RIP
those amphibious APCs need to be replaced soon, they are bloody old (and slow during water transit)
-aneep-
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RIP
those amphibious APCs need to be replaced soon, they are bloody old (and slow during water transit)
-aneep-
^^thx aneep. after this sad accident, the government finally realize, the TNI need brand new equipment. so sad it have took many live's first...
[FONT=Helvetica, Arial][SIZE=3][B]SBY orders replacement of aging TNI war machines[/B][/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Helvetica][SIZE=2][B]
Adianto P. Simamora[/B], The Jakarta Post, Jakarta[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica][SIZE=2]
President Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono on Monday ordered the Indonesian Military (TNI) to ground its aging warfare equipment and procure new arms through local financing. [/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica][SIZE=2] "We have decided to ground aging defense equipment. I will hand down sanctions on TNI leaders who ignore the order," Yudhoyono told reporters after a limited cabinet meeting on defense. [/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica][SIZE=2] The president's statement came after a 46-year-old amphibious tank sunk during a military drill in waters off the East Java town of Situbondo on Saturday, killing seven marines. [/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica][SIZE=2] The accident came just over one month after an old Nomad plane belonging to the Navy crashed in waters off Sabang in Aceh, leaving four crew members dead and another missing. [/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica][SIZE=2] The meeting, held at the Defense Ministry, was attended by Vice President Jusuf Kalla, Defense Minister Juwono Sudarsono, Coordinating Minister for the Economy Boediono, Finance Minister Sri Mulyani Indrawati and TNI Chief Gen. Djoko Santoso, among others. [/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica][SIZE=2] The President said he had issued an order to military leaders to phase out aging defense equipment long before Saturday's accident. [/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica][SIZE=2] He said much of the country's defense equipment, including Hercules C-130 and amphibious tanks, were produced in 1960s, making them too old to help defend national sovereignty. [/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica][SIZE=2] Director General of Defense Facilities Slamet Prihatino earlier said the TNI was still operating tanks and artillery canons produced in the late 1950s, and using aircraft that had exceeded flying hours, due to a small budget allocated to modernizing defense equipment. [/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica][SIZE=2] The President said the government would buy replacements for the old equipment using local financing rather than credit export. [/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica][SIZE=2] The Defense Ministry's shopping list this year includes four Russian-made Sukhoi jet fighters. [/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica][SIZE=2] The ill-fated amphibious tank that sank Saturday was among dozens of Russian-made amphibious tanks, submarines and warships taking part in the naval exercise. A Search and Rescue team found Monday the body of chief Sgt. Suryanto, who went missing after the accident. [/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica][SIZE=2] Yudhoyono also expressed his optimism the government would meet the deadline to resolve the long-debated military business problems next year. [/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica][SIZE=2] He said the team set up to examine military businesses was still formulating criteria for the businesses that could be kept by and taken away from the military. [/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica][SIZE=2] "We, of course, have to determine businesses suitable for the military. A cooperative is one of the businesses that fits the military," he said. [/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica][SIZE=2] The government has said only military business institutions with assets amounting to US$50,000 or higher will be handed over to the government. [/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica][SIZE=2] Home Minister Juwono earlier said only six businesses could be classified as profit-oriented military business from among the 1,500 firms which had previously been identified as military businesses. [/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica][SIZE=2] The minister said the Defense Ministry and the TNI would still be allowed to maintain some cooperatives and foundations, as long as they were not profit-making entities. [/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica][SIZE=2] The TNI has been involved in business since the late 1940s, but the practice expanded at the beginning of the New Order era in the early 1970s under former dictator Soeharto. [/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica][SIZE=2] Almost 70 percent of the TNI's annual budget is derived from its diversified business activities.[/SIZE][/FONT]
Does posting the picture of the deceased on the morque table really necessary?
It's a tragedy that these brave Marines died. I thought one last thing that we can do is to allow them some measure of dignity by not showing them in the state like the first 2 pictures above. These are real people, not CSI props.
I think the accident has gotten the message across to the country that the Marines are braving hazard every day by serving their country with obsolescent weapon systems - and yet they still served.
[quote=r0m8470;3026903]Does posting the picture of the deceased on the morque table really necessary?
It's a tragedy that these brave Marines died. I thought one last thing that we can do is to allow them some measure of dignity by not showing them in the state like the first 2 pictures above. These are real people, not CSI props.
I think the accident has gotten the message across to the country that the Marines are braving hazard every day by serving their country with obsolescent weapon systems - and yet they still served.[/quote]
is it really necessary?.. i dont know for sure. i hope you tell me. but thx for your kind attention. and if you like, i can edit the pics... i got this pic from marine public relation (dispen marinir)... and im assure you that i dont mean anything. i do respect the marine who dies. but maybe i show it in the wrong way... sorry..
[quote=karbol;3026950]is it really necessary?.. i dont know for sure. i hope you tell me. but thx for your kind attention. and if you like, i can edit the pics... i got this pic from marine public relation (dispen marinir)... and im assure you that i dont mean anything. i do respect the marine who dies. but maybe i show it in the wrong way... sorry..[/quote]
Yeah, I think that's disturbing. I would appreciate if you delete/edit it.
Makasih.
^^siap!! i'ts already done!!
3 meter high waves! Even the EFV / AAAV, which will become the new amphibious tank for the US Marines in 2015 only has the specification to "negotiate 8 foot (2,44m) plunging surfes". It was just idiotic from the superiors to send out the Marines under such weather conditions. Such an accident could have happened with newer vehicles just as well.
But, from a more technocratic point of view, what do you think will the BTR-50's be replaced with? The Marines have relatively new BTR-80's, they could buy more of them to replace the BTR-50's. And what other vehicles are affected by the President's "prohibition"? Indonesia has lots of stuff that could be called "ageing". Saracen, Saladin, BTR-40, AMX-13, K-61, Ferret and probably a couple other vehicles should not be much younger than the BTR-50's.
Photo from back then when the BTR-50 was still new:
[img]http://img150.imageshack.us/img150/2392/0003at5.png[/img]
[quote=DavidDCM;3027055]3 meter high waves! Even the EFV / AAAV, which will become the new amphibious tank for the US Marines in 2015 only has the specification to "negotiate 8 foot (2,44m) plunging surfes". It was just idiotic from the superiors to send out the Marines under such weather conditions. Such an accident could have happened with newer vehicles just as well.
But, from a more technocratic point of view, what do you think will the BTR-50's be replaced with? The Marines have relatively new BTR-80's, they could buy more of them to replace the BTR-50's. And what other vehicles are affected by the President's "prohibition"? Indonesia has lots of stuff that could be called "ageing". Saracen, Saladin, BTR-40, AMX-13, K-61, Ferret and probably a couple other vehicles should not be much younger than the BTR-50's.
Photo from back then when the BTR-50 was still new:
[IMG]http://img150.imageshack.us/img150/2392/0003at5.png[/IMG][/quote]
A reality for almost every soldiers is that they have to perform what they have been ordered to in almost any conditions. In modern developed countries, this is balanced with the strong appreciation for the value of human lives.
For example, after the tragic accident of the Australian Navy helicopter in Nias (2005), there was a strong outcry from the public regarding the safety of the armed forces' equipments. A special commission was created and it was found that the Sea King helicopter was in bad condition due to its age (mainly). Soon after that the government quickly decided to replaced the Sea King with other helicopter.
The main point is the value of human lives is very important regardless they are doing some of the most dangerous occupations on earth.
But in developing countries, due to many factors, old equipments were forced to performed beyond their safe age. Is it safe for everyone involve? Definitely no. Do the soldiers have any other choice other than continue using them as they were ordered? No.
I came from military family, I know first hand how it feels to have a 'death knock' where you have a fully uniformed officer informing your family that some members of your family will never came back again.
But for most of our soldiers (and officers) they don't have much choice than to continue using whatever they have regardless of the risk. Personally I hope that soon (very soon), Indonesia could replace most of it's most obsolete equipments thus minimizing the risk for the brave soldiers.
A Singaporean friend told me once that from his perspectives Indonesian soldiers standard is very high (he was in in Armed forces too). He said that the standard for soldiers (special ops) in Indonesia is that they are still alive after selection and training. That's how tough it is (according to him).
Just my two cent.
My sympathy for those soldiers and their families.
Did I say anything contrary? Of course the Marines themselves had no choice but to obey. The General or whoever was in charge of the whole maneuvre should have known better.
But it's one of the oldest truisms of mankind that serious **** has to happen before people in high positions realize something needs to be changed.
--------
[IMG]http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/1029/brimobpatrolidigebangredc3.jpg[/IMG]
Sorry, I was meaning to emphasize your point. You are totally right, soldiers have no other options than to obey their orders.
Back in 1980's a popular General M Jusuf (ABRI Commander at the time), was very concerned about the state of Indonesian armed forces, from the soldier's welfare to condition of the equipments. He did his very best to rectify the problems but unfortunately his tenure was cut short.
Some of his legacy, if my memory serves me right was new equipments like a number of AMX-10P, new standardized assault rifles, new warships etc. Indonesia has to wait for 20 years later for major procurement program like that.
He also re-trained 60 army batallions to become raiders qualified as well as pushing ABRI to conduct several major combined exercise. During his time, Indonesia also created the anti terror unit - Detachment 81. Above all, as commander his concerns is always about his soldiers from the quality of their foods to the state of their family housings.
^^ while you mention about AMX-10, this is pics of AMX-10 APC Version. i took this pics last year. beside the BTR-50, the marine also use the AMX-10. but they (the marines) said, AMX-10 have some technical problems. thats why we never see the AMX's widely use in operation. they said again, the BTR-50 are better than the AMX's....
[IMG]http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd112/karbol1978/PICT0450.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd112/karbol1978/MARINIR/PICT0449.jpg[/IMG]
about the new equipment, the marines spokesmen once told me, they want to buy about 160 BMP-3F. but its for replacing the PT-76. to replace the BTR-50 i think the marine would buy more BTR-80. but i have to confirm this first...
@aswp01: I'm sorry, in that case I misread your post. My apologies :)
--
I only found this news article about Indonesia being interested in BMP-3F:
[quote]
[b]Indonesia interested in Russian BMP 3F amphibious tank[/b]
Jakarta (ANTARA News) - The government of Indonesia became interested in the Russian-built BMP 3F amphibious tank on display at Indo-Defence Expo 2006 at the Jakarta International Expo (JI Expo) in Kemayoran, Jakarta.
Chief delegate of Rosoboronexport General Nikolai M Dimidiuk spoke about the Indonesian interest after escorting journalists for a look of the Russian pavilion on Friday.
"Indonesia has been studying the Sukhoi jet fighter, non-nuclear submarines and BMP 3F amphibious tanks. They are priority products," Nikolai said in Russian, with Varaksin Vadin of the Russian company acting as interpreter.
On the occasion, Nikolai extensively touched on the versetility and superiority of BMP 3F amphibious tanks capable of making manuevers in the water, firing in the water, and able to move fast up-and-down steelp hills.
Another advantage is that the tank relatively not heavy and armed with 100 mm calibre and 30 mm calibre guns firing ordinary shells, guided and unguided missiles, and can stay afloat for seven hours.
"With regard to the BMP EF amphibious tanks, we offer a special service and rustproof paint, so that the vehicle remains strong even in salty waters," he said.
Nikolai also made it clear that the Russian-made BMP 3F amphibious tanks are very sophisticated, with no country able to compete, including in price.
The price of a BMP 3F amphibious tank is much lower than the prices of American, French and German tanks.[/quote]
Old pics of TNI... during our war for independence, 1945-1950..
[IMG]http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd112/karbol1978/ANGKATAN%20DARAT/1976aa.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd112/karbol1978/ANGKATAN%20DARAT/2115aa.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd112/karbol1978/ANGKATAN%20DARAT/2769aa.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd112/karbol1978/ANGKATAN%20DARAT/a100aa.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd112/karbol1978/ANGKATAN%20DARAT/a1062aa.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd112/karbol1978/ANGKATAN%20DARAT/aurinq6.jpg[/IMG]
Please ID these units:
[IMG]http://img522.imageshack.us/img522/595/01hn3.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://img120.imageshack.us/img120/7582/72605275lg2.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://img218.imageshack.us/img218/3940/72605328fj1.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://img444.imageshack.us/img444/5994/72595793wk7.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://img209.imageshack.us/img209/9640/72595789pu2.jpg[/IMG]
Intermezzo
found this cool kopassus dude pic.. :D
[img]http://farm1.static.flickr.com/128/384510110_f1c48d3c1b.jpg?v=0[/img]
