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ariweiner
04-16-2004, 01:12 AM
What is the ROE of the Marines in Fallujah? Anyone knows?

Young US marines forge bonds, cope with death in war
Thu Apr 15,12:47 PM ET Add U.S. National - AFP to My Yahoo!

FALLUJAH, Iraq (AFP) - Marine Corporal Robert Long watched a white-tailed deer cross the no-man's land in the Sunni rebel bastion of Fallujah before sunrise.

The deer moved beyond the treacherous industrial wasteland where insurgents and US marines have hammmered each other for the past week.

"It was a real deer," Long, 26, said in disbelief, holed up in a dilapidated cinderblock attic, with peeling wall paper of Mickey Mouse, Donald Duck and a gallery of Walt Disney characters.

Long had been thinking of his friend Lance Corporal Blake Wofford, killed by a gunman last Wednesday. Now he hopes that every man he shoots is the one who killed his friend.

Hours later, on the same spot where the deer roamed, one of Long's men sees an Arab male walking with his hands in his pockets near their position. Long asks the marine to move out of the way. He wants this kill himself.

He aims his M-16 rifle through the thin wood boards and sandbags providing cover and shoots the man dead.

"I think Blake this is for you. I hope this is the ****er who got you," Long says.

He defends his actions.

After intense fighting and public announcements calling for women and children to leave the city, he believes the only military-age male who could be walking on the streets without a white surrender flag is an insurgent.

"It's been rough on us," Long says as the body, clad in a black shirt and grey pants, lays in the dirt.

Long refuses to be burnt by the enemy. His comrade, Lance Corporal Ryan Deady, 20, agrees.

"We thought it was going to be good guys and bad guys. We thought it would be clear who were the innocent people, but everybody is shooting rocket-propelled grenades (RPGs)," Deady says.

"I feel numb. I used to feel sorry for them," he says, reflecting about the people killed in the intense urban warfare over the past week in Fallujah.

"It's getting ridiculous. Without my guys, I'd be in a padded cell."

Iraq has affected them deeply. Deady and Long rely on their 13-man assault squad to get by. Along with Wofford, Deady's best friend is Corporal Anthony Dori.

"We've been tight. We had no choice because we were stuck together, but we grew to love each other. Of course, we would never tell each other that," Deady laughs, embarrassed by his powerful sentiments.

He remembers the good times with Wofford.

When Deady woke up in a Tijuana, Mexico jail after busting into a candy store drunk and passing out behind the cash register, Wofford came to bail him out.

"He never let me live that one down," Deady says.

Now he and the others try to cheer themselves up. Deady and Dori joke that Wofford is up in heaven arguing with God. They talk about visiting his family in Texas when they leave Iraq.

They remember an expensive meal at a Mexican restaurant last summer when they celebrated coming home from the first war. They spent 12 dollars on water and 14 dollars on a plate of iceburg lettuce.

Everyone was alive then and no one could imagine they would be back in Iraq fighting for their lives one year later.

"We have to be there for each other. If someone's feeling ****ty, you tell jokes. Dori was looking for nail clippers for a week. So I gave him mine. It made his day," Deady says.

"These guys are my new best friends. I'm still friends with the guys back home. But we go through the same things here."

American Patriot
04-16-2004, 01:21 AM
ROE allow them to shoot dead anyone out during curfew.

FallenAngel
04-16-2004, 02:03 AM
since there is a "cease fire" (complete and utter bull****. Not worth the battery power it took to relay the command) I suspect that their ROE is defensive only at this point.

HOWEVER!

Marine Snipers are under orders to shoot ANYONE carrying a gun. This is the source of most of the "civilian" casualties.

martinexsquaddie
04-16-2004, 04:47 AM
from that article sounds a slightly dubious shooting :(

ariweiner
04-16-2004, 09:48 AM
A very dubious shooting. If the man had carried a weapon or was acting suspiciously, they would obviously have reported it. No warning shots even.

HELEX
04-16-2004, 10:09 AM
ROE are very simple in Iraq, shoot everybody who carries a Weapon and no uniform....

ariweiner
04-16-2004, 10:16 AM
shoot everybody who carries a Weapon

But this person wasn't carrying a weapon. I don't think that would have been omitted from the article if he had.

One more question. Could this marine be court-martialed for shooting an unarmed person who posed no visible or immediate threat?

ShotOver
04-16-2004, 10:32 AM
No he can't, they have been told to shoot any Able-bodied man/young adult in Fallujah, weapon or not.

They have orderd an evac of people from the city, and everyone who has stayed is a combatant, and will be shot.

Uncle Sam
04-16-2004, 10:42 AM
ROE are very simple in Iraq, shoot everybody who carries a Weapon and no uniform....

Aaahh HELEX...Don't tell everyone our secrets. :cantbeli:

shrek
04-16-2004, 11:12 AM
I'm sure you've heard the term "free fire zone" used before. it was created in Vietnam to indicate areas where there "were no friendlys". The same rule applies here although they have fanciernames for them. A zone is established, the message is put out in a way that no able bodied person could not get it, and after that, if you're in that "zone", you will be shot or bombed until you are no longer a threat.
It reduces confusion and saves lives. The Marines don't have to let men close enough to do them harm, and after a few of the bad guys are killed that way they usually get the message that even if you put your weapon down and stroll around with your hands in your pockets marking Marine positions to hit with RPG's later, when it's dark, they're gonna smoke you. Hey, there ain't nothin' pretty about War.


note: our ROE was that if we saw a man in the "zone" carrying an RPG, shoot to kill. Wasn't the same for everyone else. They had to be threatened or fired on, that's why they liked to take us with them!

front
04-16-2004, 11:36 AM
ariweiner's question still stands.

Does anyone know, or have a link to a report on, the official rules of engagement for the Marines in Fallujah?

cheers

front

Fox2
04-16-2004, 12:45 PM
Does anyone know, or have a link to a report on, the official rules of engagement for the Marines in Fallujah?


Whatever happened to OPSEC? :roll:

Specific details of operations (to include rules of engagement) should not be open for all to see, nevermind the internet, where the enemy can gain intelligence just as easily as some random internet user can.

Uncle Sam
04-16-2004, 12:58 PM
ariweiner's question still stands.

Does anyone know, or have a link to a report on, the official rules of engagement for the Marines in Fallujah?

cheers

front

HELEX knows....He is so smart. :lol:

ROE are very simple in Iraq, shoot everybody who carries a Weapon and no uniform....

cavtroop4
04-16-2004, 01:18 PM
Does anyone know, or have a link to a report on, the official rules of engagement for the Marines in Fallujah?


Whatever happened to OPSEC? :roll:

Specific details of operations (to include rules of engagement) should not be open for all to see, nevermind the internet, where the enemy can gain intelligence just as easily as some random internet user can.


one can only speculate...

ibstolidude
04-16-2004, 01:27 PM
ariweiner's question still stands.

Does anyone know, or have a link to a report on, the official rules of engagement for the Marines in Fallujah?

cheers

front
No & if they say they do they are full of BS.

Garibaldi
04-16-2004, 01:31 PM
"We thought it was going to be good guys and bad guys. We thought it would be clear who were the innocent people, but everybody is shooting rocket-propelled grenades (RPGs)," Deady says.



This statement sounds too similar to what american GIs used to think about vietnamese population 36 years ago. When will american commanders learn to deal with unconventional, guerrilla-style warfare, and to train their troops for such a situation? Conventional war ROE in civilian areas will only alienate troops from the local population and create more resentement among the people they are supposed to liberate.

Haiw
04-16-2004, 01:40 PM
ariweiner's question still stands.

Does anyone know, or have a link to a report on, the official rules of engagement for the Marines in Fallujah?

cheers

front
Commander: "Ok Marines, new rules of engagement just in, they're as following:"
'Nail them bastard Hooah!'
;)

AFG
04-16-2004, 01:51 PM
i thought their cry for the Marines was Oorah not Hooah.... ;)

cavtroop4
04-16-2004, 01:56 PM
i thought their cry for the Marines was Oorah not Hooah.... ;)

close enough, i'd say

FallenAngel
04-16-2004, 02:25 PM
I've read conflicting reports in some of the new articles posted here and elsewhere on the web.

Snipers are shooting anyone who is carrying a weapon. They also also shooting any male "of military age" (i assume something like 16-50?) However, technically, they are still not on the offensive.

Course, it could be as simple as "kill them all and let God sort 'em out."

front
04-16-2004, 02:33 PM
" Specific details of operations (to include rules of engagement) should not be open for all to see, nevermind the internet, where the enemy can gain intelligence just as easily as some random internet user can."

Granted. That clears up the issue nicely.

"Whatever happened to OPSEC?"

Well that is just it. No-one outside the "need-to-know" knows.

The only ones who know the rules of engagement are the commanders and troops in contact. Any journalist or commenter who attempts to speculate on comments by commanders or troops in the field that the rules were not followed only clouds the issue... and the rules can change daily.

So ' ariweiner', in light of what we now know, which is that we don't know much if anything, we can only surmise that the guy who had his hands in his pockets walking too near a Marine got blown away within the rules of engagement.

cheers

front

Damian
04-16-2004, 02:50 PM
"But this person wasn't carrying a weapon. I don't think that would have been omitted from the article if he had."


He could be a terrorist that was checking Marines' positions.... and are you sure that he doesn't carry gun, grenade etc into his pockets?

ShotOver
04-17-2004, 03:27 AM
Yeah, he could of been a scout, bait, anything.

ForceReaper
04-17-2004, 03:54 AM
Who the f**k walks with their hands in their pockets in a war zone!
Many of my young Marines are over there and one hard driving Devil Dog(sniper) has 26 confirmed! Ohh-Rah Get some

martinexsquaddie
04-17-2004, 04:54 AM
Well its a warzone to you guys
but it happened to be his home :(
Maybe he was a bad guy maybe not :(
If hes'carrying a weapon slot him not a problem. If he approachs your post and doe'snt stop when given a warning slot him again not a problem.
there was an unfortunate incident when and iraqi worker was late for work at basra and refused to stop at the main gate and got shot :( ROES followed but even so :(
But how any local commander can issue an Order (if true) that men of military age can be shot on sight :roll:. I belive somebody needs to redo there law of armed conflict training. even the lawyers of jag would have a hard time getting you off that one. :roll:
My brother serving in basra has had by his reckoning at least a dozen times when ROE would have allowed him to use his weapon but has'nt because the target turns out to be friendly or the situation has been resolved by non lethal means.
The idea of a free fire zone was dubious in vietnam its very dubious when a city is declared a free fire zone.
OK the russians by now would have turned Falijah into a smoking crater.
But the USMC is supposed to be one of the best trained combat forces on the planet. Every action in Iraq is political

ShotOver
04-17-2004, 04:59 AM
They are well trained and professional, they are following orders.

That city has been ORDERED to evac all non combatants, so everyone who is left is now the enemy.

You don't know that mans mission, he could of been a scout, doing a bit of recce, could of been anything. You don't know how many lives that Marines haved by shooting him.

Yeah, i know the rule about do not judge the situation unless you have been there, or were there.

But that's just my 0.2c.

martinexsquaddie
04-17-2004, 08:13 AM
Everybody's left a combatant WTF :roll:
Its a city people may not have anywhere to go or any means to get out or just plain scared would you try to get pass a bunch of russians with tanks and guns?.
A slighty dubious ROE any male of military age is fair game bet jag did'nt have a look at that one before it was passed down the line :(