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Thread: Soviet Communism and German Nazism/Fascism

  1. #1
    Banned user Kroforit's Avatar
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    Default Soviet Communism and German Nazism/Fascism

    I dont mean to offend any Russians or anyone else by posting my unbiased opinion.

    Many westerners, even though they dont always admit it, compare Soviet Communism to German Nazism/Fascism (I am combining Nazism and Fascism since I understand that they were the same thing during Hitler's rule.)

    In theory, proposed by the leaders, peace, equality and justice were the foundations of both ideologies. Both societies were being constructed practially identical to each other:

    -Passionate speeches promoting peace, equality and justice.

    -Mobilization of the whole nation to one cause, with the intention to make people think and act as if they were one man.

    -Creation of diverse social programs and activities, which were almost compulsory for everyone: summer camps, sport activities, physical labor, memberships in certain organizations, parades, marches, etc.

    -Indoctrination of all nation's youth: Hitler's Youth, Russian Pioneers.

    -Extensive military training throughout life, which started in youth programs and continued untill the person reached non-military age. To my understanding military training was claimed to be for the purpose of defending the nation.

    -Both ideologies proposed that their later generation would eventually become noticebly more advanced than other people in the world due to new understanding of humanity, which was the propaganda instilled into them from the early childhood, physical labor, and proper nutrition.

    There are more similarties in ideologies which I can't remember right now.

    -Both nations succeeded at implementing all these things in the begining but later became known as dangers to humanity to the rest of the world community.

    -Both nations (Russia, Germany) wanted their ideology to be spread all over the world.

    -Both Nations implemented repressive measures against certain groups.



    I remember Russian mp.net members arguing about how absurd the idea of building a monument for victims of an ideology is, but they forget that there are monuments for victims of fascism and nazism.

    I am looking for any kind of opinions.

  2. #2
    Banned user Kroforit's Avatar
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    It is also my opinion that Hitler and Stalin saw similarties in their rule and probably borrowed some ideas from each other, and that is why they signed a pact before WW2; but most likely, Hitler got greedy about sharing the world with another society, so after a successful rampage over Europe he was confident enough to attack Russia.

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    Member nnnn87's Avatar
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    -Both nations succeeded at implementing all these things in the begining but later became known as dangers to humanity to the rest of the world community.
    -Both nations (Russia, Germany) wanted their ideology to be spread all over the world.
    add democracy and usa also

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    Senior Member cinoeye's Avatar
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    Well, I do agree that communism and nazi regimes are very bad.

    I do not agree that democracy is bad, altought some countries with democratic regimes are doing bad things.
    nnnn87 I would be more concirned with organised crime and corruption, than fighting "imperialism".

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    Senior Member Xaito's Avatar
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    everything is just a matter of perspective - the west pretends to spread democracy all over the world to pursue its agressive geo-political interests just as much as soviet union or germany did and the differences were just in the detail.
    The rise and downfall of the systems was imo just triggered by political decisions of their leaders and not because of what kind of systems they were and we have yet to see how long this "democratic" systems will last.
    But whatever you say and whatever some people in the past might have done you can't forbid Russians and other former Soviet countries to be proud of their countries' pasts just as much as you cant forbid other countries to do the same - unless you force them by making their country capitulate and reeducate the people like it happened with germany.

    **** happend - most people from the former soviet union will agree and you can have a good discussion about it as long as you leave the generalizing "soviet union was evil" BS out of it - I don't know if I'm the only one who feels like its an insult to our country's history and to our ancestors of whom most were neither evil nor did anything of that kind no matter what ideology they might have believed in or not.

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    Senior Member StukaJr's Avatar
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    Give a person car with keys, no boundaries and a full tank of gas - where that person goes is not determined by manufacturer's slogan...

    In short, tyrants came and went in many disguises and exploited given situations and forms of government - often as a fear of something else... Give unchecked power to a small group of individuals and its constituents are in for a quite a ride - with all parallels to Stalin's repressions or Hitler's Final Solution you want...

    You do want to fear a government that comes to power by force and doesn't relinquish it peacefully and democratically... The new fear though, is that almost every "democratically" elected politician comes with a feed tube installed - where corporate and foreign parties could dump funds disguised as "campaign contributions"... Thinking like that gets you labeled as leftwing liberal wingnut, though

  7. #7

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    Well at least we Germans can forbid ourselves to be proud of the Nazi regime and instead acknowledge and be aware (not feel guilty for it) of what happened. This is not because Germans learn better of history it's simply because we lost the war.

    And although this was imposed on us from the outside I think it's a good thing. How can someone in his right mind want to be proud of mass murderers.

    Stalin or Mao weren't better than Hitler nonetheless people are still allowed to glorify their acts. This situation is nothing to whine about it's just proof of how history is written and moral is manipulated by the ruling powers.

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    Banned user Doublethinker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by afreu View Post
    Well at least we Germans can forbid ourselves to be proud of the Nazi regime and instead acknowledge and be aware (not feel guilty for it) of what happened. This is not because Germans learn better of history it's simply because we lost the war.

    And although this was imposed on us from the outside I think it's a good thing. How can someone in his right mind want to be proud of mass murderers.

    Stalin or Mao weren't better than Hitler nonetheless people are still allowed to glorify their acts. This situation is nothing to whine about it's just proof of how history is written and moral is manipulated by the ruling powers.
    Aww, don't feel bad. One day you'll get your right to glorify Hitler back.

  9. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kroforit View Post
    I dont mean to offend any Russians or anyone else by posting my unbiased opinion.

    Many westerners, even though they dont always admit it, compare Soviet Communism to German Nazism/Fascism (I am combining Nazism and Fascism since I understand that they were the same thing during Hitler's rule.)

    In theory, proposed by the leaders, peace, equality and justice were the foundations of both ideologies. Both societies were being constructed practially identical to each other:

    -Passionate speeches promoting peace, equality and justice.

    -Mobilization of the whole nation to one cause, with the intention to make people think and act as if they were one man.

    -Creation of diverse social programs and activities, which were almost compulsory for everyone: summer camps, sport activities, physical labor, memberships in certain organizations, parades, marches, etc.

    -Indoctrination of all nation's youth: Hitler's Youth, Russian Pioneers.

    -Extensive military training throughout life, which started in youth programs and continued untill the person reached non-military age. To my understanding military training was claimed to be for the purpose of defending the nation.

    -Both ideologies proposed that their later generation would eventually become noticebly more advanced than other people in the world due to new understanding of humanity, which was the propaganda instilled into them from the early childhood, physical labor, and proper nutrition.

    There are more similarties in ideologies which I can't remember right now.

    -Both nations succeeded at implementing all these things in the begining but later became known as dangers to humanity to the rest of the world community.

    -Both nations (Russia, Germany) wanted their ideology to be spread all over the world.

    -Both Nations implemented repressive measures against certain groups.



    I remember Russian mp.net members arguing about how absurd the idea of building a monument for victims of an ideology is, but they forget that there are monuments for victims of fascism and nazism.

    I am looking for any kind of opinions.
    [*******black]What gives fascism a bad name, is not the properties you have listed, but the ideology of racial superiority coupled with military aggression and widespread effort to perpetrate genocide. [/COLOR]

    [*******black]The practice of using the term as a derogative name is an attempt to project on a particular subject the essential characteristics of fascism (ones I have listed), solely on the basis of accidental characteristics (ones you have listed). Thus, Bush is often called a fascist, and I have read similar “analyses” comparing Bush administration to fascism as the one you have presented. These are elements of rhetoric, which include attempts to create a negative opinion of the subject by illegitimate means, i.e. fallacy of equivocation whereby two different senses of fascism are purposely confused, and fallacy of appeal to emotion. [/COLOR]

    [*******black]As far as some of the properties you have listed are concerned, then the Marxist-Leninist ideology and the Stalinist system do have certain similarities to German National-Socialist movement and the system it produced. However, the comparison could be extended to a number of other states throughout history. Some of the properties are present in different contemporary democratic states to a different degree – but these properties do not qualify a state as a fascist or a communist state. All states implement repressive measures against some groups, perhaps if you have specified the groups and the principle behind the determination what groups are to be repressed, you might have put your finger on the principle that is unique to fascism or communism – but you have failed to do this. You have also failed to do this with regards to draft, military training, compulsory programs, passionate speeches about justice, being more advanced due to deeper understanding etc... [*******black]These are not unique to either fascist or communist states.[/COLOR][/COLOR]

    [*******black]In other words, similarities along these lines as far as they are true are uninteresting.[/COLOR]

  10. #10
    Senior Member tsuri's Avatar
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    You basically listed multiple properties of a totalitarian state. Those can be applied to whatever state you please, not just Fascist/Socialist states.

    Some selective comments

    -Both nations (Russia, Germany) wanted their ideology to be spread all over the world.
    That is true for ideologies in general. With very few exceptions, political ideologies are universal and their followers seek to apply and spread them. Democracy is a good example because it starts more wars to spread itself than all the others.

    -Both Nations implemented repressive measures against certain groups.
    This is nearly universal for every state except maybe for liberal democracies but one can argue that the latter may also use repressive measures against enemies of their ideologies.

    I remember Russian mp.net members arguing about how absurd the idea of building a monument for victims of an ideology is, but they forget that there are monuments for victims of fascism and nazism.
    It is absurd. One can make a monument for the victims of the Soviet Union or the Soviet Sphere of Influence but an Ideology cannot be held responsible, it is an abstract concept, governments and thereby people are and should.

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    The Far Right gave us Hitler.

    The Far Left gave us Stalin.

  12. #12
    Banned user Doublethinker's Avatar
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    And Hegel gaves us both, the far right and the far left.

    We should build a monument dedicated to victims of Hegel's philosophy - it would encompass all victims of all fascist, nazist, nationalist, socialist and communist regimes.

  13. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kroforit View Post
    I dont mean to offend any Russians or anyone else by posting my unbiased opinion.

    Many westerners, even though they dont always admit it, compare Soviet Communism to German Nazism/Fascism (I am combining Nazism and Fascism since I understand that they were the same thing during Hitler's rule.)

    In theory, proposed by the leaders, peace, equality and justice were the foundations of both ideologies. Both societies were being constructed practially identical to each other:

    -Passionate speeches promoting peace, equality and justice.

    -Mobilization of the whole nation to one cause, with the intention to make people think and act as if they were one man.

    -Creation of diverse social programs and activities, which were almost compulsory for everyone: summer camps, sport activities, physical labor, memberships in certain organizations, parades, marches, etc.

    -Indoctrination of all nation's youth: Hitler's Youth, Russian Pioneers.

    -Extensive military training throughout life, which started in youth programs and continued untill the person reached non-military age. To my understanding military training was claimed to be for the purpose of defending the nation.

    -Both ideologies proposed that their later generation would eventually become noticebly more advanced than other people in the world due to new understanding of humanity, which was the propaganda instilled into them from the early childhood, physical labor, and proper nutrition.

    There are more similarties in ideologies which I can't remember right now.

    -Both nations succeeded at implementing all these things in the begining but later became known as dangers to humanity to the rest of the world community.

    -Both nations (Russia, Germany) wanted their ideology to be spread all over the world.

    -Both Nations implemented repressive measures against certain groups.



    I remember Russian mp.net members arguing about how absurd the idea of building a monument for victims of an ideology is, but they forget that there are monuments for victims of fascism and nazism.

    I am looking for any kind of opinions.
    I'm sorry, I cannot agree.I think both are equally as screwy and destructive as the other...Communism led to Nazism in Weimar's Republic. ..Nazism was formed to fight all-out communism while sharing certain ideologies that would entice people who once followed communism into joining the party... Nazis loved to have disillusioned commies join their ranks.

  14. #14
    Member loserbydefault's Avatar
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    both were created and financed by the same global banking elite to get ww2 etc started, and especially the soviet union was basically a "beta test" for the coming world system under the UN!...now most things from soviet russia are now standard in the "free" western world and considered "normal", for example we use terms like "political correct" or countries like australia made voting mandatory etc etc...what we have today is socialism, it has NOTHING to do with freedom or a "constitutional republic"...its TYRANNY!

    both systems have the same occult roots and worship the same "gods" (saturn etc) with their symbols!...check out the REAL meaning of the twisted swastika and the hammer & sickle and all the other symbols like the skull and crossbones or the five pointed star etc...and for some myterious reason both used a red square on their flags...

    http://jordanmaxwell.com/arcane.html

    and btw the soviet system already merged with the US system a long time ago deliberately!...it was planned that way by a bunch of inbred psychopaths aka the "global elite"...communism/socialism is THEIR system, it is THEIR IDEA!

    http://video.google.de/videoplay?doc...arch&plindex=0

    In pursuing his investigation, Mr. Dodd was invited to privately meet with Mr. Rowan Gaither, president of the Ford Foundation, a premier leftist organization active in funding Communist-oriented causes and strongly supported by liberals in Congress and the media.
    During this visit, Ford’s Mr. Gaither voluntarily made a stunning admission. He stated, "Mr. Dodd, we operate here at the Ford Foundation under directives which emanate from the White House...We operate and control our grant-making policies…as follows: We shall use our grant-making power so as to alter life in the United States that it can be comfortably merged with the Soviet Union."
    http://cuttingthroughthematrix.net/a...July132007.mp3 (very good explanation of socialism etc)

    http://www.criminalgovernment.com/docs/planks.html

    communism has never been defeated! it is well and alive...

  15. #15
    eye candy of death 2Sheds_Jackson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tsuri View Post
    It is absurd. One can make a monument for the victims of the Soviet Union or the Soviet Sphere of Influence but an Ideology cannot be held responsible, it is an abstract concept, governments and thereby people are and should.
    I'd disagree with that. Neither Hitler nor Stalin woke up one day with the ambition or capability to kill millions. They had lots of help - hundreds of thousands of people functioning within a system of clearly defined parameters. The system set up risks and rewards - some fought the system and perished while others used the system and became powerful. Therefore, I think its entirely appropriate to recognize the system as well as the individuals. Without the morality and social protections fostered by their respective beliefs/systems, both of these men would have just wound up as portly middle aged malcontents.

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