i enjoyed it a lot but id rather have it in 9mm.Originally Posted by †Seraphim†
dislike the .40, .45 or 9mm are the only choices for me. 9mm if you need high cap 45 if you need reliable power.
not sure why but hate the recoil on the .40, as bad karma posted it is a little too snappy for my taste.
For a CCW I would go 9mm, higher cap smaller package.
yeah...9mm is higher cap but i dunno i just like to line up a 9mm Para, .40S&W, and a .45ACP and im like hhmmm there is SUCH a huge difference, but i have little to no experience with 9mm...it just seems (to me) that a .45 would just put someone from standing to right on there ass in a manner of a few secs.
does anyone know what branches of police, govt agencies and so forth that use .357SIG?
No service handgun cartridge will put someone on their ass, unless he/she on the receiving end is in so much fear that he/she falls because of the shock & panic.
Texas DPS, Virginia State Police and Secret Service that I know use .357SIG
There are quite a few police departments across the country that switched from 9mm to. 357SIG. But I haven’t heard of any agency switching to this round from .40 or .45
Come on, did I say carbine length rifles? Pressure at the muzzle? etc... Read carefully.
And if you are unable to notice a clear difference in recoil, I can not help you. Other than that it is simple highschool Newtonian physics that apply to everything, even shooting. Trust me I know what I talk about.
-jippo
This is what you said
No need to help me with this as I know what I'm talking as well.Compare .223 and 7.62 in carbine for instance. .223 has very high pressure still at the muzzle, but significantly less recoil. Reason is that .223 also has only 2/3's of the kinetic energy [E(k)] of the 7,62x39.
Both rounds have high pressure at the muzzle, .223 is nearly identical as "standard" military 7.62x39mm. As a matter of fact military 7.62x39mm is 52,000 cup vs 50,000 for .223 per SAAMI specs. You weren't talking about 5.56x45 so I'll leave it out.
Like I mention before there is no "SIGNIFICANT" recoil between AK and M16. I'm not sure what guns you have been firing but the recoil between them is anything but "significant".
And there are many published reports of kinetic energy between those two rounds or "joules". Each report will vary but I would not believe that its as much as 2/3's.
here's one.
The thing to remember is that 7.62x39mm operates at the similar cartridge pressure while having double the bullet weight and case volume.Remington NATO .223/5.56mm 3.6 g 1,006 m/sec 3,301 fps 1,822 joules
Soviet AK-47, 7.62mm 8.0 g 715 m/sec 2,346 fps 2,045 joules
You can't compare rifle cartridges to handguns, apples and oranges. Different BBL, platform, weight etc etc.
Hint: carbine has much less V(0) than long rifle. Also in carbine barrel powder hasn't got enough time to fully burn resulting higher pressure at the muzzle. Maximum pressure of a cartridge is a different animal, and doesn't affect recoil that much at all (even though you claim otherwise).
High gas pressure at the muzzle and low initial recoil impulse allows AR-15 carnines to be modified as virtually recoilles rifles with the help of muzzle brake/compensator.
I wasn't comparing rifle cartridges to pistol cartridges, was I? But really it wouldn't matter if I were: physics remain the same. If you really want to learn about recoil effects, there is plenty to read online and in libraries.The thing to remember is that 7.62x39mm operates at the similar cartridge pressure while having double the bullet weight and case volume.
You can't compare rifle cartridges to handguns, apples and oranges. Different BBL, platform, weight etc etc.
-jippo
Well, I agree with Sergey on something for once
While difference between 7.62x39 vs .223 maybe "significant" to the first time "OMFG! I shoot gun" shooters, it's hardly noticeble/easily adjustable by anybody with repeated range experience. I'd leave "significant" to the comparissons between full size rifle and assault rifle cartridges, not when comparing the two intermidiate ones. It's certainly nice to have almost no recoil when dealing with intermidiate 5.56/5.45 chambered weapons, but not as nice when you have no assurence those super sonic bullets are all of a sudden incapable with dealing with about a half of situations. Purely for fun shooting activities, I'd pick an AKM as a shooter since at least it feels like shooting.
There is a good reason why Russian Special forces request/use exlussively the 7.62x39mm chambered weapons.
And finally, are we talking about the Cartridges in the pure form, or the cartridges fired out of particular weapons? 7.62 out of the AKM generates a fraction of the recoil of the SKS. AR-15 generates very little recoil but there are plenty of weapons with a high kick in .223
I shoot +10k rounds per year, and have a quite long experience with guns of all types up to 125mm cannon.I have also studied ballistics and weapons a bit on my own. You may verify what I said by simply reading about internal ballistics and down to earth weapons physics.
-jippo
I'd worry about gas pressure at the muzzle if I were to BBQ someone with a muzzle blast... I'd more worry about the velocity of the projectile and its weight, how it retains its velocity in counteracting force or penetrating insignificant barriers while maintaining its stability.
AR-15 system also blows much of the gasses back into the rifle... Comparing AR-15 and AK-74, I don't see any difference in the actual recoil... If the AR-15 is chambered for anything but the Super Long .22 - the recoiless rifle comment is pure nonsense.
It's not worth a discussion when you spend more time on explaining why you right, then actually having a discussion.I shoot +10k rounds per year, and have a quite long experience with guns of all types up to 125mm cannon.
-jippo
We are also in different time zones - Good night
SKS is considered as a carbine while it has 4" longer barrel then AK 47.Hint: carbine has much less V(0) than long rifle. Also in carbine barrel powder hasn't got enough time to fully burn resulting higher pressure at the muzzle. Maximum pressure of a cartridge is a different animal, and doesn't affect recoil that much at all (even though you claim otherwise).
No, actually go back and read my example of different handgun tests, I know anyone who has experience with this will agree with me.
.357SIG operates at 40,000 pressure cup while .45ACP is at 21,000... While .45 has 230 gr and bigger casing when compared with .357SIG with 125gr 9mm bullet inside .40 S&W casing
Anyone who shot these two cartridges know which recoils MUCH more from the same/similar platform.
There goes you theory and physics out the window.
You are right, there is plenty of material available on the web, read up BETTER yet go and shoot to find out first hand.
Lets keep to what the gun does and doesn't do, not what the bullets do in the end of their journey. Too long talk then...
The gas pressure in the muzzle is significant, because that is the pressure that causes recoil. High maximum pressure doesn't in itself effect the amount of recoil at all; but direction, speed and mass of the gas escaping from the weapon does (think about rocket engines, same thing). So if the gas pressure is somehow contained in the gun, the only thing causing the recoil is the forward momentum of the bullet which must have caused equal momentum for the weapon in the opposite direction.
In a .223 carbine projectile kinetic energy is relatively small compared to other rifles around, and the gas kinetic energy on the other hand very high since the barrel is too short for the cartridge. Muzzle brake can be used to divert the kinetic energy of the gases to have effect on the opposite direction as the recoil, i.e. muzzle brake pulls the gun forward because of the high pressure, high velocity gases hitting it's surfaces. For the same reason supressors reduce the recoil in almost equal fashion. Gas pressure is not contained in the weapon, but diverted to create an opposing force to the recoil.
Try a customised IPSC AR-15 to see what I mean with "virtually recoilless".
-jippo
but those race guns cost a lot of $$$
Buy e.g. a JP tank comp for your normal 16 inch barrel AR. Not that expensive and you will see the difference.
-jippo
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