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Thread: Rhodesian Bush War Phtotographs

  1. #1771
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    Default Films on Rhodesia.

    Quote Originally Posted by SilentType View Post
    This is a large thread now at 136 pages so forgive me if this has already been covered, but will there ever be a movie or serious documentary about The Rhodesian Bush wars or are there currently any that I could watch that would provide an accurate account?

    There is old genuine film about - try Masasa or one of the Rhodesian websites.
    As I am a documentary film maker : Yes there will be one or several if I last long enough. The problem is that under the current regime in Zimbabwe ALL the locations in zimbabwe are out of "bounds". so filming would be confined to Moz and Zambia etc. I cant risk having Mugabe confiscate 60 or 70 thousand dollars of computer and camera equipment.
    Hence my interest in this site and others. I wont make a film that A) is not totally genuine ( filmed in SA etc). B) Portray disresepect to those who died and served. (Both sides). Whether we liked it or not I will portray history as accurately as possible. So I wont slant my films to how glorious white supremist armies are (if you get my drift?). If you have seen dead people "floppies" or seen a dead mate you will understand my sentiments.

  2. #1772

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    Quote Originally Posted by laki View Post
    Cnd Riflemen,
    You are right. Our FN FALOs (your C2 as I understand?) did not have a belt feed system but I was under the (wrong apparanently) impression that it could take a belt. My only 'reference' to this unfortunately is a photo of a dead Argentine NCO in the Falklands after an attack of Royal Marines of 42Cdo on his position where he had ammunition belts seemingly wrapped around his FN. Thanks for te correction.

    G3:
    Like GGP said my portuguese comando friend never found the G3 wanting either and he wasn't really wrapped up about the main 'assault rifle' that the unit was carrying but he was very wrapped up on aggressiveness, discipline and spirit!

    Having said that our infantry in Greece still use the G3 and the comments are as negative as can be found in here...



    I have the (simplistic maybe) impression that the west NEVER actually fought a successful COIN war against communist guerillas between 45-90 but then again I may be very wrong!

    One 'shining' exception: the very first COIN war against communist forces in the cold war: the Greek civil war of 1946-49 where the communist guerillas were thoroughly beaten in the battlefield. If you want to nitpick you could argue that it was not a true COIN as the guerillas reverted to formal army structures and fought a nearly conventional war in which it didn't stand a chance. It is claimed that this was they reason they lost: they should have stuck to unconventional action. However, that war can be hardly thought of as conventional with all battles taking place at 1500-2500m high up inthe mountains routing out guerillas fighting very well entrenched/in caves etc (my old unit was one of five battalions which were at the very tip of the spearhead of COIN forces, beyond the infantry who were having serious problems fighting the insurgents)
    If I may, the British fought a very successful COIN against Malay communist guerrillas in the early to mid-1950s because they paid attention to the fundamentals. They isolated the local population in keeps, but instead of neglecting their basic needs like the Rhodesians later did, they allowed the civilians to farm very close to the keeps themselves and made these things self-supporting, with stores and clinics inside the walls, so there was no need for the people to escape and return to their former villages. In this way, the guerrillas were now denied a resupply network, and if there was one tactic that led to their defeat, this was it. You would have thought that Rhodesia would have incorporated this simple ploy to strengthen its hand in the rural areas, since there were so many former British armed forces who later went to on to join the Rhodesian Security Forces, but as smart as they were in so many ways, this was not to be and they did not learn this vital lesson.

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    Default Origins of the FN & G3

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith_H View Post
    Hi,

    I can't remember the books where I have come across this, but the SADF Recces got hold of a batch of Beretta assault rifles at the end of the 1970s.

    I recall reading an account of a former Rhodie SF operative who was enrolled in the Recces. At first there was a sense of elation about serving in a unit where the logistics were better, even to the point of getting issued a brand new Beretta rifle. The operative felt used later on in his career. He felt that the Recce units that were made up of ex-Rhodies had been primarily done in order to recruit es-Rhodie SF troops and to therefore deprive the new regime of its former Rhodesian special forces community.

    (I recall a former Recce from Rhodesia was allegedly poisoned, as he was unhappy with some practices he'd seen and wanted out, but I guess that's a SADF topic rather than a topic for this thread).

    Whether this is a pic of an ex-Rhodie in the Recces, or a Walt; your guess is as good as mine.

    With regard to the use of heavy barrel FNs, there are a few pics already posted of Grey's Scouts using them. The pics would suggest they are Israeli FNs as opposed to the Canadian/Australian derivative. The introduction of the Galil to the IDF's armouries must have freed up a surplus of FNs. It is my understanding that the SADF parabats got access to some former Israeli FNs during the 1970s
    When the FN FAL derivative was adopted by the Federal Army of Rhodesia & Nyasaland, (Pre UDI and sanctions) were the original weapons purchased from Australia? I seem to recall reading this detail somewhere, perhaps some of the other participants to this thread can elaborate. This is a tough one as the early versions of the British & Australian L1A1 (AKA the SLR) and the Canadian C1A1 all looked identical with no practical difference to the end user. Certainly early photographs of Rhodesian troops show the FN with their style of wood furnishings and flash eliminator.

    Does anyone know the country of origin of the G3's used in Rhodesia. Were the made in SA?
    Last edited by Cnd Riflemen; 11-02-2009 at 12:42 AM.

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    Default Heavy Barrel 7.62

    There is a pic on the RLI website of the above being used, again I think it was Israeli made.

    http://www.therli.com/images/scan0013dotjpg

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    Quote Originally Posted by SilentType View Post
    This is a large thread now at 136 pages so forgive me if this has already been covered, but will there ever be a movie or serious documentary about The Rhodesian Bush wars or are there currently any that I could watch that would provide an accurate account?
    There is one that i know of called A Game For Vultures with Joan Collins and Richard Harris dont know when it was made

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    Quote Originally Posted by scottysonfire View Post
    MUSIC QUESTION
    Can you guys (that were there) remember what songs were on the charts during the war days?
    What was popular at the time?
    Were there particular songs that you associate with your time spent in the bush?
    A good website for rhodesian music
    http://www.thenewrbc.com/pages/music.html

  7. #1777

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cnd Riflemen View Post
    When the FN FAL derivative was adopted by the Federal Army of Rhodesia & Nyasaland, (Pre UDI and sanctions) were the original weapons purchased from Australia? I seem to recall reading this detail somewhere, perhaps some of the other participants to this thread can elaborate. This is a tough one as the early versions of the British & Australian L1A1 (AKA the SLR) and the Canadian C1A1 all looked identical with no practical difference to the end user. Certainly early photographs of Rhodesian troops show the FN with their style of wood furnishings and flash eliminator.

    Does anyone know the country of origin of the G3's used in Rhodesia. Were the made in SA?
    The majority (if not all) of the G3s used in Rhodesia were Portuguese. In fact the 'selector' designations were in that language.

  8. #1778

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    Quote Originally Posted by John Cronin View Post
    If I may, the British fought a very successful COIN against Malay communist guerrillas in the early to mid-1950s because they paid attention to the fundamentals. They isolated the local population in keeps, but instead of neglecting their basic needs like the Rhodesians later did, they allowed the civilians to farm very close to the keeps themselves and made these things self-supporting, with stores and clinics inside the walls, so there was no need for the people to escape and return to their former villages. In this way, the guerrillas were now denied a resupply network, and if there was one tactic that led to their defeat, this was it. You would have thought that Rhodesia would have incorporated this simple ploy to strengthen its hand in the rural areas, since there were so many former British armed forces who later went to on to join the Rhodesian Security Forces, but as smart as they were in so many ways, this was not to be and they did not learn this vital lesson.
    Hi John,
    The Protected Villages in Rhodesia were, in the main, pretty much self-sufficient. Yes the inhabitants had to farm their crops outside the wire , but inside were shops, clinics , schools, local Council offices etc and in one case where I served in the Kotwa area we even had an air***** (handy for the Red Cross!) , so this would give you an idea of the overall size. The locals could come and go as they pleased between 6am to 6pm and were subject to perfunctorily gate searches only. We rarely had locals abscond although we had a few stonkings so clearly there was a degree of collaboration.
    My view is that the PVs were initiated much too late in the conflict and by that time the terrs had a reasonably good presence in the area and total reliance upon the local populace was not so critical to them in any case.
    The basis was on the Malayan design and concept of course but in many ways the Rhodesian one was more superior and effective....given the circumstances...dont forget only us, the Portuguese and the the S. Africans (up to a point) were fighting the good fight. In Malaya the Brits had the support of most of the Western World.
    By late 1978 the European presence in the PVs was all but non-existent, and the control was left to Africans in the Guard Force.....by that time European farmers and standard COIN reponsibilities were considered much more important.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jeff jedi View Post
    There is old genuine film about - try Masasa or one of the Rhodesian websites.
    As I am a documentary film maker : Yes there will be one or several if I last long enough. The problem is that under the current regime in Zimbabwe ALL the locations in zimbabwe are out of "bounds". so filming would be confined to Moz and Zambia etc. I cant risk having Mugabe confiscate 60 or 70 thousand dollars of computer and camera equipment.
    Hence my interest in this site and others. I wont make a film that A) is not totally genuine ( filmed in SA etc). B) Portray disresepect to those who died and served. (Both sides). Whether we liked it or not I will portray history as accurately as possible. So I wont slant my films to how glorious white supremist armies are (if you get my drift?). If you have seen dead people "floppies" or seen a dead mate you will understand my sentiments.
    More power to you Jeff - tell it like it was (or as close as you damn well can) anything less does nothing to honour those who were impacted.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GGP View Post
    Hi John,
    The Protected Villages in Rhodesia were, in the main, pretty much self-sufficient. Yes the inhabitants had to farm their crops outside the wire , but inside were shops, clinics , schools, local Council offices etc and in one case where I served in the Kotwa area we even had an air***** (handy for the Red Cross!) , so this would give you an idea of the overall size. The locals could come and go as they pleased between 6am to 6pm and were subject to perfunctorily gate searches only. We rarely had locals abscond although we had a few stonkings so clearly there was a degree of collaboration.
    My view is that the PVs were initiated much too late in the conflict and by that time the terrs had a reasonably good presence in the area and total reliance upon the local populace was not so critical to them in any case.
    The basis was on the Malayan design and concept of course but in many ways the Rhodesian one was more superior and effective....given the circumstances...dont forget only us, the Portuguese and the the S. Africans (up to a point) were fighting the good fight. In Malaya the Brits had the support of most of the Western World.
    By late 1978 the European presence in the PVs was all but non-existent, and the control was left to Africans in the Guard Force.....by that time European farmers and standard COIN reponsibilities were considered much more important.
    I certainly agree with you comment that the PVs came in too late in the war, like closing the stable door after the horse had bolted. As you talk with some authority on the issue GGP so one assumes you were in GF. Did you ever come across a chap called John Carghill/Cowghill at Kotwa? GF was one of the many unsung but nevertheless important elements of the RhSecFor and I never envied the guys who were posted to the PVs, must have slept with one eye open all the time!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tongo View Post
    Thank you for the great information. I would like to ask what are your opinions of the various weapons used during the war by Rhodesian forces. For example, FN-FAL, G-3, RPD, AK etc.
    I thought the FN was a great weapon. True, it required more TLC than, for instance, an AK; but if you looked after it, it wouldn't let you down. For hitting power, it was way superior to an AK.
    The MAG I loved. OK it was long and heavy but the firepower was tremendous. My gun was the second fastest in the company. It ran at about 900 rpm. 3-round bursts were a real skill!
    The MAG was reliable too, although we did have one failure while out on patrol. I wasn't carrying it at the time, I hasten to add. The thing for some reason refused to fire more than one round at a time. Probably a blockage in the gas parts somewhere. Nothing we did cured the problem so we had to trup all the way back to our pickup point, exchange it and trup all the way back again. Not happy. That was the only time I remember one going wrong.
    At the very end of my National Service we were moved out of Kariba Barracks to make room for the next intake and into a camp down near the lake. We had to hand in our FNs and were issued with G3s. Nobody liked them much. They felt cheap and tinny and didn't give you any confidence. The only thing I liked about them was the ring front sight.
    Have fired a few rounds from an AK. Very easy to use and almost idiot-proof. They have probably killed more people around the world than any other firearm, so that says something .

  12. #1782

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nzhou View Post
    I certainly agree with you comment that the PVs came in too late in the war, like closing the stable door after the horse had bolted. As you talk with some authority on the issue GGP so one assumes you were in GF. Did you ever come across a chap called John Carghill/Cowghill at Kotwa? GF was one of the many unsung but nevertheless important elements of the RhSecFor and I never envied the guys who were posted to the PVs, must have slept with one eye open all the time!!
    Sorry Nzhou, I dont recall the name Carghill.
    Yes I was in GF and we did our best with the limited resources and support we had. Had to fend for ourselves most of the time. The ROH does I believe contain a disproportionate amount of GF personnel.....that could be for many reasons of course.
    Worked in Kotwa/Mudzi/Mtoko/Mrewa PVs then whipped out on infantry role in Mayo, Headlands, Mangwende, Gwanda and Kezi. (Southern Matabeleland was as I'm sure you know was not the best in terms of cover ....give me the NE any time for camouflage!)
    Felt safer 'sleeping' in the bush than in any Keep any day. We were like a magnet in the PVs and my respect went out to the Intaf guys who were sitting ducks in those posts for a long long time.
    Concept of PVs were excellent but we were a little half-hearted in the execution although I'm sure the Intaf guys must have thought them a godsend in comparison to what was there previously.

  13. #1783

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    PVs
    For an excellent composite of PVs/Intaff etc visit:

    http://www.freewebs.com/dudleywall/

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    Default G3's

    Quote Originally Posted by GGP View Post
    The majority (if not all) of the G3s used in Rhodesia were Portuguese. In fact the 'selector' designations were in that language.
    Interesting, I had heard, informally, that the G3s used in Rhodesia were German made, but this was not verified. In does make sense that they were Portuguese as, until '74, Rhodesia had a direct conduit to Portugal via Mozambique.

  15. #1785

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    [QUOTE=Cnd Riflemen;4527891]Interesting, I had heard, informally, that the G3s used in Rhodesia were German made, but this was not verified. In does make sense that they were Portuguese as, until '74, Rhodesia had a direct conduit to Portugal via Mozambique.[/QUOT

    Whilst they were made in Portugal I believe they were 'purloined' out of Mozambique. Whatever they were they were certainly not new.

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