role of the military in politics to granting cultural rights to the country's 14 million Kurds. Without the gravitational pull of EU membership, will these changes continue? Or will the ethnic, religious and cultural wars that have long raged beneath the surface of the Turkish republic finally erupt in earnest?

The visit of the pope, a deeply controversial figure in the Islamic world, has exposed the deepest of these: tension between secular Turks and Islam. Ever since the founding of the Turkish republic on the ruins of the Ottoman Empire by Gen. Mustafa Kemal Ataturk, Turkey's rulers have looked to the secular West rather than the more religious East. With the election of the mildly Islamist government of Recep Tayyip Erdogan and his AK Party in 2002, however, that line has been blurred.

A recent study by Bosporus University found that more Turks are defining themselves by their religion these days than by their nationality; 45 percent said they were "Muslims first" (up from 36 percent in 1999) and 19 percent said they were "Turkish first" (down from 21 percent). Erdogan has taken pains not to push overtly Islamist policies—for instance, he's studiously avoided repealing Turkey's draconian law banning Islamic headscarves from government offices, schools and universities. But he sent his daughters to be educated abroad, in the United States, rather than have them remove their headscarves at a Turkish university, and in 2004 tried (but failed) to introduce a controversial law prohibiting adultery.

Erdogan's engagement with the Middle East is no less worrying for Turkey's secular elite, particularly the generals who see themselves as the guardians of Ataturk's modernizing (read: antireligious) values. He is the first Turkish leader in years who's deliberately looked East as well as West, making reform in the wider Islamic world almost as much a priority as Turkey's EU project. A devout Muslim—he recently passed out in his car during October's Ramadan fast because of low blood sugar—Erdogan has campaigned for global Islam to reinvent itself. In 2004 Ankara helped to wrest control of the Organization of the Islamic Conference from conservative Islamists and backed a worldly Turk, Ekmeleddin Ihsanoglu, as secretary-general. Last week Erdogan told an OIC session in Istanbul that women are "the most productive part of society," and that they were discriminated against in Islamic societies because of "traditions portrayed as religious rules."

That's revolutionary stuff, at least within the traditionally conservative Muslim world. But back home, Erdogan's crusading rhetoric has played into the hands of potential enemies, many of whom suspect him of being a crypto-fundamentalist and aim to use the failure of his EU bid to stop both him and his reform programs. As support for the EU wanes, so Turkish ultranationalismrises. According to a confidential AK Party poll earlier this year, more than 20 percent of first-time voters support the chauvinist Nationalist Action Party, or MHP. Its leader, Devlet Bahceli, complained last week that "the EU project is a treacherous plan designed to weaken, divide and disintegrate Turkey," and he vowed to undo "anti-Turkish" human-rights legislation (such as freedom of speech) pushed by Brussels.

A nationalist backlash could prove especially ugly at a time when the aspirations of Turkey's 14 million Kurds have been raised by half a decade of rapid (though still incomplete) liberalization. Recent unrest flaring in Turkey's southeast saw a score of towns and villages across the region wrecked in riots that brought hundreds of thousands onto the streets. And the consequences for Cyprus would be nasty, too. Already there has been talk from the opposition of absorbing the Turkish northern part of the island into Turkey itself, which would put an end to efforts to reunite the island for generations—and, of course, deliver a death blow to Turkey's lingering EU aspirations.

Perhaps most dangerous of all, Turkey's generals—the "pashas"—are becoming more vocal after years of relative silence. This year they've blasted Brussels for promoting dangerously liberal reforms from broadcasting in Kurdish to the right to nonmilitary national service. (Though, in truth, their real concern is undoubtedly the EU's insistence that the military stay out of politics.) "The Turkish armed forces will never turn a blind eye to the basic values of the Turkish republic for the sake of the EU,"p-) stormed naval forces commander Adm. Yener Karahanoglu in September. Meanwhile, there is evidence of an unholy alliance between ultranationalists and anti-EU elements in the Army, some of whose members have been implicated in attempted extrajudicial killings of Kurdish Turkish activists.

The stage is set for a showdown between the military and Erdogan next May as the AK-dominated Parliament selects Turkey's new president. The choice is entirely Erdogan's, thanks to his control of the legislature. Some speculate he will take the post himself—a move likely to infuriate Turkey's secularist bureaucracy, judiciary and military, who suspect him of harboring a hidden Islamist agenda and cannot forgive him his past as a leader of the radical Islamist Welfare Party, banned in 1997. Erdogan himself was jailed four months for sedition as recently as 1999.

Perhaps things are not as bleak as they appear. The collapse of Turkey's EU bid may sharpen the country's internal ethnic, religious and political divides—but that does not necessarily mean they will erupt into open conflict of the sort that, most recently in 1997, prompted the country's military to step in. And while the mutual disillusionment between Turkey and Europe may be deep, Turkey remains more Western, in terms of culture and economics, than it has ever been before. From this it will not retreat. "Turkey's place is in Europe; any talk of 'alternatives' is just talk," says former ambassador Ozdem Sanberk. And yes, Turks may be turning more religious. But those same polls from Bosporus University also show that support for purely religion-based political parties has fallen, from 41 percent to 25 percent, over the past seven years. In other words: religion yes, but religion-based politics, no. Meanwhile, another sign of the times: while more people now favor scrapping the longstanding ban on wearing headscarves in schools and public offices, the number of Turkish women actually wearing them has dropped from 16 to 11 percent over the past seven years.

Whatever the outcome, Turkey's struggle is going to have serious repercussions. Europe's alienated and angry Muslim minorities, for instance, will hardly be encouraged to come to terms with Western culture if Europe sends a clear signal that Turks cannot be full Europeans. And in the wider Middle East, Turkey's growing role as a model will be undermined by a break with Brussels. "Middle Easterners' disillusionment with the failures of Arab nationalism and the extremism of fundamental Islam is making them reassess the Turkish route," says Hugh Pope, a writer on regional affairs. "More and more opinion leaders see hope in what appears to be Turkey's successful synthesis of Islam and modernity." Will that leadership evaporate if Turkey fails to join the European club?

Many strategists in Washington—and not just neoconservatives—fear that an EU-Turkey split will resonate through the Muslim world as a major geopolitical defeat for Western values. "Turkey is to the West what Germany was in the cold war ... a frontline state," former U.S. ambassador to the U.N. Richard Holbrooke told EU Commissioner Rehn at the "Who Lost Turkey?" symposium. Turkey's progress "is keenly watched" by its neighbors, acknowledges Foreign Minister Gul. "We have been a rare beacon of stability in an inherently turbulent region."

Will that beacon flicker and die without the EU? "The government can't turn its back to the EU," says one Erdogan foreign-policy adviser, who is not authorized to speak on the record. "And the EU cannot turn its back on Turkey." The two sides have too much in common to split completely. Rather, there's the makings, long term, of an entente. Europeans already talk of a special partnership, short of membership. Turkey has said it will never settle for that, but we'd best hope for some accommodation. Everyone is poorer for the failure of vision that has scuppered one of the great civilizational projects of our times.

With Sami Kohen in Istanbul


This is interesting article to read but I must admit there are lots of mistakes in the article. (especially about increasing religion activitists-it is fully wrong,according to latest polls it is declining day by day)The one thing is absolutely true, there are increasing numbers in the Turkish society against EU. And everybody talks different strong allies and unions nowadays. :)

For me, EU is not necessary for us. No need to continue with this broken affairs. EU failed again.



regards,
CDTRF

signatory
12-05-2006, 05:46 AM
What a dolt. The EU don't let states in out of feel good buddy-buddy reasons. Turkey is in negotiations and fail to meet basic requirements we place upon any possible candidate, irrelevant of religion or economical status.

Turkey has just failed to prove themselves ready for a modern civilized free market society.

eugenlitwin
12-05-2006, 06:06 AM
modern and European as a Christian one. As Holland or Belgium… sound little bit to optimistic… anyway it s still plenty time to find solution.

derkrieger
12-05-2006, 06:10 AM
**** EU. That girl is hot "signatory" and that is the most important thing.

Clearday-TRForce
12-05-2006, 07:02 AM
**** EU. That girl is hot "signatory" and that is the most important thing.


:) There are different hotest lists in the world. Who can deny a hotest?

gaijinsamurai
12-05-2006, 07:07 AM
Perhaps it was never meant to be. Relations between the West and Turkey are important, but if Turkey were to be admitted to the EU (when only a tiny fraction of its landmass is located on Europe), what kind of precedent would it start?
Besides, Turkey needs to deal with some of its own issues first. Does anyone seriously think the world community would think of Germany as anything but a pariah if they continued to deny their genocide? Turks need to do some soul-searching, and decide if their continued stubborness on the Armenian issue is worth continued isolation.
Or, if they want, they can buddy-up to Syria and Iraq, but the Arabs also have long memories.
Perhaps Iran?

Clearday-TRForce
12-05-2006, 07:09 AM
Turkish bid to join Europe was a train-wreck waiting to happen
By Quentin Peel
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/81b7dc06-8405-11db-9e95-0000779e2340.html

Published: December 5 2006 02:00 | Last updated: December 5 2006 02:00

Turkey's relations with the European Union seem set to hit a new low next week, when the 25 EU member states will be asked to partially suspend membership negotiations because of their unresolved dispute over the divided island of Cyprus.

This was a train-wreck waiting to happen, ever since Cyprus was admitted to the EU in 2004 without any settlement between its Greek and Turkish communities. The danger now is that what might have been a dispute limited to the decades-old divisions between Greek and Turkish Cypriots could become a much wider confrontation between the EU and Turkey. It could sour relations for years.

In former times, such a stand-off might not have been too difficult to manage. Turkey would simply have turned to its other western ally, the US, for support. Indeed, Washington might well have put pressure on Nato allies to compromise, and after a couple of bumpy years, normal relations would have been resumed.

Today, however, Ankara's relations with Washington are almost as difficult as they are with Brussels. Tensions over the Iraq war, and Turkish fears of rising Kurdish separatism affect- ing its own Kurdish popu- lation, have caused a surge in anti-American feeling.

Turkey has never been a particularly easy ally, either for Europe or the US. But it has been one widely recognised as of vital strategic importance - first as a front line with the former Soviet Union, and now as a front line with a turbulent Middle East. Yet the latest deterioration in relations with both Brussels and Washington owes far more to the carelessness of the western allies than it does to the prickliness of the Turkish government.

The EU member states have failed to find any way of containing or resolving the Cyprus problem so that it does not affect wider relations with Turkey. It was always assumed the prospect of EU membership would galvanise Greeks and Turks on the island to see reason and agree on a settlement to end their north-south division. In the event, the Turkish Cypriots voted in favour of a settlement, while the Greek Cypriots voted against, resulting in the absurd situation where the Turkish Cypriots are still excluded and unrecognised, while the Greeks gain all the EU benefits, and can veto any relaxation towards their fellow islanders.

Perhaps understandably, the Nicosia government has exploited every opportunity to do so, including vetoing direct trade links between the EU and northern Cyprus - a decision taken by the Council of Ministers before Cyprus joined, and blocked ever since. Equally understandably, Ankara has therefore refused to extend its customs union with the EU to include Cyprus - leading to the present confrontation.

Legally, Turkey is in the wrong: it has a legal commitment to admit Greek Cypriot ships to its ports. Politically, the EU is in the wrong, in continuing the trade blockade of Turkish Cyprus. Yet no member state seems prepared to call Nicosia's bluff. Some - such as France and Austria - seem happy to see any reason to delay Turkey's accession ambitions. Other small member states are sympathetic towards little Cyprus, if it were seen to be bullied by the strategic interests of the big ones. Turkey's traditional supporters, such as Britain and Germany, seem paralysed by indecision.

Before Turkey's membership negotiations with the EU were launched on October 3 2005, it was widely rumoured that both the UK and US put pressure on the Greek Cypriot government not to block the move, by threatening to open direct links to Turkish Cyprus if they did so.

Because of the cooling in US-Turkish relations, there is little sign of such a transatlantic tie-up today. Indeed, as Washington casts round for a regional solution for Iraq, it may embrace old foes such as Iran and Syria, but no one seems to be asking Turkey to help. All the old words in Brussels and Washington about the vital strategic partnership with Ankara seem to have been quietly forgotten. Short memories will come back to haunt us.




Perhaps it was never meant to be. Relations between the West and Turkey are important, but if Turkey were to be admitted to the EU (when only a tiny fraction of its landmass is located on Europe), what kind of precedent would it start?
Besides, Turkey needs to deal with some of its own issues first. Does anyone seriously think the world community would think of Germany as anything but a pariah if they continued to deny their genocide? Turks need to do some soul-searching, and decide if their continued stubborness on the Armenian issue is worth continued isolation.
Or, if they want, they can buddy-up to Syria and Iraq, but the Arabs also have long memories.
Perhaps Iran?

These are tiny issues and absolutely not important. If all of us can solve so-called armenian genocide,everything will be better? wont? it is bs. You need to do some soul-searching about Indian genocide by Britons, Tazmania genocide by Australians, Algeria genocide by french...you need it first than us. I dont need your bad cash, give it yourself to spend around. Ridiculous.



regards,
CDTRF

gaijinsamurai
12-05-2006, 07:17 AM
At least we've admitted to what we've done. That's a start.

derkrieger
12-05-2006, 07:26 AM
At least we've admitted to what we've done. That's a start.
Only zhe Germans pal, only zhe Germans.

and seriously dont you see some intentional moves in german society to trivialize the issue of the volk's participation in Holocaust? ( Iknow this aint the right place 2 discuss that issue) People started to act as if everybody was a Von Stauffenberg, all of a sudden. Funny isnt it?

gaijinsamurai
12-05-2006, 07:37 AM
Why do I need to do soul-searching about "Algeria genocide by French, India genocide by British, and Tasmania genocide by Australians"? I happen to be from none of those countries.
If Turks want to try to intimidate French for taking a strong stand on the genocide issue, fine; but don't start crying when they say "sorry, but no" to your EU membership request.
Tough luck.

Loki77
12-05-2006, 07:42 AM
Why to America want so much the Turkey in the EU???

Kant
12-05-2006, 08:08 AM
Why do I need to do soul-searching about "Algeria genocide by French, India genocide by British, and Tasmania genocide by Australians"? I happen to be from none of those countries.
If Turks want to try to intimidate French for taking a strong stand on the genocide issue, fine; but don't start crying when they say "sorry, but no" to your EU membership request.
Tough luck.

?
123456789

gaijinsamurai
12-05-2006, 08:25 AM
I don't know either. Ask Clearday-TRforce, as he's the one who thinks I ought to be searching my soul over it.

Raven_gr
12-05-2006, 09:25 AM
The Turks had to correspond to their commitments and failed to do so. It is as simple as that. That is hardly the E.U's fault. In fact backing off from the ascession criteria, which so many other countries effectively fullfilled and are now member states, in order to accept Turkey to its midsts would only weaken the whole union. The foundations of the E.U cannot only be based on monetary issues alone, they must also be based on matters of politics, law and most of all principle.

It is not only the issue of the Armenian Genoside that divides Europe and Turkey. There is a chasm between the interpretations of fundemental issues such as democracy, human rights, the use of force by the state, implementation of politics by the state, the rule of law, freedom of speach, political institutions, etc that set the two sides appart. Sure, Turkey is much more democratic than most of the other muslim countries, but in regard to other European countries it falls between something less than democracy and something more than a dictatorship.

Should the door to Turkey be closed shut? The simple answer is "no". Europe needs a democratic Turkey, a neighbour that shares the same values. However at he same time if we are to forfeit all the things that make the E.U and are forming the continent as a union of peoples, law and principles in order to make Turkey -as it is now- a member, then it won't be Turkey joining the west, but Europe joining the east.

The democracies of Europe have traveled a long way, a path of revolts, revolutions and two world wars, to evolve to the societies of today. This change was full of hardships and was mostly an internal prosess for each country. You cannot force democracy down ones throat. The people must demand it. Outside forces can only assist. It is for the people of Turkey to search for the path. If they chose to follow it then the west should accept the Turks as brothers. Not a second sooner.

vrb
12-05-2006, 10:07 AM
?
123456789


Probably refering to the hunting to extinction of the native inhabitants of Tasmania by European colonists. Apparently the last native of Tasmania was killed and had his scr*tal sack turned into a money purse.

Sick times...sick people....relatively ancient history........

Ergnkon
12-05-2006, 10:45 AM
Since Turkey never, ever going to be member of the EU( despite of whatever they do) I think the true friends of Turkey are the ones (Nicolas Sarkozy) and anyone who tells the truth about their eventual faith on this matter.

The accession talks are already stalled and it'll stay that way untill Turkey gives into some of the unacceptable demands for them. They should make a use for this opportunity and pull out for good. The best way for both, the EU and Turkey.

Clearday-TRForce
12-05-2006, 10:53 AM
Since Turkey never, ever going to be member of the EU( despite of whatever they do) I think the true friends of Turkey are the ones (Nicolas Sarkozy) and anyone who tells the truth about their eventual faith on this matter.

The accession talks are already stalled and it'll stay that way untill Turkey gives into some of the unacceptable demands for them. They should make a use for this opportunity and pull out for good. The best way for both, the EU and Turkey.


Haha, it is nonsense, there are also over 7 ml Turks in Germany-Holland-Belgium-Britain-Austria-Sweden-Bulgaria-Greece....and this thing is over than many countries in the EU.

So you need to send them to Turkey back, coz Turkey has also many people in the EU. What is next deal for you?
Euuu...p-)




The Turks had to correspond to their commitments and failed to do so. It is as simple as that. That is hardly the E.U's fault. In fact backing off from the ascession criteria, which so many other countries effectively fullfilled and are now member states, in order to accept Turkey to its midsts would only weaken the whole union. The foundations of the E.U cannot only be based on monetary issues alone, they must also be based on matters of politics, law and most of all principle.

It is not only the issue of the Armenian Genoside that divides Europe and Turkey. There is a chasm between the interpretations of fundemental issues such as democracy, human rights, the use of force by the state, implementation of politics by the state, the rule of law, freedom of speach, political institutions, etc that set the two sides appart. Sure, Turkey is much more democratic than most of the other muslim countries, but in regard to other European countries it falls between something less than democracy and something more than a dictatorship.

Should the door to Turkey be closed shut? The simple answer is "no". Europe needs a democratic Turkey, a neighbour that shares the same values. However at he same time if we are to forfeit all the things that make the E.U and are forming the continent as a union of peoples, law and principles in order to make Turkey -as it is now- a member, then it won't be Turkey joining the west, but Europe joining the east.

The democracies of Europe have traveled a long way, a path of revolts, revolutions and two world wars, to evolve to the societies of today. This change was full of hardships and was mostly an internal prosess for each country. You cannot force democracy down ones throat. The people must demand it. Outside forces can only assist. It is for the people of Turkey to search for the path. If they chose to follow it then the west should accept the Turks as brothers. Not a second sooner.


Engineered thoughts. Simple. You are a Greek. So you are a member of same wagonists as a greek. Could we find a positive view from a Greek? no way...get a drink. "Europe joining the east???" yeah you right coz you need to join into this due to energy,politics,economics,widing a vision using democracy into other areas...Could you understand it? I dont think so, coz anti-turkish soul spreading in veils.

Ergnkon
12-05-2006, 11:00 AM
Haha, it is nonsense, there are also over 7 ml Turks in Germany-Holland-Belgium-Britain-Austria-Sweden-Bulgaria-Greece....and this thing is over than many countries in the EU.

So you need to send them to Turkey back, coz Turkey has also many people in the EU. What is next deal for you?
Euuu...p-)

Wtf are you talking about? I think you quoted the wrong person, cuz you just don't make any sense....at least not to me.


Or, if they want, they can buddy-up to Syria and Iraq, but the Arabs also have long memories.
Perhaps Iran?

They've been invited by the Shangai Group several times already, so that could be one of the options.

eugenlitwin
12-05-2006, 12:32 PM
Why to America want so much the Turkey in the EU???

Make EU softer...actually i had a same with opinion, but Turkish members of MF forum completely changed it…

Chimera
12-05-2006, 01:19 PM
Turkish members of MP forum confimed me in my opinion that they should not join.

US positions concerning this issue confirmed me in this opinion too.

They don't even satisfy basic requirements to enter.

Moreover, I am proud to say that UE has christian roots and traditions, and that a muslim country (or almost muslim) shouldn't enter.

I don't want them to join, and i'm glad to hear that more and more people in turkey don't want to be part of the Union.

Loki77
12-05-2006, 01:53 PM
Originally Posted by Clearday-TRForce Haha, it is nonsense, there are also over 7 ml Turks in Germany-Holland-Belgium-Britain-Austria-Sweden-Bulgaria-Greece....and this thing is over than many countries in the EU.

So you need to send them to Turkey back, coz Turkey has also many people in the EU. What is next deal for you?
Euuu...p-)

Hahahhhh.....Blackmailer. Typically Turkish.. And Mexicans in the America?

kosse
12-05-2006, 02:00 PM
Turkish members of MP forum confimed me in my opinion that they should not join.

US positions concerning this issue confirmed me in this opinion too.

They don't even satisfy basic requirements to enter.

Moreover, I am proud to say that UE has christian roots and traditions, and that a muslim country (or almost muslim) shouldn't enter.

I don't want them to join, and i'm glad to hear that more and more people in turkey don't want to be part of the Union.

Yep. They really have contributed to anti-Turkish opinion in this thread. Saying that not accepting Turkey is EU's failure made me first angry and then sad. They are just so clueless. I don't agree on the religious part though.

Loki77
12-05-2006, 02:28 PM
Chirac and Merkel Want Deadline for Turkey

http://www.zaman.com/?bl=hotnews&alt=&trh=20061205&hn=38953

annihilation
12-05-2006, 02:29 PM
Why to America want so much the Turkey in the EU???

B/c we ****ed up so badly in Iraq that we need some image of "normal tolerant civilization" in the middle east. My brother in law says it would make a great example to the rest of the middle east that the rest of world doesn't shun them or think of them less. But my question is why does Europe have to take the bullet and except turkey.

achilles
12-05-2006, 03:18 PM
Engineered thoughts. Simple. You are a Greek. So you are a member of same wagonists as a greek. Could we find a positive view from a Greek? no way...get a drink.

Do you actually understand what you read Clearday?? Raven's post was not only spot on but also positive and reconciliatory. Read it for what it is and dont rush into quick aphorisms of the "you are all greeks" kind.

Clearday-TRForce
12-05-2006, 04:02 PM
Hahahhhh.....Blackmailer. Typically Turkish.. And Mexicans in the America?


Typically Loki.




Achilles, mate as you very much know, when some ones see a Turkish headline or thread, suddenly stuck in with his bias opinions. Excuse me, but I very bored with same minded people around saying same things day by day and no have minimal margine to think twice or others. This is why we discuss in first line in first scene.

I easily bet, if we were Christians, everybody will welcome us with great respect due to our history and potential...But being a muslim is really badass thing for extreme minds in the EU and thier valued people. It means it is just like middle age period...

I only want to say the world is in the 21th century. If someones try to be a part of 10-18 centuries, so go on and leave me alone with others.

I again bet some of yours will give us different stories, but everyody know it is real and it is f..king real. What could we do for you?

My answer: Nothing

what could you do for us?

My answer: Nothing

so have a drink (raki with sirtaki) and get rest.



regards ladies
CDTRF

achilles
12-05-2006, 04:28 PM
I easily bet, if we were Christians, everybody will welcome us with great respect due to our history and potential...But being a muslim is really badass thing for extreme minds in the EU and thier valued people. It means it is just like middle age period...

Its not a matter of religion CD. Its primarily a matter of economics, politics and history. The religous parlance is just an excuse for your up-to-now inadequate performance towards fullfilling the european prerequisites.

Might find myself in Constantinople at some point in 2007. Got some of the good raki or what?

annihilation
12-05-2006, 04:44 PM
What is the reason that turkey wants to join so badly the EU? Im just curious.

Clearday-TRForce
12-05-2006, 04:51 PM
Its not a matter of religion CD. Its primarily a matter of economics, politics and history. The religous parlance is just an excuse for your up-to-now inadequate performance towards fullfilling the european prerequisites.

Might find myself in Constantinople at some point in 2007. Got some of the good raki or what?


Istanbul (Constantinople) waits for you to drink a mild "raki"(Mey Raki - traditional one) with gorgeous "meze"s.




Its not a matter of religion CD. Its primarily a matter of economics, politics and history. The religous parlance is just an excuse for your up-to-now inadequate performance towards fullfilling the european prerequisites.


EU is trying to manage Turkey in domestic and foreign affairs. But they know it is not possible as you wish. Coz it is not a small country...so some troubles is very normal and waited. The bad thing what is the main proposal-advantage of EU against other world? what does make it more stable and huge? against Turkey or with Turkey?

If it stays neutral but special,is it fullfilling its vision? or not?

exarmyguard
12-05-2006, 05:43 PM
Turkey is NOT a European country. Why don't they invite Iceland or the Phillipines to join the EU, because it would make just as much sense.

turan8
12-05-2006, 05:56 PM
Don't worry Clearday, in Germany, we're the only ones making babies, sooner or later, we'll rule that country by just numbers! And Germany is the King of EU economy, so sooner or later we'll rule EU also!

Ergnkon
12-05-2006, 06:07 PM
Chirac and Merkel Want Deadline for Turkey

http://www.zaman.com/?bl=hotnews&alt...61205&hn=38953

Oh ****, I think they chickened out :(

Merkel speaks against hard deadlines for Turkey

Germany has rejected the idea of the European Union setting any ultimatums for Turkey over its entry negotiations

http://www.euronews.net/create_html.php?page=accueil_info&article=394515&lng=1



Turkey is NOT a European country. Why don't they invite Iceland or the Phillipines to join the EU, because it would make just as much sense.


I think they were encouraged with the Cyprus' membership :)



If Turks want to try to intimidate French for taking a strong stand on the genocide issue, fine; but don't start crying when they say "sorry, but no" to your EU membership request.
Tough luck.

I think you missed the point of whoever said that to you.

Turks just wonders how the hell countries like them became a member? why didn't they have to do something about their bloody past before becoming a member? was it beacuse the people they killed was muslims? That's it....and of course they're wondering(and gradually finding out) if new cretarias being invented just for Turkey. Idon't think they mind the French law as long as it keeps them out of EU.

annihilation
12-05-2006, 08:08 PM
Don't worry Clearday, in Germany, we're the only ones making babies, sooner or later, we'll rule that country by just numbers! And Germany is the King of EU economy, so sooner or later we'll rule EU also!


That would be a sad day.

turan8
12-05-2006, 08:24 PM
Sad day for who? Not for us!

annihilation
12-05-2006, 08:50 PM
Sad day for who? Not for us!

Not for you but it would be for germany as a whole. Germany is germany I'd like it to stay the way it is with its customs and traditions. Not over taken by another culture.

204 Kaymaz
12-05-2006, 09:23 PM
eu will crash and burn sooner or later...

turan8
12-05-2006, 09:23 PM
It was your decision to bring them there. They have just as much right to exist and be part of Germany as "Germans". You reap what you sew.

Same with france and it's Muslims Algerians and such: they colonized the place and now they reaping the fruits of their labor; civil unrest and a supplanting of their culture.

annihilation
12-05-2006, 10:32 PM
It was your decision to bring them there. They have just as much right to exist and be part of Germany as "Germans". You reap what you sew.

Same with france and it's Muslims Algerians and such: they colonized the place and now they reaping the fruits of their labor; civil unrest and a supplanting of their culture.


How does colonization = immigration????

turan8
12-05-2006, 11:32 PM
Immigration was the direct result of Colonization in the instance of France, due to the collapse of their former colonies, many Algerians and Moroccans followed them back to France during their retreat. This is supported by the fact that Frances largest periods of population growth was in the 1950's and NOT due to a bay boom in France; it was the Algerian and Moroccan immigrants.

In Germany, the Turks are there entirely at the request of Germany itself....

Raven_gr
12-06-2006, 08:24 AM
Everytime one tries to start a discussion and our friends from the east feel getting, rightfully or not, cornered they strike back with the usual 7 year old crybaby mentality of a bully nobody wants to play with and retaliates by waving his fist and boasting about his new playstation he got for christmas. Way to go.

I didn't state anything accusatory and I get an intelligent responce of something like" you Greek, you enemy, you biased" and on top of that by none other than Clearday, maybe the least zealous of the Braddy Banch.

Clearday-TRForce
12-06-2006, 10:45 AM
Everytime one tries to start a discussion and our friends from the east feel getting, rightfully or not, cornered they strike back with the usual 7 year old crybaby mentality of a bully nobody wants to play with and retaliates by waving his fist and boasting about his new playstation he got for christmas. Way to go.

I didn't state anything accusatory and I get an intelligent responce of something like" you Greek, you enemy, you biased" and on top of that by none other than Clearday, maybe the least zealous of the Braddy Banch.



thanks, very friendly. Any more?

Loki77
12-06-2006, 05:07 PM
Don't worry Clearday, in Germany, we're the only ones making babies, sooner or later, we'll rule that country by just numbers! And Germany is the King of EU economy, so sooner or later we'll rule EU also!


Are you nutt?
DO You know the history of the Germany?

DC@KIll
12-06-2006, 05:36 PM
Perhaps it was never meant to be. Relations between the West and Turkey are important, but if Turkey were to be admitted to the EU (when only a tiny fraction of its landmass is located on Europe), what kind of precedent would it start?
Besides, Turkey needs to deal with some of its own issues first. Does anyone seriously think the world community would think of Germany as anything but a pariah if they continued to deny their genocide? Turks need to do some soul-searching, and decide if their continued stubborness on the Armenian issue is worth continued isolation.



I believe that Armenian business can have nothing to do with our EU applications. However I do think that the Cyprus issue will have to solved first.


Its not a matter of religion CD. Its primarily a matter of economics, politics and history.


So what's MALTA, Estonia,Hungary, Latvia ,Lithuania, Slovakia,Slovenia,Bulgaria, and Romania have to offer in terms of economy and industrialisation then?

eugenlitwin
12-06-2006, 06:49 PM
Don't worry Clearday, in Germany, we're the only ones making babies, sooner or later, we'll rule that country by just numbers! And Germany is the King of EU economy, so sooner or later we'll rule EU also!


Your guys maybe would take over north Germany but not a south…

Loki77
12-06-2006, 06:54 PM
Your guys maybe would take over north Germany but not a south…

why they would take over north but not a south?

saladin
12-06-2006, 07:12 PM
why they would take over north but not a south?
A hint to different birth rate? If that is the case, the central Germany has the highest birth rates (AFAK). Anyway, a recenty study showed that in 2050, the Germans may become minority.

Loki77
12-06-2006, 07:14 PM
Immigration was the direct result of Colonization in the instance of France, due to the collapse of their former colonies, many Algerians and Moroccans followed them back to France during their retreat. This is supported by the fact that Frances largest periods of population growth was in the 1950's and NOT due to a bay boom in France; it was the Algerian and Moroccan immigrants.

In Germany, the Turks are there entirely at the request of Germany itself....

Are the Kurds are part of the Turkey???

Loki77
12-06-2006, 07:19 PM
A hint to different birth rate? If that is the case, the central Germany has the highest birth rates (AFAK). Anyway, a recenty study showed that in 2050, the Germans may become minority.

I feel for the germans as scandinavian they are my cousins!!!

eugenlitwin
12-06-2006, 07:39 PM
why they would take over north but not a south?


Because of The Free State (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_state_%28government%29) of Bavaria, they would not give up homeland to "Zuagroaste" ("those who have travelled here").
They did not sigh constitution of 1949, so they just would leave “turkerike”.

Ergnkon
12-06-2006, 07:48 PM
Are the Kurds are part of the Turkey???

For a while. They're looking forward to move to Kurdistan asa it declaredes independence.

Loki77
12-06-2006, 08:35 PM
Turkey is NOT a European country. Why don't they invite Iceland or the Phillipines to join the EU, because it would make just as much sense.

Iceland in Eurotrash
No Thanx!!!!!

achilles
12-07-2006, 03:19 AM
So what's MALTA, Estonia,Hungary, Latvia ,Lithuania, Slovakia,Slovenia,Bulgaria, and Romania have to offer in terms of economy and industrialisation then?

Market expansion, labor, enhancement of the EU's international political power, among other things. Exactly what Turkey has to offer as well.

signatory
12-07-2006, 04:30 AM
Turkey is NOT a European country. Why don't they invite Iceland or the Phillipines to join the EU, because it would make just as much sense.

Eh. That's flawed logic.

Turkey is a member of the Council of Europe since 9 August 1949 and a signatory to the European Convention on Human Rights.

Iceland is too. The Philipines is not.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/4/47/COE_flag.jpg

Anyway, looks like Turkey is about to bend over again.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6216498.stm

Loki77
12-07-2006, 04:41 AM
Eh. That's flawed logic.

Turkey is a member of the Council of Europe since 9 August 1949 and a signatory to the European Convention on Human Rights.

Iceland is too. The Philipines is not.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/4/47/COE_flag.jpg

Anyway, looks like Turkey is about to bend over again.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6216498.stm


Any country is member Council of Europe. It does no difference itself Philipines also.

Clearday-TRForce
12-07-2006, 04:45 AM
Turkey 'will open port to Cyprus'

Turkey wants the northern Cypriot port of Famagusta opened to trade
Turkey has agreed to open one port and one airport to traffic from Cyprus, in an effort to break the deadlock over its EU application, Finland says.
Finland, the current EU president, said the offer was made on Wednesday.

Turkish media said the offer depended on a return compromise over northern Cyprus - but this was not confirmed.

The EU - which has threatened to suspend parts of Turkey's membership talks over its refusal to recognise Cyprus - is studying the proposal.

EU ambassadors are trying to reach a common position on Turkey ahead of a meeting of foreign ministers on Monday.

If they fail to do so, it could be up to heads of government to decide at a summit on 14-15 December.

Last week, the European Commission recommended freezing eight of the 35 chapters under which Turkey is negotiating over its entry to the EU, because of a failure to make headway over Cyprus.

'Two-way deal'

A Finnish spokesman said it was not clear whether Turkey's offer met the EU's demands.

Turkish officials said they would not disclose the details of the offer - like which port and airport were involved, or when they might be opened.

However, Turkey's Anatolia news agency said the offer depended on the EU ending the isolation of Turkish-controlled breakaway northern Cyprus, by allowing trade through Ercan airport and the port of Famagusta.

A Turkish foreign ministry source was quoted by ******* as saying: "This is a two-way deal. We would require the same number of airports and ports to be opened on each side."

BBC - http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6216498.stm


p-) it will be good to see both sides will find a common solution. Clever movement.

Loki77
12-07-2006, 04:59 AM
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/e/e5/Council_of_Europe_map.png/300px-Council_of_Europe_map.png
Council of Europe
Today, there are 46 member states, including nearly every European state.


Originally Posted by signatory http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?p=2139020#post2139020) Turkey is a member of the Council of Europe since 9 August 1949 and a signatory to the European Convention on Human Rights.
Human rights in Turkey... That is a joke!!!!
Any country is member Council of Europe. It does no difference itself Philipines also.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_of_Europe

eugenlitwin
12-07-2006, 05:21 AM
Eh. That's flawed logic.

Turkey is a member of the Council of Europe since 9 August 1949 and a signatory to the European Convention on Human Rights.

Iceland is too. The Philipines is not.



Anyway, looks like Turkey is about to bend over again.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6216498.stm


I am not sure about airport, but i am pretty sure about port it would be - Trabzonrofl rofl

Clearday-TRForce
12-07-2006, 05:27 AM
I am not sure about airport, but i am pretty sure about port it would be - Trabzonrofl rofl

Yeah it must be...Hehehp-) Trabzon's residents are very nationalist people than other common Turks.



Ancient times...
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/09/ShepherdByzempire1265.jpg/762px-ShepherdByzempire1265.jpg

Ergnkon
12-07-2006, 11:30 AM
Human rights in Turkey... That is a joke!!!!

c 'mon felleas, let be little more fair in your bashings of Turkey. Maybe you don't know, or maybe you know but won't mention it since it's Turkey you're bashing, you feel pretty comfartable in doing so, there are EU members which hasn't complied with all the EU rules when it comes to human rights and there are candidates becoming a member in a few weeks time, has worse humanrights records, not the mention their economical situation.

So don't take the Turkey bashing is for granted around here, there are people who can't stand the double standarts and will speak eventually.


Anyway, looks like Turkey is about to bend over again.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6216498.stm

I think it's the other way around. If the Isolations gets lifted, that'll mean it's the EU bending over...again.

I wish they didn't do that :(

Loki77
12-07-2006, 11:35 AM
c 'mon felleas, let be little more fair in your bashings of Turkey. Maybe you don't know, or maybe you know but won't mention it since it's Turkey you're bashing, you feel pretty comfartable in doing so, there are EU members which hasn't complied with all the EU rules when it comes to human rights and there are candidates becoming a member in a few weeks time, has worse humanrights records, not the mention their economical situation.

So don't take the Turkey bashing is for granted around here, there are people who can't stand the double standarts and will speak eventually.

Maybe Italy....Sicilia Province???
Human rights in Turkey????

Ergnkon
12-07-2006, 11:38 AM
Maybe Italy....Sicilia Province???
Human rights in Turkey????


I'm sure there are more intelligent people who know what I'm talking about. I'll leave it up to them to be fair before I mention any countries. How 'bout that? ;)

eugenlitwin
12-07-2006, 11:52 AM
Yeah it must be...Hehehp-) Trabzon's residents are very nationalist people than other common Turks.



Ancient times...
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/09/ShepherdByzempire1265.jpg/762px-ShepherdByzempire1265.jpg

Why map from 12 65? I guess Empire of Trebizond has been damage and destroyed by your ancestors and has connection to modern turkey only by name of the city…?

Mehmed's response came in the summer of 1461. He led a sizeable army from Brusa (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bursa%2C_Turkey), first to Sinope whose emir quickly surrendered, then south across Armenia to neutralize Uzun Hasan. Having isolated Trebizond, Mehmed quickly swept down upon it before the inhabitants knew he was coming, and placed it under siege. The city held out for a month before the emperor David surrendered on August 15 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/August_15), 1461 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1461)

Loki77
12-07-2006, 11:51 PM
Hot News....
[/URL] While European officials voiced cautious optimism, Cyprus said Thursday it rejected as a "mockery" Turkey's proposals to open up two ports to Cypriot traffic in order to break a deadlock over its EU membership talks.

[url]http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,2144,2263776,00.html (http://www.dw-world.de/popups/popup_lupe/0,,2263776,00.html)

Ergnkon
12-08-2006, 12:16 AM
Hot News....
[/URL] While European officials voiced cautious optimism, Cyprus said Thursday it rejected as a "mockery" Turkey's proposals to open up two ports to Cypriot traffic in order to break a deadlock over its EU membership talks.

[url]http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,2144,2263776,00.html (http://www.dw-world.de/popups/popup_lupe/0,,2263776,00.html)





Wonderful news! so it's all over for the Turks now?? Let's just hope so.

Vorian
12-09-2006, 04:31 AM
Wonderful news! so it's all over for the Turks now?? Let's just hope so.


x2. Unfortunately we haven't seen the end of this.

Loki77
12-09-2006, 04:40 AM
Wonderful news! so it's all over for the Turks now?? Let's just hope so.


Kurds..........

Canadian2urk
12-09-2006, 04:50 AM
Wonderful news! so it's all over for the Turks now?? Let's just hope so.

X2

EU's loss.:)

Loki77
12-09-2006, 04:54 AM
X2

EU's loss.:)

Thanx God!!! My country doesn't belong to Eurotrash...

eugenlitwin
12-09-2006, 06:31 AM
X2

EU's loss.:)


O man, you are so funnyrofl rofl rofl , with all your pathetic attempts of PR´s company for your country…

Clearday-TRForce
12-09-2006, 02:44 PM
O man, you are so funnyrofl rofl rofl , with all your pathetic attempts of PR´s company for your country…



woot kids and gentles

Canadian2urk
12-09-2006, 06:03 PM
O man, you are so funnyrofl rofl rofl , with all your patheticattempts of PR´s company for your country…

http://img134.imageshack.us/img134/3610/trollhb1.jpg

MalteseFalcon
12-09-2006, 07:17 PM
Wow so much angry in this thread i can feel it coming off my monitor as i read the text.

Also what criteria's haven't Turkey meet to join the EU, and the whole Cyprus conflict will continuly be a problem for Turkey, but unfortuanly due to "hatred" on both sides i don't see anything happening in the near furture.