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Thread: KRISS Super V System .45 ACP Submachine Gun

  1. #1
    Banned user Silent_Hunter's Avatar
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    Default KRISS Super V System .45 ACP Submachine Gun

    [*******#363636]KRISS Super V System .45 ACP Submachine Gun: Photos of Latest Prototypes[/COLOR]
    Posted on Sunday, January 21 @ 17:50:50 PST by [*******#0000ff]davidc[/COLOR]
    by David Crane
    david at defensereview.com

    This article contains photos (below) of the Transformational Defense Industries (TDI) booth and several KRISS Super V System prototype weapons at SHOT Show 2007. All photos below are the were taken by DefenseReview.com, are the exclusive property of DefenseReview.com, and are not to be reprinted or disseminated in any fashion without the express written permission of DefenseReview.com.

    The [*******#0000ff]KRISS Super V System[/COLOR] .45 ACP Submachine Gun was hands-down one of the coolest and most interesting small arms at [*******#0000ff]SHOT Show[/COLOR] 2007. Yes, the way the gun looks is part of what makes it so interesting. However the gun's unique operating mechanism is the single most interesting thing about it, and this mechanism is what dictates much of the weapon's configuration and physical appearance.
    In two of the photos below, you can see the weapon's operating mechanism assembly comprised of bolt/bolt carrier, "slider", and base plate, which are all connected. The weapon operates via delayed blowback. As the round is fired, the...



    bolt extension must first overcome an initial shelf. It then travels rearward along an upward-angled channel in the slider which pushes the slider virtually straight down the rod, which compresses the recoil spring against the base plate. After the spring reaches full compression, it pushes the slider back up, and the bolt back forward.
    [*******#0000ff]Transformational Defense Industries (TDI)[/COLOR] refers to the way the [*******#0000ff]KRISS[/COLOR] re-directs the recoil impulse (a.k.a. recoil forces) downwards as "re-vectoring" the recoil forces. The TDI website further claims that the KRISS "also reduces muzzle climb by activating a counter-balancing mass that further absorbs shock and re-directs forces that would otherwise create muzzle climb, thus compounding the operatorís ability to consistently put rounds on-target whether through single-fire, multi-round burst or full automatic firing." However, since the counter-balancing mass appears to be the slider, which is part of the mechanism doing the "re-vectoring", it would appear to all be part of the same process. The KRISS' bolt and slider are supposedly lighter in weight than on standard weapons due to the KRISS' unique design.

    Speaking of unique design, when you look at the weapon, notice that the bore is roughly in line with the trigger and below the grip tang. This configuration should also assist in pushing the weapon straight back upon firing, instead of pushing the muzzle up.
    Where recoil attenuation/mitigation really comes into play is on full-auto. The KRISS cyclic rate / rate of fire (ROF) can be adjusted from as high as approx. 1500 RPM (rounds per minute) to as low as approx. 650 RPM. Since the KRISS is supposed to mitigate recoil so effectively, full-auto bursts should be controllable, even when opeating at a very high cyclic rate (at least, theoretically). We'll see. Like we mentioned in a previous article, we didn't get the opportunity to T&E the KRISS at the range, yet.
    Upon handling the weapon at the [*******#0000ff]TDI[/COLOR] booth, I immediately and particularly liked the weapon's left-side-mounted charging/cocking handle, which is well designed and executed. When not being manipulated, the lever lays flat against the side of the receiver. Pulling the lever perpendicular to the receiver allows the shooter to inspect the chamber (i.e. conduct a "chamber check") to see whether or not there's a loaded round inside. Pulling the lever all the way to the rear, of course, chambers a round and charges/***** the weapon. It can also be used to eject a round or empty case (as part of a malfunction clearance procedure). This component is pretty slick (as in cool, not slippery).

    However, we found the separate safety and firing-mode selector switches curious. DefenseReview is used to integral safety/selector switches located at the operator's thumb for quick and easy access and operation. When we questioned one of the TDI staff about it, he said the separate safety and firing-mode selector were done at some end-user's request, but that they can do an integral safety/selector switch no problem. Defense Review would prefer the latter configuration. All of the above said, the [*******#0000ff]KRISS Super V System[/COLOR] .45 subgun is still under development. We don't yet know when the weapon will go into production, or how it will be priced. If/when it is finally offered to military and law enforcement end-users, the weapon will have to be reliable, durable, combat accurate, easy-to-maintain, and affordable if it is to be successful on the tactical small arms market. Time will tell.
    DefenseReview would like to thank Andrew Finn (Senior Vice President), Tom Maffin (Senior Gunsmith & System Demonstrator), and Tim Lindsay (Director, Technology & Engineering) for assisting us at the TDI booth.

    If you'd like more information on the [*******#0000ff]KRISS Super V System[/COLOR] Submachine gun (.45 ACP), we'd advise you to contact Andrew Finn at [*******#0000ff]Transformational Defense Industries (TDI)[/COLOR].



    Company Contact Info:
    Andrew Finn
    Senior Vice President
    [*******#0000ff]Transformational Defense Industries (TDI)[/COLOR]

    1776 K St. NW, 2nd Fl.
    Washington, D.C. 20006
    202-719-4123 Office
    202-719-3123 Fax
    [*******#0000ff]marine@gammart.com[/COLOR]



    Additional Photos:













    Related Articles:

    [*******#0000ff]SHOT Show 2007: DefRev Quick Hits 1[/COLOR]
    [*******#0000ff]DefRev Quick Hits 2: More 'Latest and Greatest' Tactical Goodies from the Show[/COLOR]
    [*******#0000ff]KRISS of Death: Unconventional and Deadly .45 ACP Subgun Makes It's Debut[/COLOR]

    http://www.defensereview.com/modules...rticle&sid=974

  2. #2
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    Sorry for being a party-****er, but:

    I understand the point of this weapon when firing the weapon as a pistol...

    However, when you mount a buttstock, and even angle it downwards, what is the point? Ideally, the recoil-impulse should be travelling straight back from the bore into your shoulder, so that you would not have to compensate the weapon in any way...

    I would rather have a "classic" submachinegun with a longer barrel within the same OAL...

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    That thing looks like a stapler. Seems like a lot of trouble to go through to control a pistol caliber. Usually, the extra weight of a sub-gun does that just fine.

    G

  4. #4
    idiot savant with a ban stick
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    I can see the value of the offset muzzle and chamber. The recoil mitigation is ideal as many subs use smaller calibers to do so. Having the punch of a .45 sub with the recoil attenuation of a small caliber is a great advantage. Usually I would expect some overly technical bolt design in a weapon looking for similar results. Instead the position of the bolt, bolt carrier and muzzle are repositioned to direct recoil straight back rather than upwards. The weapon is still a delayed blowback config.

    Article says the layout allows for lighter bolt assy and contributes to a lighter weapon. Great news for LE. Usually weight is what is used to compensate muzzle rise. If the mechanics of this sub mitigates the recoil effectively, then the extra weight isn't needed. Good for shoulder fire as well as hip and pistol shooting.

    Promising concept.. I would be interested in seeing more feedback and test results.

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    Not too fond of the externals, I wish it was less bulky looking.

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    Just a technical sidenote (and hair splitting ): the weapon isn't really delayed blowback operated. As it seems looking at pics, angle of cam in what is called "bolt carrier" is less than 45 degress to bolt path. That means, that "bolt carrier" travelles LESS than a milimeter per every milimeter of bolt movement in recoil, even if it moves vertically, so "bolt carrier" does not get accelerated at bolt's expense. No acceleration of "bolt carrier" means no deceleration of bolt, and lack of it means that bolt opening is not delayed. Its just blowback, but with peculiar two-piece bolt design, to make most of its mass travel vertically.

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    idiot savant with a ban stick
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kocur View Post
    Just a technical sidenote (and hair splitting ): the weapon isn't really delayed blowback operated. As it seems looking at pics, angle of cam in what is called "bolt carrier" is less than 45 degress to bolt path. That means, that "bolt carrier" travelles LESS than a milimeter per every milimeter of bolt movement in recoil, even if it moves vertically, so "bolt carrier" does not get accelerated at bolt's expense. No acceleration of "bolt carrier" means no deceleration of bolt, and lack of it means that bolt opening is not delayed. Its just blowback, but with peculiar two-piece bolt design, to make most of its mass travel vertically.

    "As the round is fired, the...
    bolt extension must first overcome an initial shelf. It then travels rearward along an upward-angled channel in the slider which pushes the slider virtually straight down the rod, which compresses the recoil spring against the base plate. After the spring reaches full compression, it pushes the slider back up, and the bolt back forward."

    This is the description after the article mentions delayed blowback design. Although not traditional, it does seem to have a mechanical delay. I am just inferring based on your technical description though.

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    Looks a bit bulky. But not nearly as much as the P90 that has become quite popular.

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    Well all I have are pics of the bolt device out of the weapon and thus out of proper alignment. If those proper angles are such, that "bolt carrier" does move any faster than bolt in crucial initial stage of recoil - the weapon indeed is delay blowback operated.
    ...Wait a minute: take a close look at second pic, at the cam just under bolt's crosswise 'pin' - lower part of the cam is of steeper angle than the rest! That strongly suggests that "bolt carrier" is made to move faster than bolt in first milimeters of its travel and that the weapon is delayed blowback operated!

  10. #10
    Member Paulinski's Avatar
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    Its plain Nasty

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kocur View Post
    Well all I have are pics of the bolt device out of the weapon and thus out of proper alignment. If those proper angles are such, that "bolt carrier" does move any faster than bolt in crucial initial stage of recoil - the weapon indeed is delay blowback operated.
    ...Wait a minute: take a close look at second pic, at the cam just under bolt's crosswise 'pin' - lower part of the cam is of steeper angle than the rest! That strongly suggests that "bolt carrier" is made to move faster than bolt in first milimeters of its travel and that the weapon is delayed blowback operated!
    OK.. you lost me.

    All I know is that if the thing is lighter and the recoil mitigates backwards instead of creating muzzle rise... it's worth a second look. Muzzle rise is a huge factor for .45 SMGs. I like the HK UMP.45 but the muzzle rize and recoil is a negative factor that leads me to lean toward an MP5 or other smaller caliber. If this type of mechanical set up acts effectively to control the recoil and muzzle rise.. the ergonomic weaknesses are small things to overcome.

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    Senior Member silveykyle's Avatar
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    Interesting weapon, thanks

  13. #13
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    We are going to put this through some T&E next month. We're not looking for a new subgun, but they offered; so I'll shoot anybody's ammo.

    Like Warpig noted, the design is purported to reduce muzzle climb, in .45 ACP to less than an MP5. They supposedly have a .308 and .50 in the works.

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    Senior Member sergey31's Avatar
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    Awsome looking weapon...... Reminds me something out of Quake or other Sci Fi games.

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    i would not buy that weapon even if i had the money.

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