WHY did Islam fail disastrously in these countries?

[Silent_Hunter]

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WHY DID ISLAM FAIL disastrously in these countries?

By Ahmed Simon

Islamic armies, at one time, stormed into so many countries, in a wide section of the world. So also, was Islam’s failure and demise in numerous countries, just as dramatically. Why did Islam get thrown out, so decisively and thoroughly from these countries?
First, “The proof in the pudding is in the eating,” so is the saying. When a good and true doctrine like Christianity comes along, it quickly finds its own way and spreads like wild fire. The birth of Christianity was not by force or by the sword; but in the truth and the love of God. Christians did not have to go around forcing non-believers, either to accept or have their heads chopped off their bodies. The Christian power/truth are in the One True God’s words.
Christianity is the answer, which even Allah admitted/confirmed as in the Quran in [Sura 10:95 – “And if though (Muhammad) art in doubt concerning that which we revealed unto thee, then question those (Christians) who read the scripture (Bible)(that was) before thee. Verily the truth from thy Lord hath come unto thee. So be not though of the waverers.”]
Since Allah CLAIMS to have given the Scriptures to the Jews and Christians; why did he not also give Muhammad these Scriptures? Why couldn’t Allah reproduce them for Muhammad – what happened to Allah’s powers? Why disregard Muhammad to go around asking for them by himself from the ordinary Christians? So even Allah’s prophet, Muhammad, was instructed to learn from ordinary Christians. This is a general (blanket) command referring to the whole Quran. Thus, it also confirms that Allah considers the Quran an unsatisfactory and inadequate scripture. So Allah expected Muhammad to find his answers from ordinary Christians. But, Muhammad failed, because the Christians hid the Bible from him, as confirmed in the Quran. This is a shameful admission, is it not, to use knowledge of God from the Bible, for the fabrication of the Quran in such a deceitful/false way?
When the Internet first emerged, there were nobody to point the sword or to force this down people’s throats or have their heads chopped off. The whole world was beating their way to the Americans on their own accord, to acquire the technology and knowledge of the Internet. And it spread fast, like Christianity did.
Thailand was never colonized by any foreign power, and yet Christianity took root and is spreading fast. Christians (4.2 million – ‘Christian Digest of Thailand’, though small in percentage, but huge in numbers, where 4 decades ago, there were less than half a million) Its significant and says a lot for a country like Thailand, because it was not coerced by political, military or any other ways except on its own merits.
The spread of Christianity into countries, in North America, South America, most of Africa, and Europe is academic.
The powerful Roman Emperors initially had their own Roman Gods and religion. So they terrorized and had Christians killed. They even made entertainment of Christians by feeding them to the lions in packed stadiums. All these threats/terrorism/deaths did not stop the wise from realizing the Truth and believed in Christ our Lord and Christianity grew and grew. Eventually, when the mighty Emperor Constantine found that most of his people were already Christians; he himself took interest and finally discarded his religion and believed and converted to Christianity. He then became the Christian pillar of strength, in Evangelizing, spreading the ‘Good News’, proselytizing, enacted laws to comply to Christianity, and sent his mother to build Christian places of worship in Israel – from enemy of Christianity to propagator of Christianity – just in a lifetime.
The question in the title above is obvious, and the answer within the question is also obvious that Islam failed in numerous countries. Unlike non-Muslim powers who basically went to other countries almost exclusively for trade (though in many cases, Christian clergy were brought along, basically for their ships’ crew and army, along their journeys, but also when arrived, some clergy did plant churches in the foreign lands), but Islamic countries spread their wings, almost exclusively for propagating Islam and established forcefully, by imposing the Islamic way of life in all these foreign lands they conquered. When captured, Muslims intentionally began converting other worshipping buildings into mosques or had them destroyed or buried with earth (see below). But, ended up in failed results in numerous countries. Never in this modern human history did one religious power get thrown out from so many countries, so decisively. Why did Islam fail to survive in these countries? In fact, in some of these countries the local people even went overboard, to the other extreme, to drive out the Muslims with a vengeance? Why did these one time Islamic countries despise Islam so much? What is so terrible with Islam? What made ordinary people revolt against Islamic rule and administration in such a thorough manner to completely eliminate Islam and Islamic power from their own countries?
Many Muslims believe that it is blasphemous to even touch a Bible. But when I show the verses in the Quran that Allah recognized the Injil and even asked Muhammad to learn from the Christians. If they say the Bible is changed now, I then ask them ‘what is changed’, ‘why did Allah not foresee this change, if he is a real God’, they get ‘tongue-tight’. So when I question them further on certain logical aspects of the Quran/Allah they give confused and contradictory answers, until they get ‘checkmated’ by themselves, with their own answers. Such is generally, the Islamic knowledge transmitted to most Muslims. The Islamic clergy’s agenda is obvious, to keep Muslims ignorant of Christianity, for fear that Muslims will apostate and give up Islam, if the truth of Christianity is known. In spite of this, millions of Muslims have given up Islam and became Christians, {mostly done secretly for fear of Muslim reprisals as specified in the Quran. So they are mostly invisible to the Muslims and Muslims are not fully aware of the massive extend of Muslims becoming Christians. This is happening all over the world, even in Islamic countries}
Many countries were ruled/governed by Muslim Military and Muslim administrations or were satellite states of Islamic empires at one time, from the 8th century to the 20th century. The conquering Muslim armies quickly subdued non-Muslim territories that were basically ill prepared for these invading forces; non-Muslims were subsequently forcefully subjugated, with Islamic rules and norms. Muslims ruled many countries with an inhuman ‘iron-fist’. Some countries were ruled for a 1,000 years of Islamic rule/Islamic way of life, and yet these people threw out Islam, thereafter. Does it not go to show that generally the Muslims in Islamic countries are held in Islam by force and without their free will? Non-Muslims sprouted up fighting back the Islamic powers for centuries, until they won in triumph and survived. Many Non-Muslims showed history that they would rather die than submit to Islam. These non-Muslims then took measures to redress the Islamic rule of centuries, and in some cases went to the other extreme by forcefully converting Muslims wholesale and/or driving them out forever. What made these countries loathe Islam so much?
In Indonesian History, during the Hindu and Buddhist empires of Srivijaya-Palembang, Sailendra, Majapahit, etc., trade flourished with China and India in a trade so rich, that Indonesia became world famous, being known as the ‘Golden Spice Islands’ and European traders {and later colonizers} flocked in for a share of its wealth. Today, in addition to spices, it is the largest oil and gas exporter, east of the Middle East. Indonesia is also one of the world’s largest exporter of Bauxite, gold, timber, copper, Rubber, Palm oil, tin, guano, iron ore, coal, silver, and a host of raw natural chemicals – mines are everywhere from east to west. Technically, by any reckoning, Indonesia should have continued to be one of the world’s richest countries; and yet since Islam, Indonesia became one of the poorest in the world, with Per capita GDP at US$2,685 {per capita GNP of US$617}. Today, Indonesia is the largest Muslim country in the world, {214 million}, the Islamic sultans and their Islamic administrations were overthrown and with complete independence in 1949 a civil administration and a secular Government was put in place by the Indonesians themselves, which also does not recognize or apply the Islamic Sharia Laws. Secular Indonesia has a long way to prosperity, and Islam is still holding Indonesia back in other ways. What is shocking is the Australian embassy/consulates’ total figures in Indonesia – every working day an average of 380 Indonesians apply for visas. Out of which, only 1,057 were approved for the whole of 2002; mostly for education and 7-14 day visas for business. The seas in between these two countries are one of the most protected areas in the world, to keep Illegals from Indonesia and other Muslim countries, sneaking into Australia. There is no excuse why Indonesians should flee Indonesia with one of the world’s richest natural wealth. But, in the Islamic context, it is obvious to the rational thinking person, the reason why; and this kind of illegal activities are happening the world over from Islamic countries. {In one incident in June 2002, 487 illegal immigrants - Indonesians, Arabs, Iranians, Afghans, Pakistanis, on a overloaded ship, sank 7 Km. off Flores Island and all died in this ill-fated venture, to illegally sneak into Australia in the darkness of the night. Such is the desperation of Muslims to flee Islamic societies. This is an Islamic paradox - Muslims generally claim Islamic rule to be very good, but at the same time flee from these very Islamic administrations and societies for the non-Islamic – shameless hypocrisy. By fleeing Islamic administrations and societies, Muslims themselves prove abundantly Islam is bad}
But, in the Islamic context also, to successfully nurture their next generation in Islam, will continue to keep Islamic societies in this state of regression, desperation and backwardness, leaving them far behind any other, of different faiths.
Around the 40 or so, Muslim majority countries today, almost all do not use the Islamic Sharia law – why is this so {even the very few which apply Sharia, had customized it (changed) to suit that particular Islamic sect, like the Wahabi and Shia Islamic sects}? If the Islamic Sharia laws are as good as the Muslims claim and rave about, then why are Islamic Countries not applying them? Furthermore, why are there four diverse and dissimilar Islamic Schools of thought for the Islamic Sharia Laws, anyway? For example, a minimum of 2 witnesses is required in the Sunni Islamic sect for a rapist to be convicted, whereas in the Shia Islamic sect, a minimum of 4 witnesses is required. No wonder the worldwide Islamic confusion.
In an overwhelming Muslim majority country, like Turkey; the local Muslim Turkish population led by Kemal Ataturk, in 1924, overthrew the Islamic system of Government Administration and way of life; and completely abolished the Islamic caliphate hierarchy system of Turkey; and instead, established a Non-Muslim democratic republic with civil authority and laws for Turkey. The chief Mufti cursed Ataturk and said Allah will bring his fury on him. Kemal Ataturk, calmly pulled the rope and hung him in public and said, “I couldn’t care less”. Then others were hung, too. Thereafter, Islam had no say of any kind in Turkey. The question many would ask is; why did such a country with almost 90% Muslim population, with a tradition of more than 1,200 years of Islam, overthrow and discard an Islamic system of administration and laws for a non-Islamic system? This is, in spite of Turkey being one of the earliest countries, to embrace Islam, and yet Muslims themselves discarded Islam. Even in an Islamic majority (90%) country, Allah/Muhammad’s Islamic administration and Sharia laws, were discarded.
Iran’s greatest days in history were generally before the arrival of Islam and later, during the Shah of Iran’s rule. Iran’s school history books mostly herald the greatness of Iran’s (Persia’s) pre-Islamic periods.
Before Ayatollah Khomeini declared Iran an Islamic republic in late 1979, the Iranian currency was worth/exchanged 75 Rials to US$1. Today, the exchange rate fluctuates at Rials per US dollar - 6,907 (2002), 8,193.9 (2003), 8,614 (2004), 9,040.26 (2005), an obvious continuing decline in the Islamic Republic’s currency; and the bottom is nowhere in sight. But these are the official exchange rates only, and in reality, no overseas banks accept (will even touch) the Rial currency due to its unpredictability and instability. The Black-market rate stands at around 25,000 Rials to a US$1. Iran has a unicameral Islamic governing Assembly or Majles-e-Shura-ye-Eslami, and an estimated 18 to 20 million Iranians fled (emigrated legally and illegally) out of the country, since the establishment of the Islamic republic of Iran.
The Question in non-Muslim lips are, ‘Why do Muslims risk their lives to flee Islamic societies, which they claim is wonderful and also which they created and established themselves’ – ‘Why do Muslims condemn and criticise non-Muslims and their countries/religions and their way of life, and yet, risk their lives to come to these very non-Muslim societies? By this, don’t some Muslims have a shameless and perverted sense of hypocritical logic? And mind you, they come knowing very well that generally, non-Muslims are of the opinion that Islam is absolute evil.
{Most of the statistics/information given below are from the ******* publication of 3/2/06, EU, Britannica Encyclopeadia, historical records and from individual embassies/websites. Muslims will definitely try to discredit some of the figures I quote. But the minor differences inherent from the mentioned sources, are not going to change the overall position, of these countries and the general facts remain}
Philippines – When the Spanish arrived, Philippines was a majority Muslim country, and Islam was well entrenched, and was ruled by various Sultans, from the extreme south, right up to the lower half of the extreme northern Luzon Island {about 5 to 15 degrees north} Villages and towns were governed by Muslim datos {Islamic village/town headmen} Islam, covered 76% of Philippines. The sultan of Sulu was the most famous and powerful of these Sultans. Today, 94% (of the 77 million) of the Philippines are Christian with a small dwindling Muslim population of 4.8% and fast disappearing. In 2002, professional ‘think-tanks’ of the Government, estimated/forecast, that by the year 2020 the Muslim population would dwindle to less than 1%, due to the fast pace of conversions to Christianity. Why did Islam completely fail here?
Israel – {I will not delve in details, but just state my point, because Israel or parts of Israel were captured and recaptured by so many nations – at least 11 times - Some parts of Israel were always changing hands} Israel was the most important place of victory for the Muslims - religion wise. Muhammad, most of his later life, tried very hard to be accepted by the Jews, but each and every time, he was rejected as an Arabic savage. Israel was conquered by the Persians, Arabs and Turks, and held it for hundreds of years, and was fought over many times by others as well. Muslims, who are in Israel today are later Arab immigrants who falsely call themselves Palestinians {The true Palestinians (philistines), before the Roman times, were people who came from around the Aegean Sea (present day Greece and out-lying Islands, like Crete), who were basically Europeans and never had any Arab blood. In other words, the original Palestinians were never Arabs. The Roman conquerors named the whole area of Jordan, the West Bank and Israel as Palestine, to deface any semblance of the Jews/Jewishness. The present day Arabs falsely highjacked the name, Palestine/Palestinians for themselves – Just like the name Allah from Hinduism}. Muslim invaders destroyed and buried entire cities to obliterate any signs of non-Muslim worship, wherever they could. One of the many examples, archeological excavations uncovered, is the town of Acre. The unearthed original town, sitting buried right under the new town above. The Muslim invaders, literally, buried the whole town, with houses, synagogues, churches, chapels, etc, complete with furniture, cooking utensils, household effects, etc, and built their new Islamic town on top of the buried town. This has become a ‘must see’ tourist attraction for the world, the diabolic Islamic inhuman misdeed. Today, 100% of the Jews are non-Muslims. Why did the Jews so thoroughly reject Islam? Why did Islam fail so disastrously among the Jews?
India – The ‘Flowering age’ of the Hindu and Buddhist empires, came to an end slowly until they were completely devoured from the 8th century onwards by Islamic foreign powers. From the 8th century until the 18th century, the Turks, Afghans, Arabs and Mughals {all Muslim invaders} came one after another and held on to large parts of India for a 1,000 years. During this Islamic period, Hindu structures were forcefully destroyed or converted into Mosques and other Islamic structures. The World famous Taj Mahal is one such building, which was originally a Hindu Temple. What they could not destroy or utilize or convert, they buried with earth. Based on manuscripts and records available today of many Hindu structures, some Hindu structures were found to be destroyed and some buried underneath Islamic structures. One Important Hindu temple was the Ram {God} temple in Ayodhia. In 1992 Hindus destroyed the 16th century Babri Mosque situated on top of a hill. Archeological excavations of the ‘hill’ unearthed the buried Hindu Ram Temple beneath the destroyed Babri Mosque, almost completely intact but with mutilated Hindu statues and Hindu artifacts. The documented evidence, archeological reports and photographs produced in the civil High court of Lucknow, proved that the Muslims not only buried the Hindu temple in dirt creating an artificial hill, they also built their mosque on top of it. How vicious and evil can they be? This proved that Muslims, when they take power, they not only wantonly destroy and erase other religious places of worship, but they even bury what they could not destroy.
With the records of other structures available, the Indian Government issued a protective order to protect other mosques from being destroyed in a similar manner to expose the Hindu temples underneath {For more details see ‘the News around the Globe’ dated 15-3-06 in this website. Do you also think any Islamic country in this world will reciprocate and offer such protection for non-Islamic places of worship; and this is in spite of the Hindu temple being buried under the Mosque and many others converted to Mosques in India according to annals of Hindu documents}. The Muslims have no shame to ‘Squat’ on top of other religious buildings.
Among the many buildings, structures, non-Muslim places destroyed and for which records are available today, are the famous Buddhist city, 11 km north of the present city of Varanasi. This sprawling area of Lord Buddha’s one time place of worship/residence was a centre of Buddhist life, learning, meditation, retreat and worship. The Indian Buddhist Maharaja (Emperor) Asoka, built temples, monasteries, eateries, Stupas, Bathing areas, workshops, and so many other buildings, gardens, parks, etc, during his reign from around 265B.C. to 238 B.C. This whole area (about 4Km by 4Km) was wantonly destroyed right down to the ground and left to waste/ruins by the Muslim Mughal Dynasty. Practically nothing was left standing. It was a wanton desecration of non-Muslim religious buildings, prayer tablets, idols and artifacts. Today, with UN sponsorship, the Japanese Govt, Taiwan Buddhist Associations and the Indian government’s Heritage Department, have managed to piece together one Stupa and a few blocks, pillars and floors, so far. The work could take two or three decades according to UN experts, but unfortunately, many of the statues, stones, idols, etc have been wantonly mutilated so badly and some smashed to dust and lost forever. Today, it is a famous Tourist attraction, especially for visiting Buddhists from China, Japan, Taiwan, Singapore, Hong Kong, Korea, etc. Such is the vicious crimes of these Muslims.
In spite of such destructive, evil, disrespectful, wanton desecration, and sacrilegious actions of the Muslims; Hinduism triumphed in India eventually, and Islam failed to convert the majority of Hindus over the 1,000 years the Muslims were in power {i.e. about 70% of ‘British India’ (including Pakistan and Bangla Desh); and present day India (1.12 billion) triumphed with 83.5% Hindus against Islam’s 10.7%, (Christians, Buddhists, others 5.8%). These figures do not include the Hindus of Nepal, and the Buddhists of Bhutan but includes the Buddhists of Ladakh in the north of ‘Jammu And Kashmir’ State}. This is in spite of centuries of Islam and Islamic rule, and yet with such credible Hindu figures. Why did Islam fail so miserably in India? The former Deputy Prime Minister of India said in 1998, “We could not accept an evil hypothesis, which degrades human life to animal status. We treasure human life.”
{Note: Many people think of Kashmir as one state of India – Even the media say so. There is no such ‘state of Kashmir’ in existence, in the past or present. From the British period, 100s of years ago, this state was officially and always known as ‘Jammu and Kashmir’ State, ruled by a Maharaja (Emperor) with British protection, and was separately administered from ‘British India’. In 1947 the Maharaja was shocked when independent Pakistan invaded it and that prompted the Maharaja to take his state officially to join secular India. Today, Pakistan holds 1/3rd and India holds 2/3rd of Jammu and Kashmir State. The main town of Kashmir, Srinagar, was used by the British and still used by the present Indian state and central Governments only during the 6 months of summer and autumn (summer capital). Before 1990, with 600,000 Indian and 70,000 foreign tourists a year, the locals benefited from tourism, but with the Islamic militancy, no tourist come to the Kashmir valley part and the locals, (mainly Muslims) are driven to near starvation diets. In the winter and spring, (Srinagar is completely cut off from the rest of India because of the Himalayan snow except for two road tunnels), the state and Central administration was and still is in Jammu city for 6 months (winter capital), effectively making Srinagar, impractical, with the Himalayan weather. Jammu and Kashmir State is basically made up of 3 regions. The Buddhists, mainly inhabit Ladakh in the north. The south/west is the Kashmir valley, and mainly Muslims and the south/east is the Jammu region, centred in Jammu city, mainly Hindus. There is no single religion, which makes up the majority in the State of ‘Jammu and Kashmir’. What Pakistan is claiming is to carve out the Muslim part (Kashmir valley) out of the state of Jammu and Kashmir. This cautions the outside world that if any part of any country is with a majority Muslim population, the Muslims will start demanding that territory carved out of the country, solely for them.}

[Silent_Hunter]

Spain and Portugal – In 711 A.D. the Muslim Moors of North Africa, with a 12,000 strong army, invaded and captured Southern Spain. The ill prepared 3,000 Spanish troops under King Roderick were outnumbered and was easily defeated {Spanish troops who fell to the ground with injuries, were immediately beheaded, as they lay wounded on the ground}. In 714 the Muslim Moors attacked Leon and Galicia in the north and took it. By 715 A.D. the whole of the Iberian Peninsula {including Portugal} was taken over in a brutal and bloody annexation. Muslim administration was strictly imposed. Christian churches were converted to mosques and the Muslims began their Islamisation of Spain and Portugal, and went full-scale trying to convert the resistant Christians {Just like earlier in Syria, Churches were similarly converted to mosques and the famous Church of St. John the Baptist was converted by Caliph Al-Walid to the important Omayyad Mosque of Damascus, as it is called today – The Muslims have no shame to steal and use Christian churches as their mosques}. Various Caliphs of the Muslim Omayyad Dynasty ruled Islamic Spain and Portugal with an Islamic ‘iron fist’.
In 1027 to 1031, the Muslim Omayyad Dynasty slowly came to an end from internal in-fighting and the periodic Christian up-risings, weakening their rule. In 1031, the Arab Muslims from Morocco attacked the moors in southern Spain (Cordova) and defeated the remnants of the Omayyad splinter group and held only the southern enclave of Cordova till the 15 century, when they too were completely driven out of Spain {It was said that “Wine, women and song brought the death of Islam in Spain”}. So, from 711 A.D. to 1492, {for 781 years, between the Muslims stepping in and stepping out}, when the last Muslims, who held the Southern Cordova region, were driven out of Spain completely at last, Islam completely failed to survive.
The Britannica Encyclopeadia gave the official religious affiliations of Spain in 1960, as Roman Catholic – 31,200,000; Protestants – 43,000; Jewish – 5,000 {no mention of any Muslims in Spain}. But since the EU rules on asylum seekers, some Muslims have been let in and it stands at less than 0.4% and the Catholic Digest of Spain (2003) gave an average annual conversion rate of Muslims to Catholism at 10,630 {almost a 1,000 a month}
In Portugal the religious affiliation stated for 1990 is Roman Catholic 99.4% and others 0.6% {this ‘others’ could be entirely made up of Protestants} out of a total population of over 11 million. {As for the whole of the western European countries today, France at 5.98% is with Muslim residents; Germany at 2.89%; Britain at 1.48%; Italy at 1.37% are Muslims and the rest are, Switzerland at 0.23%, Belgium at 0.37%, Netherlands 0.87%, Denmark at 0.16%, Sweden at 0.28%, Finland 0.01% and Norway at 0.05%. The point I am making here is that with so few Muslims around; and yet they are responsible for so much destabilization, terrorism and dissatisfaction caused to the Majority population – think about it. Is it worth it?}. But since 9/11, 7/7, and the Madrid suicide bombings, this inflow of Muslims have been almost completely stopped by all EU countries, including the new EU members. In other words, the Muslim population in EU can only dwindle downwards with conversions. So the future could look brighter without many Muslims around.
{I have to admit, that on the flip side, during this Omayyad period of power, the knowledge the Arabs gained from their previous Indian empire, encompassing the Middle East, of the Candragupta Maharaja/s of India, who initially brought to the Middle East - Philosophy, Medicine, Mathematics, Astronomy, Literature, the Indian numerals [Europeans, initially called the Indian numerals, Arab numerals, because the Europeans thought they were the inventions of the Arabs – see encyclopeadia], the Arts, science, etc. In addition to the stimulus the Arabs derived from the Hellenic contributions, Islamic culture was greatly enlightened by contacts with India. Indians, who introduced astronomical work “Sindhind” to the Arabs, also taught them symbols and numbers (present numbers I to 9 and Zero) and higher Mathematics such as Algebra, and the decimal system – Hindu knowledge had evolved from 1,500 B.C. – See the article ‘the invention of Islam’. This had a far-reaching impact on the Europeans as a whole. So as transmitters of knowledge, at least some good did come to Europe from this nearly eight centuries of Islamic occupation of Spain and Portugal.}
Bulgaria – By the end of the 14th century, the Muslim Turks of the Ottoman Empire took over Bulgaria. ‘Bulgarian Horrors’ – This notorious suppression of the Bulgarian up-rising for independence, was brutally put down by the Turks in 1876 and came to be known as the ‘Bulgarian Horrors’ where hundreds of thousands of Bulgarians were slaughtered. When Bulgarians were injured and fell to the ground, they were slaughtered like chickens. In 1908, the Bulgarians at last took control of Bulgaria. Today, Bulgaria with a total population of 7.45 million (2,005 est.) with some of the Turkish race, left behind, numbering about 9.4% and out of which less than 0.1% are actual practicing Muslims. This is because the half-century of communism in Bulgaria, made sure that no religion was practiced, mosques, churches, etc were converted into warehouses, workshops, etc and Islam soon faded away from memory. The Muslim Turks (Ottoman) controlled Bulgaria from about 1392 to 1908 {516 years}. For these 516 years, the result is a fast-dwindled Muslim population. Why is this so?
Romania – {aka Rumania} – Romania was part of the Ottoman Empire from about 1398 to 1878. Even during the Communist occupation, Christianity was so well entrenched that the Church was given due recognition. After about 480 years of Muslim occupation, the official statistics do not account for any Muslim statistics, as the population is almost entirely Christian (100%). Why did Islam completely fail and disappear in Romania?

Yugoslavia – {Slovenia, Croatia, Bosnia Herzegovina, Serbia, Montenegro and Macedonia - these are all independent countries now, which belonged to the former Yugoslavia at one time}. Some of these states were also part of the Ottoman Empire. Serbia fell to the Ottoman Empire in 1459 until a major part was taken back in 1557 and was ruled by the Serbian patriarchate, until the 1739 when the Turks were completely pushed out of Serbia. Montenegro, was frequently attacked by the Ottoman Empire’s forces, {but was never successful, each time, as it is said that the smaller number of people of Montenegro defended their territory against the mighty forces of the Ottoman Empire by carrying and applying pork lard on themselves and on their weapons against the larger Turkish forces – but I cannot verify this as a historical fact, but is commonly told for generations}. Bosnia Herzegovina was part of the Ottoman Empire from around 1463 to 1908. Macedonia was also part of the Ottoman Empire. The highest concentration of Muslims today are in Bosnia Herzegovina at 37% out of a total population of 4.025 million {but these Bulgarian speaking Muslims do not call themselves ‘Muslims’ but only as ‘Bosniaks’ and generally do not practice Islam – they are more ‘Europeanized’}, Serbia at less than 1.6% and Macedonia at 2.6% Muslims, shows the failure evidently. For the rest of the countries (Slovenia, Croatia, Montenegro) there are no Muslims significant enough, to publish their figures. Here too it is clear that Islam failed.
Hungary – Around the 1550s the Turks managed to take most of Hungary (Central and Southern regions) and incorporated it into the Ottoman Empire. From 1683-1699 the Muslims were slowly driven out of Hungary, After the Muslims occupied Hungary for nearly 150 years; there is no official statistics of any Muslim here {the ‘slate’ is clean}. Islam completely failed in Hungary too.
Lebanon – I included Lebanon, though the Muslim population is at present 59.2% and the Christian population at 40%; Islam is considered to have failed here. After the Byzantine period from the 1453 onwards, Lebanon was ruled by Muslims starting with the Ottoman empire, (except for a brief period of European colonizers). So for Hundreds of years Islam reigned supreme in Lebanon. The total population of 4.3 million in the 1970s was reduced to the present 3.8 million, with mainly an exodus of Christians emigrating to the West, due to the long drawn out civil war for two decades. So in actual fact, if these 500 thousand were taken into account, Islam has failed here too. The influx of the 395,000 Palestian refugees into Lebanon, driven out of Jordan by King Hussein, added to this imbalance, so in actual fact, nearly 900 thousand Lebanese have left the country, most of them, non-Muslims. So you can now see, that Islam failed here too.
Greece – Greece was part of the Ottoman Empire from 1453 to 1829. Capturing Greece was a “pearl’ for the Ottoman Empire, because of its advanced culture, philosophy, literature, poetry, science, medicine, sports, etc. After 1929 independent Greece became stronger and recaptured many out-lying Islands; mostly Greek-speaking Islands and a few Turkish-speaking Islands from Turkey within 1 to 5 Km. from the Turkish mainland. Although Greece was under the control of the Muslims for 374 years, the present Muslim population of 1.3% says, Islam failed miserably in Greece too.
Thailand – Around 1750 A.D., about 19 provinces south of Bangkok were with a majority Muslim population (estimates rage anywhere from 8 to 14 million Muslims lived in these 19 provinces). There were powerful Islamic Sultanates who ruled in these territories at one time. The 2,000 census, show there are only 3 provinces tucked away in the extreme southern corner, with a Muslim Majority, in a country of 71.9 million, with 90.6% Buddhists in the total 76 provinces of Thailand. The official Muslim population of the whole of Thailand in 2,000 was 3.8 million and fading fast (less than the number of the growing (4.2 m) Christian population in 2,000). Projected figures show that even in these 3 provinces, Muslims will become a minority around 2015 at the going rate. Why is Islam failing so fast in Thailand?
Other countries or part of the country, which Islamic powers conquered and failed, were parts of France, Italy, etc, and were driven out. {Muslims who are residents/citizens in these countries today are those who were allowed in, in the last few decades, as asylum seekers, Illegal immigrants, etc. under EU rules}
The main reason for Islam’s failure in the above-mentioned countries; could surely be in their Quran. The Quran is a book of an imperfect scripture (with errors, contradictions, irrational assumptions, historical inaccuracies and absurdities, with only 114 chapters against the Bible’s 1,189 chapters). The chapters of the Quran are not arranged in importance, continuity, holiness, biography, chronology, significance or sequence of any sort, but are arranged simply by length - the longest chapter, followed by the next longest chapter and the last chapter with just 6 lines. Thus, the first half of the Quran accounts for only 20 chapters, and the second half accounts for 94 chapters (of total 114 chapters). There is no correlation between chapters. Verses are disorderly arranged and jumbled up in unrelated subjects/topics. The majority of the prophets mentioned in the Bible are not in the Quran (simply missing). The Total number of verses in a Quran can vary. In other words, all Qurans are not exactly the same. That is why different Islamic sects give different total number of Sura (verses), from 6,241 to 6,666 verses (Islamic websites quote different figures too – all these Quran figures could be correct, based on their own Islamic sect’s Quran).
Christians will be horrified to know that there is no prophecy, no chronology, no geography, no biography of anybody (not even Muhammad), no ministry, no history, no proverbs, no parables, no miracles, no psalms, no sequence of any sort in the Quran; and generally is just do’s and don’t, more or less similar to an instruction manual of a vacuum cleaner; and with punitive punishments, reprisals and rewards specified. In stark contrast, the Bible is the only religious scripture in this entire world (which contains everything the Quran does not have, as mentioned above) and which begins chronologically with the creation of the universe and the human race; and ends with the universe and the human race. No other religious Scripture, anywhere in this world, can categorically state such a Complete Testimony of the universe and the human race and that too in an accurate chronological setting from the beginning to the end. Therefore, in my opinion, the tremendous inadequacies of the Quran could possibly be one reason for their failure.
Another reason could be in the inhuman Quranic Doctrine. The Quran demands Muslims to kill non-Muslims “wherever you find them”. “Smite non-Muslims’ neck and fingers before killing them” (just for being non-believers of Islam, irrespective of race, language, creed, colour, and weather man, woman or child), “deceive and plot against non-Muslims”, “slay infidels (kill non-Muslims)”, “do not take orders from non-Muslims”, “Muslims are not to be friends of non-Muslims”; the list is long and could be found in the Article, “Is Islam Practical?” The Quran cannot possibly be from a ‘Real True God’ to any rationally thinking person; but surely a doctrine inspired by Satan?
Finally, is it not evident that roughly, more than a billion people around this world, having already experienced Islam/Allah/Muhammad, fought against it and discarded it for a good reason? Islam’s demise is not a question of ‘if’ but ‘when’, as the process of its demise started with the advent of the media, IT, etc, and got speeded up exponentially, after 9/11. (Also see article in this website, “Islam in fast Demise”)

Dear readers, please E-Mail this article to as many people, as you can. Thank You.

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[Friendly Fire]

The answer given in as much imperfect as the Quran. One could argue about how a religion doesn't "fail". Another about how Islam replaced steadily christianity in some of these parts of the world, brought by the trail of the ottoman armies.

And it surely needs far more time and litterature than these 8 pages of transcription.

But one thing is for sure. Islam by failing to alter some of it's principles fell short to tackle on the new humanist doxas...this has to do with the conflicting logic of Islam.
Christianity kept reacting to new doctrines (like marxism or neo-lib or fascism) it kept modifying it's message in order to adapt (even thoug it lost many people in the process) or it's form (just look at the number of different "churches") and became far more engaged in proselyltism. Not to mention Christianity (like Islam) moved under the western umbrella of expansion.

[VanZorich]

"...but these Bulgarian speaking Muslims do not call themselves ‘Muslims’ but only as ‘Bosniaks’ ..."



I would like to see one of those : "Bulgarian speaking Bosniak Muslims" .

Where did you get this from ?

[Saranof]

"When a good and true doctrine like Christianity comes along, it quickly finds its own way and spreads like wild fire. The birth of Christianity was not by force or by the sword; but in the truth and the love of God."


This is one of the most retarded things I've ever read. Ever.

[Soldier_4_Christ]

Print This Article (http://www.islamreview.com/articles/whydidislamfailprint.htm)

WHY DID ISLAM FAIL disastrously in these countries?

By Ahmed Simon

Islamic armies, at one time, stormed into so many countries, in a wide section of the world. So also, was Islam’s failure and demise in numerous countries, just as dramatically. Why did Islam get thrown out, so decisively and thoroughly from these countries?
First, “The proof in the pudding is in the eating,” so is the saying. When a good and true doctrine like Christianity comes along, it quickly finds its own way and spreads like wild fire. The birth of Christianity was not by force or by the sword; but in the truth and the love of God. Christians did not have to go around forcing non-believers, either to accept or have their heads chopped off their bodies. The Christian power/truth are in the One True God’s words.
Christianity is the answer, which even Allah admitted/confirmed as in the Quran in [Sura 10:95 – “And if though (Muhammad) art in doubt concerning that which we revealed unto thee, then question those (Christians) who read the scripture (Bible)(that was) before thee. Verily the truth from thy Lord hath come unto thee. So be not though of the waverers.”]
Since Allah CLAIMS to have given the Scriptures to the Jews and Christians; why did he not also give Muhammad these Scriptures? Why couldn’t Allah reproduce them for Muhammad – what happened to Allah’s powers? Why disregard Muhammad to go around asking for them by himself from the ordinary Christians? So even Allah’s prophet, Muhammad, was instructed to learn from ordinary Christians. This is a general (blanket) command referring to the whole Quran. Thus, it also confirms that Allah considers the Quran an unsatisfactory and inadequate scripture. So Allah expected Muhammad to find his answers from ordinary Christians. But, Muhammad failed, because the Christians hid the Bible from him, as confirmed in the Quran. This is a shameful admission, is it not, to use knowledge of God from the Bible, for the fabrication of the Quran in such a deceitful/false way?




You are correct for Jesus said to the Apostles when celebrating the first Mass/liturgy "This is the new and EVERLASTING covenant" and before his assension to go forth and preach the gospel and to baptise in the name of The Father and of The Son and of The Holy Spirit (The Trinity which the muslims deny).

If "another prophet" was to come then 1) Jesus would have spoken about him 2) That would have negated his "new and everlasting covenant" with a "new gospel".

[Lancero]

:cantbeli:

Portugal and Spain didn't even existed at the time the mours invaded...
And Islam did survived on the Iberian Peninsula after the reconquista.

[Labud]

Yugoslavia – {Slovenia, Croatia, Bosnia Herzegovina, Serbia, Montenegro and Macedonia - these are all independent countries now, which belonged to the former Yugoslavia at one time}. Some of these states were also part of the Ottoman Empire. Serbia fell to the Ottoman Empire in 1459 until a major part was taken back in 1557 and was ruled by the Serbian patriarchate, until the 1739 when the Turks were completely pushed out of Serbia. Montenegro, was frequently attacked by the Ottoman Empire’s forces, {but was never successful, each time, as it is said that the smaller number of people of Montenegro defended their territory against the mighty forces of the Ottoman Empire by carrying and applying pork lard on themselves and on their weapons against the larger Turkish forces – but I cannot verify this as a historical fact, but is commonly told for generations}. Bosnia Herzegovina was part of the Ottoman Empire from around 1463 to 1908. Macedonia was also part of the Ottoman Empire. The highest concentration of Muslims today are in Bosnia Herzegovina at 37% out of a total population of 4.025 million {but these Bulgarian speaking Muslims do not call themselves ‘Muslims’ but only as ‘Bosniaks’ and generally do not practice Islam – they are more ‘Europeanized’}, Serbia at less than 1.6% and Macedonia at 2.6% Muslims, shows the failure evidently. For the rest of the countries (Slovenia, Croatia, Montenegro) there are no Muslims significant enough, to publish their figures. Here too it is clear that Islam failed.


There are some mistakes:
1.Serbia was liberated from Turks during its 2 Uprisings in period 1804-1815, not 1739. The last Serbian territories which were under Ottoman Empire (Kosovo, Metohija and Vardarian Macedonia), known as Old Serbia were liberated in the First Balkan war 1912.
2. Muslims in Bosina and Herzegovina are not Bulgarian speaking, they are Serbian speaking. They call themselfs Bosniaks because they claim to rule over whole Bosnia and Herzegovina. But they can't deny that their grand...grandfathers was Serbs that became muselims.

[caridon]

can a mod please eradicate this peace of inacurate, POS
please.

/C

[Ergnkon]

"When a good and true doctrine like Christianity comes along, it quickly finds its own way and spreads like wild fire. The birth of Christianity was not by force or by the sword; but in the truth and the love of God."


This is one of the most retarded things I've ever read. Ever.

Wow! really, weird some people take this kind of stuff serious.

OK Islam spread by force, but how can some deniy the brutal/bloody past of Christianity??

Christianity was the first creed in history to exterminate its adversaries in the name of love

1000 Years of Carnage & Barbarity in the name of Christ

http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/1000years.htm

Missionaries or Murderers?
– The Christianising of Europe

http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/murderers.htm

http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/cruelty.html

[ex Strathcona]

"When a good and true doctrine like Christianity comes along, it quickly finds its own way and spreads like wild fire. The birth of Christianity was not by force or by the sword; but in the truth and the love of God."


This is one of the most retarded things I've ever read. Ever.

agreed, my internal BS meter flashed into the red.

[Soldier_4_Christ]

Wow! really, weird some people take this kind of stuff serious.

OK Islam spread by force, but how can some deniy the brutal/bloody past of Christianity??

Christianity was the first creed in history to exterminate its adversaries in the name of love

1000 Years of Carnage & Barbarity in the name of Christ

http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/1000years.htm

Missionaries or Murderers?
– The Christianising of Europe

http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/murderers.htm

http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/cruelty.html




WOW, pretty hateful stuff above........ Read below


Is Jesus truly God?

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What Canon Lawyers Are and Aren’t
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Who Can Be Saved?
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Robert Bellarmine
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IS Jesus God? Early Christian writers didn’t seem to have any doubts. Just look at what they wrote:

Ignatius of Antioch



"Ignatius, also called Theophorus, to the Church at Ephesus in Asia . . . predestined from eternity for a glory that is lasting and unchanging, united and chosen through true suffering by the will of the Father in Jesus Christ our God (Epistle to the Ephesians 1 [A.D. 110]).



Ignatius of Antioch



"For our God, Jesus Christ, was conceived by Mary in accord with God’s plan: of the seed of David, it is true, but also of the Holy Spirit (Epistle to the Ephesians 18:2).



Ignatius of Antioch



". . . to the Church beloved and enlightened after the love of Jesus Christ, our God, by the will of him that has willed everything which is (Epistle to the Romans 1 [A.D. 110]).



Aristides



"[Christians] are they who, above every people of the Earth, have found the truth, for they acknowledge God, the creator and maker of all things, in the only-begotten Son and in the Holy Spirit" (Apology 16 [A.D. 140]).



Tatian



"We are not playing the fool, you Greeks, nor do we talk nonsense, when we report that God was born in the form of a man" (Address to the Greeks 21 [A.D. 170]).



Melito



"It is no way necessary in dealing with persons of intelligence to adduce the actions of Christ after his baptism as proof that his soul and his body, his human nature, were like ours, real and not phantasmal. The activities of Christ after his baptism, and especially his miracles, gave indication and assurance to the world of the deity hidden in his flesh. Being God and likewise perfect man, he gave positive indications of his two natures: of his deity, by the miracles during the three years following after his baptism; of his humanity, in the thirty years which came before his baptism, during which, by reason of his condition according to the flesh, he concealed the signs of his deity, although he was the true God existing before the ages" (Fragment in Anastasius of Sinai’s, The Guide 13 [A.D. 177]).



Irenaeus



"For the Church, although dispersed throughout the whole world even to the ends of the Earth, has received from the apostles and from their disciples the faith in one God, Father Almighty, the creator of heaven and Earth and sea and all that is in them; and in one Jesus Christ, the Son of God, who became flesh for our salvation; and in the Holy Spirit, who announced through the prophets the dispensations and the comings, and the birth from a Virgin, and the passion, and the Resurrection from the dead, and the bodily Ascension into heaven of the beloved Christ Jesus our Lord, and his coming from heaven in the glory of the Father to re-establish all things; and the raising up again of all flesh of all humanity, in order that to Jesus Christ our Lord and God and Savior and King, in accord with the approval of the invisible Father, every knee shall bend of those in heaven and on Earth and under the earth . . " (Against Heresies 1:10:1 [A.D. 180]).



Irenaeus



"Nevertheless, what cannot be said of anyone else who ever lived, that he is himself in his own right God and Lord . . . may be seen by all who have attained to even a small portion of the truth" (Against Heresies 3:19:1).



Tertullian



"God alone is without sin. The only man who is without sin is Christ; for Christ is also God" (The Soul 41:3 [A.D. 208]).



Tertullian



"The origins of both his substances display him as man and as God: from the one, born, and from the other, not born.." (The Flesh of Christ 5:6-7 [A.D. 208]).



Tertullian



"That there are two Gods and two Lords, however, is a statement which we will never allow to issue from our mouth; not as if the Father and the Son were not God, nor the Spirit God, and each of them God; but formerly two were spoken of as Gods and two as Lords, so that when Christ would come, he might both be acknowledged as God and be called Lord, because he is the Son of him who is both God and Lord" (Against Praxeas 13:6 [A.D. 213]).



Hippolytus



"Only [God’s] Word is from himself and is therefore also God, becoming the substance of God" (Philoso-phoumena 10:33 [A.D. 222]).



Hippolytus of Rome



"For Christ is the God over all, who has arranged to wash away sin from mankind, rendering the old man new" (Philosophoumena 10:34).



Clement of Alexandria



"The Word, then, the Christ, is the cause both of our ancient beginning, for he was in God, and of our well-being. And now this same Word has appeared as man. He alone is both God and man, and the source of all our good things" (Exhortation to the Greeks 1:7:1 [ante A.D. 200]).



Clement of Alexandria



"Despised as to appearance but in reality adored, [Jesus is] the Expiator, the Savior, the Soother, the Divine Word, he that is quite evidently true God, he that is put on a level with the Lord of the universe because he was his Son." (Exhortation to the Greeks 10:110:1).



Origen



"Although he was God, he took flesh; and having been made man, he remained what he was, God" (The Fundamental Doctrines 1:Preface:4 [A.D. 220-230]).



Origen



"While we have been sketching the proof of the divinity of Jesus, we have made use of the prophetic statements concerning him, and have at the same time demonstrated that the writings which prophesied about him are divinely inspired" (The Fundamental Doctrines 4:1:6).



Cyprian



"One who denies that Christ is God cannot become his temple [of the Holy Spirit] . . . " (Letter to Jubaianus 73:12 [A.D. 255])



Arnobius



"'Well, then,' some raging, angry, and excited man will say, 'Is that Christ your God?' 'God indeed,' we shall answer, 'and God of the hidden powers.'" (Against the Pagans 1:42 [A.D. 305]).



Lactantius


"He was made both Son of God in the spirit and Son of man in the flesh--that is, both God and man" (The Divine Institutions 4:13:5 [A.D. 310]).

[Lazy Lob]

Spain was never fully conquered. When the moors were sent on their first tax collection run (just 3 years after the battle of Guadalete) to the Astur tribal area in the Cantabrian mountains they were given a severe whipping and sent back without a single "peseta". That was the battle of Covadonga to be precise. It was the beginning of the long “reconquista”. Many other areas were never fully taken over and there was never really such a thing as “muslim Spain”. Small Christian kingdoms peppered the peninsula and fought each other as well as the muslims depending on the alliances of the day.

[Dasein]

If anything, Islam is the Hegelian synthesis of Judaism and Christianity, combining the legalistic, public religion of Judaism with the private, personal relationship with God from Christianity into a single religion that encompases both the individual and society. Not surprisingly, Islam has been and continues to be one of the fastest spreading religions, and in Hegelian fashion, could be seen as the end of monotheistic religion. History thus far bears this out as we have not seen the development of a new monotheistic tradition emerge from the Judeo-Christo-Islamic line in nearly 1400 years.

[Firetxmi]

"When a good and true doctrine like Christianity comes along, it quickly finds its own way and spreads like wild fire. The birth of Christianity was not by force or by the sword; but in the truth and the love of God."


This is one of the most retarded things I've ever read. Ever.

Thanks for beating me to it. I stopped reading at that sentence.

[BMF_EOD]

2 words-

Pillow Pants

[ren0312]

"When a good and true doctrine like Christianity comes along, it quickly finds its own way and spreads like wild fire. The birth of Christianity was not by force or by the sword; but in the truth and the love of God."


This is one of the most retarded things I've ever read. Ever.

When you look at the process of Christianization in Northern Europe, i.e., Ireland, Scotland, Wales, Scandinavia, Germania, and the other parts of Europe located east of Russia and the Ukraine, but north of the Rhine(Rhenus) and the Danube(Donau), it seemed to be relatively peacefull, although it was not entirely fair and square either, but the in those times of the Dark Ages, between the fall of the Western Roman Empire and the Middle Ages, there was no such thing as fair and square either, or the Bill of Rights, or the Treaty of Westphalia, anway, as far St. Patrick's Christianization of Ireland is concerned, it also seemed to be fairly benign, we are talking about the events of that time, so do not bring up the Inquisition and the Reformation, unlike the forced conversion to Christianity of some of the European colonies, overall the Christianization of Europe seemed to be a fairly benign process, if you use the standards of that time, not Council of Europe, Human Rights Watch, or Amnesty International standards, just like Julius Caesar was a benign ruler when compared to the likes of say, Sulla.

[foxtrot023]

Spain was never fully conquered. When the moors were sent on their first tax collection run (just 3 years after the battle of Guadalete) to the Astur tribal area in the Cantabrian mountains they were given a severe whipping and sent back without a single "peseta". That was the battle of Covadonga to be precise. It was the beginning of the long “reconquista”. Many other areas were never fully taken over and there was never really such a thing as “muslim Spain”. Small Christian kingdoms peppered the peninsula and fought each other as well as the muslims depending on the alliances of the day.


Indeed, Places like Galicia, Asturias, Leon, Vascongadas never saw a muslim. The article is a load of crap

[ren0312]

Indeed, Places like Galicia, Asturias, Leon, Vascongadas never saw a muslim. The article is a load of crap

Those places were still under threat of Muslim occupation though if they did not act vigilantly, I mean if the Muslims were strong enough to almost conquer all of Western Europe, possilbly even getting beyond the Albus River(Elbe), if Charles Martel had not stopped them, then they were certainly strong enough to pose a threat to the reamining parts of the Iberian Peninsula, it was the defeat at Tours that brought the Muslim advance to a halt, I think, if Charles Martel was defeated at Tours, then those states falling is only a matter of time, otherwise they can also be vassal states.

[Saranof]

Let me sum this article up:

MUSLIMS ARE BAD AND CHOP PEOPLES HEADS OFF!!!

Christianity is fair, good and Gawd loves you all. Peace!



Sometimes I'm glad I can read, and then, sometimes I'm not. If I couldn't I wouldn't be able to read utter bollocks like that article.

[mi35d]

As odd as this article is, I find it even more odd to attempt to counter it by pulling information from a site called, www.jesusneverexisted.com (http://www.jesusneverexisted.com).

If the BS meter was pinging before I read that, it exploded and burst into flames with that URL.

[Fazla]

There are some mistakes:
1.Serbia was liberated from Turks during its 2 Uprisings in period 1804-1815, not 1739. The last Serbian territories which were under Ottoman Empire (Kosovo, Metohija and Vardarian Macedonia), known as Old Serbia were liberated in the First Balkan war 1912.
2. Muslims in Bosina and Herzegovina are not Bulgarian speaking, they are Serbian speaking. They call themselfs Bosniaks because they claim to rule over whole Bosnia and Herzegovina. But they can't deny that their grand...grandfathers was Serbs that became muselims.


Ah. why. just why. See this could have gone all smooth but you just have to talk **** about bosniaks, don't you? do you see me talking about serbs in the name of serbs?

We are as much serbian speaking as you are bosnian speaking. And no we call ourselves bosniaks because that's how the inhabitants of bosnia were called since centuries. And my grand grandfather could be a "dobar bosnjanin" or a serb or a croat most probably as he could be a turk that migrated to bosnia, as he could be a muslim hungarian that fled to bosnia after hungaria fell, I couldn't care less. We are Bosniaks now and deal with it. And next time refrain from stupid replies in our name, as we don't pretend to know why serbs do certain things.


Btw, LOL @ the article

[Saranof]

As odd as this article is, I find it even more odd to attempt to counter it by pulling information from a site called, www.jesusneverexisted.com (http://www.jesusneverexisted.com).

If the BS meter was pinging before I read that, it exploded and burst into flames with that URL.

At least that one had sources

[Labud]

"When a good and true doctrine like Christianity comes along, it quickly finds its own way and spreads like wild fire. The birth of Christianity was not by force or by the sword; but in the truth and the love of God."


This is one of the most retarded things I've ever read. Ever.

You must carefuly read all of the words before making conclusions. ;)

@Fazla
Bosnian Language doesn't exist. It is funny, just like it is funny if you say that there is american alnguage or australian language. They all speaking English, just like all of us speaking Serbian. Bosnians are peple who live in Bosnia, it is not nationality (because, there are Bosnian Serbs and Bosnian Croats, too. I agree that you have formed your nationality in last few centuries, but this is not proper name for it.

[Fazla]

You must carefuly read all of the words before making conclusions. ;)

@Fazla
Bosnian Language doesn't exist. It is funny, just like it is funny if you say that there is american alnguage or australian language. They all speaking English, just like all of us speaking Serbian. Bosnians are peple who live in Bosnia, it is not nationality (because, there are Bosnian Serbs and Bosnian Croats, too. I agree that you have formed your nationality in last few centuries, but this is not proper name for it.

We've been trough this a hundred of time, and we perfectly know our points of view. I don't get why you keep pushing for it.

I'm out, this forum doesn't need more balkan debates. If you wanna take it as a won argument, feel as you did.

[Lazy Lob]

Those places were still under threat of Muslim occupation though if they did not act vigilantly, I mean if the Muslims were strong enough to almost conquer all of Western Europe, possilbly even getting beyond the Albus River(Elbe), if Charles Martel had not stopped them, then they were certainly strong enough to pose a threat to the reamining parts of the Iberian Peninsula, it was the defeat at Tours that brought the Muslim advance to a halt, I think, if Charles Martel was defeated at Tours, then those states falling is only a matter of time, otherwise they can also be vassal states.

So many "ifs" and so little time. ***sigh***

And if all the "ifs" were the other way around, which they could easily be if you take such a view.

[Lancero]

A map of the peninsula can easly respond to any doubts...

The invasion at her highest
http://www.sabuco.com/historia/images/Edad%20Media.%20El%20califato%20de%20Córdoba..jpg

[khukuri]

I didnt even read the post in order to see the bs

[Friendly Fire]

Let me sum this article up:

MUSLIMS ARE BAD AND CHOP PEOPLES HEADS OFF!!!

Christianity is fair, good and Gawd loves you all. Peace!



Sometimes I'm glad I can read, and then, sometimes I'm not. If I couldn't I wouldn't be able to read utter bollocks like that article.

Sverige can really be a pain when religious lunacy is involved.

That's why I love it...

[Ordie]

The question should be

"Why did Christianity (Byzantium) fail in the Holy Lands, and North Africa?"

The Eastern Roman Emipre and Persia both exhausted themselves in fighting each other. At the same time Islam was coming into fruition from the south. Islam's simple message, conversion methods, and implementation of science and technology were some of many factors for its rise.

Previlant religions rise, fail or morph into new ones.
Zaroastrian was a common religion in Persia and the Middle East. Only to be supplanted by Islam and Christianity, However many of its major messages, such as Monotheism and the concept of good and evil are within Christianity and Islam.

Moreover Islam is a derivation of both Judism and Christianity.

Many Roman and Egyptian religious traditions are now a part of Christianity. Saturnelia, a Roman Winter solstace holiday is the basis of modern day Christmas celebrations.

As for me

I only celebrate Festivus.

Festivus for the Rest of Us!!!!!

[ArmchairGeneral]

And this is why I love coming on this site. Some guy puts up a MASSIVE message and everyone uses facts and evidence to demolish him. No one starts a flame war, no one goes mad, everyone looks at it, just checks the facts.

Saranoff got it spot on. This is why this places rocks. Mp.net STRONG!!!!

[Mastermind]

Whoo! That's some heavy reading...now, I go. For if I stay, I will get negative points...Byeee! MM

[Chucky]

During this Islamic period, Hindu structures were forcefully destroyed or converted into Mosques and other Islamic structures. The World famous Taj Mahal is one such building, which was originally a Hindu Temple.
LOL!

News to me... the article it self is full of lies and distorted version of history. How can it speak on behalf of 1.2 billion people who follow Islam today?

Islam did not fail, it was the people who failed to follow islamic teachings and once you leave your principles, you are doomed.

[Ordie]

How can it speak on behalf of 1.2 billion people who follow Islam today?

You can't because you can't view Islam as one single entity.
Within the "Islamic World" there are hundereds of languages, customs and norms not related to Islam. Many of the daily practices are more cultural norms than religious. Moreover there are many sects and schools of thought within this religion.

This is why its very dangerous to generalize and judge the majority from the actions of the few. Its very much like calling Christians terrorists for the actions of the Dranch Davidians or People's Temple.

[IraGlacialis]

History thus far bears this out as we have not seen the development of a new monotheistic tradition emerge from the Judeo-Christo-Islamic line in nearly 1400 years.
Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses. They don't really seem to fit into the normal mold of Protestant basis.

As for the article...rofl

[ren0312]

So many "ifs" and so little time. ***sigh***

And if all the "ifs" were the other way around, which they could easily be if you take such a view.


Well historical analysis is filled with "what ifs", it is what makes history very interesting in my opinion, the idea how just a few turning points could really change life as we know it.

[ren0312]

The question should be

"Why did Christianity (Byzantium) fail in the Holy Lands, and North Africa?"

The Eastern Roman Emipre and Persia both exhausted themselves in fighting each other. At the same time Islam was coming into fruition from the south. Islam's simple message, conversion methods, and implementation of science and technology were some of many factors for its rise.

Previlant religions rise, fail or morph into new ones.
Zaroastrian was a common religion in Persia and the Middle East. Only to be supplanted by Islam and Christianity, However many of its major messages, such as Monotheism and the concept of good and evil are within Christianity and Islam.

Moreover Islam is a derivation of both Judism and Christianity.

Many Roman and Egyptian religious traditions are now a part of Christianity. Saturnelia, a Roman Winter solstace holiday is the basis of modern day Christmas celebrations.

As for me

I only celebrate Festivus.

Festivus for the Rest of Us!!!!!

If Islam was not backed up by armed force, I really doubt that it would have the ability to displace Christianity and Zoroastrinism as the dominant religions in the Middle East, after all, before the Muslims were finally able to get control of a majority of Anatolia in 1071, Anatolia was still majority Christian, although Islam may have gotten a few converts, I really doubt whtether they would be able to achieve a majority had they not sucessfully invaded the territories of the Eastern Roman Empire and the Sasanids.

[supercontra]

"When a good and true doctrine like Christianity comes along, it quickly finds its own way and spreads like wild fire. The birth of Christianity was not by force or by the sword; but in the truth and the love of God."


This is one of the most retarded things I've ever read. Ever.

I second that, all religion is a bunch of fairy tales. You might as well believe in Santa Claus or the toothfairy.

[derkrieger]

LOL!

News to me... the article it self is full of lies and distorted version of history. How can it speak on behalf of 1.2 billion people who follow Islam today?

Islam did not fail, it was the people who failed to follow islamic teachings and once you leave your principles, you are doomed.
you are right sir, i definitely agree.

"""""During this Islamic period, Hindu structures were forcefully destroyed or converted into Mosques and other Islamic structures. The World famous Taj Mahal is one such building, which was originally a Hindu Temple """"

Secondly as far as I know Taj Mahal was built by Moslems, by a Moslem Emperor actually, to the memory of his wife.

[Thor]

I second that, all religion is a bunch of fairy tales. You might as well believe in Santa Claus or the toothfairy.
You sound like Hitler

But he was of course catholic, but still despised all desert religions.

[Lazy Lob]

You sound like Hitler

Whaaaaat?



You accuse someone of sounding like Hitler (with the other connotations that brings) just because they don’t believe in religion.

[Thor]

Count the oxymorons

Yes

[Lazy Lob]

Count the oxymorons

Yes

One...........? p-)

[sethen]

"When a good and true doctrine like Christianity comes along, it quickly finds its own way and spreads like wild fire. The birth of Christianity was not by force or by the sword; but in the truth and the love of God."


This is one of the most retarded things I've ever read. Ever.

X2 Christianity called be just as rude and crude as the other religions!!!!!!!!!!!

[rjbhutton]

I love religious debates that use ancient texts as "sources" or evidence for an argument. Have you ever taken notes for class or for a work meeting? How often are those notes an accurate depiction of what was actually said or what happened (leaving, for the moment, the issue of perspective)? Not very often... it was next to impossible to accurately record exactly what was said or what happened pre-audio/video recording (which themselves have perspective issues). Now, imagine that these meeting "notes" are not written down for centuries, but merely passed on by word of mouth... (anyone play "chinese" whipsers?!!). Do you know how many transcription errors occur between the actual event and the recording of that event?? Now translate that record into another language....

Wait..., Santa isn't real???!!!! and the tooth fairy.... aaaaaaaaaaah! "Damn you!! Damn you to hell!!"

Each to their own... just stay out of mine.

[mudbunny]

I think it also bears saying that Islam demands more of it's followers than most Christian doctrines, and let's face it, some people are too damn lazy for the discipline; I see alot of people in the U.S bitch about going to mass once a week.

[ex Strathcona]

I think it also bears saying that Islam demands more of it's followers than most Christian doctrines, and let's face it, some people are too damn lazy for the discipline; I see alot of people in the U.S bitch about going to mass once a week.

plenty of lip service Muslims out there too.

[Thor]

I think it also bears saying that Islam demands more of it's followers than most Christian doctrines, and let's face it, some people are too damn lazy for the discipline; I see alot of people in the U.S bitch about going to mass once a week.
Absolutely wrong in a historical context.

[mudbunny]

Absolutely wrong in a historical context.

And why is that?

[Thor]

And why is that?
Christianity today is adapted to the secular societies it exists within and is entirely different from what it was before.

[Zathras]

I think it also bears saying that Islam demands more of it's followers than most Christian doctrines, and let's face it, some people are too damn lazy for the discipline; I see alot of people in the U.S bitch about going to mass once a week.

well muslims are spose to pray 5 times a day, however most simply dont.

alot find it hard to goto the mosque once every friday.

they still call themselves muslim tho

apart from the above two and not drinking and eating only halal meat there isnt anything else muslims must adhere to in their day to day lives.

[gustavski]

well those people are not worthy muslims... there many kind of muslim these days...

[Zathras]

well those people are not worthy muslims... there many kind of muslim these days...

well thats how muslims are thesedays m8, they do not pray 5 times a day.

especially here in the west.

I am happy that most are like this, better then being bearded nutters.

[baboon6]

I second that, all religion is a bunch of fairy tales. You might as well believe in Santa Claus or the toothfairy.

Exactly! I don't have anything against people having belief systems, as long as they realise they are all man-made.

[GrkWebMaster]

Islam is a forced religion a faith of obdience or death what morale person would accept such babarism.

[Chounch McGavin]

No one ever talks about Indonesia.. The islands-region inhabits the world's largest Muslim population

[Freedom-Fries]

Indonesia was supprted by the West because socialists/leftist were getting a foothold there, at the time we thought

commies = the ultimate evil
muslim bombers = free happy and tolerant religious folk



Count the oxymorons



Read the 'Arabs at War' thread

[Mahir]

The main reason for Islam’s failure in the above-mentioned countries; could surely be in their Quran. The Quran is a book of an imperfect scripture (with errors, contradictions, irrational assumptions, historical inaccuracies and absurdities, with only 114 chapters against the Bible’s 1,189 chapters). The chapters of the Quran are not arranged in importance, continuity, holiness, biography, chronology, significance or sequence of any sort, but are arranged simply by length - the longest chapter, followed by the next longest chapter and the last chapter with just 6 lines. Thus, the first half of the Quran accounts for only 20 chapters, and the second half accounts for 94 chapters (of total 114 chapters). There is no correlation between chapters. Verses are disorderly arranged and jumbled up in unrelated subjects/topics.


Another reason could be in the inhuman Quranic Doctrine. The Quran demands Muslims to kill non-Muslims “wherever you find them”. “Smite non-Muslims’ neck and fingers before killing them” (just for being non-believers of Islam, irrespective of race, language, creed, colour, and weather man, woman or child), “deceive and plot against non-Muslims”, “slay infidels (kill non-Muslims)”, “do not take orders from non-Muslims”, “Muslims are not to be friends of non-Muslims”; the list is long and could be found in the Article, “Is Islam Practical?” The Quran cannot possibly be from a ‘Real True God’ to any rationally thinking person; but surely a doctrine inspired by Satan?


The chief Mufti cursed Ataturk and said Allah will bring his fury on him. Kemal Ataturk, calmly pulled the rope and hung him in public and said, “I couldn’t care less”


i am very for sad for the person who wrote this..

1)Trying to criticise Allah..
2)lies lies lies and lies..

i wish Allah will forgive his sins.

[Bandeirante]

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e372/Babitonga/templario.jpg

[nagant_m44]

Wow! really, weird some people take this kind of stuff serious.

OK Islam spread by force, but how can some deniy the brutal/bloody past of Christianity??

Christianity was the first creed in history to exterminate its adversaries in the name of love

1000 Years of Carnage & Barbarity in the name of Christ

http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/1000years.htm

Missionaries or Murderers?
– The Christianising of Europe

http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/murderers.htm

http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/cruelty.html

LOL great source, nice and unbiased rofl

[Silent_Hunter]

www.hinduholocaust.org (http://www.hinduholocaust.org)

www.historyofjihad.org

[IraGlacialis]

www.historyofjihad.org (http://www.historyofjihad.org)
Neutral my ass. That site is as paranoid as its interpretation of Islam. Well, at least it said that it hates all Abrahamic religions. So it's all good.

[Rune_X2]

If anything, Islam is the Hegelian synthesis of Judaism and Christianity, combining the legalistic, public religion of Judaism with the private, personal relationship with God from Christianity into a single religion that encompases both the individual and society. Not surprisingly, Islam has been and continues to be one of the fastest spreading religions, and in Hegelian fashion, could be seen as the end of monotheistic religion. History thus far bears this out as we have not seen the development of a new monotheistic tradition emerge from the Judeo-Christo-Islamic line in nearly 1400 years.I think there are a few Jewish sects that fall outside the mainstream and could be called new developments. Christianity, of course, has plenty of new Christian, or pseudo-Christian, groups that are built on top of more mainstream Christianity. And there have been many new religious inventions built on top of Islam. Druse, Sky Kingdom, Baha'ism – just to name a few. Just as Islam is not a single entity, but itself split up in many competing, and often enough warring, sects.

Islam is no more "the end of monotheistic religion" than Zorastrism.

[Mastermind]

I will resist any religion that imposes itself on my life or tries to damage the minds of my family members. I don't give a damn what others choose to believe...but when they begin assaulting others who do not belive their way, or make laws that force citizens to bend to their religous views, then I am armed up and ready to fight like hell. Because I will never be a religious slave.MM

[Silent_Hunter]

www.faithfreedom.org (http://www.faithfreedom.org)

www.indonesia.faithfreedom.org

[Freedom-Fries]

I second that, all religion is a bunch of fairy tales. You might as well believe in Santa Claus or the toothfairy.

You mean Santa and Mohammed ain't real ?


What about all the Cartoonist Jihad and the frenzy when they got the news that the Koran got flushed?

[rb132]

You mean Santa and Mohammed ain't real ?




http://www.normalbobsmith.com/satanssalvation/pfss_comic103.html (http://www.normalbobsmith.com/satanssalvation/pfss_comic103.html)

[ZYTAN]

If you noticed, there isnt much about muhammed, what he did, who he was, his parents, brothers or sisters. WHY? Simple, most of Mullahs that are not affraid of the truth know the answer.
Muhammed was a outlaw, his main plan was to over thrown the king of MESSO now known as Modern Iraq.
So the king has ordered to have his head cut off, but Mohammed was hiding in the Church, the church of the east among Christians. At the same time Mohammed’s sister came to visit him and there Sargiz Bokarah fell in love with her. That’s when Mohammed made a deal with Sargiz, if you was to write me a book similar to your holly book you shall have my sister.
Before the completion of the book ( Quran ) Sargiz and Mohammed left Messo and headed South. Once they arrived to Saudi, Sargiz had almost finished writing the book, Mohammed told him to go down the dry water Well, that way people don’t find out about what’s going on. Yes people do stupid stupid things when their in love.
So, once the book was completed there was another Man who was claiming to be the Prophet, so Mohammed pulled the Book ( quran) out of the water well and said look I’m the true prophet and who believes in me shall cast 7 stones in this water well, for the devil is in there. Does this ring a bell?
Well, if you would travel to Mecca Medina, you will see a mountain of stones. To be honest with you Mohammed was a Child abuser, at the age of 53/54 he married a 9 year old girl, yes 9 year old and her name was AISHA.
When Mohammed died he was wraped in black, and before he dided he gave his two headed sword to Ali and said to him, “ You shall rule over the world with this”
That’s how Islam started 600+ years after Christ. For those of you who Love Christianity, Jews, America, Freedom and everything about it I urge you guys to watch the 60 minute movied called OBSESSION you can get it at OBSESSIONTHEMOVIE.COM
Thanks for reading.

[Fazla]

If you noticed, there isnt much about muhammed, what he did, who he was, his parents, brothers or sisters. WHY? Simple, most of Mullahs that are not affraid of the truth know the answer.

I don't get it, it's quite the contrary. The problem to be honest is there are way too many accounts we have on Muhammed.


To be honest with you Mohammed was a Child abuser, at the age of 53/54 he married a 9 year old girl, yes 9 year old and her name was AISHA.

why do people come with this again again, and again. There is only one line of hadiths that say this. All other hadiths say she was at least 14+ years old.


When Mohammed died he was wraped in black, and before he dided he gave his two headed sword to Ali and said to him, “ You shall rule over the world with this”

ooh, really? than I guess all the billion sunnis in the world have no clue why they are sunnis in first place.


For those of you who Love Christianity, Jews, America, Freedom and everything about it I urge you guys to watch the 60 minute movied called OBSESSION you can get it at OBSESSIONTHEMOVIE.COM
Thanks for reading.

I guess we will be enlightened after it...

I'm not gonna bother relying to the King conspiracy. I have already heard way too many different accounts on Muhamed by non muslims. First he worshiped the Moon goddes. Than some fish goddes. than he was a christian heretic. Now the King conspiracy. Trust what you want.

[ZYTAN]

Then i got a question for you, why do some mullahs and immas wear black and some wear Green??? If you know the answer to this, then you wouldnt be a muslim, because the symbole of the Green color rope/rag and Black would shock you, thats if you knew.

[ZYTAN]

Besides, Did you know that muhammed had 30+ wifes and yes AISHA was 9 years old.

[Fazla]

Then i got a question for you, why do some mullahs and immas wear black and some wear Green??? If you know the answer to this, then you wouldnt be a muslim, because the symbole of the Green color rope/rag and Black would shock you, thats if you knew.

No I don't know
1) because i'm sunni and (but i am sure you know ;) ) there are only mullahs and imams as political figures only among shias.

2) because I don't care much what non-muslims say some colours means in Islam. Don't trust everything people tells you


Besides, Did you know that muhammed had 30+ wifes

I was told they were 50+


and yes AISHA was 9 years old.

and i repeat, just one line of hadiths says that, all the other ones confirm she was at least 14

[IraGlacialis]

Besides, Did you know that muhammed had 30+ wifes

I was told they were 50+
Oh yeah? King Solomon had 700 wives and 300 concubines. BEAT THAT!! :-D

I find it great how people are so quick to condemn Islam just because Muhammed might of had 30-50 wives, from which one was 14, when all they have to do is look in the Old Testement to see that the Hebrews/Israelites weren't any better.

[ZYTAN]

well im glad that your a sunni, like i said most of irans pop is shia and my fathers friends majority were sunni. As a child i asked him about that, and he said that the sunni's were more civilized and modrate people. May i ask which country your from?

[hughdotoh]

Islam didn't fail; it's the muslims who did. Just like christians and joos.

[Fazla]

I don't think shias are less civilised or anything. I think people from every damn group of this world are less civilised. Anyways, yes of course, I am from Bosnia, Sarajevo.

[Labud]

Oh yeah? King Solomon had 700 wives and 300 concubines. BEAT THAT!! :-D

I find it great how people are so quick to condemn Islam just because Muhammed might of had 30-50 wives, from which one was 14, when all they have to do is look in the Old Testement to see that the Hebrews/Israelites weren't any better.

Mohammad had 12 wifes, but not all of them in the same moment (some of them died earlier, and he brought himself another wife).

[LRPV]

As profoundly religious as I am, I find the original question exceedingly broad. There are already tangents developing. To what purpose? It might be useful to clarify parameters to the debate. My 2c

[IraGlacialis]

I think the purpose of the guy making the article (practically all which is BS) was either he hated Islam with a passion or he just wanted attention. Then the thread turned into another arguement on how evil or not evil Islam is.

[LRPV]

Ok, then I am not the only one a bit suss about the posts of S/S. Cheers.

[Durandal]

We have another new turd in the forum...

Just great.




If you noticed, there isnt much about muhammed, what he did, who he was, his parents, brothers or sisters. WHY? Simple, most of Mullahs that are not affraid of the truth know the answer.
Muhammed was a outlaw, his main plan was to over thrown the king of MESSO now known as Modern Iraq.
So the king has ordered to have his head cut off, but Mohammed was hiding in the Church, the church of the east among Christians. At the same time Mohammed’s sister came to visit him and there Sargiz Bokarah fell in love with her. That’s when Mohammed made a deal with Sargiz, if you was to write me a book similar to your holly book you shall have my sister.
Before the completion of the book ( Quran ) Sargiz and Mohammed left Messo and headed South. Once they arrived to Saudi, Sargiz had almost finished writing the book, Mohammed told him to go down the dry water Well, that way people don’t find out about what’s going on. Yes people do stupid stupid things when their in love.
So, once the book was completed there was another Man who was claiming to be the Prophet, so Mohammed pulled the Book ( quran) out of the water well and said look I’m the true prophet and who believes in me shall cast 7 stones in this water well, for the devil is in there. Does this ring a bell?
Well, if you would travel to Mecca Medina, you will see a mountain of stones. To be honest with you Mohammed was a Child abuser, at the age of 53/54 he married a 9 year old girl, yes 9 year old and her name was AISHA.
When Mohammed died he was wraped in black, and before he dided he gave his two headed sword to Ali and said to him, “ You shall rule over the world with this”
That’s how Islam started 600+ years after Christ. For those of you who Love Christianity, Jews, America, Freedom and everything about it I urge you guys to watch the 60 minute movied called OBSESSION you can get it at OBSESSIONTHEMOVIE.COM
Thanks for reading.

[Rune_X2]

You mean Santa and Mohammed ain't real ?


What about all the Cartoonist Jihad and the frenzy when they got the news that the Koran got flushed?Well you go ahead and make a cartoon of Santa and I promise you, you'll have the mother of all cartoon riots on your hands. Greenlanders will come tearing down Nuuk, burning and screaming, torch your embassy and threathen to have you eaten alive by icebears and removed from Santa's Christmas present list!

[Kant]

Well you go ahead and make a cartoon of Santa and I promise you, you'll have the mother of all cartoon riots on your hands. Greenlanders will come tearing down Nuuk, burning and screaming, torch your embassy and threathen to have you eaten alive by icebears and removed from Santa's Christmas present list!
I'm pretty sure that Santa lives in Lapland, that would put him somewhere in Suomi.

[Rune_X2]

I'm pretty sure that Santa lives in Lapland, that would put him somewhere in Suomi.*shhhhh* !!!! The Greenlanders are likely to hit you with a Polar Fatwa if they heard you utter such henious heresy!

The Finns are just trying to milk the cash cow with a bit of turism. Everybody knows Santa lives in Greenland.

[Ramblin' Rover]

Good info about the persecution of Christians in today's Iran.

http://www.jubileecampaign.co.uk/world/ira1.htm

[sp2c]

this thread is awesome!

[eugenlitwin]

:cantbeli:


And Islam did survived on the Iberian Peninsula after the reconquista.


How many years, where?

[IraGlacialis]

^^^
I don't ever remember the religion of Islam surviving (well, out in the the open) in Spain or Portugal after the Reconquista. I know that the Moors themselves were forced to convert or risk internment and deportation (Jews were just deported), and became known as Moriscos. A reason that the Castillians kept them was for use as architects and artisians. Then they were kicked out completely in the early 1600s by Philip III (even though the Duke of Lerma was the one pulling the strings).

[Lazy Lob]

:cantbeli:

Portugal and Spain didn't even existed at the time the mours invaded...
And Islam did survived on the Iberian Peninsula after the reconquista.

Very anal.

[getl0st]

I believe in the religion of freedom, where everyone if free to believe what they want as long as they don't try to force their beliefs onto others.

p.s. Religion isn't the problem, it's the corrupt religious leaders that are the problem.

Now leave me alone and stop knocking on my door...

[IraGlacialis]

Now leave me alone and stop knocking on my door...
Have you found Jesus?

[getl0st]

Have you found Jesus?

No, I found MP.net, it's a great substitute...

[IraGlacialis]

No, I found MP.net, it's a great substitute...
HEATHEN!! Now you shall burn! I am issuing a crusade against you. The army shall consist of intelligent design advocates, televangelists, and temperance activists. The combined power of idiotic fundementalism shall overwhealm you and your godless cohorts.

[Vuk1389]

Yah there are a few mistakes about the balkans....but overall this post was great!

[Chounch McGavin]

The main reason for Islam’s failure in the above-mentioned countries; could surely be in their Quran. The Quran is a book of an imperfect scripture (with errors, contradictions, irrational assumptions, historical inaccuracies and absurdities, with only 114 chapters against the Bible’s 1,189 chapters). The chapters of the Quran are not arranged in importance, continuity, holiness, biography, chronology, significance or sequence of any sort, but are arranged simply by length - the longest chapter, followed by the next longest chapter and the last chapter with just 6 lines. Thus, the first half of the Quran accounts for only 20 chapters, and the second half accounts for 94 chapters (of total 114 chapters). There is no correlation between chapters. Verses are disorderly arranged and jumbled up in unrelated subjects/topics.


Another reason could be in the inhuman Quranic Doctrine. The Quran demands Muslims to kill non-Muslims “wherever you find them”. “Smite non-Muslims’ neck and fingers before killing them” (just for being non-believers of Islam, irrespective of race, language, creed, colour, and weather man, woman or child), “deceive and plot against non-Muslims”, “slay infidels (kill non-Muslims)”, “do not take orders from non-Muslims”, “Muslims are not to be friends of non-Muslims”; the list is long and could be found in the Article, “Is Islam Practical?” The Quran cannot possibly be from a ‘Real True God’ to any rationally thinking person; but surely a doctrine inspired by Satan?

The Quran stated the world was not flat before any Anglos knew what they were standing on; I could type up countless other examples of scientific fact which the Quran has proclaimed.. Historical inaccuracies? Give me a break.

Infidel DOES NOT mean "non-Muslim." An infidel is someone who does not believe in God (Or Allah in Arabic), for example, an atheist

errors, contradictions, irrational assumptions, historical inaccuracies and absurdities
rofl rofl rofl You're right, because the Bible has none of those.

[Vuk1389]

Infidel DOES NOT mean "non-Muslim." An infidel is someone who does not believe in God (Or Allah in Arabic), for example, an atheist


Why would they kill anyone becuase of thier beliefs in the first place? :|

[Chounch McGavin]

Because religion is fvcked. Islam isn't the only faith that spread by the sword

[Lazy Lob]

Because religion is fvcked. Islam isn't the only faith that spread by the sword

Not really true. It was originally. One thing is how a religion’s inception is established another is once there how its followers “spread the word”. Christianity’s original spread never relied on the sword regardless of how many “enemies” it encountered.

[gustavski]

well islam doesnt fail in any country, is the people that uphold islam is the failure.... the reason for islam is 'fail' is because the muslims people only take some part of the law and the aspect of islam... there didnt utilize fully the islamic law and every aspect that related to islam.... that is why their 'islam' is imperfect and that is why is a failure.... the reason for the ottoman achievement once upon a time because their trully believe and uphold the islam religion, islam is their heart that is why, the ottoman is once the fearful superpower before it destruction.... for example like the taliban and nothern alliance, the different we can see is the taliban wholeheartedly what to establish islamic state, fully implement islamic law and etc... you can see nothern alliance not really islamic like the taliban, because northen allince is secular islam , only take some portion of the religion practice... before the u.s came, the northen alliance cant do anything to weaken the taliban, because they dont have the spirit of jihad like the taliban have... compare to the taliban, the n. alliance is better equip than the taliban...but still they afraid to the taliban... this also the reason why u.s dont bring their troops to the ground in the first place before the taliban regime really being ousted because they also fear the taliban.... compare to iraq, u.s know the iraqi soldier not really islamic compare to the taliban, so u.s dont worry much.... although the iraqi we can say far more equip than the taliban...

[Vuk1389]

In the artical it should have been mentioned of how the Bible is banned/illegal in Iran...

[Fazla]

In the artical it should have been mentioned of how the Bible is banned/illegal in Iran...

really?

I wonder how jews and christians are able to survive in Iran than

[Vuk1389]

really?

I wonder how jews and christians are able to survive in Iran than

There are none!

[IraGlacialis]

There are none!
http://www.womeninthebible.net/1.8-3_ESTHER_A_tomb_in_Iran_believed_to_belong_to_Esther_and_her_uncle_Mordecai.jpg
Tomb of Esther and Mordecai, revered by Jews, Christians, and Muslims.
http://www.bestirantravel.com/images/sights/isfahan/churchprayer.jpghttp://www.bestirantravel.com/images/sights/isfahan/church.jpg
Vank Church in Isfahan
http://www.state.gov/cms_images/2005_1223_iran_faith_600.jpg
Prayer in Shiraz

[Danik]

There are none!

Your confusing it with Saudia Arabia, honest mistake.

[Vuk1389]

http://www.womeninthebible.net/1.8-3_ESTHER_A_tomb_in_Iran_believed_to_belong_to_Esther_and_her_uncle_Mordecai.jpg
Tomb of Esther and Mordecai, revered by Jews, Christians, and Muslims.
http://www.bestirantravel.com/images/sights/isfahan/churchprayer.jpghttp://www.bestirantravel.com/images/sights/isfahan/church.jpg
Vank Church in Isfahan
http://www.state.gov/cms_images/2005_1223_iran_faith_600.jpg
Prayer in Shiraz
Ok....I have no clue then :cantbeli:yah maybe i got it confused with S.A.

[strjela]

I am still waiting for Bible III edition (the one with dinosaurs).

[Sniffit]

When you look at the process of Christianization in Northern Europe, i.e., Ireland, Scotland, Wales, Scandinavia, Germania, and the other parts of Europe located east of Russia and the Ukraine, but north of the Rhine(Rhenus) and the Danube(Donau), it seemed to be relatively peacefull, although it was not entirely fair and square either.

I am sorry if I missunderstood your post but what parts of europe are to the east of russia and ukraine?

Oh, and when it comes to the christinazation (is that even a word?) of northeaster europe. You should look into the crusades conducted by the Swords knights, German knights, Denmark and Sweden (there were even more then one crusade within what is today, mainland Sweden).

[Thor]

and i repeat, just one line of hadiths says that, all the other ones confirm she was at least 14
No, just fabricated thesis of interpretation by contemporary muselman scholars. Child brides are not uncommon even today in these parts of the world.

http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/5339/child20bride201co3.gif http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/6178/child20bride202lg4.gif



Bukhari (d. 870) and Muslim b. al-Hajjaj (d. 875) are in general regarded as the most authentic by Sunni Muslims. Both quote Aisha herself claiming she was six or seven at the time of her marriage and nine when the marriage was consummated.

Sahih Bukhari

According to Aisha:

The Prophet engaged me when I was a girl of six (years). We went to Medina and stayed at the home of Bani-al-Harith bin Khazraj. Then I got ill and my hair fell down. Later on my hair grew (again) and my mother, Um Ruman, came to me while I was playing in a swing with some of my girl friends. She called me, and I went to her, not knowing what she wanted to do to me. She caught me by the hand and made me stand at the door of the house. I was breathless then, and when my breathing became Allright, she took some water and rubbed my face and head with it. Then she took me into the house. There in the house I saw some Ansari women who said, "Best wishes and Allah's Blessing and a good luck." Then she entrusted me to them and they prepared me (for the marriage). Unexpectedly Allah's Apostle came to me in the forenoon and my mother handed me over to him, and at that time I was a girl of nine years of age.

According to Urwah ibn al-Zubayr:

Khadija died three years before the Prophet departed to Medina. He stayed there for two years or so and then he married 'Aisha when she was a girl of six years of age, and he consummated that marriage when she was nine years old.

According to Aisha:

the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old, and then she remained with him for nine years (i.e., till his death).

According to Ursa ibn al-Zubayr:

The Prophet wrote the (marriage contract) with 'Aisha while she was six years old and consummated his marriage with her while she was nine years old and she remained with him for nine years (i.e. till his death).

Sahih Muslim

According to Aisha:

Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) married me when I was six years old, and I was admitted to his house at the age of nine. She further said: We went to Medina and I had an attack of fever for a month, and my hair had come down to the earlobes. Umm Ruman (my mother) came to me and I was at that time on a swing along with my playmates. She called me loudly and I went to her and I did not know what she had wanted of me. She took hold of my hand and took me to the door, and I was saying: Ha, ha (as if I was gasping), until the agitation of my heart was over. She took me to a house, where had gathered the women of the Ansar. They all blessed me and wished me good luck and said: May you have share in good. She (my mother) entrusted me to them. They washed my head and embellished me and nothing frightened me. Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) came there in the morning, and I was entrusted to him.

According to Aisha:

Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) married me when I was six years old, and I was admitted to his house when I was nine years old

According to Aisha:

Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) married her when she was seven years old, and he was taken to his house as a bride when she was nine, and her dolls were with her; and when he (the Holy Prophet) died she was eighteen years old.

Sunan Abu Dawud

According to Aisha:

"The Apostle of Allah (peace be upon him) married me when I was seven or six. When we came to Medina, some women came. according to Bishr's version: Umm Ruman came to me when I was swinging. They took me, made me prepared and decorated me. I was then brought to the Apostle of Allah (peace be upon him), and he took up cohabitation with me when I was nine. She halted me at the door, and I burst into laughter."

According to Aisha:

When we came to Medina, the women came to me when I was playing on the swing, and my hair was up to my ears. They brought me, prepared me, and decorated me. Then they brought me to the Apostle of Allah (peace be upon him) and he took up cohabitation with me, when I was nine.

Tarikh al-Tabari

According to Aisha:

My mother came to me while I was being swung on a swing between two branches and got me down. My nurse took over and wiped my face with some water and started leading me. When I was at the door she stopped so I could catch my breath. I was brought in while Muhammad was sitting on a bed in our house. My mother made me sit on his lap. The other men and women got up and left. The Prophet consummated his marriage with me in my house when I was nine years old. Neither a camel nor a sheep was slaughtered on behalf of me." ... "(The Prophet) married her three years before the Emigration, when she was seven years old and consummated the marriage when she was nine years old, after he had emigrated to Medina in Shawwal. She was eighteen years old when he died".

According to Abd al-Hamid b. Bayan al-Sukkari:

Abd Allah b. Safwan together with another person came to Aishah and Aishah said (to the latter), "O so and so, have you heard what Hafsah has been saying?" He said, "Yes, o Mother of the Faithful." Abd Allah b. Safwan asked her, "What is that?" She replied, "There are nine special features in me that have not been in any woman, except for what God bestowed on Maryam bt. Imran. By God, I do not say this to exalt myself over any of my companions." "What are these?" he asked. She replied, "The angel brought down my likeness; the Messenger of God married me when I was seven; my marriage was consummated when I was nine; he married me when I was a virgin...."

[IraGlacialis]

No, just fabricated thesis of interpretation by contemporary muselman scholars. Child brides are not uncommon even today in these parts of the world.

http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/5339/child20bride201co3.gif http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/6178/child20bride202lg4.gif
And Islamic cultures aren't the only cultures that practice child marriage.
http://www.superartisticbc.ca/images/shop/469_1157big.jpghttp://www.dailycolonial.com/art/2004/11/9/thumb.a1.jpg (http://www.dailycolonial.com/art/2004/11/9/a1.jpg)

[Loki77]

And Islamic cultures aren't the only cultures that practice child marriage.
Which are the others?

[Willy]

Which are the others?

Some grazy Mormon sects in the USA?

[IraGlacialis]

Which are the others?
The first pic is Nepalese and the second is Himban. There are many examples of child marriages (usually girl with man, but sometimes with two kids), usually located in remote areas.

[Loki77]

Some grazy Mormon sects in the USA?
U.S have laws against pedophilia..

[Fazla]

No, just fabricated thesis of interpretation by contemporary muselman scholars. Child brides are not uncommon even today in these parts of the world.

Really? You know what is funny the most? that those "fabricated thesis" are supported by sahih hadiths

http://www.muslim.org/islam/aisha-age.htm

I'll just quote this part from a book from 1920s, so, not really a contemporary thesis

“A great misconception prevails as to the age at which Aisha was taken in marriage by the Prophet. Ibn Sa‘d has stated in the Tabaqat that when Abu Bakr [father of Aisha] was approached on behalf of the Holy Prophet, he replied that the girl had already been betrothed to Jubair, and that he would have to settle the matter first with him. This shows that Aisha must have been approaching majority at the time. Again, the Isaba, speaking of the Prophet’s daughter Fatima, says that she was born five years before the Call and was about five years older than Aisha. This shows that Aisha must have been about ten years at the time of her betrothal to the Prophet, and not six years as she is generally supposed to be. This is further borne out by the fact that Aisha herself is reported to have stated that when the chapter [of the Holy Quran] entitled The Moon, the fifty-fourth chapter, was revealed, she was a girl playing about and remembered certain verses then revealed. Now the fifty-fourth chapter was undoubtedly revealed before the sixth year of the Call. All these considerations point to but one conclusion, viz., that Aisha could not have been less than ten years of age at the time of her nikah, which was virtually only a betrothal. And there is one report in the Tabaqat that Aisha was nine years of age at the time of nikah. Again it is a fact admitted on all hands that the nikah of Aisha took place in the tenth year of the Call in the month of Shawwal, while there is also preponderance of evidence as to the consummation of her marriage taking place in the second year of Hijra in the same month, which shows that full five years had elapsed between the nikah and the consummation. Hence there is not the least doubt that Aisha was at least nine or ten years of age at the time of betrothal, and fourteen or fifteen years at the time of marriage.” [4] (http://www.muslim.org/islam/aisha-age.htm#_ftn4)


you can find much more material on the site I gave you hadiths and early islamic sources that prove my "fabricated thesis"

[Willy]

U.S have laws against pedophilia..

Since when has religious sects cared about un-godly laws?

[VetsandVettes]

"When a good and true doctrine like Christianity comes along, it quickly finds its own way and spreads like wild fire. The birth of Christianity was not by force or by the sword; but in the truth and the love of God."


This is one of the most retarded things I've ever read. Ever.


Yep. All religions are fiction spawned by the lack of enlightenment at the time. God made you sick for your sins. It wasn't tiny organisms you can't see dropping off your crap-stained hands, Doc.
How can anyone believe that giving money to the church gets you a seat in heaven, and that the lack thereof puts you burning in hell FOREVER?
What a load...

[IanSolo]

Wow! really, weird some people take this kind of stuff serious.

OK Islam spread by force, but how can some deniy the brutal/bloody past of Christianity??

Christianity was the first creed in history to exterminate its adversaries in the name of love

1000 Years of Carnage & Barbarity in the name of Christ

http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/1000years.htm

Missionaries or Murderers?
– The Christianising of Europe

http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/murderers.htm

http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/cruelty.html



Oh man, I don't think so.... U should go back with the memory to find the 1st creed that said to kill the other people and about christian creed it says just to love each other as brother..not to submit with the force the others.
About what Christians did in the past it was made by men, and men makes mistakes (the evil is inside the heart of the men, not outside.... St. Matthew's or Paul's words, I don't remember), it was not what was teached by Jesus Christ (really existed, as referred by Roman's authors).
About missions now, try to go to the poorest and a....le places in the world, maybe u will not find the UN but u certainly will find priests helping the people.

[IraGlacialis]

Will this thread ever die? (not that this post is helping anything)

Jesus said to "love thy enemy" and "thurn the other cheek". Yet we had Crusaders killing Jews and Muslims in the Holy Land, and Conquistidors destroying entire civilizations.
The Koran states that Jews, Christians, and Zoroastrians each have a piece of Heaven. Today, there are some mullahs damning Christians and Jews to Hell.
The Old Testement... er... talked about wiping cities (their inhabitants as well) off the face of the earth, throwing evil women out of second story windows to be eaten by dogs, and having a bunch of kids being ripped to shreds by a couple of bears just because they made fun of a prophet's baldness. :| But you don't see Israelis completely genociding all the Arabs living in the land (sorry Jews, that's as best as I could do).
Most religions are, by themselves, pure. It depends on how you want to interpret the writing on the book/scroll/tablet. You can interpret it towards reason or you can interpret it towards destruction.

[Bandeirante]

Christian wisdom says: When somebody hits you, give the other face.
Realpolitik wisdom says: When somebody wake up to kill you, wake earlier and kill him.

[Musa BIH]

There are some mistakes:
1.Serbia was liberated from Turks during its 2 Uprisings in period 1804-1815, not 1739. The last Serbian territories which were under Ottoman Empire (Kosovo, Metohija and Vardarian Macedonia), known as Old Serbia were liberated in the First Balkan war 1912.
2. Muslims in Bosina and Herzegovina are not Bulgarian speaking, they are Serbian speaking. They call themselfs Bosniaks because they claim to rule over whole Bosnia and Herzegovina. But they can't deny that their grand...grandfathers was Serbs that became muselims.


Actually, im from Bosnia and my ancestors were not serbian, they were Turks who setteled in bosnia during turkish rule, so you cant really say that about all bosniaks. And we are not "serbian speaking". We speak bosnian, which is different from serbian in some ways.

[Vuk1389]

Actually, im from Bosnia and my ancestors were not serbian, they were Turks who setteled in bosnia during turkish rule, so you cant really say that about all bosniaks. And we are not "serbian speaking". We speak bosnian, which is different from serbian in some ways.If you claim that you speak "Bosnian", you might as well say Canadians speak Canadian, Americians speak Americian...ect. How can you be so sure your ancestors were Turkish, can you prove this. If they are then your Turkish. And why don't you speak Turkish :| if all you ancestors are turkish...

[strjela]

If you claim that you speak "Bosnian", you might as well say Canadians speak Canadian, Americians speak Americian...ect. How can you be so sure your ancestors were Turkish, can you prove this. If they are then your Turkish. And why don't you speak Turkish :| if all you ancestors are turkish...

Why don't you explain the word Serb? Its not the same as it was in the past. Serb was a word every slavic person used to describe them self as(even croats , polish ...). Now after the movment of slavic people ,some changed their name to describe their tribe.

In todays world Serb means a balkan Slav/ilyrian/Vlach/Turk of ortodox christian faith, witch bosnjaks ain't.
Its not like we didn't have the same ancestors, but we are related in the same way to other slavs.

/how can you as a serb not read Vuk Karadzic ?

[Fazla]

Actually, im from Bosnia and my ancestors were not serbian, they were Turks who setteled in bosnia during turkish rule, so you cant really say that about all bosniaks. And we are not "serbian speaking". We speak bosnian, which is different from serbian in some ways.

Musa bro don't worry. They can hate bosnian language all they want yet it's teached even in serbia.

[Vuk1389]

Musa bro don't worry. They can hate bosnian language all they want yet it's teached even in serbia.AHAHAHA WOW.....too funny:roll:

[Fazla]

AHAHAHA WOW.....too funny:roll:

You mean I'm talking bs?

http://www.svetlost.co.yu/arhiva/2005/489/489-3.htm

you'll trust your people than

http://www.svetlost.co.yu/arhiva/2005/489/489-3.jpg

[Vuk1389]

You mean I'm talking bs?

http://www.svetlost.co.yu/arhiva/2005/489/489-3.htm

you'll trust your people than

http://www.svetlost.co.yu/arhiva/2005/489/489-3.jpgYou all know that you guys are Serbs that converted to muslims, and formed a new nation....and you speak the Serbian language.

[Freedom-Fries]

"Why did Christianity (Byzantium) fail in the Holy Lands, and North Africa?"


good question