Reply With QuoteDon't say european when you mean english ...
European justice sucks!
3 and half years of jail to have tortured and killed a handicaped man.
Justice systems in European countries pretend to be "humanist", they claim to show a great "human right lesson" to the whole world (specially to the USA) in abolishing death penalty: they protect criminal more than victims.
look at this:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/m...de/7085654.stm
it's not better in France a murder payback is in fact 15 years of jail.Jail term cut for 'feral' killers
The pair also terrorised other vulnerable adults in the town
Two Cheshire teenagers who terrorised a vulnerable man before beating him to death and throwing his body in a river, have had their life sentences cut.
Craig Dodd, aged 17, will now serve a minimum of three-and-a-half years in prison and Ryan Palin, 15, three years.
The pair were dubbed as "feral" when they were jailed for life for the manslaughter of Raymond Atherton, 40, in Warrington.
They beat and urinated on Mr Atherton before dumping him in the River Mersey.
These are two very dangerous young men whose future progress will have to be very carefully considered
Judge Justice Rix sitting at the Court of Appeal
Despite the severity of their crime, Lord Justice Rix overturned the life terms and replaced them with sentences of detention for public protection, giving each a minimum tariff to serve before parole can be considered.
Lord Justice Rix decided the sentencing judge at Warrington Crown Court had not been right to impose life sentences for the killing.
He said: "We think it was an error of principle to say that a discretionary sentence of detention for life should be imposed."
"These are two very dangerous young men whose future progress will have to be very carefully considered."
David Atherton was regularly attacked by the pair
The court heard Palin, of Grasmere Avenue, Orford, and Dodd, of Lisguard Close, Runcorn spent months systematically abusing the victim, who had severe learning difficulties, in a process they nicknamed 'terroring'.
They regularly broke into his council flat on St Katherine's Way, Howley, where they wrote graffiti on the walls, burnt his hair and daubed his face with paint.
On the night of his death in May 2006, the boys were seen by neighbours beating him with planks of wood until he bled.
Days later his body was discovered floating in the River Mersey in Westy, Warrington.
The judge in the original trial described the killers as "feral, wild and untamed".
After Mr Atherton's killing it was revealed that he had been rehoused in a different part of the town by Warrington Borough Council when Palin and Dodd started their "terror campaign" against him.
They were arrested by police after boasting of what they had done to friends.
Judge Rix added: "Mr Atherton's life had been made a misery by the loutish behaviour of those who attacked him.
"They had not sought to kill, but this was a savage, cruel, brutal and vicious attack."
"Who commits murder shall die", it's less politically correct and "humanist" but more just...
Don't say european when you mean english ...
wtf is european justice? each european country has its own system EU pushes only few standards like lack of death penalty, and some other rest depends of country.
That is wrong.. so wrong..
Thank God that here those two little ****s would be rotting away in prison cells for the rest of their lives.
As if we were better...Originally Posted by Freibier
Don't say european when you mean english ...
Too little punishment for violent crimes in continental europe either. But nevertheless - I wouldn´t want to trade our judicial system for the US-american one.
You can find examples like this from just about any country, regardless of their justice system. A few anecdotes, however, are largely worthless in analyzing the justice system of a country.
Its depends on the due process system.
In England and in the US , Common Law based on precident is the norm.
In Scotland and most of Europe, the Roman or Napoleonic Code is used.
In the US we have the death penalty, but it does not prevent homicides from happening every day.
We also have mandatory sentancing for drug offenses, but that does not stop the demand for drug use.
I really don't know the answer.
All legislation within Europe has to be interpreted in a manner consistent with the European Convention on Human Rights, which is far more pervasive than just abolition of the death penalty - such as the implications of 'A right to a fair trial'.
This occurred in England, but in many EU countries, there are noticeably lighter sentences (than say, the USA) given for serious crimes.
Australia is not much better btw.
Does Europe have higher recidivism rates than the US?
Because we are dealing with humans, there is no "the" answer.
No. Pretty much evens out. BUT; Recurring offenders in the US tend to scale up in crime, while in Europe they stay on theire level or scale down.
Exceptions, as always, f*ck up that rule, but..........
You are correct that our legal system is based on common law, but the reality is that in the US criminal law is rarely if ever based on common law anymore. Most states and the federal criminal laws are based on a statutory scheme called the Model Penal Code. Every jurisdiction tweaks it a little but most are based on it. It has very little to do with the old common law crimes and tried to be a little more systematic.
The Federal system has mandatory sentencing for all crimes, not just drug crimes. Most states do not however. Now, the feds try to do as much of the drug prosecuting as they can, but mandatory sentencing is far from universal in the states.
That article is a little hard to follow (was it translated from French or something) but it seems like there was an issue about these criminals being minors. That is a problem area in the US as well. Its just never easy to prosecute minors as adults. It happens but it always complicates things. Dont' be too quick to judge the English system based on this incident. The chances that this article says everything the judge had to consider when he reduced the sentence are very low.
hank
Thanks Hank!!!
Glad to be of service.
As to the recidivism comments, I don't think there is really any good data that punishment is a deterrence to repeat criminal activity. Here is a study about recidivism in the US. Basically recidivism is on the rise despite an increased focus on punishing US criminals.
http://www.cor.state.pa.us/stats/lib...sm%20Study.pdf
Wikie says, "As reported on BBC Radio 4 on 2 September 2005, the recidivism rates for released prisoners in the United States of America is 60% compared with 50% in the United Kingdom but cross-country statistical comparisons are often questionable. The report attributed the lower recidivism rate in the UK to a focus on rehabilitation and education of prisoners compared with the US focus on punishment, deterrence and keeping potentially dangerous individuals away from society." See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recidivism
Hope I'm not getting off topic but I think this fits in the topic. If not please don't put the stick on me DW.
I remember how shocked I was in law school when I saw the data on "deterrence." Pretty compelling arguments that people are not deterred by the punishment they (or others) receive. The primary reason is criminals don't believe they will be caught for any number of reasons (high for example) or are in a situation where they don't care.
hank
One other funny fact I forgot to mention. The US state Louisiana still has a civil code which is based on Napoleanic Code as its state law. If you go to law school in LA you get 2 degrees, a Juris Doctor and a Bachelor of Laws in LA state law. You actually go an extra semester from every other law school in the US. The LA bar is basically impossible to pass unless you get that BL degree. So, the Napoleanic Code (modified to be sure) lives on in the US. Go figure.
And Louisiana is notoriously tough on criminals. Think Angola state prison which has been the subject of several movies.
hank
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