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Thread: There are no 'constitutional' rights

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    Garand Member Ought Six's Avatar
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    Arrow There are no 'constitutional' rights

    I saw on another thread a member saying, "the Constitution gives us the right to...." This statement is dead wrong, and it represents a common ignorance of our fundamental American philosophy that is a real sore spot for me. The Constitution refers to some rights, but it gives no rights to anyone. Rights are inalienable. To explain, I am posting an essay here which I wrote a while back.

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    Inalienable Rights and Natural Law


    The idea that certain rights are inherent and inalienable to all people is called 'natural law'. It's a concept that has been defined by many writers and philosophers over the last half-millenia or so. Natural law proposes that human beings have rights that inherent to their very fundamental nature as social beings. The idea sprang from the observation that all successful human social constructs have certain common features, behaviors that define the basic social contract. This is what we might today refer to as our instictive social behaviors, sort of like a highly refined herd instinct thats hard-wired into our 'wetware', the natural basic programming we're born with that defines us as social animals. If you look at a family, a clan, a tribe, a government, you will see these basic behaviors, and the trouble caused when these behaviors are frustrated. Because these behaviors are necessary for the survival of a human social construct, we codify them as 'rights' which cannot be denied; in other words, inalienable rights. They are an integral part of our humanity, and are not dependent upon or granted by any constitution, declaration, compact or agreement. They can certainly be violated, but they cannot be logically declared nonexistent.

    All of our inalienable rights derive from the right to live, obviously the most fundamental right of all. You can easily derive the right of self-defense, the right to persue a living for you and your family, the right to property to keep a roof over your head and the tools to provide for your basic needs, etc., all from the right to live. Also, there is the right to self-determination, as people that don't have the right to govern themselves are slaves and have no real rights at all. Equal protection under the law is another such right, as if there are special priveleged classes, you are diminishing those who don't enjoy those special privileges and destroying any semblance of fairness in the society, which is a severe danger to that society's stability and survival.

    Early writers on the subject of natural law were living in monarchical theocracies, so although natural law is derived from logical observation and deduction, they used the device of describing inalienable rights as 'God-given' to prevent being branded heretics and atheists. The faithful still refer to inalienable rights in this context today. This didn't always work, as the church was dead-set against natural law because it denied the Divine Right of Kings to rule, and thereby threatened the very basis of the church's power. Thus, many natural law authors were persecuted by religious and government authorities. Even today, some religious people who don't understand the concept of inalienable rights and its origin insist that natural law is the basis of atheism. History show that this is false, as most natural law authors were devoutly faithful themselves.

    There was no nation governed under natural law principles until America declared its independance and created the first secular government in modern history. The Founding Fathers, while most of them were devout in their faith, had the wisdom and integrity to kick both the King and the Archbishop out of the palace of governance. They in no way denied religion, they simply forever seperated religious authorities from governing or legal powers, and established the principle of freedom of worship (or to not worship at all). No more Divine Right of Kings, no more total obedience to the Monarch on pain of death, no more governmental authority supposedly derived directly from God through the state Church, no more insitutional religious persecution, and no more government tyranny. The highest authority in the land became the common citizenry, and the ruling aristocracy was deposed. It is this that made America the revolutionary new nation that is was, unlike any that came before it or any other nation of its time.

    Today, Americans have little understanding of inalienable rights and none at all of natural law, most never even having heard of it. That would be utterly appalling to our Founding Fathers if they could see America today, with the people being clueless about the fundamental principles of their own nation and the legal system that defines it. Hopefully, this essay will help a little.
    Last edited by Ought Six; 03-13-2008 at 02:20 PM.

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    Senior Member hank's Avatar
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    Not to pick nits, but in our American government the Constitution does "give" rights. I think the point you are making is the rights exist without the Con but that the Con simply refers to them. That is semantical IMO. Try to get the "right" to do something not in the con or some other law and see what happens. You don't have that right.

    Read the first 10 Amendments to our constitution. Commonly referred to as the "Bill of Rights." Many of them are abstract to be sure, but the second A is even entitled "Right to bear arms." That clearly gives American a "right."

    The 4th Amendment says, "The right of the people . . . ."

    The 6th Amendment is entitled "Rights of the accused."

    The 7th Amendment references "the right of trial by jury. . . ."

    I fail to see how this document doesn't "give" these (and other) rights in this country. Without this document you could not enforce many of these "rights."

    Maybe I am missing your point.

    hank

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    Member Shellshock1918's Avatar
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    The Constitution doesn't give anyone rights, it protects those rights from government. It assumes that you have those rights given to by God or just by the nature of freedom.

    That's what people in this country fail to understand. The US Constitution is meant to restrain the government, not the people.

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    Senior Member hank's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shellshock1918 View Post
    Well thats correct.

    The Constitution doesn't give anyone rights, it protects those rights from government. That's what people in this country fail to understand. The US Constitution is meant to restrain the government, not the people.
    OK, but why does that matter? If a "right" you want is not enumerated in the BoR or elsewhere, how do you enforce it? You can't.

    Maybe the lawyer in me can't get this theoretical. The fact is if you want a right (and more importantly to be able to enforce it) then you better find it in the BoR or in another law. Otherwise you can sit next to your "right" in the pokey.

    hank

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    Garand Member Ought Six's Avatar
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    h:

    Again, the Constitution does refer to; or, if you prefer, enumerates; certain specific rights. But the idea that the Constitution grants rights is against everything our Founding Fathers stood for. If that were true, without a Constitution people would have no rights whatsoever; essentially, they would be chattel without a piece of paper. That idea is nonsensical. The whole idea of inalienable rights is that they do not depend upon any document or agreement. They simply exist as a facet of our humanity; or for the faithful, they are God-given rights. This is the principle upon which America was founded. And it is also refered to in the Ninth Amendment:
    The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people."
    Again, it says that rights are enumerated by the Constitution, not given by the Constitution. In other words, the Constitution is merely listing some rights that already exist, not creating them.

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    Cunning Linguist Ratamacue's Avatar
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    Hooray for nitpicking.

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    Garand Member Ought Six's Avatar
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    h:
    "OK, but why does that matter? If a "right" you want is not enumerated in the BoR or elsewhere, how do you enforce it? You can't."
    This is a horrible statist philosophy; that you only get the rights specifically listed in the Constitution. The Ninth Amendment puts the lie to that idea, as do all the writings of our Founding Fathers. The SCotUS has frequently ruled in support of rights not enumerated in the Constitution for this reason.

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    Senior Member hank's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ought Six View Post
    h:

    Again, the Constitution does refer to; or, if you prefer, enumerates; certain specific rights. But the idea that the Constitution grants rights is against everything our Founding Fathers stood for. If that were true, without a Constitution people would have no rights whatsoever; essentially, they would be chattel without a piece of paper. That idea is nonsensical. The whole idea of inalienable rights is that they do not depend upon any document or agreement. They simply exist as a facet of our humanity; or for the faithful, they are God-given rights. This is the principle upon which America was founded. And it is also refered to in the Ninth Amendment:Again, it says that rights are enumerated by the Constitution, not given by the Constitution. In other words, the Constitution is merely listing some rights that already exist, not creating them.
    I see your point, but the 9th has never been interpreted that way. In fact its hardly ever interpreted at all. It was a passing nod to those who wanted more than 10 Amendments in the BoR or wanted them to be more precise.

    To me this is kind of silly and pie in the sky. Look at the 2nd A, it gets railroaded all the time bc people vote for limitations on the right to have guns. We elect idiots and idiots limit gun ownership. We allow it. The fact is that we have whatever rights a court says we do. Inalienability is only relevant to the extent a court agrees with you.

    Ask yourself this. If the 2nd A was voted out tomorrow could Congress take away your right to bear arms? Yes.

    Is there a right to be free from search without the 4th A? Heck no. Even with the 4th A people get searched by LEO all the time. Its not a right, and it sure isn't inalienable.

    2nd point, you mentioned the "right" to defend yourself. I'd submit that "right" does not exist. It is a legal theory that you can use to justify some use of force, but you have no right to it in this country. It can be and is infringed all the time.

    How do you go about enforcing these "rights" that you have that aren't enumerated?

    hank

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    Member Shellshock1918's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ought Six View Post

    But the idea that the Constitution grants rights is against everything our Founding Fathers stood for.
    Exactly. The Constitution doesn't grant any rights, it protects individuals from government taking away those rights.

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    Senior Member hank's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ought Six View Post
    h:This is a horrible statist philosophy; that you only get the rights specifically listed in the Constitution. The Ninth Amendment puts the lie to that idea, as do all the writings of our Founding Fathers. The SCotUS has frequently ruled in support of rights not enumerated in the Constitution for this reason.
    I'm sorry, I've read a lot of SCOTUS and I don't see them sua sponte giving any rights. They always "find" them in the BoR or some other statute.

    If the point you are making is that the Con is a govt limiter, then I agree.

    If you are arguing that theoretically rights exist independent of hte Con, I'm with you.

    If you think you can enforce a "right" that's not in the BoR or another statute, I just disagree. "Rights" exist in practice only to the extent that you can find a legal basis for them.

    hank

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    No Good Bloody Seppo California Joe's Avatar
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    I want the right to bang hot hookers without losing my job. Get right on that for me will you hank?

    Your pal, Spitz.

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    Senior Member hank's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by California Joe View Post
    I want the right to bang hot hookers without losing my job. Get right on that for me will you hank?
    You got it. Here's the plan. You bang the hot hookers, preferably on film for evidentiary purposes. When you get arrested we'll go to the local Vermont Court and I'll argue that your right to bang hot hookers is inalienable. I'll cite the Decl of Ind andthe 9th Amendment.

    Its a sure fire winner. No worries.

    hank

  13. #13
    Garand Member Ought Six's Avatar
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    h:
    "I see your point, but the 9th has never been interpreted that way. In fact its hardly ever interpreted at all. It was a passing nod to those who wanted more than 10 Amendments in the BoR or wanted them to be more precise."
    This is a totally false statement. The Ninth was interpreted exactly that way right up until the 20th century. It is only in modern times that the vile enumerated rights doctrine took over our courts.
    ----------
    "To me this is kind of silly and pie in the sky."
    Such an attitude would make our Founders, with the sacrifices they made to give us our liberty, puke blood.
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    "The fact is that we have whatever rights a court says we do. Inalienability is only relevant to the extent a court agrees with you."
    To an extent, that is true. But more fundamentally, you only have the rights you are willing to fight for. The Dred Scott decision created an American apartheid, but Blacks took on the legal system in starting in the 1950s and force the nation and the courts to change. So it does not, in fact, end with the courts. You can take it to the streets. Or you can sit on your butt and watch your rights slowly erode to nothing, as we have done with the Tenth Amendment.
    ----------
    "Is there a right to be free from search without the 4th A? Heck no. Even with the 4th A people get searched by LEO all the time. Its not a right, and it sure isn't inalienable."
    You clearly do not know the definition of the term 'inalienable'. It is not interchangible with 'absolute' or 'inviolate'. According to Webster's, the definition is: "incapable of being alienated, surrendered, or transferred". So just because your rights are violated does not make them any less inalienable. You still have them, even when the government pisses all over them.
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    "2nd point, you mentioned the "right" to defend yourself. I'd submit that "right" does not exist. It is a legal theory that you can use to justify some use of force, but you have no right to it in this country. It can be and is infringed all the time."
    Again, you misunderstand what a right is. The law frequently violates our rights. That does not change the existence of that right. We absolutely have the right to self-defense. In the English common law legal system our American system is founded upon, self-defense is a well-established and recognized defense in the use of deadly force. That is still true in every state in this nation. States try to limit the tools you can use to defend yourself, and try to screw with the determination of what is and is not justified self-defense, but any legal scholar would laugh out loud at the claim there is no right to self-defense here, and justly so.
    ----------
    "How do you go about enforcing these "rights" that you have that aren't enumerated?"
    As I already said, this is done daily in the courts in this land. Also, refer to my comments above about fighting for your rights.

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    No Good Bloody Seppo California Joe's Avatar
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    Oh, here we go.

    Now all this thread needs is 2Sheds and several alcoholic beverages...

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    What is real?

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