Moscow hospital fire kills dozens

[daily666]

Moscow hospital fire kills dozens
http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/img/v3/bbc_logo.gif
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6163835.stm


A fire at a Moscow drug rehabilitation hospital has killed 45 women, most of them young addicts.

Officials say they are "90% certain" that arson caused the blaze at Moscow's Hospital 17, in the south-west of the city, early on Saturday morning.

All appeared to have died of smoke asphyxiation even before the first firefighters reached the building.

Recommendations earlier this year to close the hospital on fire safety grounds were reportedly ignored.

Fire safety officers visited the hospital in February and March, and called for its temporary closure after their second visit, said Russia's chief fire inspector Yuri Nenashev.

"Unfortunately this decision was not adopted," said Mr Nenashev.

Firefighters rescued 160 people from the building, and 10 are being treated in hospital for carbon monoxide poisoning. Moscow's chief fire inspector said their lives remained in the balance.

Forty-two people died at the scene, with others dying later in hospital. Two staff are among the dead.

'Windows barred'

The hospital had been slow to raise the alarm after the fire broke out in a second-floor cafeteria, said a spokesman for the Moscow fire brigade.

"Secondly, the hospital personnel worked very badly, they did not take steps to evacuate people in the early stages of the fire," said Yevgeny Bobylyov, the Associated Press news agency reported.

However, there were suggestions that staff had been overcome so rapidly by smoke that they had been incapable of taking action.

The walls were reportedly covered with plastic, making the fumes especially hazardous.

A further problem was the lack of exits.

"It was a very particular building with five storeys and only one exit and bars on the windows because it was a drug treatment hospital," said Irina Andrianova, a spokeswoman for Russia's Emergencies Ministry.

"Judging by the placement of the bodies, they really tried to get out," said Alexander Chupriyanov, the deputy emergency situations minister.

"Everyone who died as a result of this fire, died before the first fire engines came, and those were at the site four minutes after the call," he told Russia's Itar-Tass news agency.

Signs of arson

More than 20 fire engines were sent to the site, where they battled the flames and smoke for an hour before bringing the blaze under control.

"The fire was relatively small, only 100 square metres. But there was very thick smoke, and people got poisoned by smoke in their sleep," one rescue official told Itar-Tass.

Fire inspector Yuri Nenashev said that he was "90%" sure the fire was started deliberately.

"No technical means such as heaters, wires or such were found... there was only a wooden shelf, which was the fire's centre, and that indicates arson," he said.

Russia records about 18,000 fire deaths a year, the Associated Press reports, 10 times higher than in the US.

Last December seven people died in a fire at an institute for the mentally ill near Moscow.

And in 2003 36 students died and some 170 were hurt at a hostel for foreign students.

RIP :(

[TR1]

thats terrible.
RIP.

[Paul in Saudi2]

Horrible. God bless firefighters.

[dimasorokine]

RIP...

This kind of crap pisses me off, there are way too many trageties like this coming out of Russia and in my opinion they claime way too many lives if you compare them to simular fires in western nations.

I'm just scared to see how many people will freeze to death in Moscow once the really cold weather starts - last year nearly 300 froze to death in 2 months.

-Dima

[evanfitz]

:oops: RIP, terrible news

[daily666]

RIP...

This kind of crap pisses me off, there are way too many trageties like this coming out of Russia and in my opinion they claime way too many lives if you compare them to simular fires in western nations.

I'm just scared to see how many people will freeze to death in Moscow once the really cold weather starts - last year nearly 300 froze to death in 2 months.

-Dima

My friends who live and work in Moscow I've heard that "life" is very cheap there. Some of the stories they brought are terrifying.

[Elemental666]

Rest In Peace.
Horrible horrible news.

[Flamming_Python]

My friends who live and work in Moscow I've heard that "life" is very cheap there. Some of the stories they brought are terrifying.

It's a huge city where no-one gives a damn about each other...

Safety standards should really be increased. They are a major reason for the horrendous amount of casualties.

RIP

[daily666]

It's a huge city where no-one gives a damn about each other...

Safety standards should really be increased. They are a major reason for the horrendous amount of casualties.

RIP

Yes, it's this sort of things. They say the worst thing you can do is to go to the public hospital.

Again, RIP for the victims. :(

[Noble713]

RIP


Russia records about 18,000 fire deaths a year, the Associated Press reports, 10 times higher than in the US.

That's just ridiculous. Putin needs to spend some of those oil revenues on improving healthcare and overall safety. Doesn't Russia have a huge "piggy bank" of foreign reserves?


They say the worst thing you can do is to go to the public hospital.

I guess I should count my blessings then; I went to a public hospital in Komsomolsk-na-Amur. I DID end up losing my digital camera with ALL of my pictures though....:-(

[Chounch McGavin]

Horrible. God bless firefighters.
I'm sorry but I couldn't help but laugh at your statement.

It isn't the firefighters who need your or God's blessing, it was the people whom were burned alive.

[Flamming_Python]

RIP



That's just ridiculous. Putin needs to spend some of those oil revenues on improving healthcare and overall safety. Doesn't Russia have a huge "piggy bank" of foreign reserves?


AFAIK Healthcare is one of the national priorities, with a massive amount of money being pumped into it by the state. But this project only started a year or so ago, so it'll be a while before we see results.

In addition, there are still plenty of problems with corruption. A hospital director might for example choose to "pocket" a good chunk of the money given for his hospital's development, and then bribe safety agencies in order to leave his hospital alone. Thus in many cases this is a local problem that cannot be that easily fixed, until disaster happens like it has here. And of course, the fact that this sort of thing may still be happening in Moscow, doesn't bode well for poorer regions i.e. The rest of Russia.

Also taking into account that many of these fires are caused by arson. Perhaps by various extermist groups that operate in Russia. So the problem also cuts into society, and again, is not so easily solved by just putting more money into fire & safety standards.

Pumping money directly from the foreign reserves will increase inflation, and will lead to economic problems, so it is just kept aside for "a rainy day", and is invested gradually.

Deaths in Russia happen on a huge scale. Always have, and probably always will :(

[Alan]

Stuff like this pisses me off.

More money into our god damned health care please Volodya, thank you. And as for any freakin official who decides to pocket anything, public execution the most brutal way imaginable and damn to hell what the west says.

Maybe some lives will finally get better.

I mean, for ****s sake, how long can crap like this last, huh??? When is it finally going to be good??? I want Russia to be good again dammit!

[Mr.K]

It's PUTIN AND THE KGB AGAIN!!!

[sir-chimp]

dont worry your safe in canada

[Alan]

dont worry your safe in canada


Ah yes, that good'ol argument.

Yes, yes I am. Good for you chimpie, here's a banana. Should I call Jane Goodall and ask her to scratch your back, or would you prefer to swing on a tire for a while?

You see, regardless of my location, and disregarding the fact that I nearly died in a "splendid" Canadian hospital five months ago because it took the oh-so-wonderfull system eight hours to get to me while I lay in pain[grand ain't it, and they misdiagnosed me too], I do by the way happen to have quite a number of relatives living in moscow. Including but not limited to, my aging, fairly frail, though so far in good health grandparents.

So unless your snide, but sorefully unintelligent comment somehow ensured the safety of my elders, I kindly suggest that you henceforth limit yourdelf to the occasional grunts while picking tics from your fur.

Thank you.

[sir-chimp]

I only eat green bananas as I like the crunchy texture

[Alan]

Cutting the crap-banter for a split-second.

It's interesting enough that most primates do indeed prefer unripe bananas.

More interestingly so, that gorillas don't eat them at all.

Anyways. RIP to the dead. This is upsetting. Been to moscow hospitals on almost 20 different occasions[I got hurt a lot]. They're not the best, but I personally don't share the horrible opinion of them most people do.

Service was good, food was descent[not haute-cuisine, but consumed fine, and that was back in the frikkin nineties].

Although I won't exclude the possibility that children's hospitals were better supplied.

Now a truly awful hospital, rats bats and all, Gelendjik. AWFUL!

[dimasorokine]

I'm glad the Russians here agree with me on the low standard Russia has set for public safety and the reletive cheapness of life in the country...

The death totals out of Russia are Just mindblowing and are simular to those of third world countries. I mean we all know Russia has a very high crime rate and is a pretty violent country (35,000 - 40,000 homicides a year) - and I can understand that. But some sh*t is just insane!

18,000 fire deaths a year? 40,000 alchohol poisoining deaths a year? Thousands of people freezing to death?

Whats amazing about these numbers is that the US with a population more than twice than that of Russia has numbers in the hundreds in the same categories, not tens of thousands.

Makes the whole "Terrorist threat" look a little wimpy to me.

-Dima

[dimasorokine]

Oh and Alan,

Which city were you in with your bad Canadian hospital experience, I had a few myself.

-Dima

[Henry's Fork]

Horrible. God bless firefighters.

X2 RIP :-(

[Wodan]

I'm glad the Russians here agree with me on the low standard Russia has set for public safety and the reletive cheapness of life in the country...

The death totals out of Russia are Just mindblowing and are simular to those of third world countries. I mean we all know Russia has a very high crime rate and is a pretty violent country (35,000 - 40,000 homicides a year) - and I can understand that. But some sh*t is just insane!

18,000 fire deaths a year? 40,000 alchohol poisoining deaths a year? Thousands of people freezing to death?

Whats amazing about these numbers is that the US with a population more than twice than that of Russia has numbers in the hundreds in the same categories, not tens of thousands.

Makes the whole "Terrorist threat" look a little wimpy to me.

-Dima

Germany only has 82.5 million people, and we also have 40,000 alcohol deaths each year...

(but those who die in an accident drunken or die by alcoholic cirrhosis are included)

And who knows if american numbers are made the same way as those in russia and in germany?

Btw. RIP to those drug junkys

[daily666]

more bad news:

Eight dead in Russia clinic blaze
http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/img/v3/bbc_logo.gif
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6165889.stm


A fire at a mental hospital in Siberia has killed eight people less than a day after 45 people died in a fire at a Moscow clinic for drug addicts.

The latest incident occurred in the town of Taiga in the province of Kemerovo, Russian news agencies said without giving further details.

A third fire also broke out at a sanatorium in Tver, a province north of Moscow, but nobody was hurt.

One Russian media report says the Tver facility is for mentally ill children.

"The fire started in the psycho-neurological clinic in the town of Taiga," an emergency ministry spokesman said.

"Eight people were killed, six were injured as a result of the fire," according to preliminary details, he added.

The AFP news agency reported officials saying that the fire burnt its way through 1,200 sq m of the hospital roof (1,435 sq yds) and much of the second floor.

Some 235 people were in the building when the fire broke out, officials said, including about 15 staff.

Moscow safety fears

The Siberian fire was the second fatal blaze of a grim weekend for Russia's hospitals. A suspected arson attack on a Moscow drug treatment hospital killed 45 women on Friday night.

The fire was relatively small but those inside the hospital were unable to reach the exits or escape through barred windows.

Fears had previously been raised over safety in the Moscow hospital, but were not acted upon, officials said.

Fire safety officers visited the hospital in February and March and called for its temporary closure after their second visit, said Russia's chief fire inspector, Yuri Nenashev.

"Unfortunately this decision was not adopted," he added.

No escape

The fire, which broke out about 0140 (2240 GMT) in a kitchen, produced very heavy smoke, possibly from burning plastic wall coverings, reports said. "Everyone who died in this fire, was dead before the first fire engines arrived," said Deputy Emergencies Minister Alexander Chupriyan.

Mr Chupriyan said there was evidence of a desperate struggle by patients to escape: "Judging by the placement of the bodies, they really tried to get out." He added that crews had responded to an emergency call in just four minutes.

In daylight, relatives and friends of the dead women, who included patients infected with Aids/HIV, could be seen weeping outside the building on Bolotnikovskaya Street.

Others accused hospital staff of failing to act quickly enough to save patients' lives.

However there were suggestions that staff had been overcome so rapidly by smoke that they had been incapable of taking action.

Televised footage shows scorched, peeling corridor walls inside the building and beds and personal effects covered in black ash in a room which looked otherwise undamaged.

Russia records about 18,000 fire deaths a year, AP reports - 10 times more than in the US.

Last December seven people died in a fire at an institute for the mentally ill near Moscow.

And in 2003, 36 students died and some 170 were hurt at a hostel for foreign students.

[dimasorokine]

Germany only has 82.5 million people, and we also have 40,000 alcohol deaths each year...

(but those who die in an accident drunken or die by alcoholic cirrhosis are included)

And who knows if american numbers are made the same way as those in russia and in germany?

Btw. RIP to those drug junkys

If you include accidents into the 40,000 alchohol deaths in Russia each year the figure would easily reach 500,000 or more.

The point I am trying to make is that 40,000 Russians die every year because they drink way too much and die of alchohol poisoning NOT accidental falls, fights etc.

The alchohol poisoning statistics are made the same way in Germany and the United States.

-Dima

[dimasorokine]

more bad news:

Eight dead in Russia clinic blaze
http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/img/v3/bbc_logo.gif
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6165889.stm

This is horrible, RIP again to the victims of all these avoidable trageties...

Glad to hear no one was hurt in Tver, my home town.

-Dima

[Steve Andrews]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul in Saudi2 http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?p=2144655#post2144655)
Horrible. God bless firefighters.



X2 RIP :-(


X3. a ****ty job for those (underpaid) Russian guys.

[variable]

My first thought was like: "Two hospitals in two days and the primary witnesses in the Litvinenko case are located in hospitals in russia, too. Connection?"

RIP to the victims...

[Kap2406]

This is horrible, RIP again to the victims of all these avoidable trageties...

Glad to hear no one was hurt in Tver, my home town.

-Dima
Dude!!! You are from Tver?:hug: Where from exactly? I am from Migalovo:) That is my hometown as well

[Flamming_Python]

I'm glad the Russians here agree with me on the low standard Russia has set for public safety and the reletive cheapness of life in the country...

The death totals out of Russia are Just mindblowing and are simular to those of third world countries. I mean we all know Russia has a very high crime rate and is a pretty violent country (35,000 - 40,000 homicides a year) - and I can understand that. But some sh*t is just insane!

18,000 fire deaths a year? 40,000 alchohol poisoining deaths a year? Thousands of people freezing to death?

Whats amazing about these numbers is that the US with a population more than twice than that of Russia has numbers in the hundreds in the same categories, not tens of thousands.

Makes the whole "Terrorist threat" look a little wimpy to me.

-Dima

Well of course we agree. We spend all our time trying to prove that Russia is not a dictatorship, etc... to people that don't know any better.

But things like this are the REAL problems of Russia, and the real issues that must be focussed on.

[tyovan]

Was it like this in the USSR as well?? (thousands freezing to death, drinking self to death, lax safety standards, etc)

[Doublethinker]

****ing ****hole.

No wonder us, Russians, are diminishing in numbers by the thousands with each year.

I remember some guy caught a huge fire in Vladivostok on video camera. People were jumping out of windows, trying to escape from fire - some died in the fire, others suffocated and the rest crashed against concrete ground.

And what did the firemen do first when they arrived?

They evacuated bank managers in the OTHER part of the building which was nowhere near fire.

[Switek]

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/42334000/jpg/_42334789_ladder_afp_220.jpg

Firefighters arrived at a Moscow drug clinic within minutes of getting an overnight emergency call.
http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/42334000/jpg/_42334783_firemen_afp_416.jpg

They evacuated Hospital 17, in the south-west of the city, but were unable to help 45 people, already dead.
http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/42334000/jpg/_42334777_bodies_afp_220.jpg

The all-women victims on the second floor of the clinic, which treats drug addicts, had been overcome by smoke.
http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/42334000/jpg/_42334779_corridor_ntvafp_416.jpg

The victims were trapped between the fire at one end of their corridor and a locked gate at the exit at the other end.
http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/42334000/jpg/_42334785_gathering_ap_416.jpg

With daylight, people who knew the victims began coming to the hospital.
http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/42334000/jpg/_42334787_horror_afp_416.jpg

As the full horror of the fire dawned, people wept openly among the emergency vehicles.
http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/42334000/jpg/_42334781_distraught_ap_416.jpg

Psychologists from the emergencies ministry tried to comfort the bereaved.
http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/42334000/jpg/_42334775_oldwoman_ap_416.jpg

Many of the victims were women below the age of 35 being treated for addiction.
http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/42334000/jpg/_42334773_mancries_ap_416.jpg

It was one of the worst fires in years to hit Moscow

BBC (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_pictures/6165261.stm)

[Doublethinker]

Well of course we agree. We spend all our time trying to prove that Russia is not a dictatorship, etc... to people that don't know any better.


Of course Russia isn't a dictatorship.
Russia is an oligopoly run by several clans of bureaucrats, oligarchs, army and state security bigwigs.



But things like this are the REAL problems of Russia, and the real issues that must be focussed on.

Things like this repeat every year. That goes to show that the population and the government are still in living in seperate realities - the houses THEY live in, don't burn. The hospital THEY get treated at, never even suffer from lack of medicine and low wages of staff, leave alone poor fire safety measures.

[Doublethinker]

Urgh... the photo of the five-storeyed building brings up some recent memories.

I've been sent by the bosses in my military enlistment office (enlistment is compulsory here, if someone doesn't know) to a hospital for an examination.

I remember entering the neurological unit... Holy crap, the stench of ****, piss and food was disgusting. When I told my friend about this experience, she said that she herself was being treated in a neurological unit of a her local hospital and that at night she felt cockroaches crawling over her.

[daily666]

Of course Russia isn't a dictatorship.
Russia is an oligopoly run by several clans of bureaucrats, oligarchs, army and state security bigwigs.

Jesus, you're the first Russian here since I've started reading MP.net, to state something like this!


Things like this repeat every year. That goes to show that the population and the government are still in living in seperate realities - the houses THEY live in, don't burn. The hospital THEY get treated at, never even suffer from lack of medicine and low wages of staff, leave alone poor fire safety measures.

This is exactly what my friends from Moscow are saying. Always go to private hospital, never to public. The luckiest you get in the public hospital is "just" hepatitis-C.



I remember entering the neurological unit... Holy crap, the stench of ****, piss and food was disgusting. When I told my friend about this experience, she said that she herself was being treated in a neurological unit of a her local hospital and that at night she felt cockroaches crawling over her.

So you actually live in Russia?

[Alan]

Oh and Alan,

Which city were you in with your bad Canadian hospital experience, I had a few myself.

-Dima

Windsor.

I'll quote the jews on this.. "Never again!"

[gandon]

Free healthcare sucks!

R.I.P

[Doublethinker]

Jesus, you're the first Russian here since I've started reading MP.net, to state something like this!


Oh well, people who hold similar opinions to mine are usually considered to be liberasts (a combination of the words "liberal" and "fa*got"), freaks or declassified elements by the zombie-like majority of the Russia strong!!1 clan.



This is exactly what my friends from Moscow are saying. Always go to private hospital, never to public. The luckiest you get in the public hospital is "just" hepatitis-C.


Exactly. But the thing is, only public hospitals are allowed to examine and prepare an opinion about a draftee's health.




So you actually live in Russia?

Yep. Born and still living in Moscow.

[dimasorokine]

Dude!!! You are from Tver?:hug: Where from exactly? I am from Migalovo:) That is my hometown as well

Cool :) - I'm from Tver city in the Tver region, my father now lives in Litvinki Tver.

Here's the building I grew up in, in Tver:



-Dima

[dimasorokine]

Well of course we agree. We spend all our time trying to prove that Russia is not a dictatorship, etc... to people that don't know any better.

But things like this are the REAL problems of Russia, and the real issues that must be focussed on.

Nice to hear and well said - I just had a few guys give me a hard time before.

-Dima

[dimasorokine]

Was it like this in the USSR as well?? (thousands freezing to death, drinking self to death, lax safety standards, etc)

No, not as bad as the last 15 years. There were always a high number of Alchohol poisoning deaths a year, but nowhere near as much as there are now - and only drunks would freeze to death (from passing out in the cold) in the Soviet times.

And as far as homicide rates go, they were pretty much identical to the US in the cold war period.

-Dima

[Flamming_Python]

Of course Russia isn't a dictatorship.
Russia is an oligopoly run by several clans of bureaucrats, oligarchs, army and state security bigwigs.


Don't forget the jews, commies and imperialists :roll:

Actually you may have a point. But what matters is not who is in power, but what they achieve for their population. So far, so much better than Yeltsin :D



Oh well, people who hold similar opinions to mine are usually considered to be liberasts (a combination of the words "liberal" and "fa*got"), freaks or declassified elements by the zombie-like majority of the Russia strong!!1 clan.

Right... But didn't you express your opinions in an earlier thread about introducing capital punishment for alchohol brewing and getting rid of all the 'allahakbar' dudes?

Doesn't sound like 'liberast' to me. Seems you really are a 'Doublethinker' rofl

Sort out what you stand for. In the meantime, stop confusing all the naive Polish p-)

[Doublethinker]

Don't forget the jews, commies and imperialists :roll:

Actually you may have a point. But what matters is not who is in power, but what they achieve for their population. So far, so much better than Yeltsin :D


Jews aren't a problem, more like a lack thereof is. We still have the same soviet-style bureaucrats in power. These guys are a much more destructive force by an measure ;)

Who was Yeltsin? Who was Chernomyrdin? Who is Putin? Soviet functioneries. Have you read the book "Anatomy of the Soviet Power"? It gives a clear inside view of how the behind-the-curtain struggles for influence were carried out in the Soviet times after Stalin's death and forced retirement of Khruschev, when the country was run not by a leader but by soviet bureaucracy.

And this book allows to get some deeper understanding of the processes in Kremlin right now. Same ****, new day.


As for "doing better than Yeltsin" - I really don't see any difference, except that the oil prices have risen thus allowing Putin to start a chain of stupid irresponsible actions at home and abroad.
The only thing that could be really attributed to him as a sucess of his rule would be pacifying Chechnya - but right now we have Kadyrov in charge, who has even more power than Maskhadov ever had. So what was all this fighting for?



Right... But didn't you express your opinions in an earlier thread about introducing capital punishment for alchohol brewing and getting rid of all the 'allahakbar' dudes?

Doesn't sound like 'liberast' to me. Seems you really are a 'Doublethinker' rofl

Sort out what you stand for. In the meantime, stop confusing all the naive Polish p-)

I'm a nationalist democrat. Like Pim Fortyne. And I believe in harsh measures when necessary, like many democrats do.

[Flamming_Python]

Jews aren't a problem, more like a lack thereof is. We still have the same soviet-style bureaucrats in power. These guys are a much more destructive force by an measure ;)

Who was Yeltsin? Who was Chernomyrdin? Who is Putin? Soviet functioneries. Have you read the book "Anatomy of the Soviet Power"? It gives a clear inside view of how the behind-the-curtain struggles for influence were carried out in the Soviet times after Stalin's death and forced retirement of Khruschev, when the country was run not by a leader but by soviet bureaucracy.

And this book allows to get some deeper understanding of the processes in Kremlin right now. Same ****, new day.


I guess you missed my sarcasm in my first sentance.

I am intrigued though. What would you suggest as a course for Russia?

My opinion, the high oil prices helped Putin no doubt and fueled the revival of Russia's economy, but unlike many other oil-rich countries in the middle east, Putin has set out ambitious projects which have helped to sustain growth and has played his cards quite wisely in the international arena. So far, there is much investment into key Russian cities like Moscow, and the investment appears to be spreading into less significant regions.

So far, Putin has started to address every single problem there is, from the decaying infastructure to the declining population. The key areas in which he has little success so far is in reforming the army (he has improved it's firepower, but the conditions for soldiers are still terrible in many cases). He has also delayed action against the increasing nationalist sentiment in Russia. Only now is he starting to clamp down on fascist movements, but the foundations of those movements may now be too strong so as to get rid off easily.

[DIU]

Russia is an oligopoly run by several clans of bureaucrats, oligarchs, army and state security bigwigs.
This is a commonplace which is not disputed in the most "patriotic" Russian forums. The real questions are different: who is to blame for this, how the situation can be changed, what are the real goals of each force involved in the process.

The important difference between “the patriots” and “the liberasts” is that the latter believe that the West is interested in democracy and prosperity in Russia. In reply, “the patriots” finger at 1990s, at various underdeveloped or degraded “banana republics”, and underline that the power of oligarchy and bureaucracy in the dependent countries completely suits the West and supported by the West, if they are ready to accept the supreme control of the Western bureaucracy and international corporations over the own economy and politics.

Accordingly, “the liberasts”, who believe in the benefiting West, are sure that if they bend over and accept all rules and requirements imposed by the West, they will be accepted automatically in the so-called “golden billion” or “civilized world”, and become rich, developed and prosperous, i.e. equal to the new masters.

On the contrary, “the patriots”, who believe that the West is an old spider who first injects the sweet liberastic poison and then sucks the blood, are sure that only independent development and standing upon the own rights, interests and property against any external force, even if the hard and exhausting struggle is required, can bring success.

[Flamming_Python]

Russia seems to be stuck between a rock and a hard place. We have to choose either the rock, or the hard place.

Doublethinker, blaming everyone is right in someways, as everyone is to blame, and everyone, Putin and Ivanov included, probably takes more than their slice of the pie. But really, you can say that about nearly every single politician in existance, including the ones in the West.

So now it's time to decide, what do you want for Russia Doublethinker? For us to conform to Western standards, or for us to forge our own path? Which will give Russians fruitfull living standards and conditions in the end?

DIU has pretty much explained all that needs to be explained. As for me though, I think a balanced policy should be in order. Don't antagonise the West, instead co-operate with them, but make it clear that we don't take orders from that part of the world.

[Smersh]

If being an ally with 'the west' means subordination then Russia will not take that path.

and I think it does.

[Doublethinker]

I guess you missed my sarcasm in my first sentance.


Probably.



I am intrigued though. What would you suggest as a course for Russia?


Full reconstruction of the state.
1. 1937-style forced retirement of 90% of military leaders. A new state needs a new army, not a dying and decaying version of an old one. Bolsheviks understood that and did accordingly, using only the most able as consultants and teachers.
2. All functioneries of Soviet epoch must be forbidden from holding an office.
3. Trial of all guilty of murder of Dudayev and ignition of the First Chechen war including Stepashin, Grachev, etc.
4. Liberalization of restrictions in Chechnya. Beginning negotiations with Chechen government in exile. Removal of Kadyrov from power by any means necessary. Granting Chechnya the rights equal to that of Tatarstan "independent republic within the Russian Federation" as an option.
5. Stoping any aid for selfproclaimed government of Transnistria, Ossetia, Abkhazia.
6. Building democracy from grassroots. Empowering the regional democratical institutes, lowering decentralization. Break down of "senatorship" institute.
7. Using best economists like Gaidar to work out a new course, most profitable in the long-term for current high oil-prices like investing in infrastructure and R&D.
8. Decentralization of mass-media.
9. Passing the law which allows soil to be bought and sold. Creation of strong farmerships via relaxed taxes, lower prices on gas for agricultural vehicles, etc.
10. Wasting the hostile stance towards the West. Cooperating with the US and the EU on Iraq and Iran.
11. The right to keep and bear arms.
And so on and so forth.



My opinion, the high oil prices helped Putin no doubt and fueled the revival of Russia's economy, but unlike many other oil-rich countries in the middle east, Putin has set out ambitious projects which have helped to sustain growth and has played his cards quite wisely in the international arena. So far, there is much investment into key Russian cities like Moscow, and the investment appears to be spreading into less significant regions.


No, its not. Its the same as under Yeltsin. 5-10 cities control 90% of economy.
As for "ambitious projects"... Don't even get me started on this one. Anyoone still remembers the project to double Russian GNP?



So far, Putin has started to address every single problem there is, from the decaying infastructure to the declining population. The key areas in which he has little success so far is in reforming the army (he has improved it's firepower, but the conditions for soldiers are still terrible in many cases). He has also delayed action against the increasing nationalist sentiment in Russia. Only now is he starting to clamp down on fascist movements, but the foundations of those movements may now be too strong so as to get rid off easily.

He has little success in all the areas he has addressed. Poor healthcare, high taxes, low economical initiative of the population, high crime rate, low birthrate, terrible breath-taking corruption.

Army is beyond any help already. Thank god nobody in the west is planning to attack us.

As for the "fascists", its just another trick to started a witch hunt after the opposition leaders. Or maybe even remain in power when the election term is over.

[Flamming_Python]

Full reconstruction of the state.
1. 1937-style forced retirement of 90% of military leaders. A new state needs a new army, not a dying and decaying version of an old one. Bolsheviks understood that and did accordingly, using only the most able as consultants and teachers.
2. All functioneries of Soviet epoch must be forbidden from holding an office.
3. Trial of all guilty of murder of Dudayev and ignition of the First Chechen war including Stepashin, Grachev, etc.
4. Liberalization of restrictions in Chechnya. Beginning negotiations with Chechen government in exile. Removal of Kadyrov from power by any means necessary. Granting Chechnya the rights equal to that of Tatarstan "independent republic within the Russian Federation" as an option.
5. Stoping any aid for selfproclaimed government of Transnistria, Ossetia, Abkhazia.
6. Building democracy from grassroots. Empowering the regional democratical institutes, lowering decentralization. Break down of "senatorship" institute.
7. Using best economists like Gaidar to work out a new course, most profitable in the long-term for current high oil-prices like investing in infrastructure and R&D.
8. Decentralization of mass-media.
9. Passing the law which allows soil to be bought and sold. Creation of strong farmerships via relaxed taxes, lower prices on gas for agricultural vehicles, etc.
10. Wasting the hostile stance towards the West. Cooperating with the US and the EU on Iraq and Iran.
11. The right to keep and bear arms.
And so on and so forth.


My your a cynical one aren't you... :D

1. I'm with you, Russia has far too many generals, that much is true. Something like 2000 when we only need 200. However, such a move will require a lot of centralisation, and crushing of discontent. After all, how are the generals likely to react when they are told that nearly all of them are fired?

2. And who will hold an office? So far most MP's in Russia are only in office to represent some big business interest. That is not going to change any time soon, and the generation of politicians that grew up during the sunset of the USSR so to speak, are likely to be even more corrupt than the old commie buerocrats turned democrats.

3. Dudayev certainly did plenty of his own killings. Like killings of any Russians who refused to flee from Grozny, as well as torture and killings of many Chechens who opposed him. He deserved to die. However, we do need to instigate more criminal investigations (in addition to the current ones) against many Russian army personel and officers who are suspected of war crimes. It's a hell of a long list though, I would suspect.

4. The Chechen government in-exile also commited a hell of a lot of war-crimes. Not to mention, they will never agree for anything short of full independence for Chechnya with a fundamentalist Islamic twist. And even then there is far from any gurantee that they won't support Islamists in Daghestan, Nagarno-Karbach, etc... When they are independent.

5. Do that, and loads of wars will suddenly start on Russia's borders. Wars that will spill out into Russia itself.

6. Break down de-centralisation, and we are back to square one with business interests gaining increased control over politics, and many radical movements gaining momentum.

7. German Gref is doing a good job from what I hear. Infastructure is a national priority as of last year, with plenty of money going into it. IT as well is being heavily invested into. As for R&D, most of the money is already going into precisely that AFAIK, at least in terms of military tech. For commercial and space tech, I don't know the details. Excessive state investment, however, will increase inflation (it's already high enough). Are you talking about free-market investment?

8. Read my point 6. Russian media was previously owned by a bunch of oligarchs who used it to further their interests. Perhaps dedicated corporations can be set-up, outside of state control (something like the BBC for example), but that sort of thing takes time.

9. Agriculture is also a national priority, and is gaining huge subsidies. Many sectors of it are rising, but some like Beef and possibly Pork production are still falling. The Russian government is trying to solve this problem via state investment and protectionism against the agricultural markets of Eastern Europe, the Americas, etc... For now, it is simply too much of an unprofitable and technologically backward industry in Russia to survive under the free-market, as you propose. But your suggestions are commendable, and should be implemented a bit later perhaps when the industry is back up to scratch.

10. There is no particular hostile attitude towards the West. The EU is Russia's largest trading partner, and I would personally like to see further integration and development of relations. But it is clear, that we often have conflicts of interest, and that we should look out for ourselves rather than relying on them. After all, their intentions towards us are quite ambigous, and there exist plenty of examples of them profitting at our expense during the 90's for instance (read about the PSA's, and about Anglo-American natural resource interests in the Caspian and Caucauses regions). Not that the West are bad guys or anything, but Russia would benefit more with an independent policy, as we are not Poland, but a much larger country with far more borders and national interests & riches that could be exploited. As for Iran, the differences between Russia and the West are more tactical, than strategic. i.e. We agree that Iran having nukes is a bad thing, but we have different approaches in how to deal with this situation. We don't want another North Korea, after all...

11. Oh yeah, great idea with Russia's already huge crime rate.

Over all, some of your suggestions are commendable, but you paint too simple a picture of how Russia works and how it should work.



No, its not. Its the same as under Yeltsin. 5-10 cities control 90% of economy.
As for "ambitious projects"... Don't even get me started on this one. Anyoone still remembers the project to double Russian GNP?

Yep that aim was a little too ambitious. But right now, stable and fast economic growth is forecast, even assuming very low global gas and oil prices over the coming year.

But the idea of the national projects for Housing, Infastructure, Agriculture, etc... Is quite good. There are loads of moves to centralise the decaying industries under state-owned companies, etc... It sounds a little authoritarian, granted, but under the current circumstances, it's our best chances at using oil & gas revenues to pump life back into dying industries and people's standards of living.




He has little success in all the areas he has addressed. Poor healthcare, high taxes, low economical initiative of the population, high crime rate, low birthrate, terrible breath-taking corruption.

Army is beyond any help already. Thank god nobody in the west is planning to attack us.

As for the "fascists", its just another trick to started a witch hunt after the opposition leaders. Or maybe even remain in power when the election term is over.

Putin spent his 1st term and some of his 2nd, centralising power at the expense of the old occupiers of the Kremlin. Now he's more or less done that, and is rapidly laying out the foundations for re-building the country.

Well the fascists are a genuine problem. Russia has immense potential for Tourism, as well as international research and university institutions. But the fascist movement is preventing the country from opening it up, and could present a danger of a real nut controlling the country and plunging us straight back into a cold war, or possibly even worse.

So far, the parties that Putin has attacked, have been the extermist ones which advocate skinhead activity, getting rid of all the 'non-whites', etc...

But maybe you know something I don't...

[DIU]

Some additional comments on the amazing “program”:


1937-style forced retirement of 90% of military leaders.Russia will hardly outlive the new 1941. Is it guaranteed that “the new generation” will be more competent and honest than the old one?
In fact the refreshment of army proceeds in due course, generals retire, and colonels become generals. The present Russian generals are not old, usually about 50 (i.e. they ended the Soviet time as majors or colonels).
Is it offer to make generals from lieutenants at once? The modern big army is very complicated mechanism. It is easy to transform the Russian army (with ICBM, submarines, reconnaissance satellites, tank divisions and hundreds of various specialized services) into the army of Honduras/Burkina Faso/Georgia/Latvia, but it is almost impossible to transform the army of Honduras/Burkina Faso/Georgia/Latvia into the Russian army. The experience and competence can not appear from nowhere.


All functioneries of Soviet epoch must be forbidden from holding an office.And who will replace them? The young managers, mostly sons of the said functionaries? The process proceeds in due course, and the benefit from its artificial acceleration seem doubtful. It is unclear who is more thievish and incompetent.


Trial of all guilty of murder of Dudayev and ignition of the First Chechen war.
Why should Dudaev be singled out specially? A lot of much more decent people perished from both the sides. By the way, the main decision-makers of 1994 were Eltsin and Chernomyrdin. It is strange that you don’t mention them.


Liberalization of restrictions in Chechnya.
his is made, the results become visible.

Beginning negotiations with Chechen government in exile.

With whom?:) With Zakaev and similar “political refugees”?:roll: I am not sure that they have any weight in the present real Chechnya, and will be greeted there.

Removal of Kadyrov from power by any means necessary.

The Third Chechen war? Kadyrov is very popular in the present real Chechnya, and heads one of the main local clans. And who will replace him? Basaev or Yandarbiev? They are dead, happily.

Granting Chechnya the rights equal to that of Tatarstan

Chechnya already holds more privileged status right now. By the way, the question of “national language and culture” has never been meaningful during the Chechen wars.


Stoping any aid for selfproclaimed government of Transnistria, Ossetia, Abkhazia.
You are supporter of ethnic cleansings. In my opinion, it isn't good to betray few remaining friends.


Building democracy from grassroots. Empowering the regional democratical institutes, lowering decentralization.
You prefer to see a little princeling in each region. “Take as much sovereignty as you can – EBN in 1990s”.


Using best economists like Gaidar to work out a new course.You wish the new 1992. What horror.


Decentralization of mass-media.
How practically? Sell-out of the main TV channels to 3-4 oligarchs? Or directly to “foreign investors”?


Passing the law which allows soil to be bought and sold.
Are you sure that Abramovich will own and use the land more effectively than the local peasants/farmers?


Wasting the hostile stance towards the West.
I.e. the main oil/gas fields and pipelines should be sold to the Western companies. This is the main condition of acknowledging “the young Russian democracy” by the West.

Cooperating with the US and the EU on Iraq and Iran.

More exactly, cooperating with the US and their allies/satellites/lackeys, because the current Russian position is already similar to the positions of France or Germany.
And how this “cooperation” will look like? Sending the Russian troops to Iraq, as an addition to the Polish contingent? Do you really think that such a step would have any useful result, except for discrediting Russia in the eyes of a half of the world?
Joining the blockade of Iran and rupture of all commercial relations? Do you really think that USA would share anything profitable with Russia, if they succeed in establishing the puppet regimes in Iraq or Iran?

P.S. He wishes to make Poland of Russia, or sooner 4 under-Polands of the present Russia. I dislike this.

[Doublethinker]

This is a commonplace which is not disputed in the most "patriotic" Russian forums. The real questions are different: who is to blame for this, how the situation can be changed, what are the real goals of each force involved in the process.

The important difference between “the patriots” and “the liberasts” is that the latter believe that the West is interested in democracy and prosperity in Russia. In reply, “the patriots” finger at 1990s, at various underdeveloped or degraded “banana republics”, and underline that the power of oligarchy and bureaucracy in the dependent countries completely suits the West and supported by the West, if they are ready to accept the supreme control of the Western bureaucracy and international corporations over the own economy and politics.

Accordingly, “the liberasts”, who believe in the benefiting West, are sure that if they bend over and accept all rules and requirements imposed by the West, they will be accepted automatically in the so-called “golden billion” or “civilized world”, and become rich, developed and prosperous, i.e. equal to the new masters.

On the contrary, “the patriots”, who believe that the West is an old spider who first injects the sweet liberastic poison and then sucks the blood, are sure that only independent development and standing upon the own rights, interests and property against any external force, even if the hard and exhausting struggle is required, can bring success.

Well, it is easy to see who you side with ;)

I'd add another another description - "patriots" just love talking in slogans, like they are constantly on some sort of a political demonstration. The gift of pathos is provided to them in abundance. ;)

[Doublethinker]

Russia seems to be stuck between a rock and a hard place. We have to choose either the rock, or the hard place.

Doublethinker, blaming everyone is right in someways, as everyone is to blame, and everyone, Putin and Ivanov included, probably takes more than their slice of the pie. But really, you can say that about nearly every single politician in existance, including the ones in the West.

So now it's time to decide, what do you want for Russia Doublethinker? For us to conform to Western standards, or for us to forge our own path? Which will give Russians fruitfull living standards and conditions in the end?


I want Russia to conform to Western standards. There is no "our own path". Whenever we try to "forge something our own" and re-invent a bycicle, we somehow get an asian-like dictatorship or rule of bureaucracy.

I want Russians to stop being used for achieving certain aims - be it the rule of the Third Rome, construction of a communist society or creation of an Energetical Empire, etc. I want a Russian man to be the main treasure of our state, not viewed upon as means of achieving some "great goal".




DIU has pretty much explained all that needs to be explained. As for me though, I think a balanced policy should be in order. Don't antagonise the West, instead co-operate with them, but make it clear that we don't take orders from that part of the world.

DIU, hasn't explained anything, he just provided a set of typical "patriotic" cliches. Nothing to discuss there, really.

As for the "we don't take orders" - this nonsense is becoming kinda weird. Nobody's giving us orders, the asshole we got stuck in is the result of our own actions and there is nobody but ourselves to blame. And instead of suffering from psychological complexes, mumbling "Russia is weak now, but Russia will be strong again", we'd better re-think our whole approach to the role of the state:

Are people meant to service the needs of the state? Or maybe it is finally the time to realize that the state is meant for better servicing of the needs of the people?

[Doublethinker]

My your a cynical one aren't you... :D

1. I'm with you, Russia has far too many generals, that much is true. Something like 2000 when we only need 200. However, such a move will require a lot of centralisation, and crushing of discontent. After all, how are the generals likely to react when they are told that nearly all of them are fired?


That is why a full support of the people is necessary. Citizens have already defeated a coup once. And we can do it again. The military won't go against the people.



2. And who will hold an office? So far most MP's in Russia are only in office to represent some big business interest. That is not going to change any time soon, and the generation of politicians that grew up during the sunset of the USSR so to speak, are likely to be even more corrupt than the old commie buerocrats turned democrats.


It is not only about corruption - it is about style of work and to brerak the bond connecting them. To even begin considering a struggle against corruption, we need *rotation*.

Stalin understood that and did it in his own manner - he periodically organized *cleansing* of bureaucrtical apparat.



3. Dudayev certainly did plenty of his own killings. Like killings of any Russians who refused to flee from Grozny, as well as torture and killings of many Chechens who opposed him. He deserved to die. However, we do need to instigate more criminal investigations (in addition to the current ones) against many Russian army personel and officers who are suspected of war crimes. It's a hell of a long list though, I would suspect.


Whether he deserved to die is to be decided by court and by God. While the "little victorious war" this murder led to cost us thousands of Russian lives. That is the greatest crime of our government since the collapse of the USSR.



4. The Chechen government in-exile also commited a hell of a lot of war-crimes. Not to mention, they will never agree for anything short of full independence for Chechnya with a fundamentalist Islamic twist. And even then there is far from any gurantee that they won't support Islamists in Daghestan, Nagarno-Karbach, etc... When they are independent.


As for war-crimes - so did our our own government. And keeps committing them.
As for what they will agree for - we need to start talking to actually work out a common ground. Besides, independence of Chechnya might be the best option.



5. Do that, and loads of wars will suddenly start on Russia's borders. Wars that will spill out into Russia itself.


Don't do that, and both sides will hold you guilty for failure to achieve their aims, thus you alienate both sides at once. We can either allow them into the Russian Federation thus effectively proclaiming that we are an empire once again and alienating the whole CIS, or just let go and let them sort out their problems themselves.

By supporting separatists we are spoiling our own world image.



6. Break down de-centralisation, and we are back to square one with business interests gaining increased control over politics, and many radical movements gaining momentum.


Business interests SHOULD have a certain control over politics - this is normal. Besides, it does even now. Ever heard about Abramovich? Or that Putin's "United Russia" includes several oligarchs?

Centralization is really no answer to this problem.

As for the radical movement, I believe this is a fake problem used as a scarecrow. Inhumane conditions of the population contribute the most to the rise of nationalist feelings.



7. German Gref is doing a good job from what I hear. Infastructure is a national priority as of last year, with plenty of money going into it. IT as well is being heavily invested into. As for R&D, most of the money is already going into precisely that AFAIK, at least in terms of military tech. For commercial and space tech, I don't know the details. Excessive state investment, however, will increase inflation (it's already high enough). Are you talking about free-market investment?


Yes. Absolutely nothing is done to draw investors to the sphere of infrastructure. What government is giving is cents compared to what we need. We aren't even developing infrastructure - we are trying to prevent it from decaying. But the situation is deterioriating with each year.

And most of the money available for investment in infrastructure are used to service - guess what? You've got that right. Oil and gas industry. Here, read this, if you read Russian: http://www.novopol.ru/article11783.html



8. Read my point 6. Russian media was previously owned by a bunch of oligarchs who used it to further their interests. Perhaps dedicated corporations can be set-up, outside of state control (something like the BBC for example), but that sort of thing takes time.



Have you got any examples how oligarchs "furthered their interests" using media? And besides, the state has its own channel - why the need to control everything?? What gives?



9. Agriculture is also a national priority, and is gaining huge subsidies. Many sectors of it are rising, but some like Beef and possibly Pork production are still falling. The Russian government is trying to solve this problem via state investment and protectionism against the agricultural markets of Eastern Europe, the Americas, etc... For now, it is simply too much of an unprofitable and technologically backward industry in Russia to survive under the free-market, as you propose. But your suggestions are commendable, and should be implemented a bit later perhaps when the industry is back up to scratch.


The thing is, Gref has announced beef and pork production + farmerships as the main target of current agricultural policies. But I still don't see any effect - neither the law which allows to purchase land is accepted, not do we see any positive changes for beef & pork. Failures and cheap talk.

Where is the additional 32% of the agriciultural budget going?!



10. There is no particular hostile attitude towards the West. The EU is Russia's largest trading partner, and I would personally like to see further integration and development of relations. But it is clear, that we often have conflicts of interest, and that we should look out for ourselves rather than relying on them. After all, their intentions towards us are quite ambigous, and there exist plenty of examples of them profitting at our expense during the 90's for instance (read about the PSA's, and about Anglo-American natural resource interests in the Caspian and Caucauses regions). Not that the West are bad guys or anything, but Russia would benefit more with an independent policy, as we are not Poland, but a much larger country with far more borders and national interests & riches that could be exploited. As for Iran, the differences between Russia and the West are more tactical, than strategic. i.e. We agree that Iran having nukes is a bad thing, but we have different approaches in how to deal with this situation. We don't want another North Korea, after all...


The thing is, Russia has no coherent foreign policy right now at all. See how we change our course daily whenever it suits the guys in Kremlin? Yesterday we were friends with Byelorussia, today we turn off their gas to achieve some current economical aim and start expressing our worries about the polish minority.

This is idiotic. Russia is behaving like a cheap whore on the world arena. We aren't even trying to look coherent.



11. Oh yeah, great idea with Russia's already huge crime rate.



That is the main reason why we need it. All the bad guys already have weapons. Only the good guys don't.

Besides, it will make people feel more responsible. And that they have rights and means to protect them.



Yep that aim was a little too ambitious. But right now, stable and fast economic growth is forecast, even assuming very low global gas and oil prices over the coming year.


We've had stable economic growth even under Yeltsin. The thing is about how the money is distributed - and the government is terribly lacking there.






Putin spent his 1st term and some of his 2nd, centralising power at the expense of the old occupiers of the Kremlin. Now he's more or less done that, and is rapidly laying out the foundations for re-building the country.


More like making a banana republic which pumps oil to the west with 80% of the money being divided among the ruling clique.



Well the fascists are a genuine problem. Russia has immense potential for Tourism, as well as international research and university institutions. But the fascist movement is preventing the country from opening it up, and could present a danger of a real nut controlling the country and plunging us straight back into a cold war, or possibly even worse.

So far, the parties that Putin has attacked, have been the extermist ones which advocate skinhead activity, getting rid of all the 'non-whites', etc...

But maybe you know something I don't...

Fascist movement is preventing the country from opening it up?! Are you kidding me??

Fascism is no bigger a problem here then, say, in the US or Italy. The thing is, that all dissatisfied with Kremlin's policies especially concerning Chechnya and immigration are being lumped together with the "fascists".

[Doublethinker]

Some additional comments on the amazing “program”:


1937-style forced retirement of 90% of military leaders.Russia will hardly outlive the new 1941. Is it guaranteed that “the new generation” will be more competent and honest than the old one?


Russia would definately not outlive the new 1941. Because 80% of our generals would surrender quicker than those of Saddam.

As for the new generation - they WILL be more competent, if the government teaches them right. Old dogs hardly learn new tricks, while the new one can be taught basically anything.




In fact the refreshment of army proceeds in due course, generals retire, and colonels become generals.


Yep. And the spirit of a decaying Soviet Army and corruption is transferred from generation to generation.



[COLOR=black]Is it offer to make generals from lieutenants at once? The modern big army is very complicated mechanism. It is easy to transform the Russian army (with ICBM, submarines, reconnaissance satellites, tank divisions and hundreds of various specialized services) into the army of Honduras/Burkina Faso/Georgia/Latvia, but it is almost impossible to transform the army of Honduras/Burkina Faso/Georgia/Latvia into the Russian army. The experience and competence can not appear from nowhere.


In fact, there is no real reason for liutenants NOT to be assigned generals. Since 90% of our generals never saw any action and have no valuable experience whatsoever other than that of using their status for personal gain.



All functioneries of Soviet epoch must be forbidden from holding an office.[/LIST]And who will replace them? The young managers, mostly sons of the said functionaries? The process proceeds in due course, and the benefit from its artificial acceleration seem doubtful. It is unclear who is more thievish and incompetent.


See my response above.







[FONT=Verdana]Trial of all guilty of murder of Dudayev and ignition of the First Chechen war.
Why should Dudaev be singled out specially? A lot of much more decent people perished from both the sides. By the way, the main decision-makers of 1994 were Eltsin and Chernomyrdin. It is strange that you don’t mention them.


Why Dudayev? Because this murder destroyed all chances to end the conflict peacefully then.

As for why I'm not talking of Yeltsin and Co. - I'm a realist. Old Fart Can hardly be brought to court - that would cause an international outrage.





Liberalization of restrictions in Chechnya.
his is made, the results become visible.

Beginning negotiations with Chechen government in exile.

With whom?:) With Zakaev and similar “political refugees”?:roll: I am not sure that they have any weight in the present real Chechnya, and will be greeted there.


That would be viewed upon as a sign that we are finally changing our attitude to the problem. Besides, they are the ones paying to mercs arriving in Chechnya.




Removal of Kadyrov from power by any means necessary.

The Third Chechen war? Kadyrov is very popular in the present real Chechnya, and heads one of the main local clans. And who will replace him? Basaev or Yandarbiev? They are dead, happily.


Kadyrov has become the new Dudayev himself, only with much more power and with Moscow licking his heels. In fact, he just might be the most influential person in Russia already.

And while during the times of independence the sphere of chechen interests and main activity was Chechnya, now they are infiltrating all regions with Moscow's blessing.





Stoping any aid for selfproclaimed government of Transnistria, Ossetia, Abkhazia.
You are supporter of ethnic cleansings. In my opinion, it isn't good to betray few remaining friends.


We don't really need any enemies when we have such separatist rabble as "friends".

As for supporting ethnic cleansing - no I don't. I just think that they should sort everything out themselves. Our interference hurts our world standing and provides no real solution to the problem.




Building democracy from grassroots. Empowering the regional democratical institutes, lowering decentralization.
You prefer to see a little princeling in each region. “Take as much sovereignty as you can – EBN in 1990s”.



Why did you remove the part where I spoke of abolition of "senatorship"?
Not princedoms, but empowerment of local self-government on the lowest level.





Using best economists like Gaidar to work out a new course.You wish the new 1992. What horror.


Gaidar is hailed as one of the best crisis managers today. 1992 was the direct outcome of 80 years of planned economy coming finally to meet its doom.






Decentralization of mass-media.
How practically? Sell-out of the main TV channels to 3-4 oligarchs? Or directly to “foreign investors”?


Both. The government gets to keep the ORT channel, all others are privatised.





Passing the law which allows soil to be bought and sold.
Are you sure that Abramovich will own and use the land more effectively than the local peasants/farmers?


The farmers don't own the land. They need the law themselves to create normal farmerships.





Wasting the hostile stance towards the West.
I.e. the main oil/gas fields and pipelines should be sold to the Western companies. This is the main condition of acknowledging “the young Russian democracy” by the West.



No, it is not. It is quite sufficient not to have an autoritarian ruler in power.



Cooperating with the US and the EU on Iraq and Iran.

More exactly, cooperating with the US and their allies/satellites/lackeys, because the current Russian position is already similar to the positions of France or Germany.


No, our position is like that of China on Iran. Russia doesn't support any serious sanctions against Iran.



And how this “cooperation” will look like? Sending the Russian troops to Iraq, as an addition to the Polish contingent? Do you really think that such a step would have any useful result, except for discrediting Russia in the eyes of a half of the world?
Joining the blockade of Iran and rupture of all commercial relations? Do you really think that USA would share anything profitable with Russia, if they succeed in establishing the puppet regimes in Iraq or Iran?


As for Iraq - we need to help promoting democracy there. We have many influential muslims living in our country and the arabic world views us favourably. We can use this asset to help in Iraq.

Iran deserves a blockade, because its not in our interests for arabs to have a bomb. Its not in ANYbody's interests, even the arabs themselves.

[DIU]

As for the new generation - they WILL be more competent, if the government teaches them right.
What “the government”? The Putin’s one? Or the Eltsin-Chernomyrdin-Gaidar-Chubais’ one? Or you propose to obtain “the teachers” directly from the atmosphere? Or the US occupation administration should be invited to build “democracy” after the Iraqi pattern?
Though, it seems you begin to understand that “the new generation” of 1990s is not very competent, demoralized enough and ideologically as split as “the old generation”.

Yep. And the spirit of a decaying Soviet Army and corruption is transferred from generation to generation.
The gradual amelioration is visible. Have you discovered the source of ideal soldiers? And where, in the youth organization of “The union of right forces” (SPS in Russian)?

In fact, there is no real reason for liutenants NOT to be assigned generals. Since 90% of our generals never saw any action and have no valuable experience whatsoever other than that of using their status for personal gain.
Are you really sure that the “ideologically correct” lieutenant can command a tank division or a squadron of nuclear submarines or can define and control the research and purchasing policy for tactical aviation better than the present general? May be, the military academy should be graduated at least?
Georgia and Azerbaijan followed this path in 1992-93. The result is known.

Why Dudayev? Because this murder destroyed all chances to end the conflict peacefully then.
Plundering and expulsing the non-Chechen population of “Ichkeria” in 1991-94, not to mention coining false money, financial machinations, concealment of criminals from all Russia, creating separate army sponsored from abroad etc. etc., is “a peaceful course of events”, in your opinion?

Old Fart Can hardly be brought to court - that would cause an international outrage.
I see, “international approval” is more important to you than administration of justice. You wish to imprison the Eltsin's lackeys, but “the father of Russian democracy” should enjoy “the international recognition”.Indeed, hypocrisy is the main quality of each liberast.

That would be viewed upon as a sign that we are finally changing our attitude to the problem.
In my opinion, it is necessary to meet expectation of the population of Russia, including Chechnya itself, instead of “making friendly signs” to the foreign “well-wishers”.

Besides, they are the ones paying to mercs arriving in Chechnya.
Are you going to pacify the Saudi sheikhs and the European Islamic Funds?

Kadyrov has become the new Dudayev himself, only with much more power and with Moscow licking his heels.
Where is your logic? You wish the dead Dudaev (who made the mess) to be pacified, but you wish “the new Dudaev” (who is in fact much less guilty of the current situation) to be eliminated by any means. Do you so want the Third Chechen War to harm the hated Putin?

We don't really need any enemies when we have such separatist rabble as "friends".
The population of the whole regions is “rabble”? Though, of course, they are Russian-speaking, willingly accepted the Russian citizenship and explicitly wish to enter the Russian Federation. This certainly makes them “rabble” for the real “democrat”.

As for supporting ethnic cleansing - no I don't.
If they didn’t become “separatists” in the beginning of 1990s, they would have been robbed and expelled completely, as the non-Georgian population of Sukhumi in August 1992. Though, of course, the real “democrat” can not be interested in the destiny of “Russian-speaking rabble”.

Our interference hurts our world standing and provides no real solution to the problem.
The peoples of Transnistria, Ossetia, Abkhazia have already solved their problems, now they are independent states and will decide on their own whom they should join.
Though, I’ve forgotten again that the real “democrat” can not be interested in the opinion of the own people (the inhabitants of the said regions are Russian citizens), only “the world standing” is important to him.

Why did you remove the part where I spoke of abolition of "senatorship"?
Because abolition of "senatorship" would make princelings more autocratic and uncontrollable, i.e. worsen the situation. Now they have to appear in Moscow sometimes, at least.

Not princedoms, but empowerment of local self-government on the lowest level.
I.e. multitude of tiny princelings instead of many little princelings.

Gaidar is hailed as one of the best crisis managers today.
And what crisis did he manage after his brilliant “successes” of 1992?

Both. The government gets to keep the ORT channel, all others are privatised.
I.e. back to 1990s – all (except ORT) channels are owned by Berezovski, Gusinski and Khodorkovski (three men) as proxies of Murdock and Soros. That will be the true freedom of mass media.

It is quite sufficient not to have an autoritarian ruler in power.
I have sturdy feeling that Putin will immediately become the example of democratic ruler and the beacon of free world as soon as he sells out the Russian oil/gas fields and pipelines to the Western companies.

As for Iraq - we need to help promoting democracy there.
The Greatest Hyper Power is failing to promote democracy in Iraq, the enlightened Polish, Lithuanian and Estonian Europeans fail to render the sufficient assistance to the Greatest Hyper Power, and you expect that the Russian-speaking rabble can change anything? How naïve.

We have many influential muslims living in our country and the arabic world views us favourably. We can use this asset to help in Iraq.
All Muslim and Arabic favour will disappear on the next day after using this asset to help the Greatest Hyper Power in Iraq. And all orders for Russian weaponry will disappear too, from Morocco to Malaysia. I deeply doubt that USA together with Polish, Lithuanian and Estonian Europeans will buy anything instead.

Iran deserves a blockade, because its not in our interests for arabs to have a bomb.
By the way, have you a clue what nation lives in Iran?

[Doublethinker]

What “the government”? The Putin’s one? Or the Eltsin-Chernomyrdin-Gaidar-Chubais’ one? Or you propose to obtain “the teachers” directly from the atmosphere? Or the US occupation administration should be invited to build “democracy” after the Iraqi pattern?


Anyone who is strong enough to lead others and begin an orange revolution is suitable enough. Kasparov is ok, for example.



Though, it seems you begin to understand that “the new generation” of 1990s is not very competent, demoralized enough and ideologically as split as “the old generation”.


For the reasons mentioned before. No sense in new officers if we keep the old army. First install the institute of voluntary and professional military training, then change the leaders.

The new generation is demoralized because the Army keeps rotting while nobody seems to be doing anything about it.




The gradual amelioration is visible. Have you discovered the source of ideal soldiers? And where, in the youth organization of “The union of right forces” (SPS in Russian)?


All soldiers who are skilled enough and dedicated to studying the art of war and actually willing to become protectors of Russia are fine by me.





Are you really sure that the “ideologically correct” lieutenant can command a tank division or a squadron of nuclear submarines or can define and control the research and purchasing policy for tactical aviation better than the present general? May be, the military academy should be graduated at least?
Georgia and Azerbaijan followed this path in 1992-93. The result is known.


Actually right now the only divisions that can still fight are VDV. Read Shurigin's livejournal entries. He is good at providing first-hand info about the current state of our army.




Plundering and expulsing the non-Chechen population of “Ichkeria” in 1991-94, not to mention coining false money, financial machinations, concealment of criminals from all Russia, creating separate army sponsored from abroad etc. etc., is “a peaceful course of events”, in your opinion?


And there you go again with your slogans.:roll:




I see, “international approval” is more important to you than administration of justice. You wish to imprison the Eltsin's lackeys, but “the father of Russian democracy” should enjoy “the international recognition”.Indeed, hypocrisy is the main quality of each liberast.


Hypocrisy: insincerity by virtue of pretending to have qualities or beliefs that you do not really have.

Realism: the attribute of accepting the facts of life and favoring practicality and literal truth.

See the difference now?




In my opinion, it is necessary to meet expectation of the population of Russia, including Chechnya itself, instead of “making friendly signs” to the foreign “well-wishers”.


Russian population has already been turned into zombies by the most part. According to an opinion poll, 30% or more are willing to vote for ANYONE Putin calls his heir to the throne.




Are you going to pacify the Saudi sheikhs and the European Islamic Funds?


Do I need to?




Where is your logic? You wish the dead Dudaev (who made the mess) to be pacified, but you wish “the new Dudaev” (who is in fact much less guilty of the current situation) to be eliminated by any means. Do you so want the Third Chechen War to harm the hated Putin?


I believe Kadyrov is the most dangerous person for Russia since Yeltsin.

By calling him "the new dudayev" i wanted to show metaphorically in your own terms that he is of the greatest danger.

And there will be no war, who is asking for a war? Right now Kadyrov is actively suppressing all oppossition inside Chechnya. But he still needs Putin to support him. Cease this support now 0 and he will likely fall. Keep supporting him - and he might become uncontrollable couple of years later.




The population of the whole regions is “rabble”? Though, of course, they are Russian-speaking, willingly accepted the Russian citizenship and explicitly wish to enter the Russian Federation. This certainly makes them “rabble” for the real “democrat”.


It should be an object of a seperate investigation how these people managed to get Russian passports en masse, when real ethnic Russians are still standing in lines to get new passports and get out of middle Asian republics.




If they didn’t become “separatists” in the beginning of 1990s, they would have been robbed and expelled completely, as the non-Georgian population of Sukhumi in August 1992. Though, of course, the real “democrat” can not be interested in the destiny of “Russian-speaking rabble”.


I'm really not so interested in their destiny. We have enough "churok" of our own.




The peoples of Transnistria, Ossetia, Abkhazia have already solved their problems, now they are independent states and will decide on their own whom they should join.


They aren't independent states. No country on Earth recognizes them. And the problem will remain until we move out our "peacekeepers".



Though, I’ve forgotten again that the real “democrat” can not be interested in the opinion of the own people (the inhabitants of the said regions are Russian citizens), only “the world standing” is important to him.



As I've said before, the reason how and why they became Russian citizens should be investigated seperately.First of all, their passports should be made void.




Because abolition of "senatorship" would make princelings more autocratic and uncontrollable, i.e. worsen the situation. Now they have to appear in Moscow sometimes, at least.


I.e. multitude of tiny princelings instead of many little princelings.


What are you, raving? Or do you think that Russians can only have either a one tsar or many small tsars and we are inherently incapable of building a normal democratical society and then consider ME to be a hypocrite and russophobe?

Have you ever heard about "volosti" and "udeli", the old Russian administrative units? THESE are the units that need to be empowered and granted more authority.





And what crisis did he manage after his brilliant “successes” of 1992?


the 1992 itself was a success. He managed to start up the market economy in shortest terms. The world had no experience of such a transition for such a huge country before that.




I.e. back to 1990s – all (except ORT) channels are owned by Berezovski, Gusinski and Khodorkovski (three men) as proxies of Murdock and Soros. That will be the true freedom of mass media.


Indeed. That would be a nice solution, why not? Most of the media everywhere is owned by magnates. But the experience shows that it is the government rather then media-magnates tries to further its interests via the control of media.

The question is why do you call them proxies of Murdock and Soros?




I have sturdy feeling that Putin will immediately become the example of democratic ruler and the beacon of free world as soon as he sells out the Russian oil/gas fields and pipelines to the Western companies.


Do you expect me to comment on your "sturdy feelings"? ;)




The Greatest Hyper Power is failing to promote democracy in Iraq, the enlightened Polish, Lithuanian and Estonian Europeans fail to render the sufficient assistance to the Greatest Hyper Power, and you expect that the Russian-speaking rabble can change anything? How naïve.


How inventive of a soviet-like mindset. :roll: First twisting my words to come up with a new supposedly offensive term (while the "rabble" word was actually meant for self-proclaimed governments)and then forcing it upon me.

Cheap move, tovarish. Very cheap. ;)

[AT-T]

Probably.
1. 1937-style forced retirement of 90% of military leaders. A new state needs a new army, not a dying and decaying version of an old one. Bolsheviks understood that and did accordingly, using only the most able as consultants and teachers.

Another purge Mr.Stalin?
It was done 1917 with the result of a loosing west-ukraine to poland.
It was done 1937 with the result of horrible losses in the initial GPW-phase
It was also done by Yelzin 1991 after the GKChP-coup. The result was the Chechen war.


2. All functioneries of Soviet epoch must be forbidden from holding an office.

Yeah, let's fire all experienced specialists, and let the country being governed by idiots. Already done unter Yelzin. The result is known.


3. Trial of all guilty of murder of Dudayev and ignition of the First Chechen war including Stepashin, Grachev, etc.

Better trialing those who are responsible for chechen war by not murering Dudayev 1992 and tolerating the murder of non-separatist-chechens and non-chechen-minorities by Dudayev's Ichkeria. Those are Yelzin,Gaidar,Chernomyrdin and other associated politicians which brought the country to the level of separatist wars.


4. Liberalization of restrictions in Chechnya. Beginning negotiations with Chechen government in exile. Removal of Kadyrov from power by any means necessary. Granting Chechnya the rights equal to that of Tatarstan "independent republic within the Russian Federation" as an option.

So replacing a bandit with a terrorist. Thanks. Dagestanis will be pleased to have the same government at their border whose premier-minister pillaged their villages 1999.
BTW Chechnya already has more souvereignity then other autonomus regions.


5. Stoping any aid for selfproclaimed government of Transnistria, Ossetia, Abkhazia.

But negotiate with self-proclaimed chechen exile government? Funny. Inviting border wars. Casuing thousand people to became refugees.


6. Building democracy from grassroots. Empowering the regional democratical institutes, lowering decentralization. Break down of "senatorship" institute.

So destroying all state institutions and turn the country into a pseudo-democratic anarchy. It would be funny if it wasn't already done under Yelzin.


7. Using best economists like Gaidar to work out a new course, most profitable in the long-term for current high oil-prices like investing in infrastructure and R&D.

The one who caused the greatest economical crash in peacetimes ever is "best economist"? No comments.


8. Decentralization of mass-media.
To the pockets of oligarchs? Or western corporations which "know better what's best for Russia".


9. Passing the law which allows soil to be bought and sold. Creation of strong farmerships via relaxed taxes, lower prices on gas for agricultural vehicles, etc.

So let oligarchs buying all the land. Let peasants being turned to serfdom again.


10. Wasting the hostile stance towards the West. Cooperating with the US and the EU on Iraq and Iran.

LOL. Abandoning own interests and becaming an other US-proxy.


11. The right to keep and bear arms.

So increasing homicide rate. what a blessing.


He has little success in all the areas he has addressed. Poor healthcare, high taxes, low economical initiative of the population, high crime rate, low birthrate, terrible breath-taking corruption.

Army is beyond any help already. Thank god nobody in the west is planning to attack us.

Which he inherited from Yelzin which casued it by exactly the methods you just proposed.

Basically you are a Novodvorskaya-style radical promoter of surrendering to the west, repeating all the mistakes of the 90s and complete russia's political, economical, financial and even territorial destruction.

[Mr.K]

Doublethinker: If you want to live like in Switzerland, move to Switzerland (Russian saying) :)

[asch]

Doublethinker, do you ever consider immigrate to Yurop or something?

[Smersh]

'western standards' whats that?

[Doublethinker]

Another purge Mr.Stalin?
It was done 1917 with the result of a loosing west-ukraine to poland.
It was done 1937 with the result of horrible losses in the initial GPW-phase
It was also done by Yelzin 1991 after the GKChP-coup. The result was the Chechen war.


Your ability to find parallels where there are none is simply astonishing. Just as your knowledge of history.



Yeah, let's fire all experienced specialists, and let the country being governed by idiots. Already done unter Yelzin. The result is known.


More cheap slogans. You don't even try to put any thinking into it, do you?

Another "patriot", I presume? =)



Better trialing those who are responsible for chechen war by not murering Dudayev 1992 and tolerating the murder of non-separatist-chechens and non-chechen-minorities by Dudayev's Ichkeria. Those are Yelzin,Gaidar,Chernomyrdin and other associated politicians which brought the country to the level of separatist wars.


Separatist wars are inevitable whenever some weakening of central government occurs. Despite all the slogans, the many peoples populating Russia have never come to form a united nation. More like they are always held together by force of the central government.

And whenever this force starts weakening, the country begins falling apart.

We can either choose to live forever under tyrants "for the sake of saving Mother Russia", or try to find the solution to the problem.



So replacing a bandit with a terrorist. Thanks. Dagestanis will be pleased to have the same government at their border whose premier-minister pillaged their villages 1999.
BTW Chechnya already has more souvereignity then other autonomus regions.


Actually its replacing a terrorist with a terrorist. The thing is, Kadyrov poses a much greater threat now. Read above.




But negotiate with self-proclaimed chechen exile government? Funny. Inviting border wars. Casuing thousand people to became refugees.


Yes. We need to negotiate with chechen government in exhile because its in our own interests.
And we should stop interfering in the CIS countries' problems because it is not. The only reason WE are there is because we don't want to the EU task force to be there.



So destroying all state institutions and turn the country into a pseudo-democratic anarchy. It would be funny if it wasn't already done under Yelzin.


More cheap talk. Read the thread before posting. I was talking about "volosti" and local self-government.

But to most patriots, not having a tsar with boots to lick is like having an anarchy, I presume. Too damn hard to be responsible for your lives - much easier to pin all hopes on the "Dear Leader".



The one who caused the greatest economical crash in peacetimes ever is "best economist"? No comments.


Neo, I think its hightime you wake up to reality, for God's sake!

The economical crash began under PREVIOUS prime-minister Pavlov - who virtually robbed the citizens of their savings. Are you even Russian? How old are you anyway? You seem to be judging that period of our history according to Daddy's faery tales.

While Gaidar helped solve the problem of deficit of goods, even though it happened via liberalization of prices and subsequent hyperinflation. But he had little world experience to rely on.



To the pockets of oligarchs? Or western corporations which "know better what's best for Russia".


Better several sources of info then the only one.



So let oligarchs buying all the land. Let peasants being turned to serfdom again.


And yet another cheap slogan!
What a wonderful example of primitive thinking. "pass the law which allows land to be bought and sold" -> "Oligarchs will buy all the land". Just as easy as that.
You don't even try to think, how land purchases can be regulated, how it is done in other countries. You don't need to look for any answers really, you've already got them all in your "Patriotism for dummies" FAQ section.



LOL. Abandoning own interests and becaming an other US-proxy.


Ahh... you're hopeless.

Congratulations on your promotion from "patriots" to "pedriots". While the former is more like a flu for the brain, the latter is a way of life ;)

[Doublethinker]

Doublethinker: If you want to live like in Switzerland, move to Switzerland (Russian saying) :)


So you think its our destiny to live under the yoke of Putin's clique with one corrupt bureacrat replacing the other, while the population is still dying out? How interesting.

[Doublethinker]

Doublethinker, do you ever consider immigrate to Yurop or something?

Why should I? I want to build a normal country for myself and for my children here. Unlike many patriots who scream Russia strong!!1 from the safe haven in New York ;)

Besides, I'd really prefer the "patriots" to move to Byelorussia or, say, Turkmenistan, so that they can enjoy the beauty of bootlicking and ass-kissing to their beloved Khans or Tsars in full ;)

[asch]

well, it's much more easy to move to more acceptable places (safe havens?) than to enforce a whole huge country to acting in the way you like.
no sarcasm, no offence (just in case).
p-)
and about current situation in Russia - i see progress almost every month. simple as it.

[Doublethinker]

well, it's much more easy to move to more acceptable places (safe havens?) than to enforce a whole huge country to acting in the way you like.
no sarcasm, no offence (just in case).
p-)
and about current situation in Russia - i see progress almost every month. simple as it.

Yeah, so simple.

And I see that infrustructure is living its final days and nothing is done to cure this.

I see that laws necessary to draw private investment into spheres OTHER than oil and gas aren't passed.

And I see that the day oil prices go down, all our "progress seen almost every month" will immediately dwindle to the usual 1-2% like under Yeltsin and we'll see once again that all the money has been wasted up for nothing.

[AT-T]

Yeah, so simple.

And I see that infrustructure is living its final days and nothing is done to cure this.

I see that laws necessary to draw private investment into spheres OTHER than oil and gas aren't passed.

And I see that the day oil prices go down, all our "progress seen almost every month" will immediately dwindle to the usual 1-2% like under Yeltsin and we'll see once again that all the money has been wasted up for nothing.

just the "solution" for these problems you proposed is to continue Yelzins destruction of Russia, inviting wars in separatist regions at Russian borders (and guess where the refugees of these wars will flee to?), bring those who robbed and sold out the country to power again, abandon russian interests and became a will-less protectorate of western masters. That's basically the conclusion of your points.

The only sad thing is that the country already suffered 8 years under a goverment which shared your views. It's not a problem if there are people which are trying to drive themselves against the wall again and again, but it's a problem if they are trying to do it with lifes of others.