Al-Jazeera Airs Video of U.S. Soldier

[Seraphim]

BAGHDAD, Iraq - The Arab TV station Al-Jazeera aired video footage Friday showing a U.S. soldier in the custody of insurgents, surrounded by masked gunmen.


On the tape, the soldier identifies himself as Pfc. Maupin. One of two missing soliders in Iraq (news - web sites) is Pfc. Keith M. Maupin, 20, of Batavia, Ohio.


The footage shows the soldier sitting on floor with five masked men behind him holding automatic rifles. U.S. military authorities are attempting to verify that the man is Maupin.


Two U.S. soldiers and seven U.S. civilian contractors have been missing in Iraq since their convoy was attacked April 9 outside Baghdad, amid a wave of kidnappings targeting foreigners. The other missing soldier is Sgt. Elmer C. Krause, 40, of Greensboro, N.C.

[American Patriot]

I hope they find him before the terrorists kill him.

[tuckerhat]

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,117342,00.html


Video Shows Kidnapped U.S. Soldier
Friday, April 16, 2004

BAGHDAD, Iraq — A videotape appearing to show an American soldier being held captive by enemy forces in Iraq is being reviewed by the U.S. military, defense officials told Fox News on Friday.

The tape, which aired on the Qatar-base Arabic satellite news station, Al Jazeera (search), shows one U.S. soldier, surrounded by militants, possibly militia members.

The soldier identifies himself as Pfc. Keith M. Maupin (search), 20, of Batavia, Ohio. He was one of two soldiers who recently went missing; both were assigned to the Army Reserve's 724th Transportation Company, based in Bartonville, Ill.

Senior officials at the Pentagon don't yet have access to the tape but are in the process of drafting an official response.

The tape apparently was dropped off at the U.S. embassy in Doha, Qatar, by "Al Jazeera reporters," officials said. The tape was then turned over to U.S. Central Command in Baghdad, which is now analyzing its contents for authenticity.

Friday's news came after three Czech journalists, and possibly a Canadian and a Chinese man, were freed unharmed in Iraq Friday, but a man from the United Arab Emirates and a Danish businessman were reported kidnapped, the latest in a wave of abductions that have accompanied a surge of violence in Iraq.

On Thursday, kidnappers executed an Italian — the first known killing of a hostage in the current crisis. His captors warned they would kill three more Italians in their custody unless Italy withdraws its troops. All four Italians were security guards working for a U.S.-based company.

American experts also continued working to determine whether four bodies discovered west of Baghdad were the remains of seven private U.S. contractors missing since a March 9 attack against their convoy. One of the missing — Thomas Hamill, a 43-year-old truck driver — is known to have been abducted.

Fox News' Bret Baier, Ian McCaleb and The Associated Press contributed to this report.

[Skaman]

Why are all the Iraqi's in conflict with the Coalition considered 'terrorists'???

[MaDuce]

Why are all the Iraqi's in conflict with the Coalition considered 'terrorists'???
They have taken him as a hostage and will probably torure and kill him sounds like terrorism to me.

[Saint]

Kill One, Terrorize a thousand

[Skaman]

Why are all the Iraqi's in conflict with the Coalition considered 'terrorists'???
They have taken him as a hostage and will probably torure and kill him sounds like terrorism to me.


I recall when Jessica Lynch and the other US servicemen were captured, this forum shouted bloody murder, and sought vengeance on the “treacherous terrorists”. As I recall, they were released without harm, fed, and looked after with medical care during their captivity. Prisoners are taken in war, what do you expect?

[mustamato]

http://i.a.cnn.net/cnn/2004/WORLD/meast/04/16/iraq.main/top.main.aljazeera.tape.jpg
Pfc. Keith Maupin

He doesn´t look very tortured to me. Of course difficult to say, the tape could
be "old", but I doubt that they amuse themselves by torturing a simple private.

[Uncle Sam]

Why are all the Iraqi's in conflict with the Coalition considered 'terrorists'???

He said...


I hope they find him before the terrorists kill him.

What do you call thugs who kidnap people, wear masks, cary AK's, threaten to mutilate, burn alive, etc...??

...Oh, you call them your bud's...I forgot.

[American Patriot]

Looking at that photo is gut wrenching.

[scm77]

He doesn´t look very tortured to me. Of course difficult to say, the tape could
be "old", but I doubt that they amuse themselves by torturing a simple private.

I doubt they give a **** what rank he is. He's an American.

[caspermeister]

Why are all the Iraqi's in conflict with the Coalition considered 'terrorists'???

:bash:
Why don't you stop making retarded comments in this forum???

[Uncle Sam]

ter·ror·ist [ térrerist ] (plural ter·ror·ists)

noun

somebody using violence for political purposes: somebody who uses violence or the threat of violence, especially bombing, kidnapping, and assassination, to intimidate, often for political purposes

[mack pl]

How do you know Mustamato?You have conection with f***n terrorists ;)

[Rilence]

i wonder what the us is going to do?? send in a CT unit to rescue him? doubt it probably just hope they release him they can always hope cant they........well until they kill him but what are the chances of that happening..... :cantbeli:

[Skaman]

ter·ror·ist [ térrerist ] (plural ter·ror·ists)

noun

somebody using violence for political purposes: somebody who uses violence or the threat of violence, especially bombing, kidnapping, and assassination, to intimidate, often for political purposes

By that definition, the Coalition would be acting with “terrorism” as they are using violence, threat of violence, bombing, and intimidation all for political purpose.



:cantbeli:

[usa320]

What do you call thugs who kidnap people, wear masks, cary AK's, threaten to mutilate, burn alive, etc...??

Chechens?

:lol:

nah, but in all seriousness, while im pissed at them, better they take soldiers thatn civilians. It increasese the chances of us finding him, or of him escaping.

But indeed, Kidnappings cross the line between resistance and terrorism.

[Abolith]

I hope intel can locate them and some SF can execute a P&E.

here is to hoping they come home safe.

[RomanS]

[quote=ducimus19]What do you call thugs who kidnap people, wear masks, cary AK's, threaten to mutilate, burn alive, etc...??

...Oh, you call them your bud's...I forgot.

GOD this all sounds way tooooo familiar.

[UkrainianAmerican]

Some of you people, should really avoid posting your political bull**** on a thread like this. I bet he isnt enjoying his time very much.

[Mark Sman]

I hope they get him back unharmed. I hope he is treated as a Prisoner Of War. I hope that his captors are killed during a rescue.

Here is a little helpful reading for some folks that may have forgotten the background against which this soldier was captured.

http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/engMDE140082001?OpenDocument

http://www.kashmirherald.com/featuredarticle/islamandprisonersofwar.html

[ibstolidude]

http://i.a.cnn.net/cnn/2004/WORLD/meast/04/16/iraq.main/top.main.aljazeera.tape.jpg
Pfc. Keith Maupin

He doesn´t look very tortured to me. Of course difficult to say, the tape could
be "old", but I doubt that they amuse themselves by torturing a simple private.
Having seen first hand what these people can do - I would put little past them..
Certainly Iraq has its fair share of proffessional styled soldiers that will act with an amount of human decency - however that does little to ensure it is them who hold him
Let's hope it IS Iraqis v/s some of the other people in that place.

[BlackRain]

As I recall, they were released without harm, fed, and looked after with medical care during their captivity. Prisoners are taken in war, what do you expect?


You really need to get a refund from the college you are attending because you are a moron.



Jessica Lynch was brutally raped by her Iraqi captors.
http://www.nydailynews.com/front/story/134264p-119598c.html

The Department of Defense announced the identity of two soldiers listed as Duty Status Whereabouts Unknown (DUSTWUN) who were supporting Operation Iraqi Freedom.

The soldiers were unaccounted for since April 9 when their convoy came under attack by individuals using rocket-propelled grenades and small arms fire. Both soldiers were assigned to the Army Reserve’s 724th Transportation Company, Bartonville, Ill. Reported as DUSTWUN are:

Sgt. Elmer C. Krause, 40, of Greensboro, N.C.

Pfc. Keith M. Maupin, 20, of Batavia, Ohio.

[Skaman]

The Jessica Lynch rape was a big scam.

[SFontaine]

Stop being an apologist, Ducimus and stop trying to defend these people. Killing Coalition Soldiers who are trying to rebuild a country is TERRORISM. Plain and simple.

[ibstolidude]

Why are all the Iraqi's in conflict with the Coalition considered 'terrorists'???
They have taken him as a hostage and will probably torure and kill him sounds like terrorism to me.


I recall when Jessica Lynch and the other US servicemen were captured, this forum shouted bloody murder, and sought vengeance on the “treacherous terrorists”. As I recall, they were released without harm, fed, and looked after with medical care during their captivity. Prisoners are taken in war, what do you expect?
You recollection is pretty poor then or tainted by political bias...

and the rest of those unfortuante soldiers in the 507th incident?
How about other POW's in Iraq's past?
during the first GW?

Lets not even talk about the treatment of Iranian prisoners.

[Kriz]

Well he's a soldier which makes him a more legitimate target imho then aid workers or journalists. Nevertheless I hope he gets released alive!

[American Patriot]

Time to nuke Mecca and Medina.

[Fenna]

That's a great solution, well done :bash:

[ibstolidude]

Why are all the Iraqi's in conflict with the Coalition considered 'terrorists'???
I don't consider them ALL terrorists
However when you capture people - then threaten to kill them when your demands are not met - that is terrorism. Kinda hard to argue that a captured man who is accepting the submission is anything other than a NON combatant. And well terrorists INTENTIONALLY target non-combatants.

So with my minor military knowledge (haha) and horribly twisted American education suffered, hitler-esque right wing, crazy, imperialistic mind - capturing soldiers and/or civilians and threatening to kill them if your demands are not met is terrorist activities. (even bigger hahaha)

....Unless you feel this is an acceptable military practice.

[Skaman]

Stop being an apologist, Ducimus and stop trying to defend these people. Killing Coalition Soldiers who are trying to rebuild a country is TERRORISM. Plain and simple.


that does not constitute terrorism.

[usa320]

that does not constitute terrorism.

No, but killing civilians delivering food and water, killing builders making schools and police stations and hospitals, and shooting at doctors and journalists is certainly terrorism.


wachacha...pwned...

[Uncle Sam]

ter·ror·ist [ térrerist ] (plural ter·ror·ists)

noun

somebody using violence for political purposes: somebody who uses violence or the threat of violence, especially bombing, kidnapping, and assassination, to intimidate, often for political purposes

By that definition, the Coalition would be acting with “terrorism” as they are using violence, threat of violence, bombing, and intimidation all for political purpose.



:cantbeli:

Oh, that's right...You...are so smart! I almost keep forgetting that you are a pussy. You would make a good french politician.

[AFACadet]

EXTRA!!!! EXTRA!!!! Read all about it!




http://www.geocities.com/afacadet2000/notam.txt













Tounge and cheek for you slow ones out there

[khukuri]

that does not constitute terrorism.

No, but killing civilians delivering food and water, killing builders making schools and police stations and hospitals, and shooting at doctors and journalists is certainly terrorism.


wachacha...pwned...

He was talking about soilders/combatants beeing captured! Not what you write above. Anybody who shoot civilians is a murderer and terrorists.
You dont know if its the same guys doing the same things.

If I should generelise like you do, think how it would be like if I all generelised all GI soilders during vietnam war for what a couple of savage assholes did to viet kids.









By the way.... some morons on this forum have nothing better to say than youre a pussy, if you dont have an argument I dont think anybody is interested to read, so keep the bs and kiddie acts to yourself.

[Uncle Sam]

that does not constitute terrorism.

No, but killing civilians delivering food and water, killing builders making schools and police stations and hospitals, and shooting at doctors and journalists is certainly terrorism.


wachacha...pwned...

He was talking about soilders/combatants beeing captured! Not what you write above. Anybody who shoot civilians is a murderer and terrorists.
You dont know if its the same guys doing the same things.

If I should generelise like you do, think how it would be like if I all generelised all GI soilders during vietnam war for what a couple of savage assholes did to viet kids.









By the way.... some morons on this forum have nothing better to say than youre a pussy, if you dont have an argument I dont think anybody is interested to read, so keep the bs and kiddie acts to yourself.

pussy.

[mustamato]

http://i.a.cnn.net/cnn/2004/WORLD/meast/04/16/iraq.main/top.maupin.gunmen.jpg


"He is in good health and being treated based on the tenets of Islamic law for the treatment of soldiers taken hostage. We will keep him until we trade him for our prisoners in the custody of the U.S. enemy. We want them to know -- and the whole world to know -- that when we took him in, he came out of his tank holding a white flag and he lay face down on the ground, just like other soldiers."

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/04/16/iraq.main/index.html

I guess this means that they will treat him good, and that he didn´t piss them
of when captured by resisting all too much.

[seruriermarshal]

Bless allies soldier ......

[khukuri]

http://i.a.cnn.net/cnn/2004/WORLD/meast/04/16/iraq.main/top.maupin.gunmen.jpg


"He is in good health and being treated based on the tenets of Islamic law for the treatment of soldiers taken hostage. We will keep him until we trade him for our prisoners in the custody of the U.S. enemy. We want them to know -- and the whole world to know -- that when we took him in, he came out of his tank holding a white flag and he lay face down on the ground, just like other soldiers."

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/04/16/iraq.main/index.html

I guess this means that they will treat him good, and that he didn´t piss them
of when captured by resisting all too much.


do we know what cind of moslems this is, sunni or shia? which are fallujah?

[Uncle Sam]

http://i.a.cnn.net/cnn/2004/WORLD/meast/04/16/iraq.main/top.maupin.gunmen.jpg


"He is in good health and being treated based on the tenets of Islamic law for the treatment of soldiers taken hostage. We will keep him until we trade him for our prisoners in the custody of the U.S. enemy. We want them to know -- and the whole world to know -- that when we took him in, he came out of his tank holding a white flag and he lay face down on the ground, just like other soldiers."

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/04/16/iraq.main/index.html

I guess this means that they will treat him good, and that he didn´t piss them
of when captured by resisting all too much.

That still doesn't change the fact that these people holding him are terrorists. But I am glad they are treating him well.

[Haiw]

Terrorists... it's becoming a buzzword. Whatever they are, I hope the thing in the CNN article is true. Whatever the result, whether a rescue action or some prisoners that had to be let free, at least we can be pretty sure the prisoner won't be off too bad.

[Uncle Sam]

Terrorist pussies... :P

[mustamato]

Terrorists my ass. They are combatants and that soldier is a prisoner of war.

[Haiw]

Well no offense, but if they were just forces who were against the US being there, then engaged an army unit in a army-style ambush, and then actually captured someone instead of shooting / mutilating them on the spot, isn't it becoming rather hard to just easily label them as terrorists? Sure, label them as enemies, opposing forces, insurgents or whatever, but so far it looks like they ain't playing dirty.

[Yard Ape]

Why are all the Iraqi's in conflict with the Coalition considered 'terrorists'???
They have taken him as a hostage and will probably torure and kill him sounds like terrorism to me.You don't know that.



Why are all the Iraqi's in conflict with the Coalition considered 'terrorists'???
I don't consider them ALL terrorists
However when you capture people - then threaten to kill them when your demands are not met - that is terrorism. and that's the right answer.


Terrorists my ass. They are combatants and that soldier is a prisoner of war.Also true, but if they abuse the soldier in any way, they are criminals.

[American Patriot]

Supply personnel should be issued M67 frag nades in case they are overrun. Better to take some of the terrorists with you than be captured by those savages.

[khukuri]

Supply personnel should be issued M67 frag nades in case they are overrun. Better to take some of the terrorists with you than be captured by those savages.

yeah idbet you would do it aswell

huh, and what a choice, a frag nade

keep on with softair my friend

[Uncle Sam]

Terrorists my ass. They are combatants and that soldier is a prisoner of war.

Stop, just stop...They are terrorists and he is a hostage! No matter how they treat him!

[big_les]

Terrorists my ass. They are combatants and that soldier is a prisoner of war.

Stop, just stop...They are terrorists and he is a hostage! No matter how they treat him!

I know it makes it easier to label anyone capturing an allied soldier, or even opposing one, a terrorist, but I'm afraid it doesn't make them one. Even if it ties in with Iraq being within the remit of the war on terrorism, that's just a political convenience to call enemy combatants 'terrorists'. It de-humanises them just as people have done to their enemies for thousands of years. Doesn't make it right. Of course, some of the 'combatants' in Iraq have demonstrated that they are worthy of dehumanisation, but the complex nature of the opposing forces in Iraq means we don't know who these people are affiliated to.

As has been said, if the people who captured him were opposing the invasion of Iraq on whatever level, and they haven't mistreated him, they are combatants, insurgents, the enemy.... not terrorists.

[American Patriot]

Supply personnel should be issued M67 frag nades in case they are overrun. Better to take some of the terrorists with you than be captured by those savages.

yeah idbet you would do it aswell

huh, and what a choice, a frag nade

keep on with softair my friend

Without a doubt I would die for my country.

[Yard Ape]

Terrorists my ass. They are combatants and that soldier is a prisoner of war.
Stop, just stop...They are terrorists and he is a hostage! No matter how they treat him!Is it easier to believe that?




Supply personnel should be issued M67 frag nades in case they are overrun. Better to take some of the terrorists with you than be captured by those savages....Without a doubt I would die for my country.even knowing that your dieing effort will likely be ineffectual? It would not be dieing for your country, it would just be suicide.

[TALOS]

What it truly boils down to is historical activities. A group who "captured" 4 italian "prisoners of war" just video taped the "legal punishment" of said "prisoner" for the offensive act of "resisting" by having the gaul to say "watch how an italian dies" <anybody who is too stupid to see all the sarcasm please smash face into wall.
The fact is that many of the prisoners of islamic captors in the past (all over the world) including some in Iraq are brutally murdered to make a point and for the obvious enjoyment of other islamic fanatics (think kavkaz)
Leaves little hope for decent conduct but we all (well, most of us) wish him and the others the best.

[Uncle Sam]

Terrorists my ass. They are combatants and that soldier is a prisoner of war.

Stop, just stop...They are terrorists and he is a hostage! No matter how they treat him!

I know it makes it easier to label anyone capturing an allied soldier, or even opposing one, a terrorist, but I'm afraid it doesn't make them one. Even if it ties in with Iraq being within the remit of the war on terrorism, that's just a political convenience to call enemy combatants 'terrorists'. It de-humanises them just as people have done to their enemies for thousands of years. Doesn't make it right. Of course, some of the 'combatants' in Iraq have demonstrated that they are worthy of dehumanisation, but the complex nature of the opposing forces in Iraq means we don't know who these people are affiliated to.

As has been said, if the people who captured him were opposing the invasion of Iraq on whatever level, and they haven't mistreated him, they are combatants, insurgents, the enemy.... not terrorists.

If they were an Army, I would say he is a POW. But opinions are like a** holes...Everyone has one and they all stink!

[mustamato]

http://*******.feedroom.com

World news - Raw footage. There is the video Al-Jazeera broadcasted. He looks
pretty scared (of course). I say that their offer is pretty realistic. Trade him
against a couple of their friends that are hold by occupation forces. They are
not asking for the impossible.

By the way one of them is holding a FN FAL (with Para stock). Hmmmh, I wonder
if it´s not the same that were seen in the footage from Fallujah were those
contractors were killed. I didn´t even know that the Iraqis were using those,
so there can´t have been all too many of them around in the first place?

http://cache.*****images.com/comp/3284186.jpg?x=x&dasite=MS_GINS&ef=2&ev=1&dareq=B4937501880CAF5262E3E973996BFAB7
Note the stock on the FN FAL

http://i.a.cnn.net/cnn/2004/WORLD/meast/04/16/iraq.main/top.maupin.gunmen.jpg

http://dboy.cpgl.net/fn/fal/64.gif
7,62mm FN FAL 50-64 battle rifle

[Uncle Sam]

By the way one of them is holding a FN FAL (with Para stock). Hmmmh, I wonder
if it´s not the same that were seen in the footage from Fallujah were those
contractors were killed. I didn´t even know that the Iraqis were using those,
so there can´t have been all too many of them around in the first place?

http://cache.*****images.com/comp/3284186.jpg?x=x&dasite=MS_GINS&ef=2&ev=1&dareq=B4937501880CAF5262E3E973996BFAB7
Note the stock on the FN FAL

Ya know it's funny you mention that...I was watchin a news show (Can't remeber which) and I saw one of these dudes walking around with an M249 saw...

[mustamato]

Ya know it's funny you mention that...I was watchin a news show (Can't remeber which) and I saw one of these dudes walking around with an M249 saw...

So? They of course took it from a killed/wounded/whatever US soldier. But
that FAL on the other hand, maybe took it from a contractor. Anyway I guess
there is not all too many insurgents that runs around with those. So it kind of
limits the possibilites, it might be the same dude with the FAL on those two pictures.

[Uncle Sam]

Ya know it's funny you mention that...I was watchin a news show (Can't remeber which) and I saw one of these dudes walking around with an M249 saw...

So? They of course took it from a killed/wounded/whatever US soldier. But
that FAL on the other hand, maybe took it from a contractor. Anyway I guess
there is not all too many insurgents that runs around with those. So it kind of
limits the possibilites, it might be the same dude with the FAL on those two pictures.

So? Maybe they got it from a german. Or maybe a german sent it to him as a gesture of love.

[mustamato]

Ya know it's funny you mention that...I was watchin a news show (Can't remeber which) and I saw one of these dudes walking around with an M249 saw...

So? They of course took it from a killed/wounded/whatever US soldier. But
that FAL on the other hand, maybe took it from a contractor. Anyway I guess
there is not all too many insurgents that runs around with those. So it kind of
limits the possibilites, it might be the same dude with the FAL on those two pictures.

So? Maybe they got it from a german. Or maybe a german sent it to him as a gesture of love.

Ok, that made sense.

[Uncle Sam]

Ya know it's funny you mention that...I was watchin a news show (Can't remeber which) and I saw one of these dudes walking around with an M249 saw...

So? They of course took it from a killed/wounded/whatever US soldier. But
that FAL on the other hand, maybe took it from a contractor. Anyway I guess
there is not all too many insurgents that runs around with those. So it kind of
limits the possibilites, it might be the same dude with the FAL on those two pictures.

So? Maybe they got it from a german. Or maybe a german sent it to him as a gesture of love.

Ok, that made sense.

You...are so...smart!

[Haiw]

Well you gotta admit the 'German' argument about the FALs didn't exactely make sense either... ;)

(P.S. they're made in Belgium)

[Uncle Sam]

Well you gotta admit the 'German' argument about the FALs didn't exactely make sense either... ;)

(P.S. they're made in Belgium)

I know where they are made.

[American Patriot]

We've been in Iraq for a year now of course the Islamist terrorists have picked up 2 or 3 U.S. Weapons.

However, the Military is doing a damn good job sending Jihadists to Allah. There is never a shortage of fresh Jihadist souls at the gates of hell.

[Wilco]

Looks like ****** has both the video tape of the soldier and the italian guy going out Tony Montana style(bravely by the way).

[Korth]

http://i.a.cnn.net/cnn/2004/WORLD/meast/04/16/iraq.main/top.maupin.gunmen.jpg

I guess this means that they will treat him good, and that he didn´t piss them of when captured by resisting all too much.

He is one of those rear echelon types. A pogue, not a fighter. The recruiters likely promised him a nice, safe job in the rear with the gear. I really doubt that he had the mindset for fighting.

Well he is probably going to die like that captured Russian soldier in Chechnia (http://www.*********.com/elements/Chechenya/ofex_h.wmv) unless the US forces can rescue him.

[army cadet_ngcsu]

I'm confident that we'll bring him back alive and rescue him...if nothing else, we can always pray because I will.

[Johnnyringo]

http://i.a.cnn.net/cnn/2004/WORLD/meast/04/16/iraq.main/top.maupin.gunmen.jpg

I guess this means that they will treat him good, and that he didn´t piss them of when captured by resisting all too much.

He is one of those rear echelon types. A pogue, not a fighter. The recruiters likely promised him a nice, safe job in the rear with the gear. I really doubt that he had the mindset for fighting.

Well he is probably going to die like that captured Russian soldier in Chechnia (http://www.*********.com/elements/Chechenya/ofex_h.wmv) unless the US forces can rescue him.


I think you underestimate the "mindset" of those rear echelon types... Drawing similarities between Chechnya and Iraq, is like comparing Afganistan for the Soviets and Afganistan for the Americans... Try again stupid.

[seruriermarshal]

http://i.a.cnn.net/cnn/2004/WORLD/meast/04/16/iraq.main/top.maupin.gunmen.jpg

I guess this means that they will treat him good, and that he didn´t piss them of when captured by resisting all too much.

He is one of those rear echelon types. A pogue, not a fighter. The recruiters likely promised him a nice, safe job in the rear with the gear. I really doubt that he had the mindset for fighting.

Well he is probably going to die like that captured Russian soldier in Chechnia (http://www.*********.com/elements/Chechenya/ofex_h.wmv) unless the US forces can rescue him.

In fact , U.S. troop to the defence of the motorcade, there must have enough M1 and M 2 .

[Skaman]

The theme of terrorism is by no means a new idea amongst the globe and dates back as far the late 1700’s where the origin of the word- ‘terrorisme’ begins. The popular term was first applied by the Jacobins in the reign of terror as a means of achieving political goals through intimidation and violence. Terrorism was primarily applied as a means of instilling fear through the assassination of key political officials, forcing government change. Recent application of terrorism has been used to target civilians, creating panic, still maintaining the objective of political change. However, the actions of the combatants in Iraq are by no means terror; rather they are militia fighting within their nation for a cause which they conceive to be just in accordance with their social norms. Using the word terrorist is a convenient derogatory connotation that individuals use to demean their enemy as a 'lesser' people. Instances of brutality have occurred on both sides of the spectrum in Iraq at the hands of the coalition, and Iraqi movement. This is not terrorism; this is the brutality, and veracity of war. Historically, Japanese soldiers, American soldiers, Iraqi soldiers, German soldiers have all killed enemies within their holding, yet not as a means of 'terrorism', rather this is the result of confusion, and frustration of war. I am pleased to see US soldiers treated well, and their captors adhere to Geneva conventions as they should. However, in the face of war, cruelty and violence are ripe in the face of crowd mentality and collective behavior, particularly among an instable political influential conflict like Iraq. It is not fair of us to call these men 'terrorists'. These are men which risk their lives, and often die fighting for a cause which they see to be morally just. Respect your enemy as you respect your own armed forces.



"If you have some respect for people as they are, you can be more effective in helping them to become better than they are." John W. Gardner

"Being brilliant is no great feat if you respect nothing."
-Johann Wolfgang von Goethe-

Bertrand Russell:
Collective fear stimulates herd instinct, and tends to produce ferocity toward those who are not regarded as members of the herd.

Voltaire:
What is tolerance? -- it is the consequence of humanity. We are all formed of frailty and error; let us pardon reciprocally each other's folly -- that is the first law of nature.

[Kilgor]

I wont call them terrorists the day they start wearing uniforms and stop hiding their faces under ski masks.

Terrorists, pure and simple.

[Johnnyringo]

Hey Duci, great quotes.... I agree with the first and fourth ones, but the 3rd just explains the reactions of those Marines sent to keep the peace within their zones. Yes us Americans just want to protect "our own" but sadly not every country have the morals that the US servicemen have. sending young kids to block convoys for ambushes, using mosques for coordinating and BOF's .... Yes these "rebels" aren't "terrorists"... or even "freedom fighters", but they hardly are fighting for a cause that defends morally just... unless you call wearing a burqa "morally just"

[Johnnyringo]

"However, the actions of the combatants in Iraq are by no means terror; rather they are militia fighting within their nation for a cause which they conceive to be just in accordance with their social norms."

I love how you justify the execution of helpless prisoners as "social norms" as they are NO MEANS TERROR! Hello stupid!

[Johnnyringo]

ter·ror·ist [ térrerist ] (plural ter·ror·ists)

noun

somebody using violence for political purposes: somebody who uses violence or the threat of violence, especially bombing, kidnapping, and assassination, to intimidate, often for political purposes

By that definition, the Coalition would be acting with “terrorism” as they are using violence, threat of violence, bombing, and intimidation all for political purpose.



seems alot like what the "rebels" are doing... grabbing anyone they can for leverage? Am I right?



:cantbeli:

[Johnnyringo]

Sorry to all, Duci pissed me off, had to post my thoughts, hope I raise some thoughts.

[budanski]

What a big surprise. Enemy apologists abound. Your usual suspects.

[TALOS]

What a big surprise. Enemy apologists abound. Your usual suspects.

:roll: makes ya wonder doesnt it!
Hey Duci? what would you say if the natives started kidnapping people and burning them here or cutting their heads off because you foreigners invaded us? Would be pretty stupid wouldnt it.
Think a little beyond your left wing university restricted mentality, these are criminals acting to disrupt all attempts at peacefully rebuilding the country. They arent doing this to help the little Iraqis out they are doing it because they want blood and death, their actions prove that.

[budanski]

Don't waste your breath Talos. You didnt see Duci and the rest of the apologists standing up against Saddam for his use of chemical weapons on civilians and mass graves. But rest assured he'd be the first in line to criticize american foreign policy to take out such dictators. Shows how irrational the left's thinking goes.

[big_les]

Don't waste your breath Talos. You didnt see Duci and the rest of the apologists standing up against Saddam for his use of chemical weapons on civilians and mass graves. But rest assured he'd be the first in line to criticize american foreign policy to take out such dictators. Shows how irrational the left's thinking goes.

Well, I can't speak for anyone else, and I'm fairly new here, but I'm by no means an 'apologist' for the enemy. I support my country's armed forces and that of the whole coalition. I dislike George Bush's policies and Blair's nearl-blind obedience to a foreign (though obviously friendly) power. I think the war was justified for the wrong reasons, and should have been brought about another way if at all. But now we're all there, we have do the best we can to complete the mission and bring as many home as possible. I'm simply pointing out that although the ski-mask brigade might fit the image of the terrorist, it's lazy thinking to dismiss them all as 'terrorists'. I'm not supporting anyone that opposes our forces, particularly not those who employ terrorist tactics that defy common decency and morality. Were it possible, I'd have wanted those scumbags that mutilated the contractors singled out and punished accordingly, but that's just not feasible in the context of present-day Iraq. I'm not sure about the strategies being used to secure places like Fallujah, but I'm not really qualified to comment; whatever gets the job done without stepping over those lines of decency and morality ourselves. I see demonising all elements of the enemy as unacceptable behaviour: the opposing forces are so diverse that its just plain inaccurate to call them all terrorists! Some of them are simply *defending their country*. No matter how we see this as misguided or wrong, they have a right to do so; we were not asked to intervene in Iraq.

Imagine the UK has a radical change of government; say the British National Party (fascists) gets in and in years time unexpectedly starts rounding up those that oppose their views and imprisoning them for their beliefs. Another country, say France, unilaterally invades to oppose the spread of fascism to their own country, without international approval. Despite many Britons wanting the BMP government out, the invading force would face opposition. From those supporting and benefitting from the govnt in power, but also from armed militia opposing French control of Britain. Would these disparate militia groups be regarded as terrorists?

I know this is a facetious non-analogy :) but you see my point. Not all the Iraqis opposing our forces are rabid Islamic terrorists with C4 underpants. As such, we should not refer without thinking to any enemy as a 'terrorist'. It's that kind of thinking that could turn the occupation into something worse; a purely ideological struggle against an ephemeral shadowy enemy.

[Trident-za]

Don't waste your breath Talos. You didnt see Duci and the rest of the apologists standing up against Saddam for his use of chemical weapons on civilians and mass graves. But rest assured he'd be the first in line to criticize american foreign policy to take out such dictators. Shows how irrational the left's thinking goes.

Who exactly do you define as "enemy apologists"? I reckon this forum would serve as a damn good propoganda tool for the fundamentalists at times.... just remember: Al Qaeda is trying to convince muslims that the US is trying to wage war against ALL islamics. If their followers need proof, they just need to come read some of the topics on this forum :(

I support the war on terror 100%. I support the killing of enemy combatants (whether they wear a uniform or not) 100%. This does not mean I agree with all the BS posts made here. I do NOT support treating all Iraqis as terrorists, and I don't support the killing of civilians. I also believe that in some instances, the use of the "big guns" causes more long-term problems than it solves. Remember, the "war on terror" and the objectives on the Iraqi operations are a long-term thing, and ultimately the success and/or failure of both is only going to be judged in 10-20 years time.

So, does this make me an "enemy apologist"?

[wiking]

Why are all the Iraqi's in conflict with the Coalition considered 'terrorists'???


What do you call thugs who kidnap people, wear masks, cary AK's, threaten to mutilate, burn alive, etc...??

...Oh, you call them your bud's...I forgot.

This year they'll have to cancel Halloween, bacuse people who wear masks are terrorists acording to this bugger.
And also the entire Russian army, and all other countries who carry AK's, are terrorists.

[BlackRain]

http://i.a.cnn.net/cnn/2004/WORLD/meast/04/16/iraq.main/top.maupin.gunmen.jpg


"He is in good health and being treated based on the tenets of Islamic law for the treatment of soldiers taken hostage. We will keep him until we trade him for our prisoners in the custody of the U.S. enemy. We want them to know -- and the whole world to know -- that when we took him in, he came out of his tank holding a white flag and he lay face down on the ground, just like other soldiers."

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/04/16/iraq.main/index.html

I guess this means that they will treat him good, and that he didn´t piss them
of when captured by resisting all too much.


do we know what cind of moslems this is, sunni or shia? which are fallujah?

This statement by the Islamic fundamentalists is a lie.

Pfc. Keith Matthew Maupin is of the 1st Division assigned to the Army Reserve's 724th Transportation Company

He was driving a truck in a supply convoy. He is not a tanker and was not detailed to any tanks.

It is amazing that many of you folks eagerly swallow the insurgents load without even checking the facts.

Bias.

[Uncle Sam]

Why are all the Iraqi's in conflict with the Coalition considered 'terrorists'???


What do you call thugs who kidnap people, wear masks, cary AK's, threaten to mutilate, burn alive, etc...??

...Oh, you call them your bud's...I forgot.

This year they'll have to cancel Halloween, bacuse people who wear masks are terrorists acording to this bugger.
And also the entire Russian army, and all other countries who carry AK's, are terrorists.

Go ahead and take this out of context....As usual. You jump in here at the end of everything making a judgement call. Because I know you are not too bright...It was a referral to the people in the picture, holding the G.I.. :bash:

[big_les]

http://i.a.cnn.net/cnn/2004/WORLD/meast/04/16/iraq.main/top.maupin.gunmen.jpg


"He is in good health and being treated based on the tenets of Islamic law for the treatment of soldiers taken hostage. We will keep him until we trade him for our prisoners in the custody of the U.S. enemy. We want them to know -- and the whole world to know -- that when we took him in, he came out of his tank holding a white flag and he lay face down on the ground, just like other soldiers."

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/04/16/iraq.main/index.html

I guess this means that they will treat him good, and that he didn´t piss them
of when captured by resisting all too much.


do we know what cind of moslems this is, sunni or shia? which are fallujah?

This statement by the Islamic fundamentalists is a lie.

Pfc. Keith Matthew Maupin is of the 1st Division assigned to the Army Reserve's 724th Transportation Company

He was driving a truck in a supply convoy. He is not a tanker and was not detailed to any tanks.

It is amazing that many of you folks eagerly swallow the insurgents load without even checking the facts.

Bias.

That's just the point, at least its my point; I wasn't in possession of the full facts and neither were the 'burn the terrorists' brigade (we still aren't). It was the labellers who first implied that all Iraqi resistance was terrorist in nature. Some people argued that we should reserve judgement, and now we have another petty slanging match going. We're all on the same side here, and for us all here at least its a minor semantic issue. But labelling of Iraqi opposition this way perpetuates the 'us against them' mentality towards Islam full stop. I just think people are worried that we're disregarding a whole country as either grateful bootlickers or Al Qaeda funded terrorists, when this is far from a black-and-white situation.

I could be wrong, but I get the impression from threads like this that anyone that says anything contrary to 'hoo-ah, lets kill the rag-head' is at least viewed with suspicion, if not flamed right off the board. I know you have your posters who are set against the war on every level, and don't seem too concerned about our servicemen and women, but we aren't all like that. Some of us have genuine reasoned opinions we'd like to share without getting our heads bitten off by overly defensive types.

[NcDeuce]

'hoo-ah, lets kill the rag-head'

Hooah...good

Raghead...bad

Is it not in the guidelines somewhere about having to refrain from using terms like raghead?

Horse manure aside, those guys better release the prisoners or they are going to get lit up.

[usa320]

We better get him back alive.

And im really starting to think that taking al jazeera off the air would deal a significant blow to the terrorists.

They cant use phones, or radios, or email. Their only safe way to send messages on a mass scale is by using TV. Taking al jazeera offline would kill their only method of mass communication.

[wiking]

Terrorists my ass. They are combatants and that soldier is a prisoner of war.

Stop, just stop...They are terrorists and he is a hostage! No matter how they treat him!

How can pople be this stupid, taking prisoners and ransoming them back has been done for 100's of years before we even knew about the continent we today call america.
if this is the way it's gonna be in the future that anyone who captures an US soldier in a war are terrorists, and since they aren't americans they must be torturing or atleast mistreting him. But all prisoners taken by america recives a cosy littel cell more like a hotel than a POW cage.
Seriously, do we know how people is treated at Guantanamo bay, is there anyone who's not a biased yank who can tell me how it's like there.

[American Patriot]

Shut up Euro-weenie. :lol:

[Fintin]

Shut up Euro-weenie. :lol:

see now that was mean....appologize...im not kidding ill call your mother

[NcDeuce]

Seriously, do we know how people is treated at Guantanamo bay, is there anyone who's not a biased yank who can tell me how it's like there.

Guantanamo Bay...food, showers, shelter
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/facility/images/guantanamo-bay_flthosp-20_020129-a-5408k-001.jpg

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/facility/images/guantanamo-bay_flthosp-20_020129-a-5408k-003.jpg

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/facility/images/guantanamo-bay_x-ray020121n_4716p_04.jpg

Afghanistan...
http://www.presidentmoron.com/cavesearch.jpg

http://cnn.com.ru/2001/US/12/13/ret.frontlines.facts/story.al.qaeda.cave.jpg

http://www.maltamedia.com/news/US-attack/pix/Afghanistan-taliban-execution.jpg

http://www.maltamedia.net/gallery/categories/Special_Events/media/afgnanistan-taliban-prisoners1.jpg

:roll:

[Luxembourger]

I have a bad feeling , since the US will not exchange captured iraqis, the hostage takers will execute him .

watching the pciture of the captured American , it makes me sick, I have the same feeling in my heart as if someone of my family would soon die..

hopefully the boy will survive ,,,,but I really doubt concerning the situation right now in Iraq. :( :( :(

[TALOS]

Terrorists my ass. They are combatants and that soldier is a prisoner of war.

Stop, just stop...They are terrorists and he is a hostage! No matter how they treat him!

How can pople be this stupid, taking prisoners and ransoming them back has been done for 100's of years before we even knew about the continent we today call america.
if this is the way it's gonna be in the future that anyone who captures an US soldier in a war are terrorists, and since they aren't americans they must be torturing or atleast mistreting him. But all prisoners taken by america recives a cosy littel cell more like a hotel than a POW cage.
Seriously, do we know how people is treated at Guantanamo bay, is there anyone who's not a biased yank who can tell me how it's like there.
Cmon wiking, the US isnt going to exchange "individuals" who have been captured or arrested under charges or suspicians of being linked to terrrorists or in the process of engaging Coalition troops to get captured americans back. That would be negotiating with "terrorists".(kidnapping and threatening to kill captured prisoners)
And regardless of their reason for fighting the US they are the enemy. You seem to think that the US should be really nice to the "individuals" attacking and killing them who only do it cuz they want them out but arent "really" terrorists in YOUR opinion.
If they are killing US troops they arent friendlies and if they arent friendlies they will be demonized, its the nature of war and necessary. Should the US be having reports on how nice all these insurgents were before when they only killed the shia but treated other sunnis nicely (sometimes) :cantbeli:
I will repeat "IF THEY ARE ATTACKING AND KILLING AND KIDNAPPING THEN THEY ARE THE ENEMY REGARDLESS OF THE NAME YOU CALL THEM"
And I and others never said kill ALL the Iraqis, you talk about lumping into groups and yet you do the same thing.

[Uncle Sam]

Terrorists my ass. They are combatants and that soldier is a prisoner of war.

Stop, just stop...They are terrorists and he is a hostage! No matter how they treat him!

How can pople be this stupid, taking prisoners and ransoming them back has been done for 100's of years before we even knew about the continent we today call america.
if this is the way it's gonna be in the future that anyone who captures an US soldier in a war are terrorists, and since they aren't americans they must be torturing or atleast mistreting him. But all prisoners taken by america recives a cosy littel cell more like a hotel than a POW cage.
Seriously, do we know how people is treated at Guantanamo bay, is there anyone who's not a biased yank who can tell me how it's like there.

Thanks to NCcDeuce...Yes, yes we can...Now stfu!

[wiking]

First i'd like to apologize if anyone was offended, and i'd like to point out that i was only trying to get another angle on it and not the `kill all Iraqi's`angle some people here have. (And don't start something on this to, you all know there are a few guys her who think like that)

Let me also point out that they have not in any way threatened to kill this particular soldier, but they have said they are holding him as a POW and are treating him acording to their laws about treatment on POW's. And we've allready had a whole discussion on that topic to, and if you check it out you'll see that they all don't treat them bad.

Saying that they treat him bad just because they'r Iraqi's and Muslims is like me saying YOU torture the prisoners on Guantanamo Bay just because you're Americans. (And i really didn't notice any prisoners on those pictures by the way)

The difference between "Terrorists" or "insurgents" and legal combatants is big, but not easy to see in a country like this. They may not be carrying what we think of as uniforms, but a legal combatant only needs something like an arm patch or a specific coulor on any piece of chloting to identify themself as legal combatants.
As an example the norwegian army field manual states that an arm patch with the norwegian flag is suficient identification for combatants without uniform.

And to point out a historic fact, the Germans called the partisan groups who operated behind their lines in Russia during most of WW2 for terrorist.
These groups wore uniforms, but were still sumarily executed as illegal combatants, to use a modern word.
And they did exactly what the Iraqi's are doing, mainly attacking suply columns behind the lines.

Yes, some of the Iraqi's are using terrosist tactics, but clearly some are not and are fighting in what we can call the legal way. Someone said we should stop judging the coalition forces and start judging the Iraqi's, but if we do this we also should recognice the ones among the Iraqi's who fight legally. I have great respect for ALL men and women who wear they're countries uniform. And i don't support terrorist, but i live in a country that has been occupied and i know what feelings that can produce and i don't think bad of them for fighting an occupation.

And for you to think that they were not going to resist is just plain stupid.
and we should atlest have the dignity to call them resistance fighters.

I think that i have presented this in a civil and calm way, and really hope that you can respond to this in the same way, because a **** tossing between americans and europeans is not a usefull, informative and interesting discussion wich is what this place is all about. Or so have i allways believed.

[Uncle Sam]

Well said.

[TALOS]

I respect the points you made in a reasoned way there wiking, and I agree in part although I will make one counterpoint

Let me also point out that they have not in any way threatened to kill this particular soldier, but they have said they are holding him as a POW and are treating him acording to their laws about treatment on POW's. And we've allready had a whole discussion on that topic to, and if you check it out you'll see that they all don't treat them bad.

Saying that they treat him bad just because they'r Iraqi's and Muslims is like me saying YOU torture the prisoners on Guantanamo Bay just because you're Americans. (And i really didn't notice any prisoners on those pictures by the way)
Although we have not seen that this soldier was mistreated in the video, the difference between the Iraqis and islamist EXTREMISTS and the US treatment of prisoners in Guantanomo is this, the former have a history of killing quite brutally their prisoners and the US doesnt, (not as an accepted practice anyway altho I am sure that some exceptions to any rule could be found)
But generally I see where you are coming from and just think that that is great for you but Americans have to deal with them all as the enemy and cant afford to portray them as "good old boys just defending the little people" as that just doesnt fit the reality.

[wiking]

Yes the americans of course has to treat all who attack them as the enemy, but there should really be a seperation between the extremists and the legal combatants fighting an occupation, since the laws and rules of war surrounding the two different classifications are quite opposite.

Yes they have a past of executing prisoners, but so has every country in the world from the day man began to fight each other, and there has only been attempts to change this in the last 100 years or so.

Feeding prisoners is a costly effort, and to a medieval warlord this would be a waste of mony and most importent food for his troops if the prisoners could not be enslaved. But the Islamic laws on how to treat prisoners of war are very strict, and i really hope that they will treat him well because that may be a step towards recognising legal combatants in Iraq. But if they kill him i'm not going to argue to spare their lives, the yanks are welcome to cook their balls and feed em to them if they want.

The fact is that history is written in blood, and i'm not trying to deny that.
But to use the history of a country or religion against them today is not really viable.

Christianity is a large reason why history is written in blood.
And to point out Bush says God in like every other sentance in his speaches, and Allah means God so i don't why people get all excited when Muslims say Allah. (just a funny littel fact)

[Uninen]

I hope they find him before the terrorists kill him.

About this i 100% agree, i mean its ok to take POW:s and hope (blackmail / hold them for) some money or prisoner exhange, but its over the limit when they treathen to kill the prisoners when and if they dont get what they want........

Taking somebodys freedom is one thing, but taking somebodys freedom and then killing that prisoner when the things dont go the captors way is BS. (IE in connection with unrealistic demands........)

Should not happen..

[TALOS]

Yes the americans of course has to treat all who attack them as the enemy, but there should really be a seperation between the extremists and the legal combatants fighting an occupation, since the laws and rules of war surrounding the two different classifications are quite opposite.

Yes they have a past of executing prisoners, but so has every country in the world from the day man began to fight each other, and there has only been attempts to change this in the last 100 years or so.

Feeding prisoners is a costly effort, and to a medieval warlord this would be a waste of mony and most importent food for his troops if the prisoners could not be enslaved. But the Islamic laws on how to treat prisoners of war are very strict, and i really hope that they will treat him well because that may be a step towards recognising legal combatants in Iraq. But if they kill him i'm not going to argue to spare their lives, the yanks are welcome to cook their balls and feed em to them if they want.

The fact is that history is written in blood, and i'm not trying to deny that.
But to use the history of a country or religion against them today is not really viable.

Christianity is a large reason why history is written in blood.
And to point out Bush says God in like every other sentance in his speaches, and Allah means God so i don't why people get all excited when Muslims say Allah. (just a funny littel fact)

Very good points and I agree in principle again. This point
But to use the history of a country or religion against them today is not really viable. however fails to recognize that I was meaning recent history not ancient history. But I definately agree mostly with your position in that post.