US/Israel Relations..?

[Owl]

I really don't get it why the US give away this 3 billion$ equipment a year to Israel. Okay they are used to buy stuff in the US. But if the US wants to support it's industry by giving away weapons, say an apache. Then why don't give them to some of the real allies??? Those who fight in afgnasitan and iraq shoulder by shoulder with US forces? Like the british, the dutch and the danes who could really use some Apaches.

[dimasorokine]

I believe IDF_Tanker and I discussed this subject in another thread, and he made some good points on how the United States has used Israel for its own interests without much concern for Israel’s, so I don’t believe its as one sides as some members say it is…

However, I strongly believe that the US – Israeli relationship is more than just national interests and strategic alliances, it also has to do with race, religion and self preservation. And that is something a lot of the members of this forum are afraid to discuss for fear of being banned or labeled racist, anti-Semites, DAOTW etc.

If we throw the censorship that is political correctness out the window on this subject then we can discuss the subject of US – Israeli relations while taking human nature, race and religion into account.

-Dima

[Kaplanr]

On the one hand Zinny is absolutely correct; the neo-cons hijacked US foreign policy for whatever their motives. You also can't deny that even more American Jews were on the other side saying the Necons were full of BS. Wolfowitz and Co. may have been enamored of Sharon or Bibi as tough guys, but neither one of them were calling the shots. THe neocons have a lineage going back with Rummy and Cheney a long ways.

[Rudolph]

Some info on the 1948 IAF: http://iml.jou.ufl.edu/IsraelVets/airforce2.htm

[Spuyten_duyvil]

When you start paying us your tax money I'll believe that ...

Are you really a lieutenant in US Armed Forces?
Thats scary.

[Hollis]

. And that is something a lot of the members of this forum are afraid to discuss for fear of being banned or labeled racist, anti-Semites, DAOTW etc.

If we throw the censorship that is political correctness out the window on this subject then we can discuss the subject of US – Israeli relations while taking human nature, race and religion into account.

-Dima

Ever thought it is not what you say it is how you say it.

Your statement is one of the most common defense for racist to use. Some of us may have been born at night but it was not last night.

It doesn't matter if it is Israel, Blacks, Mexicans, or others, using bigoted expression tend to say that the speaker is a bigot.

[Hollis]

Are you really a lieutenant in US Armed Forces?
Thats scary.

Read his "special title". What ever connection a person's nick name has to that person can be anyone's guess.

[chaos]

US/Israel relations ...?

Basically ... they say: jump, we ask: how high ...

Like chaos said they buy a lot of weapons from us with OUR OWN money. Yes, they make their own too, financed by us also ... I know, I know we are still so ungreatfull to our bestest greates "ally" ever ...

actually u should thank us, without us your air force could lose in any dod fight with this crap AIM9.

when we buy weapons from you, a lot of countries will buy them from u. we dont need u to be the 4th largest weapon exporters in the world.

about iraq - u have lack of knowledge and its sad. oh, and BTW, without israeli help, your troops would probably run out of ammo and die in urban fights. we trained your soliders (i wont spend my time on story about the air force... )

without israel and without jews, USA wont stay the most powerful country on earth.

good luck with the AIM9X and the THAAD.

[gaijinsamurai]

On the one hand Zinny is absolutely correct; the neo-cons hijacked US foreign policy for whatever their motives. You also can't deny that even more American Jews were on the other side saying the Necons were full of BS. Wolfowitz and Co. may have been enamored of Sharon or Bibi as tough guys, but neither one of them were calling the shots. THe neocons have a lineage going back with Rummy and Cheney a long ways.

Very true. Even though Wolfowitz, Perle, and some other neocons happen to be Jewish, I think the majority of Jewish Americans happen to be very liberal, and very much against most of our current presidential administration's Middle East policies. If anything, the neocons have received more support from Christian evangelicals.

[dimasorokine]

HOLLIS,

“Ever thought it is not what you say it is how you say it.

Your statement is one of the most common defense for racist to use. Some of us may have been born at night but it was not last night.”

Unfortunately that is true, real racists and anti-Semites often hide behind a logical foundation to push their agendas. It is also unfortunate that everyone that uses this same logic foundation to discuss natural relations between nationalities, ethnicities and religious groups without any intentions to demonize a certain race is also labeled a racist.

I’ve often discussed anti-Semitism with the members of a Jewish community center I’m a member of. And just as I thought, most Jews agree that REAL anti-Semitism comes from the double standards applied to “protect” Jewish people…To me, laws that put anti-Semites in prison throughout Europe and the often untouchable subject of Jews and politics can be considered an agenda in itself to spread anti-Semitism…and actually give more power and reasons for anti-Semites to demonize Jews.

"It doesn't matter if it is Israel, Blacks, Mexicans, or others, using bigoted expression tend to say that the speaker is a bigot"

Well, as someone who is interested in Race, Ethnicity and natural relations between people I can say that “racism” is a natural part of human nature, and so is prejudice. Every single one of is a racist or bigot in one way or another – its only when this type of attitude towards other races actually influences our lives and the way we interact with other races that it becomes a problem.

The funny thing is, as “racist” as this may sound – white people are a lot less likely to understand this (white guilt?). Whenever I have serious “no holds barred” discussions about race it is usually with my black friends, my girlfriend, the Jewish guys I play ball with at the community centre etc. White people usually shy away and feel uncomfortable talking about these taboo subjects.

-Dima

[Hollis]

Dima, Good reply, can not argue with you to much. Maybe some small differences in perceptions. Interesting aspect of the internet, until we type something, no one has a clue about us. Not like in real life when you see a person first.


Racism comes from compartmental thinking, not sure if this is only a trait in Greco/Roman cultures or how it applies to others.

There are degrees of racism as to how it impacts the person or the targeted person. A person can be a racist and not really have any ill feelings towards the other person. The most basic definition is if that person's race is a factor in how you think of them, then that is racist. Same can be applied to sexism.

Example, Bob, is a black guy who lived down the street, or Bob lives down the street.

Bob is my friend, or Bob is one of my black friends.

There are no ill intents in either statement.

Too often racism is only view when there is a hostile intent.


"Bob is Green person, and we all know what green people are like."

My favoite, "that is very white of you."

Racism is very human characterist, so is eating and other things, but as a people we learn to differenciate what is good and what is not good. Like eating, cannabalism is full filling the need to eat but it is a major social taboo, unlawful and is considered to be very wrong.

Racism also falls under the logic error of equivocation.

There is alot more to this discussion. Back on topic...

In the Israeli US alliance, one of the views held by those who are antagonistic to Israel to the point of hoping for the demise of Israel, this relationship needs to go. It is felt that without US support Israel would fall. As with all issues, there are Political reasons, economic reasons, religious reasons even racist reason to see Israel fail. A person may accept all those reasons or just one or two. They may even have their own choice reasons.

There are many reasons for alliance and every member knows that alliances are not 100% in their favor. Every country will do what they preceive is in their best interest. Alliance only work when everyone is getting something positive out of it.

[dimasorokine]

HOLLIS, interesting analogy with eating And I thought I was going to have to spend the whole day debating you on this subject...I would however like to add a little more to the racism topic...

Saying racist things does NOT make one a racist and we are too quick to label someone racist or anti-Semitic, or homophobic etc. just based on something they type up on a forum or say out loud. Most people are guilty of using racial slurs, jokes and generalizing when they have a bad experience with a member of a certain race…however, as long as we understand our racist behavior was a mistake and don’t let it affect our life and the way we interact with that race we are not racist. On the other hand, if we let a bad experience with black people effect the way we view and interact with them for the rest of our lives, then we are living racist lives and can be considered racist…

But even then, some racists deserve a “break” as they have their own personal reasons to act and feel the way they do. For example: a Jew’s hateful and racist behavior towards Palestinians is understandable, and a Palestinian’s hate towards Jew’s is also understandable – naturally, these people will hate one another considering their history and interaction over the last few decades (this does not make it “right”, but it is predictable and almost unavoidable for most people)

The inexcusable racists are those people that hate and dislike another race for no real personal reasons, and hate them for being different or more successful than they are.

With that being said, I believe ethnicity and religion has a major part to play in today’s relations between Israel and the United States – especially when you take Islam and Arabs into account.

-Dima

[Hollis]

The inexcusable racists are those people that hate and dislike another race for no real personal reasons, and hate them for being different or more successful than they are.


-Dima

Look up equivocation. You'll find my answer. Yes, there are degrees of racism. Some forms of racism maybe more palatable than others, but it stems from the same bases.

Same with acts of terrorism, once you justify a act of terrorism the threshold has been crossed. The idea is to make it socially unacceptable to sponsor racism or terrorism. Not to say, it is appropriate under certain situation. Again, look up equivocation.

[Rudolph]

dima,

Off topic, but great post! As you said, Jews and Arabs who hate each other do not do so because it is a fun thing to do, it is a "natural" evolution considering the circumstances. And if those problems disappeared, so would the "racism." But alot of neutrals are put off by the anti-Semitism labels which are thrown around quite easily. Am I an anti-Semite because I think the Holocaust Denail-laws are a bloody disgrace to modern society?

The US government probably doesn't care more about Jewish people than it does for the British, French, etc. And if they ever had to choose, they'd choose the ally with the best benifits, government is business at the end of the day.

[Hollis]

Rudolf, good points. I have found that some people will exploit what ever advantage they can. Even falsely using claims suchs as antisemitism, racism, sexism, etc. C'est la Vie.


All nations operate basically under anarchy on a global scale. Some are more moral than others and I don't think any nations trust another nation 100%. Each will do what is in their perceived best interest if they can get away with it.


I agree, the US is not that attached to Israel or visa versa. The Israels being smaller players in the world know that too.