What if Germany didn't invade Russia?
Branched off from the other "What if..." thread. http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums...d.php?t=115167
What would have happened had Germany not invaded the Soviet Union and the German-Soviet Non-aggression Pact stood. The war with the Soviets divided the German forces between two fronts. If they only had one front things might have been very different. Had Germany only had to focus it's efforts and resources to the Western Front, would it have made a difference in the outcome of the war?
Hitler's main ambition was the Soviet Union with it's "living space", natural resources, industry and food production. The campaigns to the west were just to ensure there was no second front as in World War II.
The Soviet Union's resources were vital to the survival of Germany and Hitler knew this but his meddling in all aspects of the war machine and economy sealed the fate of Germany.
If Hitler finished his war in western Europe (Britain) and in North Africa then the outcome of WWII might very well be different... Or it could have ended the same (as in Germany loses again) just been prolonged for a few years.
-Becuase on the downside of waiting to invade the USSR, the USSR would be building up its military forces as well. So when the time finally came, the Red Army would be well aware and prepared to fend off the Nazi invasion force.
not to mention the U.S. and other allies that would be helping the USSR.
-my 2 cents
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Well, first of all Hitler still couldn't have invaded Britain as he had no sizable Navy.
I think one of the main reasons behind Barbarossa is that Hitler had no where to send the Wehrmacht: Britain couldn't be invaded but was unable to threaten Germany on the continent, Spain was friendly, Switzerland and Sweden were neutral and surrounded, everyone else (Finland, Italy, Romania, Hungary etc) was on Hitler's side. Hitler had to always be invading someone it seems, so it was like a kettle bubbling off its lid.
Also Hitler's massive, sick plan was to kill all Slavic peoples by 1955 and replace them with Germans. Jews, Gypsies etc were the first priority for genocide but the Slavs were next in line. Fortunately the Nazis never got to carry this plan out completely.
All in all, like Leo Tolstoy argued in War and Peace, like Napoleon in 1812 it seems that Hitler had very little choice if he wanted to invade someone. Russia was the only realistic choice.
However, let's suppose Hitler didn't invade Russia. What would he have done? The obvious answer is renew efforts in North Africa and efforts to take down Britain. He might have finished the Graf Zeppelin, Bismarck and Tirpitz to form an invasion task force and renewed efforts to subdue the RAF. Would he have invaded Britain successfully? Would a potential fall of Britain have brought the USA into the war? I don't know...
If Hitler didn't invade, I've heard a lot of people say that Stalin would have invaded. I'll leave it to Lokos to say how feasible that was...
all the things have been set by God.....
Originally Posted by Hellfish6
True. Lokos, you have the stage!
Thats what I think would have happened too.
Stalin knew that there will be war with Hitler but he thought Hitler will want to finish UK first, while he will have time to prepare and take the fight to him when he is ready.
Just think of it Reda army invades in 1943 equiped with thousands of T-34 and KV tanks, while Wermacht still uses PzKpfW III, IV (apperance of T-34 was the reason the began developing Panther and Tiger). There would also be a lot of Katyushas, in the air there would be Il-2, Pe-2, Jak-,3, Lagg-5 instead of P-16 and Sb-2. It would have been an interesting fight.
The Tiger was in the planning stage before the war started, but there was no real urgency in its development till T-34s and KV-1s were met on the battlefield.Just think of it Reda army invades in 1943 equiped with thousands of T-34 and KV tanks, while Wermacht still uses PzKpfW III, IV (apperance of T-34 was the reason the began developing Panther and Tiger).
Personally I think Stalin would have invaded Germany had he been given the chance, but I think the all round worst possibility would have been Germany invading the Soviet Union when it did but actually treating the locals with respect instead of like cattle. There was plenty of collaboration in the west by Europeans who were at least treated as human by the Germans. If the Germans had treated the Soviets as semi equals then I doubt they would have listened to Stalin. With Soviet oil and steel and manpower, not to mention production capacity etc etc, Germany would probably have started planning to attack the US. I doubt they could have managed it, but an attack or even suing for peace with the UK could have led to a new world order with Hitler in charge of Europe. If he could get over his wanting to exterminate jews and communists and homo******s and gypsies and the mentally ill and physically disabled etc etc, he might have created a very powerful united europe. Of course if you could seperate the evil parts from the good parts of a man then why not do that to everyone and we'd all be happier and much nicer to each other...
England rules the waves.
The English would of returned all of it's fleets to home waters before any invasion got off the ground and even with mostly ww1 battleships lead by 5 relatively modern (1930's designed BB's) plus a number of carriers and limitless cruisers and destroyers the only German military personal who landed in England would of already been POW's
Despite threats of invasion England still had sizable fleets in the Med, Indian and Pacific oceans (including dominion navies). Not even the US at that point had the reach of the RN.
Which ever way you look at it. Either peace would of been declared or Germany would of been starved into submission.
The Soviets had no delusions about co-existing with the Greater German Reich. War would have come at any point from mid-1942 onwards. The Soviets, in 1941, were still reorganizing the RKKA and the VVS. That was the point of the Soviet appeasement during the period of 1939-1941; buying time.
As for the feasibility of a Soviet attack... It was very plausible. The expansion of the German armoured forces and the innovation that followed was largely as a result of planning for and experiencing the campaigns waged on the Eastern Front. Without that impetus pushing the Germans, realistically, the Soviets were improving by leaps and bounds, and would soon attain significant qualitative and quantitative advantages, in many respects. And an offensive Soviet campaign is exactly what Soviet doctrinal theorists and planners had been modulating the RKKA for during the 1930s. It was all about taking the initiative and keeping it.
Barbarossa, in some ways, was an unfair judgement on the 1941 professional RKKA. It was far too badly deployed, out of its defensive positions (the Stalin Line was only partially built, and remained unmanned), badly led, poorly equipped in terms of radios and modern machines and had terrible logistical difficulties. But the kernel of professionalism was there...
Agreed. Hitler's vision of the West was German dominion over relatively friendly, Aryan peoples. Not outright subjugation and expulsion. France and Britain were to be treated with a modicum of respect. This was not the case for the Soviets, for whom the Nazi party harboured a special hate. It was the East where Hitler would feel the least subject to common decency and good will in attaining his goals for the GGR.The campaigns to the west were just to ensure there was no second front as in World War II.
Agreed, in some respects.The Soviet Union's resources were vital to the survival of Germany
Quite unlikely.Would he have invaded Britain successfully?
Lokos
@ lokos - were the Soviets preparing for invasion ? whats the story there ? I'd assume they would have been planning for taking the war to Germany if they saw conflict as certain ?
Absolutely. There were numerous plans. Their main point of difference was where the bulk of the RKKA would be concentrated - north or south of the Pripyat Marshes? Eventually, the southern option prevailed. The primary German thrust in June 1941 against the forces arrayed north of the Marshes was a rude and unwelcome surprise for the Soviets, who believed the Germans would go after the resources and industrial potential of the Ukraine, first.I'd assume they would have been planning for taking the war to Germany if they saw conflict as certain ?
One unfortunate factor in Soviet planning was that they relied on a German attack to be absorbed, before an all-enveloping counter attack would win the war. The problem was that the Soviets had very little defensive training in mind. It was all about the spirit of the deep battle, pursued by highly mechanized forces with reams of artillery support.
By 1942-1943, however, it is likely that a Soviet attack without a German provocation would have been adopted as the primary plan for a hypothetical war.
Lokos
Since this is a "What if" thread, it seems right to point out that the correct English expression is "would have". Some of you keep on writing "would of", and it's driving me up the wall. I think you should learn some grammar before commenting on history.
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