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Thread: Rafale News

  1. #706
    Senior Member Hyde's Avatar
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    ^^ "expose their hand"

    The French have nothing to lose, they have a great fighter which builds on the experience of 50 years in fighter building, it is underestimated at times (I don't even get why) so they have something to prove, their pilots will use the fullest spectrum of the plane and will show that paper-stats are not more important than how the plane acts when in the air. I am in no way surprised that/if the Rafale "owns" every other fighter in the air, if it didn't it would be just as good as the Mirage-2000, but it has to be better, so naturally it will have an upper hand against all planes comparable to the Mirage-2000 and from the same age as the Mirage-2000. They have something to prove and it looks like they do.

  2. #707

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rapier55 View Post
    Which encounter was that? The one where the F-18 pilot's radar was almost useless until it was too "late?"
    The latest reported Block2 vs rafale confrontation was WVR so nothing extraordinnary. Rafale and SH often practise of the french mediteranean coast. french navy has a base in southern france (Nîmes Garon) to meet SH.

    French Rafale on the Teddy" ~ The special report of Rafale M F2's performance during the JTFEX exercise, 2008.

    1. In Page 37, a photo shows a Rafale M of 12F flew with an F/A-18F from the Blacklions Squadron, the first frontline squadron of Superhornet Block II.


    2. Rafale M F2 met with F/A-18E/F in several 1 v 1 BFM and 2 v 2 AA missions during the exercise. However, both sides didn't show their real and complete fighting capability to each other ~ US pilots didn't show the true capability of JHMCS + AIM-9X to French pilots, while 12F was also shy about showing the real capabilities of RBE2 radar, Spectra EWS, and FSO optronic systems.


    3. A USN pilot's (Lt Mike Tremel, pilot of VFA-31 "Tomcatters") comments for Rafale M:

    "A highly maneuverable fighter with an incredible capacity to point its nose in every direction in the sky."

    "The French pilots seem to be happy to its flight performance and its modern cockpit design".

    When asked if he would like to swap his Super hornet to a Rafale --> "No, I love my Super Bug way too much...."


    4. A French pilot's (pilot of 12F) comments for F/A-18E:

    "A great bombing aircraft, but not a fighter for dogfighting."

    "Its acceleration capability in the high angle of incidence is not good."

    "Rafale is definitely the more nimble one."

    "However, F/A-18E has already equipped the JHMCS + AIM-9X, a combination of decisive edge in close-range encounters ~ Although the tactics to counter it have existed now."

  3. #708
    Senior Member oldsoak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MareCar View Post
    ^^ "expose their hand"

    The French have nothing to lose, they have a great fighter which builds on the experience of 50 years in fighter building, it is underestimated at times (I don't even get why) so they have something to prove, their pilots will use the fullest spectrum of the plane and will show that paper-stats are not more important than how the plane acts when in the air. I am in no way surprised that/if the Rafale "owns" every other fighter in the air, if it didn't it would be just as good as the Mirage-2000, but it has to be better, so naturally it will have an upper hand against all planes comparable to the Mirage-2000 and from the same age as the Mirage-2000. They have something to prove and it looks like they do.
    - because ECM is exceptionally sensitive ? It is one of the things whose real capability you just dont expose on training missions with foreign aircraft ( apart from a training mode ) - and certainly not to commercial rivals !

  4. #709
    Senior Member Rapier55's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by arthuro View Post
    The latest reported Block2 vs rafale confrontation was WVR so nothing extraordinnary. Rafale and SH often practise of the french mediteranean coast. french navy has a base in southern france (Nîmes Garon) to meet SH.
    Thanks for the clarification. I was going to be quite shocked, not at the capabilities of the Rafale but how completely crippled a Block II SH can become in the BVR realm.

  5. #710
    Senior Member Hyde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oldsoak View Post
    - because ECM is exceptionally sensitive ? It is one of the things whose real capability you just dont expose on training missions with foreign aircraft ( apart from a training mode ) - and certainly not to commercial rivals !
    Ah, that's what you mean. Can't they turn it off, or is it an integral part of the exercise?

  6. #711
    Senior Member oldsoak's Avatar
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    AFAIK theres various modes you can deploy - its not an all or nothing. You have to also bear in mind the potential effect of jamming on civil radar or exercise control radar, so you have to tailor it to the exercise.
    Radars can also use various techniques to reduce the effect of jamming or deception - so they dont get used to their full potential in friendly engagements in case data falls into unfriendly hands.

  7. #712

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    Another rafale vs SH confrontation report from dassault fox 3 magazine.

    No real detail but it seems that they have done some BVR:

    The whole spectrum of combat missions was simulated, from self-escort strike to close air support, and from basic fighter manoeuvring to air-defence. For strike or close air support scenarios, we simulated attacks with loads of six AASM stand-off, fire-and-forget modular air-to-surface armaments, or six GBU-12 laserguided bombs, plus a full-up air-to-air load of Mica radar and infrared-guided missiles. On most missions, we had US Navy adversary units in Oceana or US Air Force fighters trying to oppose our ingress. That was very realistic training in a different environment for us.”

  8. #713
    Senior Member Olybrius's Avatar
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    Brazil, UAE , Kuwait ..not Switzerland ?

    France is 'optimistic' about sale of Rafale to Brazil
    PARIS, 16 dez 2009 (AFP) -PARIS, Dec. 16, 2009 (AFP)

    French Defense Minister, Herve Morin, said he was "very optimistic" about the possibility to export the Rafale fighter jets, Dassault Aviation, a number of countries, including Brazil, United Arab Emirates and Kuwait.

    In an interview with French newspaper La Tribune, Morin said: "As you know, we have advanced discussions with United Arab Emirates, Brazil and also with other countries", and "I'm optimistic."

    "In relation to Brazil, we work in a great confidence, because our relations are part of a larger strategic partnership for our countries."

    "A contract of this scope does not end in a few weeks," said Morin, noting that it is "normal further discussions" with the Brazilian government.
    Dassault competes with Boeing (F-18/Super Horn) and Sweden's Saab (Gripen) for the sale of 36 fighter jets to the FAB, in a deal valued at $ 7 billion.
    .Although President Luiz Inácio Lula da Silva expressed his preference for the Rafale, Brazil has not yet decided on the purchase of fighter planes.

    http://economia.uol.com.br/ultimas-n...ao-brasil.jhtm

  9. #714
    Senior Member xav's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by arthuro View Post
    french navy has a base in southern france (Nîmes Garon) to meet SH.
    Hyeres navy air base is even closer to Toulon and the mediteran sea

  10. #715
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    Quote Originally Posted by Olybrius View Post
    Brazil, UAE , Kuwait ..not Switzerland ?




    http://economia.uol.com.br/ultimas-n...ao-brasil.jhtm
    The current tax-evasion and spying scandal will probably put a huge brake on this one :


    http://www.france24.com/en/20091216-...d-evasion-hsbc

  11. #716
    Senior Member Chimera's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nansouty View Post
    The current tax-evasion and spying scandal will probably put a huge brake on this one :
    3 billion € in tax evasion.

    I will not say how many Rafales we could have bought for ourselves with this amount of money.

  12. #717
    Senior Member Olybrius's Avatar
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    2009: the year of almost
    [...]
    It was also the year of almost for the Dassault Rafale. Almost there, not quite yet. That Rafale will eventually win export contracts is near certainty; the extent and size of those contracts remain in question at this point. Nothing is certain, and Rafale might still experience unpleasant surprises although Brazil has expressed its intentions to procure the aircraft for its FX-2 program.

    While Rafale is the logical choice for Brazil on many levels, is also a risk for the Brazilian Air Force. Can the French deliver on the promises? Can Rafale become the force multiplier it has demonstrated significant potential for? We believe so, as there are many uncertainties about the two other competitors (Gripen and F-18E) in competition for this program. Surprisingly, Rafale might appear to be the lower risk proposition for Brazil at this juncture.

    The Boeing F-18E is a very capable and mature weapon system, superior to its competitors in many critical areas, but there are too many issues pertaining to export control and technology transfers. These issues are paramount, and risk compromising the aircraft’s chances unless they can be addressed to the satisfaction of the Brazilian Air Force.

    As far as Saab is concerned, Gripen is a strong, capable and, highly affordable system but Gripen NG remains a paper airplane that has significant ways to go. The fact that Gripen NG requires development may also prove valuable to Brazil, as it would allow Brazilian industry to participate closely in the development and manufacturing of this aircraft, perhaps…
    [...]
    http://g2globalsolutions.com/review/?p=3177

  13. #718
    Senior Member xav's Avatar
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    Rafale : Dassault aurait réduit de 40 % le prix de vente au Brésil
    LE MONDE | 05.01.10 | 18h18

    Le constructeur aéronautique Dassault, en compétition pour fournir 36 avions de chasse Rafale au Brésil, a dû diminuer son prix de vente de 40 % pour augmenter ses chances, affirme, vendredi 6 novembre, Libération. Dassault se serait engagé à aligner le prix sur celui payé par l'armée française, soit 50 millions d'euros l'unité, contre une offre originelle de 96 millions.

    http://www.lemonde.fr/economie/artic...3685_3234.html
    Dassault reduced Rafale cost by 40% for Brazil, with unit price at 50 million € compared to original 96m

  14. #719
    Senior Member Herman the II's Avatar
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    Who will burden the difference? Hardly imaginable that Dassault will do that on its own.

  15. #720
    Senior Member oldsoak's Avatar
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    French government - it is after all vital to French aerospace. At the very least, the French have grasped the principle that to be a top player costs. In that, I salute them.

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