Why Turkey and EU must get closer to each other

[anafor2004]

Why Turkey and EU must get closer to each other*

Thursday, December 7, 2006




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The strategic decisions on enlargement to be taken by European leaders in the coming days are about the kind of Europe we want to create. Is it a static union turned inwards focusing on its own integration capacity? Or is a Europe looking outwards to the rest of the world ready to take on global challenges and global competition? Does the EU see the merits in building a wider community of stable, prosperous democracies or will we keep our neighbors at arms length?

Carl BILDT & Urmas PAET
The strategic decisions on enlargement to be taken by European leaders in the coming days are about the kind of Europe we want to create. Is it a static union turned inwards focusing on its own integration capacity? Or is a Europe looking outwards to the rest of the world ready to take on global challenges and global competition? Does the EU see the merits in building a wider community of stable, prosperous democracies or will we keep our neighbors at arms length?
The EU needs its success stories. At a time when the union needs to reconnect with its citizens and show the concrete benefits of European cooperation, enlargement should be proudly displayed as one of the EU's greatest achievements. And the benefits of continued enlargement must be carefully analyzed.
Few people disagree that enlargement has peacefully united much of Europe after generations of division and conflict. It has brought further stability, democracy and prosperity to the continent. The prospect of membership has acted as a catalyst for reform in many countries. Spain, Portugal and Greece threw off one-party rule and began to entrench democratic institutions during the 1970s. The prospect of EU membership acted as a powerful motor for change. In the 1990s, as the countries of the Balkan region and Central Europe emerged from the shadows of communism, the EU again drove a similar process.
We have created the largest single market in the world and a win-win situation for all EU-member states. Growth and living standards in the newest member states are blooming, while the old member states can enjoy a continued surplus in their trade balances with these countries. Three quarters of the investments in the new member states come from the older member states leading to production gains and increased competitiveness of European companies on the global market. Air pollution in the new member states has decreased 60-80 percent with clear environmental gains in neighboring countries. The challenges of cross-border crime, drug trafficking and climate change are topics that can be efficiently tackled on a European level.
In short, the virtues of past enlargements can hardly be questioned. But what about the future? Enlargement skepticism is said to be gaining ground in Europe. It is no secret that skepticism over enlargement is strongest regarding Turkey joining the EU. We argue -- on the contrary -- that Turkish membership would offer direct benefits to the people of Europe.
Europe will be more prosperous, more effective as a global player and more secure with Turkey as a member. A Turkey with a secular, democratic government will strengthen the EU with the addition of over 70 million people. Turkey's economy is one of the fastest growing in Europe; it is already a major market for European Union exporters. Turkey's geographical position is of vital strategic importance. The EU already depends on Turkey for cooperation against terrorism, drug trafficking, illegal migration and increasingly for the security of energy supplies to Europe.
And maybe most importantly, at a time when many of our citizens are worried about a so-called clash of civilizations, membership negotiations with Turkey provides reassurance that differing faiths can work together for a common goal. By binding our nearest and largest neighbor with a predominantly Muslim population, we build a wider circle of prosperous and stable democracies.
According to the latest Eurobarometer there is great support across Europe for the general arguments for enlargement. Sixty-two percent of the population says that enlargement is a good way to express European Union solidarity to candidate or potential candidate countries. Hence, the widely broadcasted message of enlargement skepticism seems somewhat exaggerated.
When we -- in view of the European Council in December -- discuss Turkey's relations to the EU, we should be clear about what is at stake. We all have an interest in the continued European modernization and reform of Turkey. It is no coincidence that Turkey's nearest neighbors in the EU -- Greece and Cyprus -- have been among the strongest supporters of this strategic imperative.
Both the European Union and Turkey have responsibilities they must fulfill regarding Cyprus. Turkey must open its airports and harbors to airplanes and ships from all member states including the Republic of Cyprus. The European Union on its part must honor the commitment it made in 2004 to end the isolation of the Turkish Cypriots. There is no formal link between these two tracks, but in the political reality they are interdependent.
Today's difficulties in these negotiations are a result of the failure in April 2004 to bridge the division of Cyprus. The so-called Annan-plan that had the explicit support of the EU was turned down in a referendum on the Greek Cypriot part of the island. However, the Turkish Cypriots, cheered on by Ankara, welcomed the plan. This was a brave step taken by the Turkish leadership.
In today's situation it is important to underline the importance of continued negotiations with Turkey -- in every way possible -- as well as renewed efforts to find a solution to the division of Cyprus under the auspices of the U.N. A reunification of the island can only be realized by bringing Turkey closer to Europe -- otherwise there is an apparent risk that the division becomes permanent.
The Finnish Presidency has done their utmost to find a solution that would enable the uninterrupted continuation of Turkey's accession process and improve the situation of both communities in Cyprus, but see, at present, no grounds for an agreement between the parties.
European leaders must now take their responsibility to overcome the current impasse. We need to give a constructive response that clearly states what each party has to do, but that does not deep freeze our relations with Turkey, nor close any doors to future enlargement. We must ensure that Turkey continues on its path towards further democratic reforms, prosperity and stability. In all other scenarios there is too much to lose for Turkey, for Cyprus and for the EU as a whole.
*Original version published in Die Welt, Dec. 5, 2006 Estonian version published in Postimees, Dec. 6, 2006

[Loki77]

Oh!!! more EUTOPIA....
Merry Christmas for Estonians...

[Lazy Lob]

Political sound bites that have nothing to do with reality.

[zulu261]

They must not.

[Ergnkon]

Why Turkey and EU must get closer to each other*

Thursday, December 7, 2006




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The strategic decisions on enlargement to be taken by European leaders in the coming days are about the kind of Europe we want to create. Is it a static union turned inwards focusing on its own integration capacity? Or is a Europe looking outwards to the rest of the world ready to take on global challenges and global competition? Does the EU see the merits in building a wider community of stable, prosperous democracies or will we keep our neighbors at arms length?

Carl BILDT & Urmas PAET
The strategic decisions on enlargement to be taken by European leaders in the coming days are about the kind of Europe we want to create. Is it a static union turned inwards focusing on its own integration capacity? Or is a Europe looking outwards to the rest of the world ready to take on global challenges and global competition? Does the EU see the merits in building a wider community of stable, prosperous democracies or will we keep our neighbors at arms length?
The EU needs its success stories. At a time when the union needs to reconnect with its citizens and show the concrete benefits of European cooperation, enlargement should be proudly displayed as one of the EU's greatest achievements. And the benefits of continued enlargement must be carefully analyzed.
Few people disagree that enlargement has peacefully united much of Europe after generations of division and conflict. It has brought further stability, democracy and prosperity to the continent. The prospect of membership has acted as a catalyst for reform in many countries. Spain, Portugal and Greece threw off one-party rule and began to entrench democratic institutions during the 1970s. The prospect of EU membership acted as a powerful motor for change. In the 1990s, as the countries of the Balkan region and Central Europe emerged from the shadows of communism, the EU again drove a similar process.
We have created the largest single market in the world and a win-win situation for all EU-member states. Growth and living standards in the newest member states are blooming, while the old member states can enjoy a continued surplus in their trade balances with these countries. Three quarters of the investments in the new member states come from the older member states leading to production gains and increased competitiveness of European companies on the global market. Air pollution in the new member states has decreased 60-80 percent with clear environmental gains in neighboring countries. The challenges of cross-border crime, drug trafficking and climate change are topics that can be efficiently tackled on a European level.
In short, the virtues of past enlargements can hardly be questioned. But what about the future? Enlargement skepticism is said to be gaining ground in Europe. It is no secret that skepticism over enlargement is strongest regarding Turkey joining the EU. We argue -- on the contrary -- that Turkish membership would offer direct benefits to the people of Europe.
Europe will be more prosperous, more effective as a global player and more secure with Turkey as a member. A Turkey with a secular, democratic government will strengthen the EU with the addition of over 70 million people. Turkey's economy is one of the fastest growing in Europe; it is already a major market for European Union exporters. Turkey's geographical position is of vital strategic importance. The EU already depends on Turkey for cooperation against terrorism, drug trafficking, illegal migration and increasingly for the security of energy supplies to Europe.
And maybe most importantly, at a time when many of our citizens are worried about a so-called clash of civilizations, membership negotiations with Turkey provides reassurance that differing faiths can work together for a common goal. By binding our nearest and largest neighbor with a predominantly Muslim population, we build a wider circle of prosperous and stable democracies.
According to the latest Eurobarometer there is great support across Europe for the general arguments for enlargement. Sixty-two percent of the population says that enlargement is a good way to express European Union solidarity to candidate or potential candidate countries. Hence, the widely broadcasted message of enlargement skepticism seems somewhat exaggerated.
When we -- in view of the European Council in December -- discuss Turkey's relations to the EU, we should be clear about what is at stake. We all have an interest in the continued European modernization and reform of Turkey. It is no coincidence that Turkey's nearest neighbors in the EU -- Greece and Cyprus -- have been among the strongest supporters of this strategic imperative.
Both the European Union and Turkey have responsibilities they must fulfill regarding Cyprus. Turkey must open its airports and harbors to airplanes and ships from all member states including the Republic of Cyprus. The European Union on its part must honor the commitment it made in 2004 to end the isolation of the Turkish Cypriots. There is no formal link between these two tracks, but in the political reality they are interdependent.
Today's difficulties in these negotiations are a result of the failure in April 2004 to bridge the division of Cyprus. The so-called Annan-plan that had the explicit support of the EU was turned down in a referendum on the Greek Cypriot part of the island. However, the Turkish Cypriots, cheered on by Ankara, welcomed the plan. This was a brave step taken by the Turkish leadership.
In today's situation it is important to underline the importance of continued negotiations with Turkey -- in every way possible -- as well as renewed efforts to find a solution to the division of Cyprus under the auspices of the U.N. A reunification of the island can only be realized by bringing Turkey closer to Europe -- otherwise there is an apparent risk that the division becomes permanent.
The Finnish Presidency has done their utmost to find a solution that would enable the uninterrupted continuation of Turkey's accession process and improve the situation of both communities in Cyprus, but see, at present, no grounds for an agreement between the parties.
European leaders must now take their responsibility to overcome the current impasse. We need to give a constructive response that clearly states what each party has to do, but that does not deep freeze our relations with Turkey, nor close any doors to future enlargement. We must ensure that Turkey continues on its path towards further democratic reforms, prosperity and stability. In all other scenarios there is too much to lose for Turkey, for Cyprus and for the EU as a whole.
*Original version published in Die Welt, Dec. 5, 2006 Estonian version published in Postimees, Dec. 6, 2006

Is this guy ^ for real? :)


It is no coincidence that Turkey's nearest neighbors in the EU -- Greece and Cyprus -- have been among the strongest supporters of this strategic imperative.

Everyone knows why they're for Turkey's membership, at least the Turks do.

I wish they all took their masks off and speak the truth. The sooner the better for both sides.

[Vorian]

Everyone knows why they're for Turkey's membership, at least the Turks do.

I wish they all took their masks off and speak the truth. The sooner the better for both sides.

Greece wnts Turkey to enter to stop their aggressive extrnal policy. A mistake imo but we will see.

[exarmyguard]

Turkey is not European. Change the name to "politically expediant group of nations that kiss each others butts for economic gain". Maybe that can be abbreviated.

[Ergnkon]

Greece wnts Turkey to enter to stop their aggressive extrnal policy. A mistake imo but we will see.

Some thing doesn't sound right here though. When it's already decided that Turkey will never ever be a member of this union, then why put up such a "friendly" face? Can it be that Greece(and Cyprus) planning to gain on the disputes they have with Turkey while keeping its government on the endless accession period? I think this sounds more logical knowing (and hoping) that they'll never become a member at the end.

[turan8]

Greece wants to undercut the power of the Turkish military plain and simple so they know the Islamists are against the military also so now they're bed fellows.

[Vorian]

Some thing doesn't sound right here though. When it's already decided that Turkey will never ever be a member of this union, then why put up such a "friendly" face? Can it be that Greece(and Cyprus) planning to gain on the disputes they have with Turkey while keeping its government on the endless accession period? I think this sounds more logical knowing (and hoping) that they'll never become a member at the end.


It's called "clever diplomacy". It might turn out utterly stupid though. We will see.

[Doublethinker]

if the EU wants to become a powerhouse some day, it need not gather trojan horses within its borders. Turkey is one of the oldest and strongest US allies.

Would be really stupid to let them veto anything they want in the future. And there is NO recorded method of expulsion of a country from the EU. So its better to think twice if its such a good idea.

[Guerrier_Franc]

Turkey isn't an european Country

[Doublethinker]

Turkey isn't an european Country

A small fragment of it is in Europe.

[Thor]

I think most politicians at this level know that Turkey isn't going to be let in. The European Union isn't going to be turned into an Oriental Union, but it's all about keeping up appearances.

And Carl Bildt I believe is shooting for the position as President of the European Commission (when Barosso resigns).

[Ergnkon]

I think most politicians at this level know that Turkey isn't going to be let in.

Let's just hope they don't give in and stay on that course. EU+Turkey is a dangerous combination, especially for Turkey.

[Nansouty]

Well, as a European, allow me to have a different view. No way I'll accept to have Turkey, or any other emmber into the EU now. At least before we've managed to turn t into something efficient & manageable. Heck, I'ds even be happy to see a few countres break off and form up a hard core.

[daily666]

Well, as a European...

I'd say Turkey joinging the EU is not a good idea...for Turkey! I think this country is self- sufficient and well developed and deals with it's problems quite handy. What EU requires from Turkey can be deadly for it. Turkey has developed it's own political and judical system which, at this moment, cannot be accepted by most of socialist EU officials not to mention it's biggest opponents in EU (Austria and Germany IIRC). The ease in it's internal system just to keep up with the EU requirements, would, at the end, lead to increase of radical islamism (what can be seen).

For me, it's better for the Turks to follow their own way.

[Mahir]

well tbh EU will bring serious economical advantages to Turkey but still, Turkish ppl dont want to join the EU, and for the EU Turkey will bring serious jeopolitical advantages bt still, European ppl dont want Turkey to join the EU.
Both can live without each other for sure, but it may be better for two sides to find a common way. At that point both sides dont want to lose anything but gain something. Turkey wants EU without giving KKTC, EU wants turkey without giving southern part. EU waits for Turkey to step back, as a candidate. I am afraid ppl are trying to save the day by signing papers up to this point but it is over now,Turkey will never give KKTC and the EU will never say "KKTC", that's why Turkey will never join the EU. I hope best will happen for both sides.

[daily666]

well tbh EU will bring serious economical advantages to Turkey but still, Turkish ppl dont want to join the EU, and for the EU Turkey will bring serious jeopolitical advantages bt still, European ppl dont want Turkey to join the EU.
Both can live without each other for sure, but it may be better for two sides to find a common way. At that point both sides dont want to lose anything but gain something. Turkey wants EU without giving KKTC, EU wants turkey without giving southern part. EU waits for Turkey to step back, as a candidate. I am afraid ppl are trying to save the day by signing papers up to this point but it is over now,Turkey will never give KKTC and the EU will never say "KKTC", that's why Turkey will never join the EU. I hope best will happen for both sides.

yyyy, what's KKTC?

[Mahir]

Turkish Republic Of Northern Cyprus

[Ergnkon]

Well, as a European...

I'd say Turkey joinging the EU is not a good idea...for Turkey! I think this country is self- sufficient and well developed and deals with it's problems quite handy. What EU requires from Turkey can be deadly for it. Turkey has developed it's own political and judical system which, at this moment, cannot be accepted by most of socialist EU officials not to mention it's biggest opponents in EU (Austria and Germany IIRC). The ease in it's internal system just to keep up with the EU requirements, would, at the end, lead to increase of radical islamism (what can be seen).

For me, it's better for the Turks to follow their own way.

x2. Quoted for the truth. Every since this current government came to power,with their uncontitional "love" for the EU, Turkey has been weakened both internally and internationally. I bet the maj. of Turks looking forward to break off with the EU membership proccess asap.

[daily666]

Turkey should be like Norway, with strong economical relations with EU to ease the transfer of goods and services but politically it should stay away from it. I don't have a problem with that and so I think doen't have the majority in Europe.

[Ergnkon]

Turkey should be like Norway, with strong economical relations with EU to ease the transfer of goods and services but politically it should stay away from it. I don't have a problem with that and so I think doen't have the majority in Europe.

True, but Turkey is already in the "customs union" with the EU since 1996. Since it's been functioning against Turkey's benefit, it should be at least adjusted in the direction of fair trade.

[Clearday-TRForce]

There is every prospect that things will work steadily and effectively to make Turkey, in the fullness of time, a member of the European Union

- UK Foreign Secretary Margaret Beckett



In the future, every continent will have its union. South American Union is just forming in addition to European Union and African Union. Look at a map, Europe is the smallest continent. If Europe looses the chance of having Turkey as a member and Turkey seeks unity elsewhere, imagine how regretful EU will be. Just look at a map before talking. Turkey might not be completely in Europe geographically, but Cyprus isn't at all and Turkey still has more land in Europe than Cyprus does. Prejudices!

- Matthew Farrish, Albuquerque, NM, USA



It's funny that Turkey became an Asian country all of the sudden. Also Cyprus is in the middle of Europe, right!!! Common sense is a very unique gift that we humans have> So use a little bit of it. I really can't say much about the subject, because I do not live there. But I've been reading about these comments for a while. And I think people should say what they really think straight forward other than giving geographical(etc.) excuses.

the dude, Orlando, FL



I am really sick and tired of people bashing Turkey's human rights record without doing any research. I lived in Turkey for more than 10 years and its human rights record is not worse (if not better) than any other country in Europe or any state in the USA. Turkey's human rights record has been fast improving and they have taken great steps like abolishing the death penalty. I think the European Media works very hard to make the Turkish human rights record look much worse than it really is.

Kurt Olcer, New Jersey, USA




Turkey should not join because The EU is an arogant assembly of old arogant aristocratic states. And it looks like the EU dont want Turkey but want to show the world how they can bully other states like the US. Whay dont the EU pressure Cyprus do the same?

Hope Turkey one day send alle EU leadres out of Turkey back home. And Norway wot join in a long time. In your face EU haha

Sedad, Norway



Turkey made an immense contribution to world peace during the cold war and its contribution
will be even greater as a member of EU.
The present Greek administration of Cyprus was made a member of EU against the international
treaty of London/Zurich 1959-60. Without the concent of the guarantor powers; Cyprus can not join any economic,military or political union. and now as an illegal member The Greeks are blocking the entry of Turkey to EU. This
is a FARCE!!!

AVTEPE, Munich



Before the millennium, I was looking forward for Turkey to join because I as a Turk felt 'European'. But now, after decades of 'talks' I disregard everything I said. Turkey is such a massive country that it has the potential power to override Europeans economically and politically. Enough of these human rights 'talks' or 'Cyprus talks'. What kind of "UNION" accepts one half of a country when the political situation has not been resolved as yet. There are so many ignorant Europeans out there.

Aylin T, Toronto, Canada


:)

[Rune_X2]

Well as an European I think Turkey in the EU would be a good idea. At least the more more modern and secular western regions of Turkey. The eastern regions still seem awfully unready. Also it would still be decades off.

Islam in itself isn't a problem, just the way some people insist on practicing it. But Islam in Turkey is on the whole quite different from the murdering version they seem to favour in the Arab world. In fact there have been a whole lot more murdering islamofascist from the heartland of western Europe (France, Britain, Holland, Belgium, Denmark) than from Turkey.

Turkey is a proud nationalistic people. This also is no problem at all. We could do with some more national pride in Europe.

Re. Cyprus. Of course, it is inconceivable that a country can be member of an organization without recognizing all the existing members. But the blame rest at least partially with Greek Cyprus, who previously rejected a unification of the island.

[Thor]

There is every prospect that things will work steadily and effectively to make Turkey, in the fullness of time, a member of the European Union

- UK Foreign Secretary Margaret Beckett



In the future, every continent will have its union. South American Union is just forming in addition to European Union and African Union. Look at a map, Europe is the smallest continent. If Europe looses the chance of having Turkey as a member and Turkey seeks unity elsewhere, imagine how regretful EU will be. Just look at a map before talking. Turkey might not be completely in Europe geographically, but Cyprus isn't at all and Turkey still has more land in Europe than Cyprus does. Prejudices!

- Matthew Farrish, Albuquerque, NM, USA



It's funny that Turkey became an Asian country all of the sudden. Also Cyprus is in the middle of Europe, right!!! Common sense is a very unique gift that we humans have> So use a little bit of it. I really can't say much about the subject, because I do not live there. But I've been reading about these comments for a while. And I think people should say what they really think straight forward other than giving geographical(etc.) excuses.

the dude, Orlando, FL



I am really sick and tired of people bashing Turkey's human rights record without doing any research. I lived in Turkey for more than 10 years and its human rights record is not worse (if not better) than any other country in Europe or any state in the USA. Turkey's human rights record has been fast improving and they have taken great steps like abolishing the death penalty. I think the European Media works very hard to make the Turkish human rights record look much worse than it really is.

Kurt Olcer, New Jersey, USA




Turkey should not join because The EU is an arogant assembly of old arogant aristocratic states. And it looks like the EU dont want Turkey but want to show the world how they can bully other states like the US. Whay dont the EU pressure Cyprus do the same?

Hope Turkey one day send alle EU leadres out of Turkey back home. And Norway wot join in a long time. In your face EU haha

Sedad, Norway



Turkey made an immense contribution to world peace during the cold war and its contribution
will be even greater as a member of EU.
The present Greek administration of Cyprus was made a member of EU against the international
treaty of London/Zurich 1959-60. Without the concent of the guarantor powers; Cyprus can not join any economic,military or political union. and now as an illegal member The Greeks are blocking the entry of Turkey to EU. This
is a FARCE!!!

AVTEPE, Munich



Before the millennium, I was looking forward for Turkey to join because I as a Turk felt 'European'. But now, after decades of 'talks' I disregard everything I said. Turkey is such a massive country that it has the potential power to override Europeans economically and politically. Enough of these human rights 'talks' or 'Cyprus talks'. What kind of "UNION" accepts one half of a country when the political situation has not been resolved as yet. There are so many ignorant Europeans out there.

Aylin T, Toronto, Canada


:)

The blatant ignorance of some people is just.. scary. However, it's BBC and they single out the leftist/arab comments.


Yanks are free to set an example by letting Mexico into their union - but last time I checked they were starting to build a huge fence instead.


In the end these types of discussions just act to inflate the importance of Turkey. The worst thing for them would not be a blunt rejection, but being forgotten as just another cheap holiday resort.

[Clearday-TRForce]

The blatant ignorance of some people is just.. scary. However, it's BBC and they single out the leftist/arab comments.


Yanks are free to set an example by letting Mexico into their union - but last time I checked they were starting to build a huge fence instead.


In the end these types of discussions just act to inflate the importance of Turkey. The worst thing for them would not be a blunt rejection, but being forgotten as just another cheap holiday resort.



answer is coming from an outside view;

In the future, every continent will have its union. South American Union is just forming in addition to European Union and African Union. Look at a map, Europe is the smallest continent. If Europe looses the chance of having Turkey as a member and Turkey seeks unity elsewhere, imagine how regretful EU will be. Just look at a map before talking. Turkey might not be completely in Europe geographically, but Cyprus isn't at all and Turkey still has more land in Europe than Cyprus does. Prejudices!

- Matthew Farrish, Albuquerque, NM, USA

[Thor]

Yeah, why don't we all "look at the map". rofl

European Union:

Population: 450 million
GDP: $13.31 trillion

[eugenlitwin]

Turkey will never give KKTC and the EU will never say "KKTC", that's why Turkey will never join the EU. I hope best will happen for both sides.

we will see...

Yeah, why don't we all "look at the map". rofl

European Union:

Population: 450 million
GDP: $13.31 trillion

good point,
Yes and it´s with out Romania Ukraine Belarus Balkans Russia…

[Vorian]

In the future, every continent will have its union. South American Union is just forming in addition to European Union and African Union. Look at a map, Europe is the smallest continent. If Europe looses the chance of having Turkey as a member and Turkey seeks unity elsewhere, imagine how regretful EU will be. Just look at a map before talking. Turkey might not be completely in Europe geographically, but Cyprus isn't at all and Turkey still has more land in Europe than Cyprus does. Prejudices!

- Matthew Farrish, Albuquerque, NM, USA


People seem to forget that EU is not about geography only but also about culture and traditions. I don't mention religion cause most Europeans don't give a damn about it.

[Clearday-TRForce]

Yeah, why don't we all "look at the map". rofl

European Union:

Population: 450 million
GDP: $13.31 trillion

and Turkey in 2017-2020


Population: 100 million (EU population will be 400 million due age and unbirthless) It means...
GDP: over $1 trillion with huge impact...

:) p-)

[Vorian]

and Turkey in 2017-2020


Population: 100 million (EU population will be 400 million due age and unbirthless) It means...
GDP: over $1 trillion with huge impact...

:) p-)

What will the percentage of the Kurds be?? :):):)

[Clearday-TRForce]

What will the percentage of the Kurds be?? :):):)


20 million in the area. And Do you know Turkish population in the world? guess? over 200 ml? p-)

[Ergnkon]

The blatant ignorance of some people is just.. scary. However, it's BBC and they single out the leftist/arab comments.

Agreed. They should ilnclude more of the ignorant/xenophobic European comments which represents the majority, so the Turks don't get any false hopes reading those comments.


What will the percentage of the Kurds be??

By then, hopefully they alll be living a prosperous life in their new country called Kurdistan :)

[Clearday-TRForce]

Agreed. They should ilnclude more of the ignorant/xenophobic European comments which represents the majority, so the Turks don't get any false hopes reading those comments.



By then, hopefully they alll be living a prosperous life in their new country called Kurdistan :)


woot T A J I K I S T A N

[Vorian]

20 million in the area. And Do you know Turkish population in the world? guess? over 200 ml? p-)

Wow!!! 200 million? No kidding? How many of them actually give a damn about the Republic of Turkey? I mean, ok there are Turks from Anatolia to China, but relating them with Turkey(as a state) would be like relating Germany with Iran and India cause all of them have the same roots. Come on now.

PS: Some crazy greek nationalists in my country talk about 150 mil Greeks all over the world (lol :)). We are catching up, aren't we? p-)

[eugenlitwin]

20 million in the area. And Do you know Turkish population in the world? guess? over 200 ml? p-)

Kurds in Turkey

About half of all Kurds live in Turkey, and they account for between 15% to 30% of the total population of Turkey (numbering between 12 to 23 million). They are predominantly distributed in the southeastern corner of the country.
Population

Main article: Demographics of Kurdish people (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Kurdish_people)
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/2/2d/Kurdish_lands_92_cropped.jpg/250px-Kurdish_lands_92_cropped.jpg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Kurdish_lands_92_cropped.jpg) http://en.wikipedia.org/skins-1.5/common/images/magnify-clip.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Kurdish_lands_92_cropped.jpg)
Kurdish speaking areas


The exact number of Kurdish people living in the Middle East (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_East) is unknown, due to both an absence of recent census analysis and the reluctance of the various governments in Kurdish-inhabited regions to give accurate figures.
According to the CIA Factbook, Kurds comprise 20% of the population in Turkey (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkey), 15-20% in Iraq (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq), perhaps 8% in Syria (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syria),[34] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurd#_note-31) 7% in Iran (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran) and 1.3% in Armenia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenia). In all of these countries except Iran, Kurds form the second largest ethnic group. In other words roughly 55% of the world's Kurds live in Turkey, about 20% each in Iran and Iraq, and a bit over 5% in Syria.[35] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurd#_note-32)
There are other sources which report a higher population for Kurds than mentioned above. Furthermore it is estimated that Kurds especially in Turkey have a birth rate still higher than their main neighboring ethnic groups whose birth rate is slowly decreasing
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurd#Kurds_in_Turkey



I guess in 2050 they would be majority in turkey…and I don’t think it would be funny for some of you guysp-) …


Wow!!! 200 million? No kidding? How many of them actually give a damn about the Republic of Turkey? I mean, ok there are Turks from Anatolia to China, but relating them with Turkey(as a state) would be like relating Germany with Iran and India cause all of them have the same roots.

good point:)

[Ergnkon]

Wow!!! 200 million? No kidding? How many of them actually give a damn about the Republic of Turkey? I mean, ok there are Turks from Anatolia to China, but relating them with Turkey(as a state) would be like relating Germany with Iran and India cause all of them have the same roots. Come on now.

PS: Some crazy greek nationalists in my country talk about 150 mil Greeks all over the world (lol :)). We are catching up, aren't we? p-)

Turkey has a very good relations with the rest of the Turkic world. Pictures are from this years' (10. Annual Turkic World Assembly) and previous years' gatherings.

http://aafoto.anadoluajansi.com.tr/getFileServlet?sfx=2&arcId=563995
http://aafoto.anadoluajansi.com.tr/getFileServlet?sfx=2&arcId=563920
http://aafoto.anadoluajansi.com.tr/getFileServlet?sfx=2&arcId=490383
http://aafoto.anadoluajansi.com.tr/getFileServlet?sfx=2&arcId=488032
http://aafoto.anadoluajansi.com.tr/getFileServlet?sfx=2&arcId=422736
http://aafoto.anadoluajansi.com.tr/getFileServlet?sfx=2&arcId=213047
http://aafoto.anadoluajansi.com.tr/getFileServlet?sfx=2&arcId=277364
http://aafoto.anadoluajansi.com.tr/getFileServlet?sfx=2&arcId=277376
http://aafoto.anadoluajansi.com.tr/getFileServlet?sfx=2&arcId=277366
http://aafoto.anadoluajansi.com.tr/getFileServlet?sfx=2&arcId=478536
http://aafoto.anadoluajansi.com.tr/getFileServlet?sfx=2&arcId=101246
http://aafoto.anadoluajansi.com.tr/getFileServlet?sfx=2&arcId=158770
http://aafoto.anadoluajansi.com.tr/getFileServlet?sfx=2&arcId=149161

[Clearday-TRForce]

Kurds in Turkey

About half of all Kurds live in Turkey, and they account for between 15% to 30% of the total population of Turkey (numbering between 12 to 23 million). They are predominantly distributed in the southeastern corner of the country.
Population

Main article: Demographics of Kurdish people (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Kurdish_people)
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/2/2d/Kurdish_lands_92_cropped.jpg/250px-Kurdish_lands_92_cropped.jpg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Kurdish_lands_92_cropped.jpg) http://en.wikipedia.org/skins-1.5/common/images/magnify-clip.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Kurdish_lands_92_cropped.jpg)
Kurdish speaking areas


The exact number of Kurdish people living in the Middle East (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_East) is unknown, due to both an absence of recent census analysis and the reluctance of the various governments in Kurdish-inhabited regions to give accurate figures.
According to the CIA Factbook, Kurds comprise 20% of the population in Turkey (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkey), 15-20% in Iraq (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq), perhaps 8% in Syria (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syria),[34] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurd#_note-31) 7% in Iran (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran) and 1.3% in Armenia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenia). In all of these countries except Iran, Kurds form the second largest ethnic group. In other words roughly 55% of the world's Kurds live in Turkey, about 20% each in Iran and Iraq, and a bit over 5% in Syria.[35] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurd#_note-32)
There are other sources which report a higher population for Kurds than mentioned above. Furthermore it is estimated that Kurds especially in Turkey have a birth rate still higher than their main neighboring ethnic groups whose birth rate is slowly decreasing
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurd#Kurds_in_Turkey



I guess in 2050 they would be majority in turkey…and I don’t think it would be funny for some of you guysp-) …


Wow!!! 200 million? No kidding? How many of them actually give a damn about the Republic of Turkey? I mean, ok there are Turks from Anatolia to China, but relating them with Turkey(as a state) would be like relating Germany with Iran and India cause all of them have the same roots.

good point:)



Have you watched latest "ILLUSIONAL" film? :) But I must leave you in dreams...2050s...2100s...2200s...3000s woot

[eugenlitwin]

Have you watched latest "ILLUSIONAL" film? :) But I must leave you in dreams...2050s...2100s...2200s...3000s woot

Yes I have seen it :) , this is a plot of “ILLUSIONAL” film:
Place- Turkey in 2017-2020
Population: 100 million (EU population will be 400 million due age and unbirthless) It means...
GDP: over $1 trillion with huge impact...p-)

PS seriously did you complain so much about high Birth rate Kurds in Turkey

[Clearday-TRForce]

To: eugenlitwin :)





An Armenian pressure group criticized the European Union yesterday for basing its decision not to open eight out of the 35 negotiating chapters with Turkey only on a dispute over Cyprus.

It complained the EU ignored human rights issues and the controversy over the World War I-era killings of Armenians at the hands of the Ottoman Empire.

“The silence of the [EU] member countries on other Turkish violations is a lapse that seriously endangers European integration,” p-) said a statement from the European Armenian Federation for Justice and Democracy.

EU foreign ministers on Monday agreed not to open membership talks with Turkey in a number of areas ranging from fisheries to external relations in response to Ankara's failure to open its ports and airports to traffic under the customs union protocol it signed with the bloc.

Although the decision was a blow to Turkey's EU membership aspirations, the Brussels-based Armenian lobby group said it did not go far enough. It said the EU should have also punished Turkey for human rights violations, the mistreatment of minorities, a blockade of Armenia's border and a refusal to recognize the 1915-1919 killings of Armenians as genocide.

“The member states' decision has added to the existing confusion in relations with Turkey,” said the group's president, Hilda Tchoboian.


-AP



woot wagonists...same headlines...I hope they will stay what they do now. It will prevent him to think wisely.




Yes I have seen it , this is a plot of “ILLUSIONAL” film:
Place- Turkey in 2017-2020
Population: 100 million (EU population will be 400 million due age and unbirthless) It means...
GDP: over $1 trillion with huge impact...

PS seriously did you complain so much about high Birth rate Kurds in Turkey


Nope, you want to say Turkish Kurds? :lol: I hope they will continue to birth but it is impossible when economy grows up like now.It is a social thing.

[eugenlitwin]

To: eugenlitwin :)







woot wagonists...same headlines...I hope they will stay what they do now. It will prevent him to think wisely.






Nope, you want to say Turkish Kurds? :lol: I hope they will continue to birth but it is impossible when economy grows up like now.It is a social thing.

Man just gave them rights similar with Catalonians or Scots have, and they would be turkish kurds, and good citizens of Turkish republic…anyway sooner or later they would get it, turkey just to close to Europe…

[Clearday-TRForce]

Man just gave them rights similar with Catalonians or Scots have, and they would be turkish kurds, and good citizens of Turkish republic…anyway sooner or later they would get it, turkey just to close to Europe…



Mate, you have got minimal information. Turkey hasnt got ethnical policy. Kurds or others are not important for modern Turkey. Turkish Kurds have all rights what others have in laws,in social life. Stop talking bs things that you dont know.

[Vorian]

Mate, you have got minimal information. Turkey hasnt got ethnical policy. Kurds or others are not important for modern Turkey. Turkish Kurds have all rights what others have in laws,in social life. Stop talking bs things that you dont know.

Excuse me Clearday but wasn't Kurdish language forbidden not long ago?


Modern Turkey's founder, Mustafa Kemal (better known as Atatürk--"father of the Turks"), enacted a constitution 70 years ago which denied the existence of distinct cultural sub-groups in Turkey. As a result, any expression by the Kurds (as well as other minorities in Turkey) of unique ethnic identity has been harshly repressed. For example, until 1991, the use of the Kurdish language--although widespread--was illegal. To this day, any talk that hints of Kurdish nationalism is deemed separatism, and grounds for imprisonment.

The Turkish government has consistently thwarted attempts by the Kurds to organize politically. Kurdish political parties are shut down one after another, and party members are harassed and imprisoned for "crimes of opinion." Most famously, in 1994 Leyla Zana--who, three years prior, had been the first Kurdish woman elected to the Turkish parliament--was sentenced to 15 years for "separatist speech." Her party was banned. More recently, in June the leaders of the pro-Kurdish People's Democracy Party (HADEP) were sentenced to several-year prison terms for allegedly having ties with the outlawed PKK guerillas. The state prosecutors' evidence consisted largely of press releases found in the HADEP offices from a news agency close to the PKK.

Adding to the grievances of Turkey's Kurds is the economic underdevelopment of the southeast. The Ankara government has systematically withheld resources from the Kurdish region. As a result, there are two distinct Turkeys: the northern and western regions are highly developed and cosmopolitan, part of the "first world," while the south and east are truly of the "third world."

www.fas.org

Maybe something is wrong with me but I can't see how they have the same rights with everyone else.

[eugenlitwin]

Mate, you have got minimal information. Turkey hasnt got ethnical policy. Kurds or others are not important for modern Turkey. Turkish Kurds have all rights what others have in laws,in social life. Stop talking bs things that you dont know.


No dude i´m disagree with you totally, you acting like a person who has a exclusive information, which we majority of human being who are livening outside your almost perfect county couldn’t know!

Show me the facts that Kurds in turkey have more rights (get education on mother tong, territorial autonomy, independents religious institutions etc) than Basque, or Catalan, Welsh people, etc and I sand you my grandmother diamantes…


In October the prosecutor initiated a case to close down permanently the Diyarbak¹r Kurdish Assocation (Kürd-Der) on various counts, including the decision to adopt a “non-Turkish” spelling of the word Kurdish in the association’s name and statute, and provisions in the association’s statute defending the right to Kurdish-language education. The association had previously been warned to adjust the disputed elements in its statute and name.

http://web.amnesty.org/report2006/tur-summary-eng (http://web.amnesty.org/report2006/tur-summary-eng)
Turkey: Anti-Terror Law Used Against Peaceful Activists

Turkey’s Reform Process at Risk as Three Kurdish Activists Go on Trial

(New York, June 7, 2006) – The trial tomorrow of three Kurdish activists on anti-terrorism charges after they attempted to stage a peaceful protest near the Iraq border calls into question the Turkish leadership’s commitment to human rights reforms, Human Rights Watch said today in a letter (http://hrw.org/english/docs/2006/06/07/turkey13519.htm) to Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdoğan.
http://hrw.org/english/docs/2006/06/07/turkey13521.htm (http://hrw.org/english/docs/2006/06/07/turkey13521.htm)

[eugenlitwin]

Declaration on the Rights of Persons Belonging to National or Ethnic, Religious and Linguistic Minorities

Adopted by General Assembly resolution 47/135 of 18 December 1992
The General Assembly ,
Reaffirming that one of the basic aims of the United Nations, as proclaimed in the Charter, is to promote and encourage respect for human rights and for fundamental freedoms for all, without distinction as to race, ***, language or religion,
Reaffirming faith in fundamental human rights, in the dignity and worth of the human person, in the equal rights of men and women and of nations large and small,
Desiring to promote the realization of the principles contained in the Charter, the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide, the International Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination, the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, the International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights, the Declaration on the Elimination of All Forms of Intolerance and of Discrimination Based on Religion or Belief, and the Convention on the Rights of the Child, as well as other relevant international instruments that have been adopted at the universal or regional level and those concluded between individual States Members of the United Nations,
Inspired by the provisions of article 27 of the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights concerning the rights of persons belonging to ethnic, religious and linguistic minorities,
Considering that the promotion and protection of the rights of persons belonging to national or ethnic, religious and linguistic minorities contribute to the political and social stability of States in which they live,
Emphasizing that the constant promotion and realization of the rights of persons belonging to national or ethnic, religious and linguistic minorities, as an integral part of the development of society as a whole and within a democratic framework based on the rule of law, would contribute to the strengthening of friendship and cooperation among peoples and States,
Considering that the United Nations has an important role to play regarding the protection of minorities,
Bearing in mind the work done so far within the United Nations system, in particular by the Commission on Human Rights, the Sub-Commission on Prevention of Discrimination and Protection of Minorities and the bodies established pursuant to the International Covenants on Human Rights and other relevant international human rights instruments in promoting and protecting the rights of persons belonging to national or ethnic, religious and linguistic minorities,
Taking into account the important work which is done by intergovernmental and non-governmental organizations in protecting minorities and in promoting and protecting the rights of persons belonging to national or ethnic, religious and linguistic minorities,
Recognizing the need to ensure even more effective implementation of international human rights instruments with regard to the rights of persons belonging to national or ethnic, religious and linguistic minorities,
Proclaims this Declaration on the Rights of Persons Belonging to National or Ethnic, Religious and Linguistic Minorities:

Article 1
1. States shall protect the existence and the national or ethnic, cultural, religious and linguistic identity of minorities within their respective territories and shall encourage conditions for the promotion of that identity.
2. States shall adopt appropriate legislative and other measures to achieve those ends.
Article 2
1. Persons belonging to national or ethnic, religious and linguistic minorities (hereinafter referred to as persons belonging to minorities) have the right to enjoy their own culture, to profess and practise their own religion, and to use their own language, in private and in public, freely and without interference or any form of discrimination.
2. Persons belonging to minorities have the right to participate effectively in cultural, religious, social, economic and public life.
3. Persons belonging to minorities have the right to participate effectively in decisions on the national and, where appropriate, regional level concerning the minority to which they belong or the regions in which they live, in a manner not incompatible with national legislation.
4. Persons belonging to minorities have the right to establish and maintain their own associations.
5. Persons belonging to minorities have the right to establish and maintain, without any discrimination, free and peaceful contacts with other members of their group and with persons belonging to other minorities, as well as contacts across frontiers with citizens of other States to whom they are related by national or ethnic, religious or linguistic ties.
Article 3
1. Persons belonging to minorities may exercise their rights, including those set forth in the present Declaration, individually as well as in community with other members of their group, without any discrimination.
2. No disadvantage shall result for any person belonging to a minority as the consequence of the exercise or non-exercise of the rights set forth in the present Declaration.
Article 4
1. States shall take measures where required to ensure that persons belonging to minorities may exercise fully and effectively all their human rights and fundamental freedoms without any discrimination and in full equality before the law.
2. States shall take measures to create favourable conditions to enable persons belonging to minorities to express their characteristics and to develop their culture, language, religion, traditions and customs, except where specific practices are in violation of national law and contrary to international standards.
3. States should take appropriate measures so that, wherever possible, persons belonging to minorities may have adequate opportunities to learn their mother tongue or to have instruction in their mother tongue.
4. States should, where appropriate, take measures in the field of education, in order to encourage knowledge of the history, traditions, language and culture of the minorities existing within their territory. Persons belonging to minorities should have adequate opportunities to gain knowledge of the society as a whole.
5. States should consider appropriate measures so that persons belonging to minorities may participate fully in the economic progress and development in their country.
Article 5
1. National policies and programmes shall be planned and implemented with due regard for the legitimate interests of persons belonging to minorities.
2. Programmes of cooperation and assistance among States should be planned and implemented with due regard for the legitimate interests of persons belonging to minorities.
Article 6
States should cooperate on questions relating to persons belonging to minorities, inter alia , exchanging information and experiences, in order to promote mutual understanding and confidence.
Article 7
States should cooperate in order to promote respect for the rights set forth in the present Declaration.
Article 8
1. Nothing in the present Declaration shall prevent the fulfilment of international obligations of States in relation to persons belonging to minorities. In particular, States shall fulfil in good faith the obligations and commitments they have assumed under international treaties and agreements to which they are parties.
2. The exercise of the rights set forth in the present Declaration shall not prejudice the enjoyment by all persons of universally recognized human rights and fundamental freedoms.
3. Measures taken by States to ensure the effective enjoyment of the rights set forth in the present Declaration shall not prima facie be considered contrary to the principle of equality contained in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.
4. Nothing in the present Declaration may be construed as permitting any activity contrary to the purposes and principles of the United Nations, including sovereign equality, territorial integrity and political independence of States.
Article 9
The specialized agencies and other organizations of the United Nations system shall contribute to the full realization of the rights and principles set forth in the present Declaration, within their respective fields of competence.

[kosse]

I hear we (Finland) are shipping in 500 refugees from Turkey before the year ends to meet UNHCR requirements. And this is EU membership candidate - or at least was :|

[Mahir]

Excuse me Clearday but wasn't Kurdish language forbidden not long ago?


You can use whatever language you choose in Turkey, in social life. But you can not use any other language than Turkish while you are in an offical place, which means you can not use English, Kurdish, Arabic or other ones. It is not only Kurdish is forbidden. If you are a citizen of Turkey you have to use Turkish in your offical business, otherwise GL finding a new country.

[Jobu]

Why Turkey and EU must get closer to each other

Plate tectonics

[Ergnkon]

I hear we (Finland) are shipping in 500 refugees from Turkey before the year ends to meet UNHCR requirements. And this is EU membership candidate - or at least was

Hopefully WAS :)


Excuse me Clearday but wasn't Kurdish language forbidden not long ago?

www.fas.org

Maybe something is wrong with me but I can't see how they have the same rights with everyone else.

Your're correct and as you put it, it was forbidden (although only in the official platforms) it was and it isn't now...and Turkey is not a EU member.

On the other hand (to be fair in our criticism on Turkey) there are countries in EU still punishes their ethic minorities for speaking their language and get away with this.

News

It's not Greek enough to them

Updated: 13 July 2001

Cultural minorities in Greece tread carefully when talk of language and art strays into the realm of cultural identity. For Greek nationalists and conservatives will not allow such talk, as Sotiris Bletsas has discovered to his cost.

On 19 September an Athens court will hear an appeal against a jail sentence handed down Greek Aromanian (Vlach) language activist Sotiris Bletsas earlier this year. His 'crime' - to be caught distributing an EU document that describes his fellow Aromanians as a Greek minority - in 1995

http://72.14.235.104/search?q=cache:0aN_mMiQDPoJ:www.vlachophiles.net/index_on_censorship.htm+greek+site:http://www.vlachophiles.net/index_on_censorship.htm&hl=en&gl=au&ct=clnk&cd=1

There are countries in the EU even deniy the existence of their minorities, thre are even countries in EU(and will become a member in a few weeks) doesn't even grant citizenship to their minorities.

http://www.policy.lv/index.php?id=102395&lang=en

and Romani's situation in Romania (to be a member in a few weeks)
http://www.ceeol.com/aspx/getdocument.aspx?logid=5&id=0C357298-2DF2-4B21-ADB1-1F03A6A4C80E

Now, I acknowledge Turkey is not perfect and not even a EU member. I also know a bad exampel can't be an example but if you want to be taken serious in your critisms, you should acknowledge the situation in the already EU member and will be a member despite of the wrong doings they have. Otherwise, your attitude will be interpreted as personal isue (if not ignorance) towards Turkey.


In October the prosecutor initiated a case to close down permanently the Diyarbak¹r Kurdish Assocation (Kürd-Der) on various counts, including the decision to adopt a “non-Turkish” spelling of the word Kurdish in the association’s name and statute, and provisions in the association’s statute defending the right to Kurdish-language education. The association had previously been warned to adjust the disputed elements in its statute and name.

Since the Kurd.Der leaders was a political spokepersons of the Kurdish terror organization PKK (http://www.washingtoninstitute.org/templateC05.php?CID=2413), Turks just used the Spaniards' closing down of Batasuna (ETA's political wing) as an example.

Batasuna (Unity), the left-wing pro-independence political formation outlawed by the Spanish Supreme Court on March 17th 2003, was officially founded in Iruñea on June 23rd 2001.

http://www.gara.net/dosierrak/euskalgatazka/ileg_batasuna/plazos_eng.htm

http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Tower/1252/comments/etan.html


PS seriously did you complain so much about high Birth rate Kurds in Turkey

That's true, but there are lots of them there where you are also and unless you're one of them, you got a lot more to worry about than the Turks. I hear they enjoy the Social state welfare and the symphathy (for being a Kurd) from the public so much that they continue their tradition of multiplying as much as they can over there too. If you consider the native Swedes' negative population growth, they'll take over Sweden much earler than Turkey. :)

ABDUL KADIR SUMER, the head man of Saridal village, near Diyarbakir, is a man with a mission—to go forth and multiply. At 60, he has two wives, 13 children and, he says, more grandchildren than he can count. I have a duty to increase the Kurdish population, Mr Sumer explains.…

http://www.economist.com/displayStory.cfm?story_id=5328042

[eugenlitwin]

At 60, he has two wives, 13 children and, he says, more grandchildren than he can count. I have a duty to increase the Kurdish population, Mr Sumer explains.…

Is it still possible has 2 wives in turkey?

[Ergnkon]

At 60, he has two wives, 13 children and, he says, more grandchildren than he can count. I have a duty to increase the Kurdish population, Mr Sumer explains.…

Is it still possible has 2 wives in turkey?

No and it's illegal (just like the honor killings)...but Kurds simply cannot be controlled and when attemped, they scream for "human rights" for these issues too.

The hidden wives of Turkey

Polygamy is illegal in Turkey, but in practice it is allowed to continue. In remote areas like this, Turkey risks antagonising Kurdish separatists by intervening in tradition and customs.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/this_world/4165896.stm

[eugenlitwin]

No and it's illegal (just like the honor killings)...but Kurds simply cannot be controlled and when attemped, they scream for "human rights" for these issues too.

The hidden wives of Turkey

Polygamy is illegal in Turkey, but in practice it is allowed to continue. In remote areas like this, Turkey risks antagonising Kurdish separatists by intervening in tradition and customs.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/this_world/4165896.stm


That’s why oppression is not good…, allowed to them self transform traditional society

[Vorian]

Cultural minorities in Greece tread carefully when talk of language and art strays into the realm of cultural identity. For Greek nationalists and conservatives will not allow such talk, as Sotiris Bletsas has discovered to his cost.

On 19 September an Athens court will hear an appeal against a jail sentence handed down Greek Aromanian (Vlach) language activist Sotiris Bletsas earlier this year. His 'crime' - to be caught distributing an EU document that describes his fellow Aromanians as a Greek minority - in 1995


LOL. Where do you find these?
I found the site from which you found this. http://www.vlachophiles.net/index_on_censorship.htm

Vlachophiles??? Come on now. What's next Vlach independence?? hahaha. Do you even know what a Vlach is? (Don't post some idiotic source again I want your personal opinion)
I hadn't even heard of that Bletsas but i did a little research. First of all, he was found not guilty and released. Second he was accused of 'alse information on minority languages in Greece' and of 'causing disorder in the small greek town Nausa'. That's all.
Third, Vlachs in Greece number a little less than 40,000 and most of them speak both languages. We have more Pakistani illegals than Vlachs for God's shake.
Do you compare the Kurdish problem with this?
Even, more he was accused because he was sued by a ultra-right wing lunatic politician-wanabe and most articles I found were against this and openly mocked him.

pwned.

[Ergnkon]

That’s why oppression is not good…, allowed to them self transform traditional society

hmmm...so their hundreds of years old backwards die-hard traditions are alo Turkish officials fault. :)

No problem, thanks for your valuable input anyways. ;)

Btw, how do they behave in Sweden, where they have it just like they want? does it help? did they stop killing their females yet? ;)


LOL. Where do you find these?
I found the site from which you found this. http://www.vlachophiles.net/index_on_censorship.htm

Vlachophiles??? Come on now. What's next Vlach independence?? hahaha. Do you even know what a Vlach is? (Don't post some idiotic source again I want your personal opinion)
I hadn't even heard of that Bletsas but i did a little research. First of all, he was found not guilty and released. Second he was accused of 'alse information on minority languages in Greece' and of 'causing disorder in the small greek town Nausa'. That's all.
Third, Vlachs in Greece number a little less than 40,000 and most of them speak both languages. We have more Pakistani illegals than Vlachs for God's shake.
Do you compare the Kurdish problem with this?
Even, more he was accused because he was sued by a ultra-right wing lunatic politician-wanabe and most articles I found were against this and openly mocked him.

pwned.


Actually, no need to panic or get childish on this. We're just exchanging information and hope we can keep it civil.

Of course I'm not compering to the Kurdish issue in Turkey and it would be dumb to do so. First of all, the minorities in Greece has a better capabilities to integrate with the Greek society than the Kurds do in Turkey, despite of the some disadvanteges they have as a minority. Turkey's is not perfect (some ways far from perfect) and they're aware of their short comings. I'm afraid we cannot say the same about the EU member Greece though.

Since you didn't like the previous information I've provided, I did some more looking about te matter. You can pick and choose.

-Turkish Minority Rights Violated in Greece
-Greece: The Turks of Western Thrace
-Human Rights Watch /Helsinki Calls on the Greek Government to Drop Charges Against Activists of the Ethnic Macedonian Rainbow Party.
-The Macedonians of Greece
-Denying Ethnic Identity:The Macedonians of Greece
-Free Speech on Trial: Government Stifles Dissent on Macedonia

ah...here is some good news that came last year.

-Greece: Improvements for Turkish Minority
Problems Remain

but then again;

-Destroying Ethnic Identity
The Turks of Greece

The Turks of Greece
The policy of the Greek government with regard to the Turkish minority seems to be, as described by the Minority Rights Group, a "deliberate policy of discrimination with a long-term aim of assimilation." The findings of the Helsinki Watch mission certainly confirm this analysis. The many abuses of human rights documented in this report reveal a pattern of denying the Turkish minority the rights granted to other Greek citizens; the pattern includes outright deprivation of citizenship; denials of the right to buy land or houses, to set up businesses or to rebuild or repair Turkish schools; restrictions on freedom of expression, movement and religion; and degrading treatment of ethnic Turks by government officials.


http://hrw.org/doc?t=europe&c=greece&document_limit=20,20

I'm sure many of the EU member country nationals here will not see any problems with the situation since it happens in a member country, but in my humle opinion, it's still a human rights violations which should not happen in a long time EU member country...not like this anyways, I mean an extremist actions can be understood up to certain level, but not when it's a government policy.

Let's keep it civil and the personal atacks out of this OK? :)

[eugenlitwin]

LOL. Where do you find these?
I found the site from which you found this. http://www.vlachophiles.net/index_on_censorship.htm

Vlachophiles??? Come on now. What's next Vlach independence?? hahaha. Do you even know what a Vlach is? (Don't post some idiotic source again I want your personal opinion)
I hadn't even heard of that Bletsas but i did a little research. First of all, he was found not guilty and released. Second he was accused of 'alse information on minority languages in Greece' and of 'causing disorder in the small greek town Nausa'. That's all.
Third, Vlachs in Greece number a little less than 40,000 and most of them speak both languages. We have more Pakistani illegals than Vlachs for God's shake.
Do you compare the Kurdish problem with this?
Even, more he was accused because he was sued by a ultra-right wing lunatic politician-wanabe and most articles I found were against this and openly mocked him.

pwned.

Vlachs, Slavic Macedonians have a problem in Greece this a fact, Poland has a law - place where minority groups 25% and up, has to have school with this minority language, and language should use everywhere on local level.

But one for sure Kurdish problem 100 bigger, 30 million people without homeland sound very dangerous …

[Vorian]

There are indeed some Slavic people in the northen parts of greece, but there are not many problems. Of course, their language isn't taught in schools but on the other hand we are talking about very few people and frankly Greek politicians don't care much about a group of people unless it brings many votes. And those Vlachs etc are too few for the big parties to care.


Oh, Ergnok about the Turkish minority thing? Before discussing aouit how Greece "brutally opresses" those poor people we should discuss why the muslim, (not all of them are Turks,or consider themselves to be) minority in Thrace continues to exist and flourish but the Greek minority in Constantinople (Instabul whatever), is decreasing.

[Ergnkon]

There are indeed some Slavic people in the northen parts of greece, but there are not many problems. Of course, their language isn't taught in schools but on the other hand we are talking about very few people and frankly Greek politicians don't care much about a group of people unless it brings many votes. And those Vlachs etc are too few for the big parties to care.

Although ethnic Macedonians in northern Greece make up a large minority with their own language and culture, their internationally-recognized human rights and even their existence are vigorously denied by the Greek government. Free expression is restricted; several Macedonians have been prosecuted and convicted for the peaceful expression of their views. Moreover, ethnic Macedonians are discriminated against by the government's failure to permit the teaching of the Macedonian language. And ethnic Macedonians, particularly rights activists, are harassed by the government — followed and threatened by security forces — and subjected to economic and social pressures resulting from this harassment. All of these actions have led to a marked climate of fear in which a large number of ethnic Macedonians are reluctant to assert their Macedonian identity or to express their views openly.

Fearing that the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia has designs on its northern region (also named Macedonia), the government of Greece has limited freedom of expression through an intensive campaign that combines propaganda and a series of extraordinary criminal prosecutions for dissenters. This report summarizes the criminal prosecutions and finds disturbing violations of freedom of expression rights granted by international law.

http://hrw.org/doc?t=europe&c=greece&document_limit=20,20


Oh, Ergnok about the Turkish minority thing? Before discussing aouit how Greece "brutally opresses" those poor people we should discuss why the muslim, (not all of them are Turks,or consider themselves to be) minority in Thrace continues to exist and flourish but the Greek minority in Constantinople (Instabul whatever), is decreasing.

Yeah, yeah, but that's Turkey. They're not "civilized" enough to be a EU member and hopefully they'll never be. But your country is a "civilized" member of the "civilized" EU. How does all that above happens without any consequences??...that's the question I'm sure people like to have a answer for.

[Clearday-TRForce]

There are indeed some Slavic people in the northen parts of greece, but there are not many problems. Of course, their language isn't taught in schools but on the other hand we are talking about very few people and frankly Greek politicians don't care much about a group of people unless it brings many votes. And those Vlachs etc are too few for the big parties to care.


Oh, Ergnok about the Turkish minority thing? Before discussing aouit how Greece "brutally opresses" those poor people we should discuss why the muslim, (not all of them are Turks,or consider themselves to be) minority in Thrace continues to exist and flourish but the Greek minority in Constantinople (Instabul whatever), is decreasing.


It shows your soul when you continuesly use Constan bla bla. It was an ancient name man...Get up, and wash your face...There is only one city, it is ISTANBUL. No start to say like this;

I S T A N B U L
our goodness...
our paradise...
I S T A N B U L...

Why dont you call other EU cities with their ancient names? :) lol man...really lol...


Greek minority in Istanbul...Where? I live in here since 1977...I have never seen a Greek, you mean Tourist Greeks...Ohh you welcome...Should I go to the Sultanahmet or Ciragan or Yerebatan or .... :lol:

[Clearday-TRForce]

Yeah, yeah, but that's Turkey. They're not "civilized" enough to be a EU member and hopefully they'll never be. But your country is a "civilized" member of the "civilized" EU. How does all that above happens without any consequences??...that's the question I'm sure people like to have a answer for.



:lol: well said brother. Could you ask them when they give up their cunda regime and joined EU? 1980s-90s... Some ones must show them Turkey is a democracy since 1920s. It is the first county to give their women vote/other rights than Greeks...and others in the EU. If you want to talk about civilization, please put it here real facts with sense instead of accusing others while you dont have.

[eugenlitwin]

There are indeed some Slavic people in the northen parts of greece, but there are not many problems. Of course, their language isn't taught in schools but on the other hand we are talking about very few people and frankly Greek politicians don't care much about a group of people unless it brings many votes. And those Vlachs etc are too few for the big parties to care.


Oh, Ergnok about the Turkish minority thing? Before discussing aouit how Greece "brutally opresses" those poor people we should discuss why the muslim, (not all of them are Turks,or consider themselves to be) minority in Thrace continues to exist and flourish but the Greek minority in Constantinople (Instabul whatever), is decreasing.


dude why Of course, their language isn't taught in schools?

It would make your country even more bountiful, tourists would go crazy…

[Vorian]

dude why Of course, their language isn't taught in schools?

Even though it's a little off topic....don't think of me as a racist. It's just that Greece doesn't even spend enough money to have proper teachers, teach Greek in schools. Beurocracy and stupidity rules in the governments (or maybe we are stupid to vote them anyway). Perhaps if we weren't forced to invest so much money in the military we would have better education and everyone would be happy.

[Amateur]

Greek minority in Istanbul...Where? I live in here since 1977...I have never seen a Greek, you mean Tourist Greeks...Ohh you welcome...Should I go to the Sultanahmet or Ciragan or Yerebatan or .... :lol:

Of course there is practically no Greek left. That's because Turkey drove them away, particularly with the pogrom of 1955. However, there were 200.000 Greeks left in Turkey under the provisions of the Lausanne treaty; now there are only 20.000. (comparison: 100.000 muslims stayed in Greece, also under the Lausanne treaty. Now they are 120.000, alive and well)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greeks_in_Turkey

But I understand your ignorance. I guess because you live there only since 1977 and no one in Turkey is allowed to speak about the dirty past, you don't know what happened to the Greeks of Constantinople in 1955. So read about it if you really don't know:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Istanbul_Pogrom

and then go on making jokes, if you can. But I would make no jokes if I were you; I would be ashamed of my country if they had done this... And you can be sure that attitude won't get Turkey closer to the EU, which happens to be the subject of this thread, as I remember...

[Clearday-TRForce]

Of course there is practically no Greek left. That's because Turkey drove them away, particularly with the pogrom of 1955. However, there were 200.000 Greeks left in Turkey under the provisions of the Lausanne treaty; now there are only 20.000. (comparison: 100.000 muslims stayed in Greece, also under the Lausanne treaty. Now they are 120.000, alive and well)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greeks_in_Turkey

But I understand your ignorance. I guess because you live there only since 1977 and no one in Turkey is allowed to speak about the dirty past, you don't know what happened to the Greeks of Constantinople in 1955. So read about it if you really don't know:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Istanbul_Pogrom

and then go on making jokes, if you can. But I would make no jokes if I were you; I would be ashamed of my country if they had done this... And you can be sure that attitude won't get Turkey closer to the EU, which happens to be the subject of this thread, as I remember...


Ohh give your bs comment to recycle bin. I am very proud of being a Turk. No doubt. Your one-sided,biased view is well known by the others. I think your opinions in extereme points. No need to be ashamed being a Greek or Turk or anything else.

get rest, take a drink. p-)

[Maskirovka]

Ohh give your bs comment to recycle bin. I am very proud of being a Turk. No doubt. Your one-sided,biased view is well known by the others. I think your opinions in extereme points. No need to be ashamed being a Greek or Turk or anything else.

get rest, take a drink. p-)

His views are facts, and the views of all the western civilized world. The rest of the world know this, except some medieval muslim-countries. Thats why Turkey will never be a EU-member, they are not, have never been and will never be a civilized country... Get some rest, take a drink, be stoned to death...

[Clearday-TRForce]

His views are facts, and the views of all the western civilized world. The rest of the world know this, except some medieval muslim-countries. Thats why Turkey will never be a EU-member, they are not, have never been and will never be a civilized country... Get some rest, take a drink, be stoned to death...

Who will never civilized? We are already modern county...Is it a new news for you? Hehehe you found it at last. woot

Ah you, as a latest updated bandwagonist should learn, Turkey is not only European, it is not Asian. It is between the worlds. And it is extremely unique with this situation. I know you cant imagine it.

[magic_flight]

is it true that Turks are Mongolians?

why do they want to get in the Europe anywayz?

:|

[Clearday-TRForce]

is it true that Turks are Mongolians?

why do they want to get in the Europe anywayz?

:|



:cantbeli: (In the history, Turks and Mongols live together in the same geography in far east lands) There are still over 100 millions Turkish people living in China,Mongolia and asia lands.


Kazakhs, Turkmen, Krigiz, Uyghurs, Tuvans, Kipchack,Yakutias,Altays, etc (Turkish branchs)...in Mongolia.There are close relations but not fully same.


-Altaic words "Otuken", Mongolian word "Utigin." The archaic Turkish word "OtUken" is frequently mentioned as the name of a "divine or sacred place" in Turkish epic writings of "Kul Tigin."
-Sea is "TENGIS"in Mongolian. Turkish word for Sea is "DENIZ"?
-A lot of old/ancient words and phrases that people use about lifestyle and whatnot are now pretty archaic, but a lot of those ancient words/phases probably have a lot of similarities with Turkic ones as Turkic and Mongol tribes had very close associations...

[magic_flight]

:cantbeli: (In the history, Turks and Mongols live together in the same geography in far east lands) There are still over 100 millions Turkish people living in China,Mongolia and asia lands.

soooo...

Since the Turks come from Mongolia what do they have to do with Europe? :-(

[Maskirovka]

Who will never civilized?
Turkey...


We are already modern county...
Compared to what? Somalia? Or the western world a´la 1885?



Ah you, as a latest updated bandwagonist should learn, Turkey is not only European, it is not Asian. It is between the worlds. And it is extremely unique with this situation. I know you cant imagine it.

No, to an european Turkey is not europe. It´s a muslim 3rd country with a lot of Bin Laden lunatics who will never be a part of the civilized world. We don´t want to imagine the poverty and dictatorship you live in and we will never let you join us in the rest of the free, rich, democratic civilized world... We don´t want you and the majority of you want to keep living in medieval times, it´s as simple as that....

[Vorian]

No, to an european Turkey is not europe. It´s a muslim 3rd country with a lot of Bin Laden lunatics who will never be a part of the civilized world. We don´t want to imagine the poverty and dictatorship you live in and we will never let you join us in the rest of the free, rich, democratic civilized world... We don´t want you and the majority of you want to keep living in medieval times, it´s as simple as that....
Actually Turkey is a civilised and modern country. At least in the west. The eastern provinces are practically third-world due to the fact that Kurds leave there and Turkish government just ignores them.
Of course it deals with some problems, such as the influence of the army in politics or a few Islamic lunatics. It also has serious problems with its minorities and freedom of speech. These are exactly the problems EU wants solved and the reason the hardcore part of Turkish society is against the union.