US Army 2015: How would you do it?

[Hellfish]

I've been hearing a lot about the impending death of the FCS program lately, which has only increased since the cancellation of the Land Warrior (http://www.defensetech.org/archives/003044.html) and the possibility that the new Defense chief will want to save money by killing the FCS entirely.

Let's suppose that on Jan 1st, the FCS program is killed and you're put in charge of making the US Army of 2015. What would you do, how would you do it, how would you fund it and what do you see the key necessities of the 2015 force as? Take into account the lessons of Iraq, Afghanistan, Somalia, Haiti, Bosnia and even Lebanon - or any other contemporary war. Also take into account potential future wars and current trends in warfare.

Eight years doesn't give you a whole lot of time, so don't go thinking you can just whip up a whole new fleet of tanks and armored vehicles from thin air. If you're gonna go that route, you need to consider a realistic way of doing it.

I'll hold off on my ideas for now...

[ZaakM433]

I would start trying to find funding, and then when I found it I would try to start the FCS program back up.

It's a stupid answer I know, but there just isn't an easy way to do it. We need the FCS program to keep any semblance of a technological edge on the modern battlefield. Most military programs take 8 years just to get started let alone see any progress.

[Paul in Saudi2]

Establish a strong regionally-oriented system of regiments. Battalions of the regiment in the Guard/Reserve, in the AC. Battalions on the force and in the training base. A soldier ought to be able to live out his career in one regiment.

Give it a century or so and we ought to really have something.

[AllAmerican]

Make all the Army doggies go through USMC Recruit Training and consolidate/increase all funding and equipment to the Corps.

[Hellfish]

I.E. turn the Marines into the Army? One of the best things the Marines have going for them is their small numbers and small budget.

[AllAmerican]

I.E. turn the Marines into the Army? One of the best things the Marines have going for them is their small numbers and small budget.

No wai! Marines --> Army? Get out of town!

I was just kidding though. I honestly don't know what i would do to rectify the hypothetical situation. I've got no Army experience. I'm honestly happy with the way the Army is doing its thing, at least everything looks like it's going according to plan.

I don't ever see the Army to not be the huge, slower juggernaught that it always has been.

[wicked_hind]

Create a more revised doctrine on urban warfare, more training in combatting terrorism and counter-insurgency, better and harder intelligence, larger numbers of smaller utility helicopters like the LUH program to supplement larger and more expensive types, and I can't think of anything else at this time.

[el borracho]

The branches of the US have always had a "jack of all trades" approach. This has caused our Air Force and Navy (therefore Marines too) to become hugely bloated and drain resources. Elmintate any AFSC's/MOSs/rates, whatever, that don't pertain directly to the needs of that branch. i.e. Navy personnel work in, on, or around ships, Air Force works in, on, around aircraft. The Marines should be streamlined into a smaller "infantry-only" force that works much closer with the Navy, rather than their current role of elite super-troopers.

Another way to limit unnecessary spending is to consolidate the combat uniforms (MARPAT minus the EGA for all!). R&D costs on each service developing the 'ultimate camo' would be cut.

The regiment system is kind of like what the National Guard is supposed to be. Keep active duty for brunt of combat and frontline stuff, then call in the reservists and Nat'l Guard only when necessary. This would keep them free in case of natural disasters, and they could also assist their state with matters unique to it, i.e border patrol for those states along the border, augment port security for those on a coastline, etc.

In a perfect world, we could limit the 'police actions' and indefinite occupations that we're involved in and have a shorter deployment schedule and units trained for a more 'rapid-reaction' style of deployment, get in, get it done, get out. But like I said, in a perfect world...

[Ratamacue]

The branches of the US have always had a "jack of all trades" approach. This has caused our Air Force and Navy (therefore Marines too) to become hugely bloated and drain resources. Elmintate any AFSC's/MOSs/rates, whatever, that don't pertain directly to the needs of that branch. i.e. Navy personnel work in, on, or around ships, Air Force works in, on, around aircraft. The Marines should be streamlined into a smaller "infantry-only" force that works much closer with the Navy, rather than their current role of elite super-troopers.The Marines would never go for this. One of the things they have going for them isn't just their ability to deploy quickly to hotspots as needed, but the ability to to be completely self-sufficient on the ground with their own infantry, SOF, armor, artillery, helicopters, fighters, and force service support. This is what makes the Marine Expeditionary Unit such a potent force.

[8thidpathfinderpower]

In a more realistic approach, this is what I would do...I would cut funding to the land warrior and FCS programs. The land warrior is a novel idea on paper, but it makes the army too reliant on computers and technology, which will never replace the human componet. On the FCS, I would keep the new howitzer, and cancel the rest. The vehicles are designed to be too lightly armored and not enough fire power. I would invest heavily in keeping the M1 and Bradley updated and ready. These two systems are what makes up the backbone of the army. I would field more M113 and the newest varients. This shoud have been done in the first place. And, with add on armor, and beefed up suspension, it would be cheaper than the Stryker. The aviation assets...I would cancel the UH145, and instead go with a modrenized huey.

[el borracho]

The Marines would never go for this. One of the things they have going for them isn't just their ability to deploy quickly to hotspots as needed, but the ability to to be completely self-sufficient on the ground with their own infantry, SOF, armor, artillery, helicopters, fighters, and force service support. This is what makes the Marine Expeditionary Unit such a potent force.

I know that, and I'm not doubting the ability of the USMC. I'm just saying that as a way to cut costs, some of those extra resources could be trimmed. Most marine forces of other countries don't maintain that type of capability, but I know that "the Corps" has a proud history of being #1 and are hell-bent on keeping it that way.

[Hellfish]

Remember, you're reforming the Army, not the Marines.

[Ratamacue]

I don't know if I agree with abolishing FCS completely, but it definitely needs to be overhauled. Like AllAmerican, I'm not sure that this concept of a more rapidly-deployable, "lightweight" force is really the right direction. While low-intensity conflict and counter-insurgency certainly seems like the way of the future at this time, the ability to wage conventional warfare shouldn't be compromised. Additionally, alot of the rapid-deployment concepts seem to have failed miserably (e.g. Strykers deployable by C-130).

I'm by no means an expert in this field, but my opinion is that FCS has alot of promise in some areas, specifically battlefield networking. But some things like squad-level UAVs and UGVs just seem superfluous and ridiculous. So to sum up what I think:

- The Abrams and Bradley are excellent vehicles, but they'll need to be replaced someday. Instead of this idea of lightweight AFVs protected primarily by active defenses, keep heavy armor and supplement it with active defenses. I'd say to prioritize the creation of a new ICV over a new MBT though.
- Create a replacement or major upgrade for the Humvee. In other words, something along the lines of a Humvee, with a more powerful engine, and a "modular" armor kit that can be added/removed as the situation dictates.
- Keep the Future Force Warrior program. Issue the more advanced computerized/networking bits to team/squad leaders and above--your average grunt doesn't need to be distracted by it. And even if you're skeptical of the advanced parts of FFW, the program is developing some advancements in uniform/armor to improve protection, comfort, and mobility.

If you ask me, the motto of the entire transformation should be "baby steps." Looking at FCS, it seems like the brass has this vision that with a snap of the fingers, by 2020, the Army's equipment and fighting doctrine will be completely changed over. Not going to happen, especially at the pace and costs at which systems are being developed.

[BloodyTalon]

Two words: Metal Gear p-)

J/K. I would actually take the some of the ideas of FCS. Maybe i've been playing too much GRAW, but the idea of integrating our forces onto a single network sounds smart. It will make intelligence and command easier. However, I would put a lot of funding into securing the network from hackers and hardening it from any interference such as EMPs.

As for armored units I'd call for a major, major upgrade of the vehicles we have already and give them the latest technology such as active defense systems. But when there is a need for new armored units I would have the creation of three modular chasis instead of one. A fast light chasis (Stryker replacement) for fast attack, and asymmetrical warfare. A better armed and armored heavy Chasis (Abrams replacement) for symmetrical warfare and heavy asymmetrical warfare, and a jack-of-all-trades medium chasis (Bradley replacement) for APCs and to assume the roles of the former two if needed. I'd also have a modular scout system to replace the Humvee that can be modified with different weapons and armor and tech for different situations.

I'd also follow the same strategy with helicopters; giving them heavy upgrades and researching into replacements for a later time.


Finally, I'd issue the army MARPAT. I like ACUs, but I really don't see them working in a woodland or jungle environment.

[Hardy]

I would cut programs like the NMD, and invest much more money into the army.
I would try to solve the recruting problem to increase the number of available soldiers and reduce the number of NG and Resrevists in combat operations.

I think M1s and Bradleys should be upgraded but stay in service (for the next 8 years, ->topic!!). I would buy german Dingos and Fenneks (both with upgrades for urban warfare) to assist the Stryker and to replace the Humvees.

I think the Apaches are great, to replace the older Blackhawks i would buy Sikorsky S92 or NH90. The smaller Kiowas should be replaced by more powerful EC 145, equipped with more armor and self defence.

I think networking is great, programs in ths direction should proceed, but with a strong budget control.

In consumption: The available money should be invested to safe souldiers lifes. Useless Rummy programs should be checked and in case canceld.

I want to see a strong and powerfull Army again, not overstretched and close to collapse!

[AllAmerican]

Remember, you're reforming the Army, not the Marines.

hahaha! look at what i did! ADD ftw!

[el borracho]

Remember, you're reforming the Army, not the Marines.

Exactly, by the Marines downsizing it would force the Army to pick up the slack in that area. And it's not just the Army that needs reform. If we're gonna play make believe and be the new SecDef, then I wouldn't just stop at the Army.

[California Joe]

I would infuse all of their skeletons with adamantium.

[MoFo]

Highly intelligent robots will lead our future.

http://www.break.com/index/down_goes_asimo.html

p-)

[Flavius22]

bring out the droids
http://www.dutch-starwars.com/database/droids/pics/super_battle_droid.jpg

[Hellfish]

OK, here are my ideas:

1. Get rid of the divisions. Yeah, everyone says we have BCTs now but for all the lip service we give 'em, we still treat and deploy them as divisions. All brigades get their own designation and their own unit patch. No more "4th Brigade of the 25th Infantry Division". It's now the 11th Airborne Brigade and inheirets the history of that division. Same for all the other brigades.

2. Ressurect the M1 Abrams casemate turrets. Autoloading 120mm gun in a low profile turret. Saves weight and improved crew protection and suvivability. Investigate the potential for replacing turbine engines with hybrid electric engines (which exist today in some form). Likewise for the Bradley. Immediate fielding of TUSK kits for tanks as well as active protection systems.

3. Cut the FCS. If anything can be fielded within three years, it can be reviewed to receive continued funding.

4. New R&D concentrates on updated BFT, NETFIRES and battalion/brigade level unmanned vehicles. Co-develop next generation MBT/AFVs with UK/Australia/Canada and/or other NATO partners (like JSF). Spread the costs around.

5. Training focus on urban warfare across the board.

6. Light infantry goes back to classic light infantry roles.

7. Humvee replacement to be fielded within two years.

8. Form "Stability" brigades, with mixes of engineers, MPs, civil affairs and intel troops. Designed to be used in operations other than war in lieu of combat troops. Primary mission is to develop and secure infrastructure in "occupied" countries. Not unlike the PRTs in Afghanistan today. 2-3 brigades on active duty, 3-4 more in the Guard/Reserves.

[LaoSexMachine]

I would infuse all of their skeletons with adamantium.

Best idea so far and replace the the M92 for the 1911.

[exarmyguard]

I would buy swedish cv90 tracked family of vehicles. I would put 105mm or 120mm guns on the chassis and designate them light tanks. I would put 35mm or 40mm guns on the infantry fighting vehicles. I would put twin 120mm mortars on other chassis. Of course, I would round it out by having support vehicles based on the same chassis. I would put all the nice GPS and satallite data link stuff inside. Then I would give the infantry a decent rifle and squad automatic in a 6mm or 7mm round. Then I would buy Mi-26 helicopters to lift the cv90's and the infantry anywhere they needed to go. With the billions left over, I would have a big cookout for everyone in the USA.

[Steel21]

Make all the Army doggies go through USMC Recruit Training and consolidate/increase all funding and equipment to the Corps.

Unfortunately, with increase funding and manpower comes political baggage. If you increase the size of USMC, you will end up with a compromise between Army and USMC, which cannot be futher called "The Few, the Proud".

There is no real need for the FCS. Immediate deployability will be made obselecent with the advent of the return to the Powell odctine post Iraq.

I'd rather we rely on overwhelming nuclear response as a deterent to any unconventional threat.

Another possiblility is evolving a foreign legion of professionals not beholden to idealistic/ career/ family concerns.

This should reduce our defense needs by at least 33%.

[Steel21]

OK, here are my ideas:

1. Get rid of the divisions. Yeah, everyone says we have BCTs now but for all the lip service we give 'em, we still treat and deploy them as divisions. All brigades get their own designation and their own unit patch. No more "4th Brigade of the 25th Infantry Division". It's now the 11th Airborne Brigade and inheirets the history of that division. Same for all the other brigades.

2. Ressurect the M1 Abrams casemate turrets. Autoloading 120mm gun in a low profile turret. Saves weight and improved crew protection and suvivability. Investigate the potential for replacing turbine engines with hybrid electric engines (which exist today in some form). Likewise for the Bradley. Immediate fielding of TUSK kits for tanks as well as active protection systems.

3. Cut the FCS. If anything can be fielded within three years, it can be reviewed to receive continued funding.

4. New R&D concentrates on updated BFT, NETFIRES and battalion/brigade level unmanned vehicles. Co-develop next generation MBT/AFVs with UK/Australia/Canada and/or other NATO partners (like JSF). Spread the costs around.

5. Training focus on urban warfare across the board.

6. Light infantry goes back to classic light infantry roles.

7. Humvee replacement to be fielded within two years.

8. Form "Stability" brigades, with mixes of engineers, MPs, civil affairs and intel troops. Designed to be used in operations other than war in lieu of combat troops. Primary mission is to develop and secure infrastructure in "occupied" countries. Not unlike the PRTs in Afghanistan today. 2-3 brigades on active duty, 3-4 more in the Guard/Reserves.


Best ideas I've read so far!

When Iraq ends, we will have spent so much there, that we may see a revisit of the Carter years when drastic cuts were the norm of the day.

May I also recommend selling the used HUMVEEs to civilans and allies.

ON A SIDE NOTE: I DONT KNOW HOW I BECAME DUMBARSE OF THE WEEK FOR 2 WEEKS, I CANT EVEN FIND THE THREAD THAT CHOSE ME. I DONT EVEN KNOW WHO TO ASK TO REPEAL

[usa320]

I agree with just about everyone here in that something needs to be done about the Humvee... its just not suitable for the role its being used in in the threat environment its being used in.

[digrar]

ON A SIDE NOTE: I DONT KNOW HOW I BECAME DUMBARSE OF THE WEEK FOR 2 WEEKS, I CANT EVEN FIND THE THREAD THAT CHOSE ME. I DONT EVEN KNOW WHO TO ASK TO REPEAL

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=98072&highlight=dumbarse+Steel21

You get to keep the title untill we get around to taking it off you.

[Alex_All_Alone]

Complete and Total Re-Structuring of the Military.

Buh-bye Marines, Army, Airforce and Navy. Well, not completely. I'd leave the Navy pretty much intact, because their mission is completely different than the Army/Marines/Airforce mission. The navy would be entirely Strategic in my world. If its a Strategic Asset - its Navy.

If its a Tactical Asset, its Army. Sorry marines, you disappear. Instead of 4 different training commands, i'd have two. Naval Warfare, and Land Warfare. Soldiers would train to leave the landing craft and start doing the bloody business on land.

I would close down a number of military posts in middle america, and move them to the Mexico border. The entire border with Mexico would become an impact area. Troops would sweep through there interdicting illiegals, finding drug tunnels and destroying them. Illiegals would be either turned around, or if they got violent, blown away. Soldiers would be trained to deal with scared civilians, and they would pracitce it every damn day.

All those REMF billets that are filled by lifers? Gone. If you're not a trigger-puller, you're useless in the Army of Alex. Finance - better handled by civilians. Medical - same. Dental - never met a military dentist that i liked. Admin - civilians can do it better. Even JAG. Its all gone. Stripped down to Armor, Cavalry, Infantry, Artillery, and Military Police.

I would open up the "American Foreign Legion" - if you're not a US Citizen, you can enlist to serve in the AFL for 10 years, and through that service become a US Citizen. US Born Officers and selected NCO's would serve as Officers in the AFL (the NCO would be breveted to Officer status for the duration of service with the AFL).

The job of the Military isnt playing world police. or helping people in Jerkwateristan rebuild after a disaster. The job of the military is kicking down doors and killing people. The violent end of politics. So we couldnt talk it out with you? fine, we'll beat it into you. Quickly and with overwhelming force. and if your neighbor dosent like it, well **** them too, let them come out swinging. we're not here to make friends, or win hearts and minds. we're in the business of making the best of a horrible situation, and do it with such overwhelming force that nobody wants to pick a fight.

Lets take Fallujah for example. In the 2015 Army of Alex, when the city rises up and rebels, i drop leaflets that say "surrender or die". if they dont surrender, 72 hours after the first leaflet hits the ground, artillery and bombs start landing until the place is leveled and I can build a new city on the rubble. No questions. No negotiations. no hiding in a mosque. No media. Nothing. No survivors.

Lets say Iran gets crazy in 2015, I park a couple boomers and a battleship off the coast of Iran and send a warning. Cut it out, or my 18inch diplomacy opens up. If you think its smart to shoot back, i'll glass half your nation before breakfast. And then I'll eat scrambled eggs with a hint of cheese, along with a big glass of orange juice. Then the Navy can glass the other half of your nation. I think the world needed a giant relfection pool in the middle of the middle east anyway. Russia dosent like it? Let them lodge a complaint, if they want to do something about it, well . . . .. we just might rumble. Hope they realize that President Alex dosent wear kid gloves, and he's fully ready to get down and dirty with the bloody business.

President Alex has been on the Sharp End. He knows that no soldier WANTS to do the bloody business. He knows that its the last resort. He knows that when its time to do it, its time to get down to it, and win. Hard, and Fast with No Remorse and No Pity.

[Seiyuuki]

7. Humvee replacement to be fielded within two years.Whatever the replacement might be, in big, bold, bright lettering on that thing, DO NOT ATTEMPT TO TREAT IT AS A TANK, etc.

[Van Gogh]

i would pour more funding into that new apc thats supposed to be helo transportable and very fast and holds 9 soldiers. it even rides on undeflatable wheels that reinflate on command. that sucker is badass. we need something like that. its faster, and more lighter than the m113. only problem is it lacks a manned turret but the computer operated one that stores separately should not be a problem. it kinda looks like the apc off aliens.

next move id invest in lighter body armor and a new combat boot to where every US soldier will be capable of sprinting without sacrificing protection. the gear should be more form fitting, less cumbersome, rely on a zipper, and offer neck protection as well. also made of flak material, with body armor placements inside, to be made of an entirely new material that offers bullet protection yet is lighter than the current ceramics. similar to the flak vests the marines wear now.

[raider65]

I remember after Desert Storm, The Army wanted to get rid of Delta Force, Airborne and Rangers and have the Marine Corps handed over to them as their Special Forces. The Marine Corps is the only force with all capability, Air, Sea, Land. I remember The Corps prepositioned ships getting taken over by the Army because they showed up with only their cammies and rifles because the Air Force was d*cking around with their supplies. It wasn't a high priority to the Air Dales. As for shrinking the Corps, they did that when I was in and all it did was make me do 4 to 5 jobs at one time that were supposed to have their own warm bodies because the duties had to be done and actually cuts ability to preform missions. A really good vest is Crytek Precision but they have to be form fitted. Also they make neck guards with inserts and a belt that has ceramic disk inserts to protect the kidney area. The Marine Corps gets the least to do the most and has for so long that they are now expected to do the impossible with nothing. I'd take 1/8 of Air Force budget, 1/6 of the Army's budget, 1/4 of the Navy budget and give it to the Corps. Here's why: The Marines take the land, the Army holds it, the Navy's the taxi to get there and the Air Force is the Bell Hops to bring in the supplies. Make the Marines more of a force and shrink the others. The Marines are the only force that returns a portion of their budget every year as a point of honor. The other Forces infalate their budgets to get more toys. And thats my 2 cents.

[Chops]

Are you smoking crack? Post any more dribble and you're a rapidly fading memory.

[ArmyJonHall]

I remember after Desert Storm, The Army wanted to get rid of Delta Force, Airborne and Rangers and have the Marine Corps handed over to them as their Special Forces. The Marine Corps is the only force with all capability, Air, Sea, Land.
..... what? Where the hell are you pulling this from?

[Chops]

From his arse...

[8thidpathfinderpower]

I am going to revise a little of what I would do for the army in 2015.

First, I would cancel everything in the FCS except the new howitzer. The notion of a lighter vehicle with active defenses is just that, a notion. Although active defenses are a novel idea on paper, do they really work? Just remember that if it broadcast over the airwaves, it can be jammed. Same for the future force warrior program. Computers, and radios with the capability to transmit real time soldier posistions and intel again is a novel idea, but again, if it broadcasts over the airwaves, it can be tracked and jammed. Nothing like being a squad leader and being cut off from support as you are calling in CAS/Artillery. Compters, although becoming more reliable, do present a great threat, especiall if they would get attacked by viruses and jamming. And what about reliability? Nothing like having your battery conk out while online and doing something.

Now, for the FCS. Bad idea. Light vehicles are not the way to go for HBT or any other type of armored units. I would rely on instead, of modrenizing the M1 abrahms and the M2 bradley family of vehicles. These 2 work horses are by far the best systems in the Army. Able to take a licking and keep on ticking, these offer what no other proposed sysyem can offer...mobility, and protection. Even the grand Stryker, with is cage armor would still not have enough armor in a future battle field.

I would keep the Stryker vehicles at proposed and current levels. Good vehicle, but again, too lightly armored. Keeping the vehicles in the current roles as a follow on vehicle to light infantry units, is a good idea.

Stopping the delivery of the UH72 Latoka. This helo should not have been bought in the first place. Instead, the modrenized UH1 Huey II is a great canidate. Proven. And, with a 4 bladed main rotar and improved transmission and engine, still can out perform most current helicopters. The Uh60 Blackhawk is another aircraft that needs modrenization, and should be kept in service until a suitable replacement can be devoloped. I would keep the CH/MH47 as is.

I would raise the pay of my soldiers. I would purchase an improved indivual weapon. The current M4/M16 family of weapons, although doing the job, are not enough. I would instead standardize the SCAR and give it to the whole army. With its modularity, it would replace 3 types of weapons. And, I would switch to 7.62x39mm ammo. Alot of enemy units use this ammo, and with it being readily avialable, and the stopping power, good choice. And, I would keep the M14 in service alot longer.

These are the changes Iwould make.

[unpredictable]

First i cut the FCS like many of u,secondly upgrade the Abrams and Bradley possibly the armor reenforcement,more powerfull engines and suspension and creating a new light tank (some close to sheridan)using some bradley and abrams parts to do it .I would keep the Stryker and upgrade the m113, engines,suspension and remote control weapon,to be a "taxitank" in the combat camp.A new humvee with different armor, modular boxes for different missions and a hibrid engine our maybe hidrogen engine.The trucks like HEMMT with a hibrid engine.Keep the Blackhawks with some upgrades,new chinook with a "Skycrane" version for transport of heavy stuff, and keep the Uh-72.
In the case of AH-64 Apache news improvements to keep in service until a new more modern aircraft comes to service,using some tech from the Comanche program, and finally keep the Ah-6 little birds with some improvements.Replace the M4\M16 to scar or HK M416&M417, replace the ACU for Marpat.

[Hellfish]

creating a new light tank (some close to stingray)using some bradley and abrams parts to do it .

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M8-AGS

Uses parts from the Bradley with a Abrams fire control system and 120mm gun.

I'd love to see the M8, but with the Stryker MGS I doubt it'll ever get fielded, even if its a superior weapon.

The idea of going with an all CV90 force isn't a bad one at all - with the CV9035 as your IFV, CV90120 as your light tank, the AMOS varient, et al. Keep the M1s for the heavy units, though.

[Van Gogh]

I am going to revise a little of what I would do for the army in 2015.

First, I would cancel everything in the FCS except the new howitzer. The notion of a lighter vehicle with active defenses is just that, a notion. Although active defenses are a novel idea on paper, do they really work? Just remember that if it broadcast over the airwaves, it can be jammed. Same for the future force warrior program. Computers, and radios with the capability to transmit real time soldier posistions and intel again is a novel idea, but again, if it broadcasts over the airwaves, it can be tracked and jammed. Nothing like being a squad leader and being cut off from support as you are calling in CAS/Artillery. Compters, although becoming more reliable, do present a great threat, especiall if they would get attacked by viruses and jamming. And what about reliability? Nothing like having your battery conk out while online and doing something.......



I agree with this guy. Instead of spending more money on electronics, i think they need to have soldiers that are trained to rely on less gear. the radio is a very important tool though, and should stay.

[unpredictable]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M8-AGS

Uses parts from the Bradley with a Abrams fire control system and 120mm gun.

I'd love to see the M8, but with the Stryker MGS I doubt it'll ever get fielded, even if its a superior weapon.

Ahhhhhhhhhhh the M8!!yes it could be the light tank that i was talking.thanks for the tip.:)

[BloodyTalon]

I would infuse all of their skeletons with adamantium.
But then they could be pwned by a giant magnet.

[exarmyguard]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M8-AGS

Uses parts from the Bradley with a Abrams fire control system and 120mm gun.

I'd love to see the M8, but with the Stryker MGS I doubt it'll ever get fielded, even if its a superior weapon.

The idea of going with an all CV90 force isn't a bad one at all - with the CV9035 as your IFV, CV90120 as your light tank, the AMOS varient, et al. Keep the M1s for the heavy units, though.

The CV90 is a very good base for the development of a future force. It has already been trialed with large caliber guns and automatic mortars. Anything else a combat brigade wants can be bolted to it. The objective should be commonality and a small support trail. Rubber wheeled vehicles are a mistake when it comes to most tactical operations with enemy contact. I remember our M113's and how manuverable they were. They could turn inside of MOUT town's and climb obstacles with ease. I would hate to be down a street getting ambushed in a Stryker. How could you get out of the kill zone? Its easier with a track. Getting to the fight in heavy helo's a la Mi-26 is faster than driving there on vulnerable roads, where wheels operate faster.

If you want to see a more detailed account of outfitting the CV90 within the army, look at www.G2mil.com (http://www.G2mil.com). Specifically, scroll to the bottom, look for and click on"Past Editorials", look for and click on "Spring 2006".

Lots of interesting and thought provoking articles. The webpage is operated by an ex-marine officer.

[raider65]

The M8 AGS is being tested right now in Iraq. 4 prototypes were sent over about a year ago with the up armor packages. I have pictures but I don't know how to post them, being a retired Jarhead, I'm not that computer savvy but I'm learning but give me a rifle: The most deadly weapon... a Marine and his rifle. As for my other post, I was there also if I remember right I think a speculative article came out in Leatherneck magazine about it too but it didn't happen because the Marine Corps is not a service unto itself. It's acually a Department of the Navy. The Navy didn't let it happen. The Marines didn't want it to happen either as they wanted to keep they statis pro quo. So it didn't make it to more than speculative discussional material. Sorry to offend anybody and no offence to any Service or persons therein. They do great in the jobs that they do but if the truth hurts or egos get bruised, All I can say is sorry. Take two tylennol and go to sickbay in the morning.

[8thidpathfinderpower]

The M8 AGS is being tested right now in Iraq. 4 prototypes were sent over about a year ago with the up armor packages. I have pictures but I don't know how to post them, being a retired Jarhead, I'm not that computer savvy but I'm learning but give me a rifle: The most deadly weapon... a Marine and his rifle. As for my other post, I was there also if I remember right I think a speculative article came out in Leatherneck magazine about it too but it didn't happen because the Marine Corps is not a service unto itself. It's acually a Department of the Navy. The Navy didn't let it happen. The Marines didn't want it to happen either as they wanted to keep they statis pro quo. So it didn't make it to more than speculative discussional material. Sorry to offend anybody and no offence to any Service or persons therein. They do great in the jobs that they do but if the truth hurts or egos get bruised, All I can say is sorry. Take two tylennol and go to sickbay in the morning.


I have to prove you wrong....the deadliest weapon known to man is a 2d Lt with a map and a compass......I thought the M8 was canned because of some firecontrol issues....and armor issues

[raider65]

Do you mean for "friendly fire" or that they teach them their gods and get themselves killed. This is a joke for those that don't know. I read an acticle that during our stay in Bosnia that they had to bring in old tracked M113s because the Strikers were tearing up their tires and couldn't handle the rocky terrain. Yeah 4 M8s were made then parked. Then they were brought out and shipped over for more study. I will try and find the article I read. Also a vehicle was made to replace the Humvee after Samolia incident but it was turned down by the Pentagon. It had Lexon armor I think. I have this article on my pc. I will get you the net address.

[raider65]

Here is the Humvee armor article. http://www.rense.com/general66/pssyh.htm I'm still looking for other on M8.

[raider65]

Here is a site on M8 http://www.combatreform.com/lighttanks.htm But not the one I was looking for.

[Hellfish]

The M8 AGS is being tested right now in Iraq. 4 prototypes were sent over about a year ago with the up armor packages. I have pictures but I don't know how to post them, being a retired Jarhead, I'm not that computer savvy but I'm learning but give me a rifle: The most deadly weapon... a Marine and his rifle. As for my other post, I was there also if I remember right I think a speculative article came out in Leatherneck magazine about it too but it didn't happen because the Marine Corps is not a service unto itself. It's acually a Department of the Navy. The Navy didn't let it happen. The Marines didn't want it to happen either as they wanted to keep they statis pro quo. So it didn't make it to more than speculative discussional material. Sorry to offend anybody and no offence to any Service or persons therein. They do great in the jobs that they do but if the truth hurts or egos get bruised, All I can say is sorry. Take two tylennol and go to sickbay in the morning.

I checked about six months ago and never heard anything about the M8 over in Iraq. I know the 82nd wanted to take them with, but as far as anyone knows, the Army never authorized the funds to pull 'em out of storage and send them.

If you have pics of them over there, they'd be very interesting to see.

Also, don't knock the Stryker. It does an excellent job at what it was supposed to do. It gives some armored transport to a light infantry brigade. Thats all its supposed to do, but it does it very, very well.

[raider65]

Link to Crye Precision Body Armor. http://www.militarymorons.com/gear/crye3.html

[raider65]

Don't have any first hand knowledge of Striker as when I was in we still used M113 APCs. I guess it'd be ok in urban where there's roads. I know the Canadians field them as cougars? and grizzlies? or something. http://www.combatreform.com/aesindex.htm i'll post pics of M8 if someone will tell me how.

[Hellfish]

www.combatreform.com is one of the dumbest sites on the internet. The guy that runs it is damn near psychotic.

To post pics on the net, upload them from your hard drive to a website like www.imageshack.us or www.photobucket.com for free. When the pics are uploaded, just copy and paste the URL to the pic they give you (it will look something like [ img]http://imageshack.us/737/filename.jpg[/img] onto the forum here.

[raider65]

Sorry Guys & Gals, An "expert" told me my pics of M8 were from 1996-1998 and were stock ones. If only I still worked S2 but then I wouldn't be able to post anything for 12 years or I'd get put in Levenworth. Also it went to the Army and not the Corps so I might only have been able to get stock photos anyways. The Army always gets the new toys. But that can be good as all the bugs have been fixed and shortcoming are known and have work arounds. But what I do remember from the article was that they redesignated the M8 to be the M43 when they were going to send it so that might help (and who knows they could have been used in some kind of black op and then sent back stateside or it might never have went over or this could be disinformation, unwittingly on my part of course).

[raider65]

Oh, I see I left something out for ArmyJonHall, The Army has mostly land vehicles tanks, APCs and what not. They have infantry and several types of SF. They do have helos but no fixed wing craft or not very many (I don't know if the Airborne ride in their own planes or hitch aride with the Air Dales?). And they don't have ships but I do think they have a brown water navy but those are boats. Now the Air Force has planes galore (being that they were once the Army Air Corp until the 40's (I think late 40's) when renamed and made a service unto itself. They have SF in their Blue Berets and PJ's. But they have no tanks, ships or helos except maybe for rescue or medivac. The Navy has ships and subs and planes and helos and the SEALS and SeaBees. But no real infantry and no tanks and the SEALs are not infantry but Special Forces. The SeeBees are not infantry but Combat Engineers. But the Marine Corps has it all. We have infantry called Grunts. We have tanks and armored cars and whatnot (mostly stuff the Army didn't want case in point the Ontos of Vietnam era, The Army designed it then didn't like it so they gave it to the Corps, ugly tank like vehicle with six 105mm cannons although now the Corps has been standardized with the Army to cut costs on designing and manufacturing new weapon systems). We have planes and helos. We have ships through our being affilated with the Navy. We have Special Forces with Recon and MarDet1 Raiders and you might count the FAST Co's (at one time all Marines were considered Special Forces Ready). So there you have it, a projection of force in all deminsions. The only American Military arm to have it all.

[el borracho]

So that makes the Marines better? The Corps was designed like that for a reason.

[raider65]

No, not better, just different. But it is the only American Armed Force with all elements. And that's the fact, Jack. That's all I'm saying. And they are the first to fight. At the President's order, they have 24 hrs to be onsite, in 48 hours they have to be ready to project force against the enemy. And to Chops: Why'd you think I was smokin something instead of just being a retard (saids as he loads his .500 S&W magnum to go a prowlin'.) :)

[raider65]

Correction: M8 pictures from 1994-1996. Marines own up to their mistakes and try to correct them, as a point of honor. And my expert was Hellfish6. Thanks for your sharp eyes.

[James]

Don't have any first hand knowledge of Striker as when I was in we still used M113 APCs. I guess it'd be ok in urban where there's roads. I know the Canadians field them as cougars? and grizzlies? or something. http://www.combatreform.com/aesindex.htm i'll post pics of M8 if someone will tell me how.

USMC never used the M113. We used (in my day) LVTP-7, later AAV-7.

I hope you aren't telling lies.

[raider65]

Sorry man But we had M113s. I don't need to lie either. And if you ever read "93 confirmed kills" you'd know Carl Hathecock, a Marine Sniper was blown up and burned riding on top of one. A man I met while I was in the Corps. Maybe they were Army cast offs. All I know is we had them. Also my Uncle a Marine radioman from Vietnam Era tells stories of riding in them.

[raider65]

Oh Yeah in boot We practiced getting out of them and fanning out in a base of fire. Also we then went along b*tch ridge and up and over Mtn FotherMucker and did a night time firing session and one of the vehicles we got to shoot holes in was a M113 along with a couple of other vehicle husks. It looks pretty with a whole line of Marines firing traces at night (M60s, M249's and M16's) rounds bouncing up and tumbling Looks so cool!

[Ngati Tumatauenga]

Carl Hathecock, a Marine Sniper was blown up and burned riding on top of one.

No, Carlos Hathcock was riding an LVTP-5. Completely different vehicle.


A man I met while I was in the Corps.

Yeah? Why can't you spell his name properly then?

[raider65]

Sorry, went to bad schools and only had 3 years of spelling. I suck at spelling so sue me. I met him at Camp Johnson in North Carolina in late 80's and I wasn't looking at a book with his name on it, I just winged it. And I'm pretty sure it was an M113 but I'm reaching back in memory so you might be right, not sure as I don't have that book. But I do remember looking at his rifle which he brought with him as a piece of history.

[AussieJohnDoe]

..................

[raider65]

Didn't say he was still in. He came a calling and for morale boost. Just checking on his fav service and to give pointers. Mr. Whitefeather, we miss you.

[raider65]

I'd leave it pretty much the same as now force wise. Our vehicles are equal to or better than our enemies right now. With better training than most of our enemies. I would persue interlinking comm. Upgrade M16 to 6.5mm. Maybe split some forces for specialized training in Mtn, jungle, desert, cold weather and urban environments. I think urban is the hardest. Also deploy way more snipers like 1 for every 5 men. Make a few more modern nukes for deterrent.

[Mastermind]

I just checked my book on Hathcock and it says he was riding on an M-113. I dunno...what's the diff?

Okay...Here's my vision of the future US Army. This is based on my present concern about the libs taking over the gvt...which I strongly predict will happen in total capacity in ten years.

First, there will be no more rank...we wouldn't want to make the persons of less rank feel insecure or less of a person than say a General or a Sergeant.

There will be no more lethal fire arms. If we have lethality, it will only make persons who may oppose us strive for more lethality. We are all persons of the world and thus brothers, regardless of our political persusaion or religious beliefs...and the non-lethal weapons will be much safer.

We will do away with camoflage uniforms. They present an image that is not trustworthy. they make us look as if we have something to hide. So, all unifroms will be cheerful pastels...of course in colors chosen not to offend any persons of any different ****** persuastions.

All non-lethal projectiles will be propelled by compounds that are environmentally friendly, such as compressed nitrogen gas or just air pressure or mag-rail.

All military vehicles will be hydrogen fueld or natural gas. Remember, the Earth is not our enemy.

All battlefields will be chosen with prime concern for any indigenous animals. Before any attack can take place, an endangered species survey must be completed. All soldiers will be trained in recognizing endangered species. Should any endangered animal (except of the human species)inadvertently appear on an active battlefield, all hostilities must immediately cease.

The Army of the future will completely match the population in race, ***, ****** orientation, political affiliation and ethno-economic status. Once the percentage of soldiers of any classification has been judged to be in parody, no more soldiers of that classification can be enlisted until that classification falls below parody. If any classification falls short of meeting the enlistment goals, it may be filled with any classification that is considered a minority class.

Since all wars are considered inhumane, the US Army will be primarily trained in the social sciences and humanitarian arts. Before any operations can take place on foreign soil, soldiers will be properly indoctrinated in the social customs of the indigenous people, and proper etiquette. Soldiers will be encouraged to modify their personal habits and behavior to match those of the area in question so as to minimize any unintended offensive behavior. Soldiers will be encouraged to adopt foreign dress and behave as foreigners as much as possible. The display of the American flag on any foreign soil will be disallowed, since it is well known how offensive this flag is to most people of the world.

All persons take as prisoners will be kindly treated. They must not lose any of their human dignity. Their relgious rights and customes will be properly protected and supported, even if those customs include sacrficing American children to their God. No American soldier is allowed to interrogate any opposing soldier. Such interrogation may make him or her feel insecure or threatened. All persons attacking Americans are entiled to justice and every right guaranteed to any American Citizen...the Constitution does not stop just becasue someone wants to destroy it. Any opposition persons who are not wearing uniforms or are not members of an official military, but who are killing or slaughtering American forces, are to be considered "protected opposing persons" and must be treated accordingly.

If any "enemy" forces are killed or injured during the conflict, there will be immediate investigations and any soldiers responsible shall be put on public trial. Any enemy forces that may be embarrassed or humiliated by placing panties on their heads or who even feel inclined to submit to any American aggressions shall be immediately compensated monetarily and duly apologized to. American commanders will make these apologies in person, in public and before world press persons so the apology can be transmitted world wide. The apologies must be heartfelt and convincing.

There will be no engaements wothout proper leagal departmemnt approvals beforehand. Requests to engage potentially aggressive opposing forces will be handled through the proper channels. Only the State Department lawyers will be allowed to determine if an engagment meets the letter of international law and the laws of the opposing nation. Soldiers who engage without proper authorization will be put on trial and publically humiliated.

In the unlikely event there is a victory (or more appriately) a declaration of success on the part of the American forces, there will be no displays of joy or victory celebrations. The losers of the conflict will be feeling bad enough without Americans rubbing it in. However, should the American forces lose the conflict, they will immediately apologize and promise unending foreign aid to attone for their trangressions. Every effort will be made to aid and comfort the enemy.

Only in these ways will the American military help restore purety and harmony throughout the world.

I could go on all night...but these are just a few of the ways I see the American military making changes for the future. MM

[8thidpathfinderpower]

I hope the US Army does not get dumb abd decide to make that stryker mobile gun system the next tank. There was talk of that when the vehicle was introduced to the army for evaluation.

The army of 2015 would not be too much different from todays army.

The thing that kind of worries me, is the reliance in computers and technology to make up for manning shortfalls. We have already made a big mistake not planning for todays wars. See, in the electro-magnetic spectrum, if it transmits, it can be jammed. And, really that is not the only threat. There is the threat from the sun(ever wondered why you cannot transmit very far when there is a massive solar storm? Or, ever wondered why you can talk all over the world before a hurricane?)

We do place too much reliance on this "blue force tracking" and we forget that it canned be jammed, or worse monitored and plans being blown.

As for the FCS...I think that the army would be better off letting the program go. Its nice that they can have a common chassis, but that is all just a dream. The threats of today and tomarrow still involve main battle tanks. And, if we do not do something within the next decade like devoloping the next generation MBT, then we will be about like after the VIetnam war...illprepared.

The United States has a history of boom and bust phases for its military. And these boom and bust phases are what hampers us fighting todays wars.

[Van Gogh]

id rethink the counterinsurgency strategy considering using green beret surveillance teams and ranger assault squads at night. covert warfare, special operations. yet some might say thats why we failed in somalia. but id take a second look. patriotic people against a foreign army just seems like a no win situation. i mean vice versa, but with the proper strategy anything is possible.

[Van Gogh]

I hope the US Army does not get dumb abd decide to make that stryker mobile gun system the next tank. There was talk of that when the vehicle was introduced to the army for evaluation.

The army of 2015 would not be too much different from todays army.

The thing that kind of worries me, is the reliance in computers and technology to make up for manning shortfalls. We have already made a big mistake not planning for todays wars. See, in the electro-magnetic spectrum, if it transmits, it can be jammed. And, really that is not the only threat. There is the threat from the sun(ever wondered why you cannot transmit very far when there is a massive solar storm? Or, ever wondered why you can talk all over the world before a hurricane?)

We do place too much reliance on this "blue force tracking" and we forget that it canned be jammed, or worse monitored and plans being blown.

As for the FCS...I think that the army would be better off letting the program go. Its nice that they can have a common chassis, but that is all just a dream. The threats of today and tomarrow still involve main battle tanks. And, if we do not do something within the next decade like devoloping the next generation MBT, then we will be about like after the VIetnam war...illprepared.

The United States has a history of boom and bust phases for its military. And these boom and bust phases are what hampers us fighting todays wars.

special operations forces are able to plan their own missions. thats one way around network communications. with the proper training, all units could be self reliant. simply give them an objective and say when you're done come back together. Or, leave it solely in the hands of special operations, and just increase their numbers. Thats one of their specialties is being able to work without radio communication.

[Van Gogh]

sorry for the triple post but heres how you do it. im a military strategist so i think this will work. have a ranger team move within hearing distance of a green beret surveillance team, to be in position by a certain time. the green berets catch the target they begin firing, once the rangers hear the action, they move in, then everyone moves out together. its simple, and requires no radio communication. its just that everyone has to be in position , at the exact time of attack, or the plan will fail. i would have deleted my old posts if i knew how. :roll:

[Hellfish]

sorry for the triple post but heres how you do it. im a military strategist so i think this will work. have a ranger team move within hearing distance of a green beret surveillance team, to be in position by a certain time. the green berets catch the target they begin firing, once the rangers hear the action, they move in, then everyone moves out together. its simple, and requires no radio communication. its just that everyone has to be in position , at the exact time of attack, or the plan will fail. i would have deleted my old posts if i knew how. :roll:

You're a military strategist? roflrofl

[Van Gogh]

yes. DON'T LAUGH. i know im not the best, but im a military strategist.

[ed316]

You're a military strategist? roflrofl

Only on BF2 and GRAW

[bluffcove]

Good to see the concentration on Urban warfare and counter insurgency going on here.

hindsight is a wonderful thing and preparing to fight the last war is invariably what looses you the next.

[the_recruit]

Id cut the Army's funding in half so they stop experimenting with crap we dont need like a new humvee, the dread gun, and strapping a Dell computer to every soldier on foot. Myabe they'll emphasize thier money into trianing and become a more effective fighting fore. (not that they arent, but there is always room for improvment)

Marines have been working with the least funding and the oldest equipments and have been getting the job done just as good.

with the other chunk of pay that the Army doesnt get, Use it to try and get the economy back up on its feet.

Iran and Korea? continue peace talks. We cant afford a war after Iraq and Afghanistan. Give it some time, they'll get theirs eventually.

[ed316]

Id cut the Army's funding in half so they stop experimenting with crap we dont need like a new humvee, the dread gun, and strapping a Dell computer to every soldier on foot. Myabe they'll emphasize thier money into trianing and become a more effective fighting fore. (not that they arent, but there is always room for improvment)

Marines have been working with the least funding and the oldest equipments and have been getting the job done just as good.

with the other chunk of pay that the Army doesnt get, Use it to try and get the economy back up on its feet.

Iran and Korea? continue peace talks. We cant afford a war after Iraq and Afghanistan. Give it some time, they'll get theirs eventually.

Stop experimenting? Be happy of what you got and don't stay ahead of the curve? No instant comm? Go back to using prc 77s?

[BrianT]

Id cut the Army's funding in half so they stop experimenting with crap we dont need like a new humvee, the dread gun, and strapping a Dell computer to every soldier on foot. Myabe they'll emphasize thier money into trianing and become a more effective fighting fore. (not that they arent, but there is always room for improvment)

Marines have been working with the least funding and the oldest equipments and have been getting the job done just as good.

with the other chunk of pay that the Army doesnt get, Use it to try and get the economy back up on its feet.

Iran and Korea? continue peace talks. We cant afford a war after Iraq and Afghanistan. Give it some time, they'll get theirs eventually.
The Army can afford to train soldiers just as well as Marines and give them cool toys. I doubt you'll find Marines get anymore range time or schooling than the average Army soldier.

[Hellfish]

yes. DON'T LAUGH. i know im not the best, but im a military strategist.

Right, right. What are your credentials? Got a list of publications I can look up?

[the_recruit]

Im not saying Marines get more anything. I just find it amazing how they both work extremely well with a gap in the type of technology available to them.

If more time gets put into training, the results will be better. Theres always room for improvment. Theres things we really dont have to spend time and money on, and the money can be better spent with things such as armor plating for humvees? More supplies for the soldiers? More Nomex flight suits with Camoflage patterns so they can be worn in jungle enviorments. They protect from flash-burn very nicley, and from what Ive heard, they are very comfortable.

The simple things will go a long way.

[BrianT]

If more time gets put into training, the results will be better. Theres always room for improvment. Theres things we really dont have to spend time and money on, and the money can be better spent with things such as armor plating for humvees? More supplies for the soldiers? More Nomex flight suits with Camoflage patterns so they can be worn in jungle enviorments. They protect from flash-burn very nicley, and from what Ive heard, they are very comfortable.

The simple things will go a long way.
Oh I won't disagree with that. But personally I would redirect some of the budgets of the Navy and the Air Force. Do we really need the F-35? On the other hand some of those high tech toys like UAVs that the Army is deploying could be really beneficial. Can you imagine having intel streamed to you instantly on enemy positions and stuff? It'd be a huge edge and IMO money well spent. Sure if its not broken, don't fix it, but there's nothing wrong with improving it.

[Hellfish]

I think the F-35 is a better investment than the F-22.

[the_recruit]

Yeah, I seen the UAVs and things like dragon eye, but what happens when someone plugs an ak-round inot it?

[Hellfish]

Yeah, I seen the UAVs and things like dragon eye, but what happens when someone plugs an ak-round inot it?

It gets shot down. Simple as that.

[AK74]

better cammies? ACU is crap.

Better weapons? Hk416 uppers?

better Armor? Dragonskin?

Better management? Less private enterprises running the show?

Better project management? less "axing" and more usable project stuff?

[Van Gogh]

instead of sending in tanks, id send in a ranger foot patrol that passes out flyers, in the iraqi language, that talks about what happened, why it was wrong, and who we're looking for. they are to act very friendly and talk to people and stuff like that. the attack as it was, was too large scale, and sent the wrong message.

[Van Gogh]

i mean, this would be for the anti terror strategy. but seriously, they're over there fighting people in civillian clothing with tanks on the street, it looks like we came to take over, just like the taliban rhetoric. no wonder their forces are increasing in number. my strategy doesn't sound all that dumb.

[the_recruit]

instead of sending in tanks, id send in a ranger foot patrol that passes out flyers, in the iraqi language, that talks about what happened, why it was wrong, and who we're looking for. they are to act very friendly and talk to people and stuff like that. the attack as it was, was too large scale, and sent the wrong message.


And this will help? Half these people dont want us there anymore, and couldnt care less about what we have to say.

I dont want to seem like an asshole, but I dont see how this would work.


and why Rangers?

[Hydro]

Is Van Gogh for real? He's as much a strategist as I am Bob Hope.

[the_recruit]

he makes me laugh.

[Pook2]

The future success of any military lies in solving logistical problems, not always tactical problems. Good day gentlemen.

[Van Gogh]

.........it....seemed like a good idea at the time.....:oops:

[Hellfish]

So are you gonna tell us your credentials as a military analyst or not?

[Mastermind]

1) The advent of special expanded sensory, protection and communications equipment to the frame of the Infantry soldier is beginning to appear absurd. The soldier has to be able to move....by the time you add up all the gear the modern soldier needs, you have a 460 lb package on a musculoskeletal frame designed for 180 lbs. Just as the hummers are breaking down and slowing down under the extra loads of armor and firepower, so too, the soldier of the future will be so immobilized by this equipment, he will be very vulnerable...ergo, I forsee the develoment of exo skeleton semi robotic equipment that will greatly enhance the soldier of the future in strength and stamina and killing power.

2) Wars of the future are not likely to be the all encompassing mass warfare of the past century. We probalby have seen the last or nearly the last of the really great battles...wars will be decided by battles that in days gone by would hardly be called "skirmishes". Therefore, I forsee much smaller but much more deadly combat units. Jobs that at one time had to be handled by armies will be handled by divisions and what had been jobs for entire divisions will be handled by brigades or even company sized units.

3) The ever expanding role of support services will continue to be automated. Fire support may be handled entirely by remote control from very long distances. Already we see battle field commanders in Maimi calling the shots for men engaged in deadly battle in Iraq. Instant downloading of overview battlefield intelligense, allowing commanders to often see in much greater detail even than the troopers in their firing postions, will make maximum use of minimum forces. Truly pinpoint accuracy of fire support weapons will be surpassed by not just smarter weapons, but by genius weapons. Long range weapons will be able to loiter over the battlefield incessantly watching for the slightest enemy movement and then will strike with such accuracy you could say each enemy combatant could actually have a round with his "name engraved" on it. The weapons of the future will make the battlefield environment so deadly as to make any movement an act of suicide. Without movement, there can be no hostile action.

4) The modern military commanders will continue to insist on "safety" for their human soldiers to such a degree, safety may come to actually superimpose itself on planning and tactics as to override "victory" maneuver. Thus, I forsee an ever expanding role for robotics. Clever and even autonomous robotics may be developed to greatly replace the fragile human soldiers in highly dangerous assault maneuvers. Where a battlefield tactic calls for rapid envelopmemnt of fortifed and dug in enemy forces, it will most likely fall to these robotic devices to move forward and engage the enemy first. These robotic soldiers would not necessarily have to be humanoid in shape or function. They could be devised as small as ants or as large as behemoth bulldozer shaped vehicles...all programmed with the single minded goal of immobilization of their human foes. This would not necessarily mean "killing" them....but it may mean demoralizing them electronically or even infecting them with debilitating but non-deadly biological agents...such as agents that attack the nervous system for days or weeks at a time or agents that attack only the optic nerve, rendering the enemy soldiers blind for a few days or weeks. The human soldiers would be more like a large medical corps, moving onto the battlefield and gently guiding the "enemy" soldiers toward aid stations, giving them antidotal agents as they move into prison camps.

5) In the event the army of the future is met with equal technology, there will be a war of the scientists and weapons developers. The war of the future would then become massively deadly with use of weapons of such strength as to quickly render entire nations back to the stone age. The "globalization" of the world economy would make such a war so devastating as to kill a large portion of the entire world human and animal and even vegetable population. Currently, the nations and people of the Earth are almost wholly dependant on artifical means to support their food supply and distribution. Any massive global conflict would ruin the delicate and intricate economy these food systems require. Almost certainly, most people, regardless of their nation or location would starve to death in a few seasons if any massive conflict were to break out. In which case, the weapon of the post conflict future with the most advanced design may be a 2x4 with a few nails in the end wielded by a man with a hungry family to support.
MM (Okay...I'll gently put the crystal ball back in the box, now)

[amazing kg3]

you suggested what is likely to come in the next 20 years, you plan to come up with the research, contruction, and distrubution, let alone the budget for this in 8 years?

[Mastermind]

These things are already on the drawing board or are in R&D right now. Only three months ago, the exo-suit problem were resolved with tiny rapid response inertia sensors...that thing that makes the Segway work. Advances in micro engineering have alrady made micro sized robots in the lab...these things can be mfgd at an amazing rate..they are actually built by other computers...and they are more "grown" than assembled. I did some research on how such devices wourl operate....be programmed. I was stunned to find out that in computer simulations, an attack swarm can be programmed in only a few lines of code....look up "FLOYS" and you can program your very own attack swarm...it's almost spooky to watch.

AS for the remote command and control, already done...most of us are well aware of the command structure in Florida operating over battle field in iraq and how babble commanders are having to gain permission for ceartin maneuvers and targets in real time from people thousands of miles from the actucal shooting.

The annual robotic autonomous vehicle competition, sponsored by the US Army, is now involved with major corporation like Rand and MS, developing autonomous battle field robots that can navigate with no human control....and some of these things have already been weaponized as tank killers...they can (if deployed) swarm a battlefield and hide, waiting for enemy vehicles and troops..they have a guaranteed kill capability against any armor in the world. They are actual "genius mines"...and they have been tested and proven for years now.

What about the widely deployed active defense systems for armor? We all know about these....They are fully autonomous robotic weapons sytems, designed to rapidly knock down ATGM's IN FLIGHT and can handle multiple threats at once!

What about the announcement last week of the AC-130 airborn laser? This thing is being flown and is already proven...it is going through operational testing phase now....it fires a ten centimeter chemical laser and is effective against hard target at range of fifteen miles! How long before such devices are compact enough for deployment in land and airborne systems that operate completely autonomously...programmed to isolate and immobilize any targeted enemy forces in entire regions of a battlefield.

These things are real now...and if needed, they can be very quickly expanded for any role and deployed.

MM

[cinoeye]

Wow, great thread.
You guys are realy good informed!

[Mastermind]

Here is the page for "FLOYS" http://www.aridolan.com/ofiles/iFloys.html

Go play with them...I find them absolutely fascinating....and there is no limit to how many ways you can program them. I like their absolute aggression...they find an enemy, they do not stop..and the little enemy floy seems to know...it's his ass...he runs like crazy after the floys get him.

When working with tiny robots, even on the scale of a flea, programming takes on an entirely different flavor.

Imagine a micro-bot programmed to do just five things. 1) seek light for recharge when power is low 2) move only at night unless seeking recharge 3) seek thermal sources that register between 97 and 101 deg F. 4) when internal temp is at ideal (code 3) and ammonia is detected, release 3% of cargo. 5) After cargo release, goto 1 repeat.

Now think if the flea sized bots are released in the billions over an enemy territory and their cargo pack is loaded with genetically engineered viral infested skin bacterial spores. They find a human, deposit their load...practically undetected, and move on to another human. The virus could work very much like a shiegella or scrapies or shingles or casue a debilitating disease like Encephalitis lethargica (sleeping sickness), or even Mononucleosis...there are no real cures...for some of these already, and imagine a weaponized version....can you imagine being a commander in charge of an army of men so debilitated they can hardly walk to the latrine? They are not dead, but hardly able to soldier in combat. Of course, your own men are immunized against the engineered diseases and also the micro-bots are triggered by an tiny on board RFID (specially tuned antenna) that renders them immobilized when they get within a 6 ft radius of a lapel worn transponder which all of your troops wear.

As I said before, the technology for these weapons is already developed and tested...it is merely a matter of deciding to deploy them.MM