Question regarding accuracy of M-14/21...

[isthvan]

Hi

I'm currently having discussion on other forum about use of sniper rifles in LE environment. Now like always discussion came to the point where we are comparing semi autos to bolt action rifles.

My point is that bolt action rifles are more accurate (at least from my limited experience shooting Croatian EMM-992 rifle and Remington 700 Police vs. Yu M-76 and scoped G-3) and that in LE environment accuracy of rifle is more important then rate of fire.

Now other user claims that he has contacted couple of Army sniper team platoon leaders - one in Iraq, the other in Afghanistan - from another forum he is in. Their unified response: Both teams are using the M-21 as their primary. Both teams have returned their bolt actions to inventory, as they are getting better accuracy from the M-21.

Since I didn't have opportunity to shoot any of M-14 derivate and since I was under impressions that M-21 is DMR and not sniper rifle I would like your opinion about accuracy of M-21 compared to LE/military issue sniper rifles(preferably from someone that used both)...

Best regards
Isthvan

[ABNINF]

Alot of this boils down to simple preferrence. Bolt actions are inheirently more accurate due to less moving parts. Semi's offer a higher rate of fire and faster followup shots. That having been said, military sniping and LE sniping are totally different worlds. They probably chose the M21's for the faster handling, quicker reloads, and more magazine capacity.

[isthvan]

Alot of this boils down to simple preferrence. Bolt actions are inheirently more accurate due to less moving parts. Semi's offer a higher rate of fire and faster followup shots. That having been said, military sniping and LE sniping are totally different worlds. They probably chose the M21's for the faster handling, quicker reloads, and more magazine capacity.

that was my impression but he is claiming that they are getting better accuracy from the M-21...

My point was that LE bolt actions have higher level of accuracy(less then 1 MOA whit some claiming low as 0.3 MOA) and that higher one shoot/one kill probability of bolt actions is more important for LE rifle then faster handling and higher rate of fire... Now Im really interested since I was under impression that most of semi autos cant provide that level of accuracy...

[maw]

1 moa semi's are plenty accurate for le work. particularily when one considers the average distance is less than what? >200 yards? le snipers talk a lot about a cold bore zero but they rarely have to deal with it because of the ranges at which they operate.

however, the problem with semi's is that the first round is going to be a zinger. a military or target shooter can deal with this but a le "sniper" doesn't have that option.

so. imho semi's are unsuitable for le snipers.

[maw]

Now Im really interested since I was under impression that most of semi autos cant provide that level of accuracy...

that behemoth from h&k: the psg1 is supposed to be a factory guaranteed 0.5 moa. i've fired thousands of rounds through a slightly tweaked mk11 mod0 and gotten 300 yards groups down to just over an inch (0.3 moa -/+). however, these groups do not include the first round flyer.

regarding bolt guns, there are several bolt guns that can do better than .5 moa. a gap rock will give you 0.5" at 300 yards (approx. 0.153 moa?). that new-ish german bullpup is supposed to be a .25 moa gun.

[California Joe]

that was my impression but he is claiming that they are getting better accuracy from the M-21...

My point was that LE bolt actions have higher level of accuracy(less then 1 MOA whit some claiming low as 0.3 MOA) and that higher one shoot/one kill probability of bolt actions is more important for LE rifle then faster handling and higher rate of fire... Now Im really interested since I was under impression that most of semi autos cant provide that level of accuracy...

Bolt actions are more accurate period. They may get more kills with a semi auto and they may be having great results with a semi auto at the range they are shooting. Depending on the caliber, the semi autos will kill a man at nearly 1000 yards, but there is a reason that all target rifles and long range sniper rifles are bolt guns. OK?

[SMGLee]

Hi

Now other user claims that he has contacted couple of Army sniper team platoon leaders - one in Iraq, the other in Afghanistan - from another forum he is in. Their unified response: Both teams are using the M-21 as their primary. Both teams have returned their bolt actions to inventory, as they are getting better accuracy from the M-21.


M14 is being field as supplemental system to the primary sniper rifle, the M24. As far as accuracy is concern, military is not as concern with pin point accuracy at 700m as with the LE dept are foucsed on MOA shot at 75 yrds. Military sniper rifle are more likel;y to engage a long distance shot, buit they are not seeking a shot through the brian stem like the LE snipers. I know a lot of M24 system are paired with M21/M14EBR in the field. the crazy horse M14s are getting dirty and fast kills on multiple targets especially after the initial shot from the M24 system... the fleeding target ten to get picked off fast with a semi auto system.

this is why the military is looking to replace the M24 with the latest M110 SASS. KAC won the contract to provide the military with the next generation semiautomatic sniper system.

military tend to like the semi auto due to the current situation in field, but LE has a whole lot different requirement. their targets are usually a lone gun man, which a bolt action, ultra accurate rifle are the norm. most of the sniper shot in LE avg. no more then 75yds.

It is not how accurate the rifel is, it is really the man ebhind the system. the shooter has to be able to put that shot where he want it every TIME.

and yes...Bolt action are generally more accurate then Semi since there is less moving parts, but the latest round of report are showing the new KAC SASS are posting 1/2MOA with ease.

[HoboWithAK]

Alot of this boils down to simple preferrence. Bolt actions are inheirently more accurate due to less moving parts. Semi's offer a higher rate of fire and faster followup shots. That having been said, military sniping and LE sniping are totally different worlds. They probably chose the M21's for the faster handling, quicker reloads, and more magazine capacity.

They should have M110s for this by now. I know the few guys I know who are deployed to Iraq right now do. They went with M14s in their previous go-around.

[mohica]

I do not think any semi rifle will ever totally replace the bolt action for pure sniper work. The KAC rifle that "won" the competiton is valid for a couple of reasons in current conflict. Probably one of the most important is the profile of the rifle is the same as the M16 and at range is difficult for the enemy to distinguish from the M16. I think this is paramount for the users. Where this rifle is going to see much use is in the urban environment where quick follow-up shots are required.

There is some debate whether Reed's rifle was actually the best of the two finalists and even some of the other submittals that were withdrawn from the competition and felt it was a no win and "rigged". Rumor has had it for some time that he has the "contacts" with some of the powers that be and gets the contracts. Has for years.

I don't think his rifle/system is worth 15K per unit. I have always thought his stuff was overpriced. I believe the Remgington/DPMS entry for much less money and that ArmaLite entry (withdrawn) for much less money could do the same job. I agree with the post above about the SEI Crazy Horse rifles. They could do the same job under worse conditions for 1/3 the price of the KAC unit.

It will be interesting to see what the future holds for the M110 SASS, it's durability, and longevity.

[ABNINF]

They should have M110s for this by now. I know the few guys I know who are deployed to Iraq right now do. They went with M14s in their previous go-around.

They very well may, I don't doubt it. I know our replacements in A-Stan had 21's. My whole point was that it was probably a personal preference to pick the 21's over the 24's. In an urban <500m shots, where rapid follow-up is needed, it's more practical. At those same distances MOA change isn't really a factor. I like the M14/21's and really don't think there's much out there that's better, just equal. I think one of the reasons that the Army went with the M110 is for familiarization. If I was a sniper downrange, I'd prefer to carry a M24 with a M4/ACOG for back-up. As I said, personal preference

[Straker]

Didn't the latest survey put American LE sniper shots at an average distance of something like 61 yards IIRC?

On the original point, bolt action rifles are for the most part inherantly more accurate than semi automatic actions. Is what the guy saying true, possibly in that particular case. However, ask for his source, it sounds more than a little dodgie does it not?

[8thidpathfinderpower]

I have read some of the posts here, and I will say this much...although I have to agree that bolt action rifles are inherintly more accurate, that old war horse M14 seems to be just about as good of a job as the M24, and any other system used in combat. I bet the police department that chose the M21 chose it because it is a battle proven weapon, is highly accurate, and a whole lot cheaper than current rifles on the market.

[maw]

there's match accuracy and practical accuracy. the difference between the sass's >.5 moa and the m40's .4 moa is academic. the sass weighs less too.

the m14/m21 is just not feasible as a sniper rifle. dmr rifle yes, sniper rifle no because it is an even higher maintenance item then the sr-25. the bedding in particular has to be redone every x (i believe it was a thousand rounds) number of rounds if you want to maintain consistent sub-moa accuracy. in all the 600 yard camp perry type competion classes the sr-25/dpms/ar-10 rifles are cleaning up. no one wants to put up with the high level of maintenance that the m14 requires. as a battle rifle it's solid and just plain runs, more so then the sr-25/dpms/ar-10 rifles. however, as a precision instrument it requires constant tlc, considerably more so then the sr-25/dpms/ar-10 rifles.

yeah, kac guns are waaay overpriced. especially when you consider that kac don't even make their own barrels. and imho the barrel is the single largest contributor to a rifles' accuracy. kac machine some trick parts and then grab a bunch of top shelf components from other vendors and put it all together as a solution. i had no idea that the sass nsn package in that slick hardigg case was $15,000! what a joke.

regarding longevity, the fm says not to exceed a ridiculously low daily round count like twenty per day or something. things inside the upper reciever start to go loose real fast if you shoot a lot.

[SMGLee]

yeah, kac guns are waaay overpriced. especially when you consider that kac don't even make their own barrels. and imho the barrel is the single largest contributor to a rifles' accuracy. kac machine some trick parts and then grab a bunch of top shelf components from other vendors and put it all together as a solution. i had no idea that the sass nsn package in that slick hardigg case was $15,000! what a joke.

KAC guns are expensive and somewhat over priced, but KAC did a lot development prior to putting the guns together. It came from a basic MK11 design that evolve into the SASS. The only thing KAC doesn't make is the barrel on the SASS and the Leupold scope. Of course a lot of support gear are sourced from oput side vender.

the things is everyone sourced parts from off the shelf. It was aCOTS gun, but not everyone's gun had the accuracy nor the reliability. We can debate how Knights has the inside track and all, but in the end, the KAC M110 came out on top and this is what our war fighter will be using in the future.

As far as the M21 in the hands of the LE, I can't recall a dept I visited that used a M21 or M14 as their primary precision rifle.

[mohica]

there's match accuracy and practical accuracy. the difference between the sass's >.5 moa and the m40's .4 moa is academic. the sass weighs less too.

If in fact that >.5 moa is correct for the SASS which I believe it may have on the first shot with subsequent shots being somethihg more, it still costs 4 times as much as an M40.


the m14/m21 is just not feasible as a sniper rifle. dmr rifle yes, sniper rifle no because it is an even higher maintenance item then the sr-25. the bedding in particular has to be redone every x (i believe it was a thousand rounds) number of rounds if you want to maintain consistent sub-moa accuracy. in all the 600 yard camp perry type competion classes the sr-25/dpms/ar-10 rifles are cleaning up. no one wants to put up with the high level of maintenance that the m14 requires. as a battle rifle it's solid and just plain runs, more so then the sr-25/dpms/ar-10 rifles. however, as a precision instrument it requires constant tlc, considerably more so then the sr-25/dpms/ar-10 rifles.

You need to read up on the SEI Crazy Horse rifles. No bedding. These rifles run and are battlefield accurate.


yeah, kac guns are waaay overpriced. especially when you consider that kac don't even make their own barrels. and imho the barrel is the single largest contributor to a rifles' accuracy. kac machine some trick parts and then grab a bunch of top shelf components from other vendors and put it all together as a solution. i had no idea that the sass nsn package in that slick hardigg case was $15,000! what a joke.

regarding longevity, the fm says not to exceed a ridiculously low daily round count like twenty per day or something. things inside the upper reciever start to go loose real fast if you shoot a lot.

Interesting



KAC guns are expensive and somewhat over priced, but KAC did a lot development prior to putting the guns together. It came from a basic MK11 design that evolve into the SASS. The only thing KAC doesn't make is the barrel on the SASS and the Leupold scope. Of course a lot of support gear are sourced from oput side vender.

the things is everyone sourced parts from off the shelf. It was aCOTS gun, but not everyone's gun had the accuracy nor the reliability. We can debate how Knights has the inside track and all, but in the end, the KAC M110 came out on top and this is what our war fighter will be using in the future.

As far as the M21 in the hands of the LE, I can't recall a dept I visited that used a M21 or M14 as their primary precision rifle.

I have known Reed for 20 years and he does have the inside track as you say. I don't always know it is a level playing field when KAC submits items for trials against others. One I was witness to was a suppressor he had submitted. I saw the camparisons and witnessed it with my own ears. There were two others with better suppression and equal quality and construction. I believe he got the contract becuase he could guarantee delivery in higher quantities, at least that was the story.

There isn't a whole bunch of difference in the M110 and MK 11. I don't think there was "a lot of development" as he has had years to improve the weapon. They only changed a few things and how much difference they will actually make over a MK11 I don't know. I have not seen one yet but don't think his rifle is at a minimum double the price in value and performance over the others. My .02

[H2O MAN]

Yep, the Crazy Horse M-14SE SASS (http://www.athenswater.com/images/RSwCH.jpg) (aka SDM) is the heat on todays battlefield.
Ultra reliable, low maintenance Sub-MOA performance and it runs in all conditions.

Given the legal and performace problems associated with the KAC M110, yet
another re-birth of the M14 is just around the corner.

http://www.athenswater.com/images/TROY%2003.jpg

[maw]

If in fact that >.5 moa is correct for the SASS which I believe it may have on the first shot with subsequent shots being somethihg more, it still costs 4 times as much as an M40.

my experience has been the contrary. the first round does it's own thing and teh subsequent rounds which were cycled by the gas system maintained consistentcy.


You need to read up on the SEI Crazy Horse rifles. No bedding. These rifles run and are battlefield accurate.

yeah i'm familiar with the smith enterprises conversions. i was referring to the large majority of unconverted rifles out there. personally i really like the mike rock stock that was offered by troy that was subsequently copied and turned ito an abortion by sage.


I have known Reed for 20 years and he does have the inside track as you say. I don't always know it is a level playing field when KAC submits items for trials against others. One I was witness to was a suppressor he had submitted. I saw the camparisons and witnessed it with my own ears. There were two others with better suppression and equal quality and construction. I believe he got the contract becuase he could guarantee delivery in higher quantities, at least that was the story.

(i'm one of those fruits who still uses the term "silencer") i'm unfamiliar with his latest offerings but both the cans for the mk23 and the mk11 mod0 were crap (from a suppression capacity) when compared to the competitors models. both those firearms had funky mounting methods, the mk23 had a reverse thread and the mk11 had that proprietary collar in front of the gas block, the rifle actually shot worse with the can mounted.


There isn't a whole bunch of difference in the M110 and MK 11. I don't think there was "a lot of development" as he has had years to improve the weapon. They only changed a few things and how much difference they will actually make over a MK11 I don't know. I have not seen one yet but don't think his rifle is at a minimum double the price in value and performance over the others. My .02

i suppose this is capitalism and everybody has the right to make a buck. apparently the new factory in titusville is running three shifts just to keep up with .mil/.gov orders.

[H2O MAN]

... personally i really like the mike rock stock that was offered by troy that was subsequently copied and turned ito an abortion by sage.

That mike rock gas system conversion/relocation was a true abortion and
I am pretty sure SAGE had the retractable butt stock before TROY/ROCK.

The SAGE EBR is a rock solid, battle proven stock and the new TROY MCS
pictured above turns the M14 into a flat top battle rifle ~ a very nice upgrade.

[maw]

That mike rock gas system conversion/relocation was a true abortion and
I am pretty sure SAGE had the retractable butt stock before TROY/ROCK.

The SAGE EBR is a rock solid, battle proven stock and the new TROY MCS
pictured above turns the M14 into a flat top battle rifle ~ a very nice upgrade.

i understand your sentiment about the rock gas system. it's been a while but when spend some time with the sage system there were two things that screamed at me. i honestly can't remember the first but the second was the way the rear sight was mounted.

that troy mcs looks like the sweet ticket right there.

[SMGLee]

I believe he got the contract becuase he could guarantee delivery in higher quantities, at least that was the story.

When KAC's 300m sight was choosen, it was not the top runner, but Reed was able to deliver the amount of sights requested. same goes for M4QD even its SOPMOD2 guist. I think the ability for KAC to crank out product is unmatched by his competitors.




There isn't a whole bunch of difference in the M110 and MK 11. I don't think there was "a lot of development" as he has had years to improve the weapon. They only changed a few things and how much difference they will actually make over a MK11 I don't know. I have not seen one yet but don't think his rifle is at a minimum double the price in value and performance over the others. My .02

I agree, and I am not defending KAC as much as i am a KAC kool-aide drinker.
KAc packaged the SASS with hard case, drag bag, hard case within the main case for the scope, magazines, suppressor, tools, cleaning kit, and more tools. Leupold Scope with KAC mount, coyote paint and a modified Cav Arms stock. all in all, it is a highly developed system with a lot to offer, but I am in agreement with you... Damn..15k?

[mohica]

my experience has been the contrary. the first round does it's own thing and teh subsequent rounds which were cycled by the gas system maintained consistentcy.

Roger that. I was inferring that the accuracy of every shot may be consistent following the first but not >.5moa but something more. Remember this also, the rifle submitted for trial are all hand tuned versions. My guess is the rifles the gov't receives will be something a bit less.


yeah i'm familiar with the smith enterprises conversions. i was referring to the large majority of unconverted rifles out there. personally i really like the mike rock stock that was offered by troy that was subsequently copied and turned ito an abortion by sage.

I believe there are more good things in store for the M14 even though Klinton cut up 750,000 of them. Good deal for the taxpayers. Can you imgagine was a boon it would be to still have those rifles in inventory?
Ron Smith builds one helluva rifle with some updates and improvements.


(i'm one of those fruits who still uses the term "silencer") i'm unfamiliar with his latest offerings but both the cans for the mk23 and the mk11 mod0 were crap (from a suppression capacity) when compared to the competitors models. both those firearms had funky mounting methods, the mk23 had a reverse thread and the mk11 had that proprietary collar in front of the gas block, the rifle actually shot worse with the can mounted.


I suppose this is capitalism and everybody has the right to make a buck. apparently the new factory in titusville is running three shifts just to keep up with .mil/.gov orders.

No problem with capatilism. I just don't think our guys are always getting the "best". We are probably splitting hairs on a lot of stuff but it always amazes me how they can spend OUR money w/o a care in the world.

SMGLee, Reed is set up to produce, there is no question. I do believe that has some imputus as far as him getting probably more than his fair share of contracts, but that is not the only reason. The good ol' boy systems is still alive and well.

[maw]

Roger that. I was inferring that the accuracy of every shot may be consistent following the first but not >.5moa but something more. Remember this also, the rifle submitted for trial are all hand tuned versions. My guess is the rifles the gov't receives will be something a bit less.
all the mk11's i've fired were govt recieved. once broken in all shot at least .5 moa. the one rifle i got to spend the most time was tweaked by replacing the kac rings with beefier ones from badger, replacing the glass with nightforce optics, ditch the charging handle for a gas buster and ditch the kac 2 stage for an aftermarket target trigger. that rifle gave consistant groups of just over 1" at 300 yards (approx .3 moa) with m118lr (which is very similar to the black hills 168 grain load). i've personally fired gobs of rounds through that stick and it held up well. i know where that rifle is today and its still going strong. i personally liked the mk11 but the barrel was too heavy, the civilian marketed sr-25 light weight match (20" barrel) is noticably lighter but losses nothing that i could discern from an accuracy perspective. if you find a civvie light weight match with an obermeyer barrel snap it up. don't worry about the ras because titusville armoury can get urx's for the sr-25.


Klinton cut up 750,000 of them. Good deal for the taxpayers. Can you imgagine was a boon it would be to still have those rifles in inventory?
i wasn't aware of that, wow what a dumbass.

[HoboWithAK]

They very well may, I don't doubt it. I know our replacements in A-Stan had 21's. My whole point was that it was probably a personal preference to pick the 21's over the 24's. In an urban <500m shots, where rapid follow-up is needed, it's more practical. At those same distances MOA change isn't really a factor. I like the M14/21's and really don't think there's much out there that's better, just equal. I think one of the reasons that the Army went with the M110 is for familiarization. If I was a sniper downrange, I'd prefer to carry a M24 with a M4/ACOG for back-up. As I said, personal preference

From what i've heard, a few gentlemen behind the glass find the M110 to be a major step forward over the M24 for their typical engagements. Cold bore shots that rival an M24 out to 800 meters, and it can put out more accurate fire in volume than the M24.

[ABNINF]

Well, if that's the truth, then good on it. I'm just a fan of the 24. Maybe I'll get a chance to shoot one sometime and I can compare

[Seraphim]

When KAC's 300m sight was choosen, it was not the top runner, but Reed was able to deliver the amount of sights requested. same goes for M4QD even its SOPMOD2 guist. I think the ability for KAC to crank out product is unmatched by his competitors.


Who was the top runner? Troy?