Canada takes US mil deserters..

[Nizark]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1190714,00.html

Two American soldiers have deserted, claiming asylum in Canada rather than serve in Iraq. They argue that the war is illegal under international law

Anne McIlroy
Tuesday April 13, 2004
The Guardian

Brandon Hughey is a teenager living among strangers, thousands of miles from his friends, family and home in San Angelo, Texas. The 18-year-old is one of two American servicemen who recently deserted their units and fled to Canada to claim asylum as refugees. "We plan to argue that the war in Iraq is illegal under international law and that I have a right not to choose to participate," he says.

Hughey, who has been taken in by a Quaker couple in the Ontario city of St Catharines, spends his days preparing his legal case. For breaks, he takes solitary walks downtown. He seems mature, composed, and hopeful that he will be able to build a new life for himself in Canada.

Hughey signed up for the army when he was 17, during his final year in high school. "I joined because it was the only way I was going to get a college education," he says. He went through basic training, and in his spare time began learning about the campaign in Iraq on the internet. He says he became increasingly uncomfortable about the mission, then so disturbed that he considered killing himself. He brought his questions to a commanding officer, who told him to stop thinking so much.

Then, through the internet, he met a stranger who offered help getting to Canada. He decided to leave and drove away from his base on March 2, the night before his unit was due to ship out for the Middle East. Now he was a deserter, terrified he would be stopped for speeding as he drove for 17 hours to meet a peace activist who took him across the Canadian border. They pretended to be basketball fans, on their way to a game in Toronto.

Through the Quaker church he met his lawyer, Jeffry House, who came to Canada from the US in 1970 after he was drafted to fight in Vietnam. He had graduated from college by then, and went on to earn a reputation in Toronto as a lawyer with a strong sense of social justice. Representing Hughey, who he says is "really just a sweet kid", and Jeremy Hinzman, 25, a private who fled to Canada with his wife and child in January, has brought back memories for him.

But it will take more than youthful appeal to win over the Canadian immigration and refugee board. Last year, a record 317 Americans applied for refugee status in Canada. Some were marijuana smokers claiming persecution. Others were Muslims who said they faced human rights abuses in the US. None was accepted as a legitimate refugee. In fact, only one American has ever been accepted as having a well-founded fear of persecution, and the courts overturned that decision.

House, however, believes the soldiers have a fair chance. He plans to make his case by producing at least one high-profile expert - possibly one of the British international law specialists who have condemned the Iraq war as illegal - to argue that the campaign there violates international law and cannot be justified. He says his clients are using the same legitimate legal grounds to refuse as soldiers throughout history have used when their superior officers order them to do something illegal - such as shooting civilian children.

House knows of only been one similar case argued before the refugee board. An Iranian soldier who deserted claimed refugee status because he didn't want to use poison gas on the Kurds during his country's war with Iraq. The board was unsympathetic, but the Canadian courts eventually ruled in his favour, and he was permitted to stay.

He also plans to cite a ruling of the English court of appeal two months ago in the case of a Russian conscript, Andrey Krotov, who deserted from the Russian army after he was sent to Grozny to fight in the Chechen war. The court ruled that refugee status could be available to a conscript who refused to serve when the service would require him to violate basic rules of human conduct as defined by international law.

House is hoping that Canada's stand on the invasion of Iraq will help his clients. The prime minister at the time, Jean Chrétien, never said the war was illegal under international law, but Canada decided not to participate.

To win refugee status in Canada, as in Britain, applicants have to convince the refugee board that they face a well-founded fear of persecution at home. This can be difficult for people from countries where arbitrary arrest and torture are routine, let alone for citizens of the US, Canada's closet ally. The law also specifies that fear of persecution is not the same as fear of prosecution.

In the past, says House, the board has accepted that refugees face persecution if they risk, for example, years in jail simply for reading a banned book. "It all comes down to whether it is justified to prosecute in these circumstances."

House points out that in the US the maximum penalty for desertion during a time of war is death. He concedes that the death penalty hasn't been used since the second world war, and his clients are more likely to face five years in jail if they return home. "But there is no guarantee," he says. In Canada the courts have ruled that someone cannot be deported to another country where they face the death penalty.

He doesn't see much difference between dodging the draft, as he did in 1970, and deserting the military when you joined voluntarily, as his two clients did. "It's hard to argue that you give up your entire moral personality once you are employed as a soldier."

Jeremy Hinzman, the other soldier claiming refugee status in Canada, agrees. He enlisted on January 17 2001, four months after the September 11 terrorist attacks, but before it became clear that President Bush would go to war in Iraq. He joined the army shortly after he got married, hoping, like Hughey, to earn money for college.

He had dabbled in Zen, and in January 2002 he and his wife Nga Nguyen began attending church at the Quaker House. He felt at home with the Quaker philosophy of non-violence, and was uncomfortable with the idea that his basic army training seemed to be about breaking down the natural human inhibition against killing. He began preparing his application for conscientious objector status. Then his unit was deployed to Afghanistan, where he worked in the kitchen. Last April, his commanding officer suddenly pulled him aside at Kandahar airport and told him it was time for his hearing. Hinzman was not allowed to have a lawyer or witnesses present. The hearing took 20 minutes and his application was rejected.

Hinzman's unit returned to Fort Bragg, North Carolina, last April, but in December he received his orders to go to Iraq. In January he, his wife and their 21-month-old son Liam fled to Toronto. They too were taken in by Quakers, but now have an apartment of their own. Hinzman has become active in the peace movement in Canada, speaking at anti-war rallies. Hughey is contemplating a similiar role.

As in Britain, the process of seeking refugee status can take years, if the applicant wants to draw it out. Refugee applicants can appeal against rulings in the federal court. There is also the possibility that the minister of immigration will intervene and issue a permit to allow a rejected applicant to stay in Canada. This is thought to be unlikely under the current government, led by Paul Martin, who is trying to rebuild relations with Washington.

It was a lot simpler in the late 1960s and early 1970s, when House and around 60,000 other US citizens opposed to the Vietnam war were able simply to sign up for landed immigrant status once they crossed the border. House, however, says he is confident of getting a fair hearing for his clients, and believes they may be the first of many. He has already received an email from a US woman soldier planning to go to the west coast city of Vancouver, asking for the names of lawyers there.

Iraq, some say, could turn out to be Bush's Vietnam. How many more will follow the path to permanent exile blazed this time round by Hinzman and Hughey? House is not expecting many at the moment, but there are rumblings in the US media about the possibility of a draft in 2005 if defence secretary Donald Rumsfeld's prediction of a "long, hard slog" in Iraq and Afghanistan proves accurate. "If there is a draft," says House, "I would say the numbers could be massive."

[Seraphim]

I saw some of this on the news they had a camera with him, the excuse to get across the border was to see, I think a basketball or hockey game...cant remember which one.

[Jack Mehoff]

C-O-W-A-R-D-S

http://img21.photobucket.com/albums/v63/NastyBurger/oath.jpg

[Trigger]

Good riddance.

[American Patriot]

Hang them high.

J/K, let them do as they please.

[Jack Mehoff]

Punishment for desertion is firing squad under UCMJ. I won't shed any tears if the militaryexecute those cowards.

[scm77]

Why not let him stay? We let terrorists stay :roll:

P.S. Coward

[cavtroop4]

did he know that even there isn't a war going on, joining the military you might get involve in one later. somebody should take him out and put him out of his misery.

[Skaman]

Did we not go into significant detail concerning a thread similar to this sometime ago? Additionally, did it not inevitably wind up being a long drawn out flame war?

[TALOS]

he didnt join the military to go to war, he joined it for the education :cantbeli: if you are going to sign a contract and intend to get something for nothing you are a fraud, he is a soldier and soldiers dont join just to go to college without having to pay their dues when asked. If he had a prob with war he should have not enlisted.

[snake_eater]

They sign up for the money, benefits, and the GI bill for college tuition. Then they run when called up to serve. They're cowards.

[Midav]

*boohoo* i joined the military so i could get a college education *boohoo* and didn't think i'd have to actually fight *boohoo* this isn't fair that i may have to go to war after i volunteered to join the military *boohoo*

[Seraphim]

he didnt join the military to go to war, he joined it for the education :cantbeli: if you are going to sign a contract and intend to get something for nothing you are a fraud, he is a soldier and soldiers dont join just to go to college without having to pay their dues when asked. If he had a prob with war he should have not enlisted.


Couldnt have said it better myself.

[TALOS]

Did we not go into significant detail concerning a thread similar to this sometime ago? Additionally, did it not inevitably wind up being a long drawn out flame war?
Ducimus, are you actually in the military? what branch? where? did you sign a contract? do you intend to ignore your oath if you disagree with the current PM?

[Brozozo]

How can deserters live with themselves knowing they probably forced the army to replace their place with another young American?

[Jack Mehoff]

Did we not go into significant detail concerning a thread similar to this sometime ago? Additionally, did it not inevitably wind up being a long drawn out flame war?
Ducimus, are you actually in the military? what branch? where? did you sign a contract? do you intend to ignore your oath if you disagree with the current PM?

There goes your hard-earned Canadian tax money. rofl

[snake_eater]

What would he do if his government sent him to Iraq? Run to Mexico?

[Commander Cool]

I'm the bigget American patriot around, however if I was called to go to Iraq, I would probably flee to Canada too. It has nothing to do with being a coward. I just don't see any reason to go risk my life for some ****hole like Iraq which I couldn't care less about.

The US should draft all Americans of Arab decent and force them to serve in Iraq. There are hundreds of thousands of them here in Michigan alone, mooching off the country and committing crimes.

[Trigger]

I'm still waiting for ducimus to be deployed for some international crisis with an American in command. Priceless.

[Skaman]

Consciousnesses Objectors. I don’t blame these individuals. Which reservist in his right mind environed his president sending him to his death In Iraq when all he wanted was a chance to serve his nation as home as a willing and able defense force, while also receiving funding for post-secondary studies? They are welcome in my nation with open arms.

[snake_eater]

If you are in the military, then you have your duty to serve.

It is a volunteer military these days, so there is no room to complain about it. You chose to be a soldier, sailor, airman, or marine.

[Jack Mehoff]

I'm the bigget American patriot around, however if I was called to go to Iraq, I would probably flee to Canada too. It has nothing to do with being a coward. I just don't see any reason to go risk my life for some ****hole like Iraq which I couldn't care less about.


Honestly, I DON'T want to go to Iraq. I mean, who the **** want to get shot at? but if my unit gets deploy to Iraq then I'll go because it's my duty and I'm a volunteer.


The US should draft all Americans of Arab decent and force them to serve in Iraq. There are hundreds of thousands of them here in Michigan alone, mooching off the country and committing crimes

wtf?

[Skaman]

I'm the bigget American patriot around, however if I was called to go to Iraq, I would probably flee to Canada too. It has nothing to do with being a coward. I just don't see any reason to go risk my life for some ****hole like Iraq which I couldn't care less about.

The US should draft all Americans of Arab decent and force them to serve in Iraq. There are hundreds of thousands of them here in Michigan alone, mooching off the country and committing crimes.

fair enough.

[Midav]

ducimus19-- Canada is more than welcome to keep them.

They volunteered for the military, unlike Vietnam.

They signed the dotted line, they knew the risks were there.

Once the going got tough, they took off.

[Commander Cool]

Yeah I guess you're right, he willingly joined the army and he knew he might eventually get called to go somewhere he didn't want to. He should never have joined the army. And joining the military is definitely not the only way to go to college.

[Trigger]

Consciousnesses Objectors. I don’t blame these individuals. Which reservist in his right mind environed his president sending him to his death In Iraq when all he wanted was a chance to serve his nation as home as a willing and able defense force, while also receiving funding for post-secondary studies? They are welcome in my nation with open arms.

Consciousnesses Objectors? rofl rofl rofl

And you actually mock George W. Bush for his errors? Priceless.

[Jack Mehoff]

Consciousnesses Objectors. I don’t blame these individuals. Which reservist in his right mind environed his president sending him to his death In Iraq when all he wanted was a chance to serve his nation as home as a willing and able defense force, while also receiving funding for post-secondary studies? They are welcome in my nation with open arms.

Reservists are defense force? rofl Since when? rofl I hope you're only speaking for Canadian reservists.

[Abolith]

one must understand that this is the type of thinking that is encouraged in U.S. schools today. these are the sheep that did nothing but watch TV and let the libs do the thinking for them as they grew up. they joined the military to get something for what they hoped was nothing...oops time to ship out and serve in the Oath you took but now that something is expected of them, they turn and run!
I say GOOD RIDDANCE and don't come back!


Freakin cowards! :fork:

[snake_eater]

Consciousnesses Objectors. I don’t blame these individuals. Which reservist in his right mind environed his president sending him to his death In Iraq when all he wanted was a chance to serve his nation as home as a willing and able defense force, while also receiving funding for post-secondary studies? They are welcome in my nation with open arms.

Conscientious objectors don't sign up for the military. These guys signed on for money and benefits without any intention of serving. They cowards and frauds by signing up without any intention of serving.

So are you in the Canadian military? What will you do if your country sends you to a place like Iraq? Run to Mexico?

[Uncle Sam]

I'm the bigget American patriot around, however if I was called to go to Iraq, I would probably flee to Canada too. It has nothing to do with being a coward. I just don't see any reason to go risk my life for some ****hole like Iraq which I couldn't care less about.

The US should draft all Americans of Arab decent and force them to serve in Iraq. There are hundreds of thousands of them here in Michigan alone, mooching off the country and committing crimes.

No one twisted their arms to join. They didn't get drafted. They voluntarily, under their own free will, signed those papers. They took an oath. Going to war is a big possibility when you join the the Armed Forces.

[Midav]

Yup.

They volunteered for an organization that is known to do battle, in laymans terms.

It's one thing to be drafted while being a conscientious objector and taking off.

It's another to willingly join the military then cry if you may have to be shipped out.

Reminds me of the inmates where I work at "Why should I be jailed? This isn't fair! I want my phone calls! I shouldn't be here! I didn't mean to kill that woman..."

You're responsible for your own actions.

[Skaman]

Consciousnesses Objectors. I don’t blame these individuals. Which reservist in his right mind environed his president sending him to his death In Iraq when all he wanted was a chance to serve his nation as home as a willing and able defense force, while also receiving funding for post-secondary studies? They are welcome in my nation with open arms.

Conscientious objectors don't sign up for the military. These guys signed on for money and benefits without any intention of serving. They cowards and frauds by signing up without any intention of serving.

So are you in the Canadian military? What will you do if your country sends you to a place like Iraq? Run to Mexico?


I have confidence in my country to not send us into a foreign conflict without significant reason or moral grounds. As of now, I train in preparation for that day to come. SO far I have aided my nation in one humanitarian crisis, and will be the first to sign up when my nation calls upon me again.

[TALOS]

Yup.

They volunteered for an organization that is known to do battle, in laymans terms.

It's one thing to be drafted while being a conscientious objector and taking off.

It's another to willingly join the military then cry if you may have to be shipped out.

Reminds me of the inmates where I work at "Why should I be jailed? This isn't fair! I want my phone calls! I shouldn't be here! I didn't mean to kill that woman..."

You're responsible for your own actions.
Good point, many people now are unwilling to accept their obligations and will shirk all responsibility when called upon to honor their pledges or promises.

[snake_eater]

SO far I have aided my nation in one humanitarian crisis, and will be the first to sign up when my nation calls upon me again.

You make it sound like you joined the Interational Red Cross and are confident that you will never have to fight.

[Jack Mehoff]

Captain: "Why didn't you go after that armed robber?"

Coward cop: "I didn't want to go after that bank robber with a gun because I want to live ya know. I joined the law enforcement so I could give out traffic tickets."

[Skaman]

SO far I have aided my nation in one humanitarian crisis, and will be the first to sign up when my nation calls upon me again.

You make it sound like you joined the Interational Red Cross and are confident that you will never have to fight.


I would not have joined the infantry if I didn’t expect to fight. Regardless, I can see the difference between moral contribution in armed conflict and blind patriotism.

[snake_eater]

Uh-huh,

And I suppose that you would abandon your mates if you did not agree with your country's policy?

[caspermeister]

Did we not go into significant detail concerning a thread similar to this sometime ago? Additionally, did it not inevitably wind up being a long drawn out flame war?
Ducimus, are you actually in the military? what branch? where? did you sign a contract? do you intend to ignore your oath if you disagree with the current PM?

There goes your hard-earned Canadian tax money. rofl

Is Ducimus a guy who still lives in his mommy (I mean parents) basement? ;)
If he is... well he doesn't have to pay tax. :)

[Ratamacue]

I would not have joined the infantry if I didn’t expect to fight. Regardless, I can see the difference between moral contribution in armed conflict and blind patriotism.

Can you tell the difference between honor and cowardice?

[Skaman]

Uh-huh,

And I suppose that you would abandon your mates if you did not agree with your country's policy?


I don’t suspect that time will ever come, as the Canadian forces in all their history have never been sent into conflict in which they had to be ashamed, or directly opposed government policy. If I doubted the legitimacy of the Canadian forces, I would not have joined. Certain parts of Canada such as the francophone elements, readily protested conscription during the Second World War, yet these instances are rather insignificant.

[Jack Mehoff]

Military is the muscle that does all the dirty work. As for moral issues, I rather let the Americans people to decide that in this year election. Military can't really function properly if everybody think like you ducimus.

[Skaman]

I pay my taxes, yet I dont see what this has to do with anything?

[Skaman]

I would not have joined the infantry if I didn’t expect to fight. Regardless, I can see the difference between moral contribution in armed conflict and blind patriotism.

Can you tell the difference between honor and cowardice?

I would like to think I can. What I conceive to be honor and cowardice may very different to your own interpretation however. There is no solid distinction of either term.

[FallenAngel]

These guys are cowards. They want to stay in Canada- fine. But they better hope they never come back- if they do, I hope the military gives swift punishment. Dissertion during a time of war is a capital offense.

As for Ducimus, I personally have no problem with you even if you ARE an idiot sometimes. You joined your forces on the assumption that you will not be sent into battle unless it's necessary. If you are one day asked to fight for something you, as an individual, disagree with that's too bad. You are bound by an oath that- realistically- says what you think doesn't matter. It's what the people in charge think. Jack is right...the military can not function if everyone had the luxury of such freedom. If you're not willing to take the risk....don't sign up. What's that old saying?

"ours is not to reason why but to do or die."

[MaDuce]

You can't choose your wars if you join. This is not military on demand. They betrayed their comrads in the military and should be punished

[BlackRain]

Let the deserters go to Canada. Let them renounce their citizenship. If they ever return to the USA they will spent alot of ass-time at Levinworth getting sodomized. More power to them. America expects more of their citizens.

As far as Dumiscus goes, I did not actually believe that a real-life pussy could actually talk until I read this thread.

[Spearin]

I don't really know what to say.

He was obviously never meant to be a soldier, so just let him be. It would make a better Army (?) without him.

[Air_Mobile]

How ironic, my dream in life is to enlist in either the US Army or Marine Corps, and I was flat out told "no" by recruiters because I'm a Canadian citizen. Yet, these guys who are fortunate enough to be able to be US servicemen are deserting and my country looks the other way and opens it's arms to them! How disgusting.

I wonder if his unit could sneak me in as his replacement? :)

[Nizark]

If you are in the military, then you have your duty to serve.

It is a volunteer military these days, so there is no room to complain about it. You chose to be a soldier, sailor, airman, or marine.

DAMN RIGHT! No one is forced to join up, and alot do it simply for the money, as did my friend from high school, and in his last year they said, saddle up and get ready for war in iraq...he was freaked, but he went adn served the 2nd armored cav well, as did the thousands of others men and women in their respective units. This **** isn't the boy scouts, its real, and these little candy asses decided to defect. Fine, but the military has a long memory, and JAG still deals with deserters from vietnam to this day. They abandoned their country when she needed them most...maybe the gov't should ask for its money back.

[usa320]

"I joined because it was the only way I was going to get a college education,"

I think that the army needs to rethink this education thing.

I think that Soldiers who serve for a decent amount of time should get their college education paid, HOWEVER, i think that kids joining sheerly to get their tuition paid need to be blocked from entering the service. They can get financial aid like everyone else does, or WOW, HOW ABOUT THIS, THEY COULD EVEN GET A JOB THATS RIGHT, A JOB. If the 15 year old kid that couldnt pass 7th grade math can push carts at my store for 6.75 an hour, there aint no reason in hell these guys who are 18 or 19 cant get a job stocking shelves, cleaning toilets, as security guards or as gas pump tenders...When i was 18 i was making almost 300 bucks a week, more than enough to pay rent and utilities, plus about 40 bucks left over. if you set that aside for a month or so, youll have more than enough to pay tuition or for a car once the time comes. They need to find ways to pay for their education that dont put dedicated troops who care about serving at risk.

[Spearin]

How ironic, my dream in life is to enlist in either the US Army or Marine Corps, and I was flat out told "no" by recruiters because I'm a Canadian citizen. Yet, these guys who are fortunate enough to be able to be US servicemen are deserting and my country looks the other way and opens it's arms to them! How disgusting.

No comment.

[Seeds]

You should be greatful that they had the moral fibre to at least dessert rather than be dead weight on operations. It is no small thing to go to a foriegn country and risk the rejection and pain caused to their families. How many COs are over there now who have not had the guts to say what they believe. I would rather have them replaced with a willing soldier than have to worry about whether their mind was on the job.
And as for executing them... really? Macho pubescent BS aside, would you personally pull the trigger on a confused scared 18 year old boy or 25 year old man with children because they broke their oathes and had issues with the war?

[Jack Mehoff]

You should be greatful that they had the moral fibre to at least dessert rather than be dead weight on operations. It is no small thing to go to a foriegn country and risk the rejection and pain caused to their families. How many COs are over there now who have not had the guts to say what they believe. I would rather have them replaced with a willing soldier than have to worry about whether their mind was on the job.
And as for executing them... really? Macho pubescent BS aside, would you personally pull the trigger on a confused scared 18 year old boy or 25 year old man with children because they broke their oathes and had issues with the war?

Would I? You don't ****ing know what I would do.

I've heard too many asinine excuses from people like that just to avoid duty because their ******s hurt and blah blah blah.

Confused my ass, those guys are ADULTS. They KNEW desertion is breaking the law and will be punished. You don't see me robbing a bank and say that i was "confused" eventhough I knew that my action is breaking the law. I feel more sorry for the replacements to fill in the spots for those cowards because they couldn't live up to their expectations.

****ing dumbass liberals today love to portray criminals as if they are a victim of something.

[BlackRain]

You should be greatful that they had the moral fibre to at least dessert rather than be dead weight on operations. It is no small thing to go to a foriegn country and risk the rejection and pain caused to their families. How many COs are over there now who have not had the guts to say what they believe. I would rather have them replaced with a willing soldier than have to worry about whether their mind was on the job.
And as for executing them... really? Macho pubescent BS aside, would you personally pull the trigger on a confused scared 18 year old boy or 25 year old man with children because they broke their oathes and had issues with the war?

You need to think further about what you posted.

If a man deserts and then another man must replace him.

If the replacement is killed in combat then it is morally equivalent that the deserter is responsible for his death. The deserter should have taken the bullet not the replacement.

The deserter and those who support their actions are selfish and deserving of severe punishment. A deserter believes his life is more important than others.

I really don't care how old or how many children a deserter has. He is the bane of honorable fighting men, a lowly slug and not fit to clean latrines.

[Jack Mehoff]

Macho pubescent BS aside, would you personally pull the trigger on a confused scared 18 year old boy or 25 year old man with children because they broke their oathes and had issues with the war?

Believe it or not, the people who replaced them also have children and family of their own. :roll:

[Seeds]

My point is that I would rather have them replaced with a focussed asset to my team. There is no room for their attitude while deployed, and I would rather get rid of them before arriving in theatre. What they did was illegal and by my standards wrong, but in no way deserving of capital punishment.

[Jack Mehoff]

My point is that I would rather have them replaced with a focussed asset to my team. There is no room for their attitude while deployed, and I would rather get rid of them before arriving in theatre. What they did was illegal and by my standards wrong, but in no way deserving of capital punishment.

What attitude are you talking about?

[NcDeuce]

he didnt join the military to go to war, he joined it for the education :cantbeli: if you are going to sign a contract and intend to get something for nothing you are a fraud, he is a soldier and soldiers dont join just to go to college without having to pay their dues when asked. If he had a prob with war he should have not enlisted.


They sign up for the money, benefits, and the GI bill for college tuition. Then they run when called up to serve. They're cowards.


C-O-W-A-R-D-S


^ What they said...

It bothers me that we have people like this in our Armed Forces while brave men step in and put their lives on the line 24-7.

[ForceReaper]

They ARE cowards or they wouldnt have to run to Canada. They need to stand up for their beliefs like men in a court of their peers. They are not CO's(conscience objectors) because he stated that he only joined for the college money.

[SeanAshi]

For the ones who join for the college money how many actually attend college when their service is up?

[Seeds]

They ARE cowards or they wouldnt have to run to Canada. They need to stand up for their beliefs like men in a court of their peers. They are not CO's(conscience objectors) because he stated that he only joined for the college money.

Good point about the college money. The attitude I am talking about is the "I don't want to be here....the world is against me....I hate the army etc etc" These people are corrosive to morale and good order. Yopu are simply better off without them. A far better solution would be to discharge them without any benefits rather than have them go to Canada and drum up publicity

[Vance]

For the ones who join for the college money how many actually attend college when their service is up?
Depends if a college will accpet them or not. You just can't automatically get in because you were in the military and/or have the money.

[Yard Ape]

Which reservist in his right mind environed his president sending him to his death In Iraq when all he wanted was a chance to serve his nation as home as a willing and able defense force, while also receiving funding for post-secondary studies? Any person that is a volounteer in any military (including the Canadian reserves) had better accept that his/her government may give the order to go fight in some $hit hole for a cause that may not be popular. You too had better learn to deal with that or get out. The Canadian Forces is not all about BC forest fires.



And I suppose that you would abandon your mates if you did not agree with your country's policy?I don’t suspect that time will ever comeand if it does? Where will you be if Paul Martin decides we will send a BG to Iraq to help witht the reconstruction & stabilization?

[Jack Mehoff]

They ARE cowards or they wouldnt have to run to Canada. They need to stand up for their beliefs like men in a court of their peers. They are not CO's(conscience objectors) because he stated that he only joined for the college money.

Good point about the college money. The attitude I am talking about is the "I don't want to be here....the world is against me....I hate the army etc etc" These people are corrosive to morale and good order. Yopu are simply better off without them. A far better solution would be to discharge them without any benefits rather than have them go to Canada and drum up publicity

Do you think those deserters are the only one with that kind of feelings? Do you think all the marines and soldiers currently fighting in Iraq want to come home in a box?

I don't care if the deserters have bad attitude or not, but when the bullets start to fly then they will fight for their lives. Self-preservation is a powerful thing, isn't it?

[FallenAngel]

The attitude I am talking about is the "I don't want to be here....the world is against me....I hate the army etc etc" These people are corrosive to morale and good order. Yopu are simply better off without them.

If that is their attitude, then they should not have joined up. It doesn't make logical sense...why in the hell would you join an organization you hate and don't want to be a part of?

You make it sound as if the dumb f*ck had a gun pointed to his head. The poor, under-privledged kid who was confused blah blah blah.

There is NO excuse for his behavior. Being AWOL because you had a little too much liberty is one thing, but desertion in a time of war IS a capital crime.

If the kid needed money for college, here's a f*cking idea- GET A JOB! Work study programs, grants, scholarships, sponsorships, and on and on.

[Skaman]

.I am not sure about the US reserves, but do you have an option to attend post secondary universities and reserve duty simultaneously? I for example am attending University while I serve; the CF in-turn pays for my schooling. In my honest opinion, University students and the military don’t mix, hence the confusing position I am in. I was in the military before I attended school, yet now I feel more of a student than I do a soldier. The two styles of life are not very complementary. The mentality of a soldier and 'liberal' University student are not exactly harmonious. I try and hold on to both styles of life, but find myself getting tugged in the opposite direction from both sides. I struggle to make the most out both scenarios despite the overwhelming confusion. I love the Canadian forces, but I only foresee myself serving for another three years, for a total of five years. My unit recently asked me to serve on the next rotation to Bosnia, ROTO 15, yet I turned down the offer as my studies are my primary focus. I know this is hard for many of you to understand, but serving as an active reservist and attending school is no easy task. Nonetheless, I am happy with the CF and my role as an infantryman which has exposed me to opportunities and experiences many can never dream of. I don’t blame these guys for wanting to focus on their studies, rather than head off to Iraq. It’s a very compromising and confusing scenario. I guess that is the risk you make when you sign up, and inevitably you have the choice of biting the bullet, or leaving your home and not looking back. I don’t think its fair of many of you to judge these men as you can’t even comprehend the scenario they are faced with. These man completed grueling selection processes and relentless basic training and served with loyalty for many years. Rather than condemn them for what they will not do, one should praise them for what they have done.


Ducimus

[Trigger]

*Paul Rodriguez voice*
You know they're cowardly deserters 'cause they went to Canada...
Macho deserters woulda fled to Mexico esse!

J/K

Seriously: Some of you guys make me proud that Canada is a neighbor. woot

EDIT for ducimus: you make it sound like they went through SEAL training or something. Yes we can make a judgement about them. It's called right and wrong. Legal and Illegal. Black and White. Bravery and COWARDICE.

[Skaman]

Which reservist in his right mind environed his president sending him to his death In Iraq when all he wanted was a chance to serve his nation as home as a willing and able defense force, while also receiving funding for post-secondary studies? Any person that is a volounteer in any military (including the Canadian reserves) had better accept that his/her government may give the order to go fight in some $hit hole for a cause that may not be popular. You too had better learn to deal with that or get out. The Canadian Forces is not all about BC forest fires.



And I suppose that you would abandon your mates if you did not agree with your country's policy?I don’t suspect that time will ever comeand if it does? Where will you be if Paul Martin decides we will send a BG to Iraq to help witht the reconstruction & stabilization?



I have been asked this question before, and I will answer it all the same. I respect my life, I respect my nation, and I respect my Canadian forces; I would do as my nation as ked of me as I have confidence that my nation will guide us according to a platform of righteousness and morality. I have no reason to think otherwise about the Canadian government or the Canadian Forces for that matter. My direction in life is to pursue my studies in History, yet I WOULD fulfill my duty as an infantrymen. Boy would I be pissed if I was being sent though. ;)

[Jack Mehoff]

Only to condemn those cowards? :lol: If they ever in my unit, I and other guys are going to kick their chicken asses. Why? They were nothing but a piece of **** and their cowardice put the new replacements at risk.

How would you like it if they pull you out of a safe place and put you in an infantry platoon because one of them deserted?

[FallenAngel]

.I am not sure about the US reserves, but do you have an option to attend post secondary universities and reserve duty simultaneously? I for example am attending University while I serve; the CF in-turn pays for my schooling. In my honest opinion, University students and the military don’t mix, hence the confusing position I am in. I was in the military before I attended school, yet now I feel more of a student than I do a soldier. The two styles of life are not very complementary. The mentality of a soldier and 'liberal' University student are not exactly harmonious. I try and hold on to both styles of life, but find myself getting tugged in the opposite direction from both sides. I struggle to make the most out both scenarios despite the overwhelming confusion. I love the Canadian forces, but I only foresee myself serving for another three years, for a total of five years. My unit recently asked me to serve on the next rotation to Bosnia, ROTO 15, yet I turned down the offer as my studies are my primary focus. I know this is hard for many of you to understand, but serving as an active reservist and attending school is no easy task. Nonetheless, I am happy with the CF and my role as an infantryman which has exposed me to opportunities and experiences many can never dream of. I don’t blame these guys for wanting to focus on their studies, rather than head off to Iraq. It’s a very compromising and confusing scenario. I guess that is the risk you make when you sign up, and inevitably you have the choice of biting the bullet, or leaving your home and not looking back. I don’t think its fair of many of you to judge these men as you can’t even comprehend the scenario they are faced with. These man completed grueling selection processes and relentless basic training and served with loyalty for many years. Rather than condemn them for what they will not do, one should praise them for what they have done.


Ducimus

Two points:

1. Yes, American reservists go to school at the same time as they are serving. Since most manuevers are on weekends and two weeks (mostly in the summer) this coincides nicely with the usual University school week, which may be as few as two or three days depending on how many units you take. It usually isn't a time problem if you stay on top of your studies and allow for the time you'll be away. There are two Marine reservists that I know of at my University- a PFC and a Corporal- one of which is in my International Relations class this quarter.

2- While I appreciate the effort these men put in during peacetime and sacrificing their weekends and summer vacations, one could say it is all moot. Why? Because they very reason he sacrificed so much is to fulfill his duty- which he has run from instead. The very purpose of a soldier is to go to war. He did not, thus in a theoretical sense negating his status as a soldier and therefore voiding everything he did up to that point. Ex: Training every day during the off season- even going to the first few scrimages in preparation for the up coming season. On opening day....you're a no show. That doesn't make you much of a player does it?

[I love Rachael Leigh Cook]

edit

[martinexsquaddie]

having had the misfortune to serve a tour somewhere shiity but not at all dangerous with someone who really really did'nt want to be there. morale and efficency went up by leaps and bounds when he was finally shipped home. Theres nothing worse than having someone who has his "conscript head on ". I'll take not very good but trying, or insane at least you can work with those if only sticking the nutter on point or checkpoint duty. somebody holding a whispered conversation with his rifle keeps the locals on ther toes :roll:
Unfortunatly sounds like these guys should have been squared away at basic. If I'd have had to go with these guys to iraq I think I'd have chipped in with there bus fair.

[Fox2]

I'm the bigget American patriot around, however if I was called to go to Iraq, I would probably flee to Canada too. It has nothing to do with being a coward. I just don't see any reason to go risk my life for some ****hole like Iraq which I couldn't care less about.

If you don't want to serve, then don't friggin' enlist. You don't want to risk your life for some ****hole? Okay, fine. Don't want to risk your life for some Arabs? Okay, fine. Don't want to put your neck on the line for your fellow soldiers? Then you are a damned coward.


The US should draft all Americans of Arab decent and force them to serve in Iraq. There are hundreds of thousands of them here in Michigan alone, mooching off the country and committing crimes.

I don't really insult people much on this board...But you, sir, are a dumbass. Americans of Arab descent are just as American as Americans of British, German, or African descent. Get off of your high white supremacist horse.

*Edited for clarity.

[weedman]

I really can understand them :(

[Truthsayer]

Time to remove college-benefits to get rid of all these cowards?

[BlackRain]

Boy, you just keep digging yourself a bigger hole and holding yourself up for ridicule.


My unit recently asked me to serve on the next rotation to Bosnia, ROTO 15, yet I turned down the offer as my studies are my primary focus.


You identify who cowards just as you turn down your governments request to deploy. Makes sense.




I don’t think its fair of many of you to judge these men as you can’t even comprehend the scenario they are faced with. These man completed grueling selection processes and relentless basic training and served with loyalty for many years. Rather than condemn them for what they will not do, one should praise them for what they have done


You have to be ****ing kidding right? Alot of us on this forum have "comprehended" it we "because been there done that." And desertion was the furthest from my mind.

Just some advice, if you really feel this way, you should be honest with your unit and resign. You obviously proved that you won't answer the call when your country needs you to deploy.

[big_les]

I'm the bigget American patriot around, however if I was called to go to Iraq, I would probably flee to Canada too. It has nothing to do with being a coward. I just don't see any reason to go risk my life for some ****hole like Iraq which I couldn't care less about.

The US should draft all Americans of Arab decent and force them to serve in Iraq. There are hundreds of thousands of them here in Michigan alone, mooching off the country and committing crimes.

fair enough.

What? How is this 'fair enough'? Introduce conscription for a single ethnic group (containing many hard-working law-abiding Americans) based on the actions of Islamic terrorists, yet refuse to do so yourself? A laughable double-standard, as Fox2 pointed out.

[BOB1]

Fine, but the military has a long memory, and JAG still deals with deserters from vietnam to this day. They abandoned their country when she needed them most...maybe the gov't should ask for its money back.

Out of curiousity didn't Carter pardon all the draft dodgers?

[Bootneck]

EDIT for ducimus: you make it sound like they went through SEAL training or something. Yes we can make a judgement about them. It's called right and wrong. Legal and Illegal. Black and White. Bravery and COWARDICE.

Remember who you're talking to. For him that's all subjective.

[hedgehog]

Swearing allegiance to your country and upholding its laws is one thing, but swearing an oath to a person seems like a stupid idea. That's the same way Hitler got the German army to go wandering through Europe if I remember correctly. He added an oath to him in their allegiance oath so they were literally screwed.

[Beowulf]

Swearing allegiance to your country and upholding its laws is one thing, but swearing an oath to a person seems like a stupid idea. That's the same way Hitler got the German army to go wandering through Europe if I remember correctly. He added an oath to him in their allegiance oath so they were literally screwed.

ah the ever reliable "Hitler" argument....nice. p-)

[Threelions]

Swearing allegiance to your country and upholding its laws is one thing, but swearing an oath to a person seems like a stupid idea. That's the same way Hitler got the German army to go wandering through Europe if I remember correctly. He added an oath to him in their allegiance oath so they were literally screwed.

Well i agree with letting these guys stay in canada. Whatever i dont give a rats ass. as far as swearing oaths to people its pretty common. In canada all members of the CF swear an oath to the Queen, and i imagine the same happens in most commonwealth countries.

Cheers

[Salty Dog]

Punishment for desertion is firing squad under UCMJ. I won't shed any tears if the militaryexecute those cowards.

firing squad...i thought they had switched to lethal injection?

[usa320]

You identify who cowards just as you turn down your governments request to deploy. Makes sense.


Ive been saying Ducimus wont make it in the military since the second he showed up here. He lacks the maturity. You can have all the training and equipment in the world, but if you cant work as a team, if you cant follow orders, or you cant get along with people, then you arent worth ****. Your merely someone dragging down the morale of your squad, and indirectly putting them all in danger.

[usa320]

same. I respect my life, I respect my nation, and I respect my Canadian forces

No...no...no...you got that ****ed up.

Its Nation, Forces, Then life...

[oldsoak]

If this war had been sanctioned by the UN, one wonders what the deserters position would be regards asylum in Canada.

[Abolith]

About the whle "Hitler" argument...It was only the SS that had to swear to hitler. All other (Normal) units did not have to, they only swore to the greater greman empire.


maybe a moot point, but it is a subject I am well versed on ;)

[Skaman]

I'm the bigget American patriot around, however if I was called to go to Iraq, I would probably flee to Canada too. It has nothing to do with being a coward. I just don't see any reason to go risk my life for some ****hole like Iraq which I couldn't care less about.

The US should draft all Americans of Arab decent and force them to serve in Iraq. There are hundreds of thousands of them here in Michigan alone, mooching off the country and committing crimes.

fair enough.

What? How is this 'fair enough'? Introduce conscription for a single ethnic group (containing many hard-working law-abiding Americans) based on the actions of Islamic terrorists, yet refuse to do so yourself? A laughable double-standard, as Fox2 pointed out.


bad sarcasm on my part

[Skaman]

You identify who cowards just as you turn down your governments request to deploy. Makes sense.


Ive been saying Ducimus wont make it in the military since the second he showed up here. He lacks the maturity. You can have all the training and equipment in the world, but if you cant work as a team, if you cant follow orders, or you cant get along with people, then you arent worth ****. Your merely someone dragging down the morale of your squad, and indirectly putting them all in danger.


I think you fail to understand my objective here. I am able and willing to serve my Canadian forces where they send me as I trust that our government will lead us in a direction of justice and honesty. I will serve no matter where my Canadian forces ask me to as it is an obligation I am made to adhere to. If I doubted the credibility of my nation, I would not have joined. Asking if my nation would send me to Iraq is ultimately not valid, as I have full confidence they will not be doing so unless under UN jurisdiction. MY unit proposed to me if I wanted to go on ROTO 15, I decided against it, as it was a choice I was OPEN to. You don’t know the first thing about my status in the CF nor my training qualities or relationship with my company. You have some nerve to condemn my role as extra baggage. Frankly, you don’t know **** and I suggest you keep your judgment to yourself.

[Threelions]

If this war had been sanctioned by the UN, one wonders what the deserters position would be regards asylum in Canada.

Well we wouldnt be discussing this. The whole reason they have deserted their units is that they believe the war to be illegal. If the un had backed the action then the war would be legal and their would be no discussion.

Cheers

[Fox2]

I'll say it once, I'll say it again; I'm so glad that there is no such thing as sovereignty anymore. :roll:

[Skaman]

If this war had been sanctioned by the UN, one wonders what the deserters position would be regards asylum in Canada.

Well we wouldnt be discussing this. The whole reason they have deserted their units is that they believe the war to be illegal. If the un had backed the action then the war would be legal and their would be no discussion.

Cheers



The UN would not have sanctioned the war under the pre-tenses Bush laid out.

[Yard Ape]

The UN would not have sanctioned the war under the pre-tenses Bush laid out.You do not know what would have happened if the Veto powers had not prevented anything from happening.

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=11512&start=32

[Yard Ape]

Asking if my nation would send me to Iraq is ultimately not valid, as I have full confidence they will not be doing so unless under UN jurisdiction. and if Canada does? Don't be naive in your answer this time. Don't assume you will always agree with the cause. Where will you be when the time comes?

[JiJoMacLE45]

I say let Canada keep the fvckers but send them up to the Yukon where they have to freeze their balls off in an ice fishing shack and eventually after so many years of loneliness and isolation they eventually turn to each other for comfort and a soft touch. Some people don't deserve the rights those who came before us afforded them.

I am sick and fvcking tired of this, 'I joined the military for college money but I don't want to fight' excuse. What in the goddamn hell were you thinking when you signed up then. It's the fvcking Army. The Army fights wars. When you were on the range in basic, what did you think the weapons training was for, a friggin merit badge. This pisses me off to no end. AAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Sometimes I think we're doomed.

[Flagg]

I reckon they made a bad choice........

Deploying to Iraq for a year+ with an extremely high likelihood of returning physically whole

Or a LIFE of exile......being "morally right" is cold comfort spending the next 50 odd years knowing you let your mates down by quitting your unit.

[korr]

I see everyone discussing only one of the points: the right of that dude to desert or not. We just forgot one simple, although very important point: his reasons.

College degree and education has absolutely nothing to do with Army. The braveness that most of the testosterone-addicted individuals here have evoked is just brain-wash stupidity made by the U.S. government (as any other "civilized" government) to make its citizens go and fight for their reasons. I use to be very patriotic either, in my country. I use to think my country, its flag and laws and all this **** were above all other things in my life, when I was in the Army - and some long time before. But then, when you start to reason you'll realize this is all bull**** and does not make any sense at all. That's why education is miles away from the entire Armed Forces idea. When you get to read, observe and study the whole picture around you, you see what is really going on. Intelligent men and women do not join any Armed Forces, because their honor resides in the peace, solely. Anything involving widespread (yet organized) violence goes right against the true honor.

I see many shouting "my country", "my nation" and things that sound like the U.S. government gives a **** to anyone who's in the Army (or even to its citizens). Let me tell you something, gentlemen: if the U.S. were really taking any care about you, 9/11 would be just fantasy. Otherwise, how the hell two fully-carried planes could hit two urban crowded building towers without ever being noticed by the CIA and the FBI? I don't think the U.S. gives you a ****! What about Waco, Texas? Why don't you, patriotic men, ask any David Kosher relatives about what they think of the U.S. government "protective policies"?

It is like someone must tap into the U.S. citizen's ears and say "IT'S ALL ABOUT THE OIL, STUPIDS!". There is nothing to do with religion, WMP or the worries of the "amazing-news-reader" George W. Bush. It has been the same reason even before the U.S. stepped into Iraq. Those people are killing each other since the dawn of the time! How could a technological and social advanced country like the U.S. think they could solve out the question as quickly as any other international crisis? By the way, where are (at least one) of the 900 "possible WMP sites" that Donald Rumsfeld has cited before all this situation got messed up?

Oh, you want to be "the braviest of the braves"? Go home and tell your wife and kids you love her, without feeling a sissy because of it. Create something that can really improve your neighborhood living. Otherwise, go to war in Iraq and your family will end up with a pathetic medal and the "condolence" of your country. I'm not saying a soldier should run away whenever he feels up to do so. Receiving an oath to help in an international crisis, where guerilla is shooting civillians (like Somalia, in 1993) is one thing, and it is really honorable. Going out into a war that has nothing - absolutely nothing - to do with human rights and it is purely based on economic interests is something else. Would you risk your life in the battlefield for liberating people from a local guerilla? Surely. Me too. I wouldn't think twice. Now, would let your patriotism blind you for the truth (and if it weren't truth, why would so many countries be against it?) and go to a war only for the money? Don't know about you, but I would certainly not.

This man has the right to look for asylum as a refugee, as many other soldiers who woke up and saw what their country were doing. In my opinion, the U.S. is an amazing country and I have relations with many americans, but now it is going too far with its imperialism. It is time for a deep review on the Uncle Sam "I-want-the-world-as-my-backyard" fever.

[JiJoMacLE45]

That's right I'm a fvcking imperialist, hide your treasures, me and Mickey Dolenz are enroute.

[Skaman]

I say let Canada keep the fvckers but send them up to the Yukon where they have to freeze their balls off in an ice fishing shack and eventually after so many years of loneliness and isolation they eventually turn to each other for comfort and a soft touch. Some people don't deserve the rights those who came before us afforded them.

I am sick and fvcking tired of this, 'I joined the military for college money but I don't want to fight' excuse. What in the goddamn hell were you thinking when you signed up then. It's the fvcking Army. The Army fights wars. When you were on the range in basic, what did you think the weapons training was for, a friggin merit badge. This pisses me off to no end. AAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Sometimes I think we're doomed.



Have you ever been to the Yukon?

[Fox2]

College degree and education has absolutely nothing to do with Army.

Obviously you have no idea of the education benefits the US Military provides to its servicepeople.


Intelligent men and women do not join any Armed Forces, because their honor resides in the peace, solely. Anything involving widespread (yet organized) violence goes right against the true honor.

So, following through on that logic, there are no intelligent people in any Armed Forces. Nice one. Really, that's a commendable statement to make on militaryphotos.net.


I don't think the U.S. gives you a ****! What about Waco, Texas? Why don't you, patriotic men, ask any David Kosher relatives about what they think of the U.S. government "protective policies"?

The same reason we don't ask you about our business. He was a nutcase.


It is like someone must tap into the U.S. citizen's ears and say "IT'S ALL ABOUT THE OIL, STUPIDS!".

Another commendable statement. Hey, guys (US citizens), we're all "stupids."


Oh, you want to be "the braviest of the braves"? Go home and tell your wife and kids you love her, without feeling a sissy because of it.

I personally don't feel "sissy" when I tell my family I love them. Do you have that problem, korr?


Receiving an oath to help in an international crisis, where guerilla is shooting civillians (like Somalia, in 1993) is one thing, and it is really honorable. Going out into a war that has nothing - absolutely nothing - to do with human rights and it is purely based on economic interests is something else. If you think it is all purely based on economics, then you are not very astute.


This man has the right to look for asylum as a refugee, as many other soldiers who woke up and saw what their country were doing. In my opinion, the U.S. is an amazing country and I have relations with many americans, but now it is going too far with its imperialism. It is time for a deep review on the Uncle Sam "I-want-the-world-as-my-backyard" fever.

These people signed a contract, an oath, to do what was asked of them. Their reasons cannot be known, but obviously it was not for honorable reasons. They broke that contract and that oath. Is it really that hard to understand?

[Skaman]

I see everyone discussing only one of the points: the right of that dude to desert or not. We just forgot one simple, although very important point: his reasons.

College degree and education has absolutely nothing to do with Army. The braveness that most of the testosterone-addicted individuals here have evoked is just brain-wash stupidity made by the U.S. government (as any other "civilized" government) to make its citizens go and fight for their reasons. I use to be very patriotic either, in my country. I use to think my country, its flag and laws and all this **** were above all other things in my life, when I was in the Army - and some long time before. But then, when you start to reason you'll realize this is all bull**** and does not make any sense at all. That's why education is miles away from the entire Armed Forces idea. When you get to read, observe and study the whole picture around you, you see what is really going on. Intelligent men and women do not join any Armed Forces, because their honor resides in the peace, solely. Anything involving widespread (yet organized) violence goes right against the true honor.

I see many shouting "my country", "my nation" and things that sound like the U.S. government gives a **** to anyone who's in the Army (or even to its citizens). Let me tell you something, gentlemen: if the U.S. were really taking any care about you, 9/11 would be just fantasy. Otherwise, how the hell two fully-carried planes could hit two urban crowded building towers without ever being noticed by the CIA and the FBI? I don't think the U.S. gives you a ****! What about Waco, Texas? Why don't you, patriotic men, ask any David Kosher relatives about what they think of the U.S. government "protective policies"?

It is like someone must tap into the U.S. citizen's ears and say "IT'S ALL ABOUT THE OIL, STUPIDS!". There is nothing to do with religion, WMP or the worries of the "amazing-news-reader" George W. Bush. It has been the same reason even before the U.S. stepped into Iraq. Those people are killing each other since the dawn of the time! How could a technological and social advanced country like the U.S. think they could solve out the question as quickly as any other international crisis? By the way, where are (at least one) of the 900 "possible WMP sites" that Donald Rumsfeld has cited before all this situation got messed up?

Oh, you want to be "the braviest of the braves"? Go home and tell your wife and kids you love her, without feeling a sissy because of it. Create something that can really improve your neighborhood living. Otherwise, go to war in Iraq and your family will end up with a pathetic medal and the "condolence" of your country. I'm not saying a soldier should run away whenever he feels up to do so. Receiving an oath to help in an international crisis, where guerilla is shooting civillians (like Somalia, in 1993) is one thing, and it is really honorable. Going out into a war that has nothing - absolutely nothing - to do with human rights and it is purely based on economic interests is something else. Would you risk your life in the battlefield for liberating people from a local guerilla? Surely. Me too. I wouldn't think twice. Now, would let your patriotism blind you for the truth (and if it weren't truth, why would so many countries be against it?) and go to a war only for the money? Don't know about you, but I would certainly not.

This man has the right to look for asylum as a refugee, as many other soldiers who woke up and saw what their country were doing. In my opinion, the U.S. is an amazing country and I have relations with many americans, but now it is going too far with its imperialism. It is time for a deep review on the Uncle Sam "I-want-the-world-as-my-backyard" fever.



Well said Korr, I totally agree with almost all of that .

[oldsoak]

Shutup - you've got no honour and no education - Korr has spoken :)

[Fox2]

Shutup - you've got no honour and no education - Korr has spoken :)

Hey, no wonder you guys like Saddam Hussein so much. You share the same ideal of trying to silence those who oppose you! Don't want to debate, huh? Afraid? It's all making sense to me now. ;)

[BlackRain]

Korr - I don't think you are in any position to lecture the USA about anything with the human rights record of Brazil.

There is no such thing as the "right" to desert.

If the war is all about oil, maybe you can explain why oil is more expensive in the USA after the war. I mean if we greedy Americans fought this war for oil then where is the pay off. There is no economic benefit from the war for the average American. Your argument has no validity or truth.

[oldsoak]

- I was being tongue-in-cheek :)
I've met a lot of honorable men and women in the UK, NZ, AUS and US armed forces, quite a few who are better men than I shall ever be. They werent dumb either.

[2Sheds_Jackson]

So by the logic used by some here, the military enlistment contract should contain an "opt-out" clause to be used if the enlistee doesn't want to do his/her duty?

When a conflict arises, or particular duty is required, all military persons should be able to simply excuse themselves based on their interpretation of events?

Of course, it would only be fair to allow the military, in turn, to deny payment of educational benefits, medical benefits & salaries if they didn't like what the enlistee was spending it on. Would you all agree that was fair? Spend 6 years in the military, try to go to college then be told "gosh we changed our minds - we can't agree with your educational goals".

It's truly depressing to see the depth to which some have fallen. To these people, there is no such thing as a valid obligation, no honor, and truly no shame.

[Fox2]

- I was being tongue-in-cheek :)
I've met a lot of honorable men and women in the UK, NZ, AUS and US armed forces, quite a few who are better men than I shall ever be. They werent dumb either.

My apologies. :|

I sorta jumped the gun there, thought you were being serious. :oops:

[Threelions]

Korr - I don't think you are in any position to lecture the USA about anything with the human rights record of Brazil.

There is no such thing as the "right" to desert.

If the war is all about oil, maybe you can explain why oil is more expensive in the USA after the war. I mean if we greedy Americans fought this war for oil then where is the pay off. There is no economic benefit from the war for the average American. Your argument has no validity or truth.

Hmm... The contracts for re-building iraq are substantial enough to be an economic cause and factor in the war. Of coarse there is no economic benefit for average joe american. Would you expect the Goverment to hand out an "iraq is conquered cheque" to everyone in the nation? I dont think Oil was the sole reasone for the war, but i think it played a sizable role in causing the invasion. Shoring up substantial oil reserves is a critical aspect of any states future, especially in the west where we are so relient on it.

Cheers

[California Joe]

I really wanted to go to Iraq and kick ass but I had this damn calculus midterm and there's a kegger at the Delta Tau Chi house tonight so I had to decline the offer.....

[Uncle Sam]

I really wanted to go to Iraq and kick ass but I had this damn calculus midterm and there's a kegger at the Delta Tau Chi house tonight so I had to decline the offer.....

Totally... rofl

[Trigger]

Nice one CJ woot

You can also tell 'em you were unable to deploy because you couldn't get your BDUs on due to the fact that you had a hot blonde co-ed firmly wrapped around each leg...that always works. p-)

[FallenAngel]

Education and military service don't mix? What the hell is this ****? Have you ever been to America??

Education is the cornerstone of the military. Stupid soldiers tend to get killed quite quickly. The military does have it's fair share of idiots, but any organization will. Every service has minimal SAT requirements for its enlistees which is around a 1000 points (out of a possible 1600 for those who don't know). While some may be "average", the military recruits from the top of the pile, not the bottom. The Service Academies are the BEST schools in the nation. The officer corps of the US military are far more educated than your average American and do a harder job for less money. Is there no honor in that?

This war is NOT about human rights? Oh, ****, I guess the mass graves, secret police, putting people into industrial plastic shredders, boiling them in oil, torture and chemical attacks on ordinary Iraqis who didn't share Saddam's religious/ political beliefs was a fabrication! Good God man....you really expect to say those things were not human rights violations? What about their current actions. Kidnapping, threatening and killing noncombatants who are there trying to HELP them?

And it's not about the oil. If it were about the oil, we would be taking it for free or for a drastically reduced price. We are STILL buying it for market value- which has gone UP in the past year. So, as was said, the oil argument is out. As for economics, every time we go to war our economy gets a big boost. Hell, that's what brough us out of the depression!! And it's not like America is getting away with ALL the contracts, there are many coalition and even "nuetral" nations with contracts in Iraq. The US may have the most individually, but I think that's only fair seeing how it was mainly a US effort to dispose Saddam and establish a Democracy in a country ruled for 30 years by a dictator!

As for America being imperialist.....WHAT THE F*CK are you smoking? Having economic interests in other countries is normal. Everyone is doing it- it's called GLOBALIZATION. If you mean militarily then you're an even BIGGER idiot. If we were imperialistic then at least significant parts of France, Germany, Belgium, Holland, Denmark, Italy, Morocco, Lybia, Egypt, Japan, China, Burma, Philipines, New Guinea, the Solomons, Mexico, Panama, Grenada, Cuba, South Korea, Austria, etc. etc. etc. would be OURS! But guess what- they're not! We gave them ALL back!

Colin Powell said it best to the Archbishop of Canterbury who also accused the US of Imperialism:

"Over the years the US has sent many of its great young men and women into great peril to fight for freedom beyond our borders. The only amount of land we have ever asked for is enough to bury those that did not return."

[Threelions]

This war is NOT about human rights? Oh, ****, I guess the mass graves, secret police, putting people into industrial plastic shredders, boiling them in oil, torture and chemical attacks on ordinary Iraqis who didn't share Saddam's religious/ political beliefs was a fabrication! Good God man....you really expect to say those things were not human rights violations? What about their current actions. Kidnapping, threatening and killing noncombatants who are there trying to HELP them?

Let me give you hand down from your high horse. Human rights was never an argument posed as the driving force behind this mess. We were all told that iraq was a threat with its "WMD" . The bush admin has since tried to switch the focus from WMD to the human rights issue. Appearently his shift has worked on some people. Im not saying saddam wasnt brutal and doing horrid things to his own people, but dont tell me that human rights is what prompted the invasion.


And it's not about the oil. If it were about the oil, we would be taking it for free or for a drastically reduced price. We are STILL buying it for market value- which has gone UP in the past year. So, as was said, the oil argument is out. As for economics, every time we go to war our economy gets a big boost. Hell, that's what brough us out of the depression!! And it's not like America is getting away with ALL the contracts, there are many coalition and even "nuetral" nations with contracts in Iraq. The US may have the most individually, but I think that's only fair seeing how it was mainly a US effort to dispose Saddam and establish a Democracy in a country ruled for 30 years by a dictator!
If i was a big conspiracie guy i would say how do you know the states isnt taking the oil for free? But im not so here is my argument. With the saudi's getting a bit funny recently the states needs to establish a firm partner to gain oil from. By invading iraq and replacing saddam with an american friendly government the search for oil has concluded.


As for America being imperialist.....WHAT THE F*CK are you smoking? Having economic interests in other countries is normal. Everyone is doing it- it's called GLOBALIZATION. If you mean militarily then you're an even BIGGER idiot. If we were imperialistic then at least significant parts of France, Germany, Belgium, Holland, Denmark, Italy, Morocco, Lybia, Egypt, Japan, China, Burma, Philipines, New Guinea, the Solomons, Mexico, Panama, Grenada, Cuba, South Korea, Austria, etc. etc. etc. would be OURS! But guess what- they're not! We gave them ALL back!

Colin Powell said it best to the Archbishop of Canterbury who also accused the US of Imperialism:

"Over the years the US has sent many of its great young men and women into great peril to fight for freedom beyond our borders. The only amount of land we have ever asked for is enough to bury those that did not return."


Manifest Destiny my friend. The essence of the imperial american call. Dont forget the spanish american war. America gained puerto rico, phillapines, guam, probably some other crap as well.

Cheers

[NcDeuce]

650 Fuel trucks were brought in from Turkey each day during OIF. Boy, we're racking up that Iraqi oil, aren't we?


Education and military service don't mix

"The Nation that makes a great distinction between its scholars and its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting done by fools."
-LTG Sir William Butler (1838-1910)

[korr]

Fox2 wrote:
Obviously you have no idea of the education benefits the US Military provides to its servicepeople.

That's not what I meant. I understand the U.S. Armed Forces give its people lots of education advantages. One thing is you go to school to make a degree, only. Going to school for learning purposes only, and when I say learning I really mean it, strictly, is something else. Most of these guys go to school to make degrees.

Fox2 wrote:
So, following through on that logic, there are no intelligent people in any Armed Forces. Nice one. Really, that's a commendable statement to make on militaryphotos.net.

This is your distorted interpretation of what I said, not what I said. If it fits for you, fine. I believe it does not for many people.

Fox2 wrote:
The same reason we don't ask you about our business. He was a nutcase.

Another piece-of-art of a statement. When you don't know absolutely nothing of a subject, you don't go and put your nose there like if you were fully aware of the situation. Following the pattern of your answer, it's clear that your opinion about this case has its basements only in what the TV said by that time. Unfortunately, the TV don't show the truth, dear watcher.

Fox2 wrote:
Another commendable statement. Hey, guys (US citizens), we're all "stupids."

I would say another distorted interpretation. If you were the kind of guy that reads an entire text before opening your criticism box, you would surely realize the real meaning of what I said. It is another statement that will fit perfectly on those who feel their wounds hurting, and only them.

Fox2 wrote:
I personally don't feel "sissy" when I tell my family I love them. Do you have that problem, korr?

This is not your business. Anyway, if you want to talk personally with me, then you better take a good look in your ethic routines, because I think they're all bugged. What I do in my life is not, I say again, not your business.

Fox2 wrote:
If you think it is all purely based on economics, then you are not very astute.

If you think not, then I'm sure you're, heh? You must be a child to think otherwise. Under 13, I suppose.

Fox2 wrote:
These people signed a contract, an oath, to do what was asked of them. Their reasons cannot be known, but obviously it was not for honorable reasons. They broke that contract and that oath. Is it really that hard to understand?

I agree with you in some aspects of this statement. I know what responsibility is and the consequences that signing a contract may lead to. But when the bullets start flying around, you better have some very heavy convictions to be fighting and to keep cool during the battle. If these beliefs and convictions do not bring you faith in what you're doing, then something will surey go wrong and you'll fall, make no mistake about that. Now, I'm sorry, but I cannot see how a contract may be more important than a man's mind. This is the only thing you can't jail in. You cant keep a man's body, his freedom of movement and his rights to go and stay, but you don't have a man's soul if you don't put his mind in a cage.

oldsoak wrote:
Shutup - you've got no honour and no education - Korr has spoken

Please, do not misunderstand me. I've been in the Army and I was a sargeant. I'm far from thinking military people has no honor. I didn't say that. What makes a soldier's honor is his responsability and this is honorable too. But to get really honored, wouldn't be like doing something that did not involve killing people?

BlackRain wrote:
Korr - I don't think you are in any position to lecture the USA about anything with the human rights record of Brazil.

There is no such thing as the "right" to desert.

If the war is all about oil, maybe you can explain why oil is more expensive in the USA after the war. I mean if we greedy Americans fought this war for oil then where is the pay off. There is no economic benefit from the war for the average American. Your argument has no validity or truth.

First of all, I don't think you know absolutely nothing about my country, as many american students have shown in a recent school research (73% said Brazillian capital was Buenos Aires).

I agree, there is no such thing as the "right" to desert. There are clear laws and military laws against it. I'm not saying that. The right of his dude to desert lies in his freedom of will and thought, which should be above all things in a contemporary Western society. Unfortunately it is not and he has to make subterfuge to something like asking for asylum.

If you think there are no benefits in a war, I think you should have a look in your history books once more. And if you think the planners above you would do anything in a short-term, then you should have a look at Sun Tzu's "The Art of War". Don't even think about oil prices falling right now. This is fiction. Wait some ten or fifteen years (a pessimistic estimative) and you'll see and understand what I am talking about.

FallenAngel wrote:
Education and military service don't mix? What the hell is this ****? Have you ever been to America??

Education is the cornerstone of the military. Stupid soldiers tend to get killed quite quickly. The military does have it's fair share of idiots, but any organization will. Every service has minimal SAT requirements for its enlistees which is around a 1000 points (out of a possible 1600 for those who don't know). While some may be "average", the military recruits from the top of the pile, not the bottom. The Service Academies are the BEST schools in the nation. The officer corps of the US military are far more educated than your average American and do a harder job for less money. Is there no honor in that?

This war is NOT about human rights? Oh, ****, I guess the mass graves, secret police, putting people into industrial plastic shredders, boiling them in oil, torture and chemical attacks on ordinary Iraqis who didn't share Saddam's religious/ political beliefs was a fabrication! Good God man....you really expect to say those things were not human rights violations? What about their current actions. Kidnapping, threatening and killing noncombatants who are there trying to HELP them?

And it's not about the oil. If it were about the oil, we would be taking it for free or for a drastically reduced price. We are STILL buying it for market value- which has gone UP in the past year. So, as was said, the oil argument is out. As for economics, every time we go to war our economy gets a big boost. Hell, that's what brough us out of the depression!! And it's not like America is getting away with ALL the contracts, there are many coalition and even "nuetral" nations with contracts in Iraq. The US may have the most individually, but I think that's only fair seeing how it was mainly a US effort to dispose Saddam and establish a Democracy in a country ruled for 30 years by a dictator!

As for America being imperialist.....WHAT THE F*CK are you smoking? Having economic interests in other countries is normal. Everyone is doing it- it's called GLOBALIZATION. If you mean militarily then you're an even BIGGER idiot. If we were imperialistic then at least significant parts of France, Germany, Belgium, Holland, Denmark, Italy, Morocco, Lybia, Egypt, Japan, China, Burma, Philipines, New Guinea, the Solomons, Mexico, Panama, Grenada, Cuba, South Korea, Austria, etc. etc. etc. would be OURS! But guess what- they're not! We gave them ALL back!

Colin Powell said it best to the Archbishop of Canterbury who also accused the US of Imperialism:

"Over the years the US has sent many of its great young men and women into great peril to fight for freedom beyond our borders. The only amount of land we have ever asked for is enough to bury those that did not return."
-------------------------

It is clear to see that the TV was the cornerstone of your education, huh? What is all this "what-Saddam-did" about? Have you ever been to Iraq, young man? Did you saw Saddam Hussein doing the things your government told you he did? I bet not. You know why? Because while the old scorpion Saddam was swimming at 4 o'clock in the morning to start his political day, you were in the bathroom, making your hands grow hair. I'm not saying he was a "good person" nor he wasn't. I accept the idea of not knowing, because I'm not his relative and I'm really far from him. Be most careful with the assets being thrown to your head and mind through the TV, young gentleman. You have no idea who's behind all this.

You are basing your economic argumentation in the fact that the oil price did not droped. This is pure stupidity. How do you expect the oil price to fall when there is a war going on there? The war only brings economy boost for you, americans. Most people in the Middle East are surely not enjoying this carnage.

If you don't think your country is imperialist, my friend, than you are the one who is better check its cigarettes again. Here, in Brazil, home of not-so-cult people, even the dumbest man knows the U.S. is imperialist. They may be wrong in they arguments but surely not in their reasoning.

The U.S. only entered WWII when Pearl Harbor got bombed. Otherwise, he would never help no country to get up alive from that hell. Check De Gaulle memories if you want to know how sweet was your country about the whole world in those times. There is nothing to be given back, gentleman. All countries fought pretty good and strong in that war.

What Colin Powell said do not interest me. He's part of the big shark party.

[Fox2]

First off, I would like to apologize for the tone of my previous post to korr. I am just getting a little fed up with this type of rhetoric, and I let myself go.

Now, on with the rebuttal! :D


Fox2 wrote:
Obviously you have no idea of the education benefits the US Military provides to its servicepeople.

That's not what I meant. I understand the U.S. Armed Forces give its people lots of education advantages. One thing is you go to school to make a degree, only. Going to school for learning purposes only, and when I say learning I really mean it, strictly, is something else. Most of these guys go to school to make degrees.

You said that education has nothing to do with the military, but I would say that it does. What people here are saying is that there is a trend to take the educational benefits the military offers, without the person fulfilling their part of the bargain.

Those who support our troops do not see any drastic moral or ethical problems with this war. At most, it ruffled some feathers across the pond and it was ill-timed. I don't think these men had any "significant moral epiphany." If that was really the case, then there would be a lot more going AWOL, which there is not.


Fox2 wrote:
So, following through on that logic, there are no intelligent people in any Armed Forces. Nice one. Really, that's a commendable statement to make on militaryphotos.net.

This is your distorted interpretation of what I said, not what I said. If it fits for you, fine. I believe it does not for many people.

You said and, I quote:


Intelligent men and women do not join any Armed Forces, because their honor resides in the peace, solely.

How else can that be interpreted? It's a pretty clear statement that intelligent people do not join the armed forces. There are many who would dispute that, not just myself.


Fox2 wrote:
The same reason we don't ask you about our business. He was a nutcase.

Another piece-of-art of a statement. When you don't know absolutely nothing of a subject, you don't go and put your nose there like if you were fully aware of the situation. Following the pattern of your answer, it's clear that your opinion about this case has its basements only in what the TV said by that time. Unfortunately, the TV don't show the truth, dear watcher.

I have been around and worked in the Middle East and its people for much of my life. I have talked to the people you supposedly "defend." But obviously, you, being the educated man in Brazil (not Iraq), have seen it all first-hand, am I right? None of your information about this war comes from the media, printed or broadcast, right? You wouldn't make such a statement if that were the case, right? Indeed, media doesn't always represent the truth. So, what station are you tuning into, dear watcher?


Fox2 wrote:
Another commendable statement. Hey, guys (US citizens), we're all "stupids."

I would say another distorted interpretation. If you were the kind of guy that reads an entire text before opening your criticism box, you would surely realize the real meaning of what I said. It is another statement that will fit perfectly on those who feel their wounds hurting, and only them.

I apologize if I flew off the handle, but perhaps you should present your argument next time in a better way, or perhaps with a firmer grasp of English.


Fox2 wrote:
I personally don't feel "sissy" when I tell my family I love them. Do you have that problem, korr?

This is not your business. Anyway, if you want to talk personally with me, then you better take a good look in your ethic routines, because I think they're all bugged. What I do in my life is not, I say again, not your business.

Then tell me, how is it really your business that we


Go home and tell your wife and kids you love her, without feeling a sissy because of it.

Who are you to tell me to do so?


Fox2 wrote:
If you think it is all purely based on economics, then you are not very astute.

If you think not, then I'm sure you're, heh? You must be a child to think otherwise. Under 13, I suppose.

Explain to the people who are over there now, it is all about economics. War is not always about economics, and this war, was not waged purely for economics.


Fox2 wrote:
These people signed a contract, an oath, to do what was asked of them. Their reasons cannot be known, but obviously it was not for honorable reasons. They broke that contract and that oath. Is it really that hard to understand?

I agree with you in some aspects of this statement. I know what responsibility is and the consequences that signing a contract may lead to. But when the bullets start flying around, you better have some very heavy convictions to be fighting and to keep cool during the battle. If these beliefs and convictions do not bring you faith in what you're doing, then something will surey go wrong and you'll fall, make no mistake about that. Now, I'm sorry, but I cannot see how a contract may be more important than a man's mind. This is the only thing you can't jail in. You cant keep a man's body, his freedom of movement and his rights to go and stay, but you don't have a man's soul if you don't put his mind in a cage.

You say you've served your country in the Army, and I respect that. Surely you understand that the most driving force to keep a soldier fighting on is the comraderie of other soldiers? Even in Vietnam, men went back again and again, not because they thought the war was right, but because they didn't want to let down their fellow men. Obviously these men that deserted to Canada do not have that trait.

I apologize if I came off before as harsh, korr, but this mindless rhetoric is getting to me.

Have a good one.

[Maine Finn]

College degree and education has absolutely nothing to do with Army.

Obviously you have no idea of the education benefits the US Military provides to its servicepeople.

Indeed. I'm going to school right now without the Army, but soon I'll be receiving college benefits anyway, which I can put toward other things.



Intelligent men and women do not join any Armed Forces, because their honor resides in the peace, solely. Anything involving widespread (yet organized) violence goes right against the true honor.

So, following through on that logic, there are no intelligent people in any Armed Forces. Nice one. Really, that's a commendable statement to make on militaryphotos.net.

That makes me feel so much better about enlisting. There are intelligent people everywhere in the Armed Forces. We wouldn't be any good if there weren't.



It is like someone must tap into the U.S. citizen's ears and say "IT'S ALL ABOUT THE OIL, STUPIDS!".

Another commendable statement. Hey, guys (US citizens), we're all "stupids."

Wonderful, isn't it? I always knew that there was something wrong with me. Thanks for letting me know what that was.



This man has the right to look for asylum as a refugee, as many other soldiers who woke up and saw what their country were doing. In my opinion, the U.S. is an amazing country and I have relations with many americans, but now it is going too far with its imperialism. It is time for a deep review on the Uncle Sam "I-want-the-world-as-my-backyard" fever.

These people signed a contract, an oath, to do what was asked of them. Their reasons cannot be known, but obviously it was not for honorable reasons. They broke that contract and that oath. Is it really that hard to understand?

If you voluntarily enlist into the military, you are bound by the rules that are in place. You sign on the dotted line and agree to serve your country regardless of where they decide to send you. If you have qualms about being sent to Iraq or wherever, do not enlist. End of story.

[TALOS]

First off, I would like to apologize for the tone of my previous post to korr. I am just getting a little fed up with this type of rhetoric, and I let myself go.

Now, on with the rebuttal! :D


Fox2 wrote:
Obviously you have no idea of the education benefits the US Military provides to its servicepeople.

That's not what I meant. I understand the U.S. Armed Forces give its people lots of education advantages. One thing is you go to school to make a degree, only. Going to school for learning purposes only, and when I say learning I really mean it, strictly, is something else. Most of these guys go to school to make degrees.

You said that education has nothing to do with the military, but I would say that it does. What people here are saying is that there is a trend to take the educational benefits the military offers, without the person fulfilling their part of the bargain.

Those who support our troops do not see any drastic moral or ethical problems with this war. At most, it ruffled some feathers across the pond and it was ill-timed. I don't think these men had any "significant moral epiphany." If that was really the case, then there would be a lot more going AWOL, which there is not.


Fox2 wrote:
So, following through on that logic, there are no intelligent people in any Armed Forces. Nice one. Really, that's a commendable statement to make on militaryphotos.net.

This is your distorted interpretation of what I said, not what I said. If it fits for you, fine. I believe it does not for many people.

You said and, I quote:


Intelligent men and women do not join any Armed Forces, because their honor resides in the peace, solely.

How else can that be interpreted? It's a pretty clear statement that intelligent people do not join the armed forces. There are many who would dispute that, not just myself.


Fox2 wrote:
The same reason we don't ask you about our business. He was a nutcase.

Another piece-of-art of a statement. When you don't know absolutely nothing of a subject, you don't go and put your nose there like if you were fully aware of the situation. Following the pattern of your answer, it's clear that your opinion about this case has its basements only in what the TV said by that time. Unfortunately, the TV don't show the truth, dear watcher.

I have been around and worked in the Middle East and its people for much of my life. I have talked to the people you supposedly "defend." But obviously, you, being the educated man in Brazil (not Iraq), have seen it all first-hand, am I right? None of your information about this war comes from the media, printed or broadcast, right? You wouldn't make such a statement if that were the case, right? Indeed, media doesn't always represent the truth. So, what station are you tuning into, dear watcher?


Fox2 wrote:
Another commendable statement. Hey, guys (US citizens), we're all "stupids."

I would say another distorted interpretation. If you were the kind of guy that reads an entire text before opening your criticism box, you would surely realize the real meaning of what I said. It is another statement that will fit perfectly on those who feel their wounds hurting, and only them.

I apologize if I flew off the handle, but perhaps you should present your argument next time in a better way, or perhaps with a firmer grasp of English.


Fox2 wrote:
I personally don't feel "sissy" when I tell my family I love them. Do you have that problem, korr?

This is not your business. Anyway, if you want to talk personally with me, then you better take a good look in your ethic routines, because I think they're all bugged. What I do in my life is not, I say again, not your business.

Then tell me, how is it really your business that we


Go home and tell your wife and kids you love her, without feeling a sissy because of it.

Who are you to tell me to do so?


Fox2 wrote:
If you think it is all purely based on economics, then you are not very astute.

If you think not, then I'm sure you're, heh? You must be a child to think otherwise. Under 13, I suppose.

Explain to the people who are over there now, it is all about economics. War is not always about economics, and this war, was not waged purely for economics.


Fox2 wrote:
These people signed a contract, an oath, to do what was asked of them. Their reasons cannot be known, but obviously it was not for honorable reasons. They broke that contract and that oath. Is it really that hard to understand?

I agree with you in some aspects of this statement. I know what responsibility is and the consequences that signing a contract may lead to. But when the bullets start flying around, you better have some very heavy convictions to be fighting and to keep cool during the battle. If these beliefs and convictions do not bring you faith in what you're doing, then something will surey go wrong and you'll fall, make no mistake about that. Now, I'm sorry, but I cannot see how a contract may be more important than a man's mind. This is the only thing you can't jail in. You cant keep a man's body, his freedom of movement and his rights to go and stay, but you don't have a man's soul if you don't put his mind in a cage.

You say you've served your country in the Army, and I respect that. Surely you understand that the most driving force to keep a soldier fighting on is the comraderie of other soldiers? Even in Vietnam, men went back again and again, not because they thought the war was right, but because they didn't want to let down their fellow men. Obviously these men that deserted to Canada do not have that trait.

I apologize if I came off before as harsh, korr, but this mindless rhetoric is getting to me.

Have a good one.

woot woot woot on top of things as always fox2

[Tane Angle]

Hey Fox, how's it going? Life treating you ok?

To be short, and to probably repeat what everyone said so far: educated soldiers=good. Uneducated soldiers=bad. Simple as that. Education helps with everything from speaking with locals and understanding a native culture to understanding the mathematics involved in building a bridge for tanks and ox-carts to cross a river with.

I was a soldier for thirty years and now work for a PMC. How can I say this without sounding arrogant or fat-headed or anything...I've spent a lot of time learning, and I didn't do too shabby in school. And I'm a total moron compared to the people I've worked with over the years. That's not modesty, by the way, that's the truth.

By the way, not only are US soldiers statistically more educated than the average American, but they are more educated than the average citizen of any country, if memory serves correctly. Now that's not a dig on other countries, as if we went to Germany or France or even dozens of nations outside of Europe, I am sure that the results would be the same-soldiers being more educated than the average citizen of their country. The main reason is that many militaries will fire their personnel if those personnel do not continue their educations. Other professions do that as well, such as teachers in the US-they must get their Masters within two years of being hired, if I remember right.

Anyways, have a good one, and just some thoughts...

[Fox2]

Hey Fox, how's it going? Life treating you ok?

Doing fine, thanks.

I've been getting kinda mean here, though. ;) All this recent influx of negative threads and posts, coupled with the disappearance of good discussion, has made me a bit irritable.

So, sorry if I am harsh to any of you guys (I'm a nice guy in reality, really, I am. :) ). Some of you probably deserve it though. ;)