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Thread: Rafale News

  1. #721

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    Quote Originally Posted by Xav View Post
    Dassault reduced Rafale cost by 40% for Brazil, with unit price at 50 million € compared to original 96m
    The question is how many fighters will Brazil finally buy, because FAB has a need of nearly 100 new fighters. I doubt it will really end up with only 36 and more fighters of course will reduce the costs.
    This price for only 36 is simply not realistic, what would the 60 Rafales for UAE cost then, not to forget 126 for India?

  2. #722
    Senior Member oldsoak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xav View Post
    The other bad thing in this is that, if Brazil ends up buying Rafale @ 50m, good luck selling to the EAU or Swiss @ 96m...
    Depends on which offers the most likely chance of success. Do the French have a saying as we do here "To looose a sprat to catch a mackerel" - ie a small loss for a bigger gain.

  3. #723

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    Quote Originally Posted by Xav View Post
    Dassault reduced Rafale cost by 40% for Brazil, with unit price at 50 million € compared to original 96m
    I'd just like to point out that € 96M - 40% = € 57.6M. I don't know about you, but for me € 7.6M is a tidy amount.

    If "Le Monde" is as accurate about this information as it is about its maths...

  4. #724
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xav View Post
    Dassault reduced Rafale cost by 40% for Brazil, with unit price at 50 million € compared to original 96m
    When you're desperate for a sale you do what you have to do. Dassault is pretty much at the sunset of it's fighter business.

  5. #725

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    Quote Originally Posted by Panchito12 View Post
    When you're desperate for a sale you do what you have to do.
    True enough, and assuming they really lowered the fly-away cost, they probably discreetly jacked-up the MSRP for the spare parts by 50%!

  6. #726
    Senior Member Olybrius's Avatar
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    Desperate Dassault ? Not really
    Falcon sales represent > 60% of Dassault Aviation turnover and D.A. is world leader on the top end business jet market.
    More important: Dassault Systemes , now almost as big as Dassault Aviation, is world leader in 3D/PLM (Product Lifecycle management ) software market and is still growing fast.
    2009 was a bad year for everyone in the aerospace industry but Dassault is a very rich firm : in 2009, despite the crisis, D.A. bought cash 26% of the biggest european defense electronic group (Thales) and D.S bought cash a part of IBM Corp.’s sales and customer support unit.

    http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?i=3871176
    http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?p...d=aal7lVvThpj0

    And after these acquisitions, Dassault consolidated available cash still totaled EUR 1.69 billion.

    Dassault is not desperate , Dassault never lost money on any contracts and Dassault won't lost money in Brazil whatever the final choice...
    Future Rafales export sales are very important for the future of France's (and Europe) aerospace and defence industry ... but Dassault is not desperate .

  7. #727
    Senior Member Olybrius's Avatar
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    Fab clarification about FX-2
    http://translate.google.fr/translate...tm&sl=pt&tl=en

    Brazil / Rafale: the decision is "political"
    AFP
    06/01/2010 | Updated: 16:01 | Add to my selection
    "The final decision is always political," said in Geneva today the Brazilian Minister of Foreign Affairs Celso Amorim, questioned about the proposed purchase by Brazil of French fighter Rafale, which would be decried by the Brazilian military .

    "Obviously, we will consider, take into account what is in the technical report, but "it is the Minister of Defense, the President (Luiz Inácio Lula da Silva) to decide," Did He told a meeting with journalists. "This is not a purely military decision."
    http://www.lefigaro.fr/flash-actu/20...-politique.php

    The fight between the Fab and the Brazilian gov intensifies , my opinion is the FAB will lose ... not because of a final "costly" Rafale choice but because they will probably have to wait their new fighters some more years ...

  8. #728
    Senior Member Olybrius's Avatar
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    France still confident on Brazilian jet order (AP)

    French defense minister calls Rafale a 'Ferrari' compared to rival for Brazilian contract

    PARIS (AP) -- France downplayed Wednesday a report that Brazil's air force favors a Swedish competitor to French defense contractor Dassault's Rafale fighter jet for an order worth up to $4.4 billion.

    Defense minister Herve Morin called the report in Brazilian newspaper Folha de Sao Paulo "rumors" and vaunted the superiority of the French jet.

    "This is an extremely tough competition and in this type of competition everyone spreads a lot of rumors," Morin said in an interview on French radio station RMC.

    Sweden's Gripen NG, made by Saab AB, and U.S.-based Boeing Co.'s F-18 Super Hornet are also in the running for the contract. The newspaper said the Rafale finished last in a technical evaluation carried out by Brazil's air force.

    The air force's main objection to the Rafale is its price, which is estimated at double the cost of a Gripen fighter, Tuesday's report in Folha de Sao Paulo said. The Gripen was preferred because of the greater opportunity provided by the Swedish group to transfer technology to Brazilian engineers, the report said.

    Brazil's air force would not confirm the report, saying only that it has completed its technical evaluation of the three jets but has not yet given the report to the Defense Ministry.

    Morin defended the Rafale, saying it was like "a Ferrari compared to the Gripen, which is a Volvo."

    A final decision on the order for 36 fighters had been expected last year, with the first deliveries set for 2014. So far Brazil has not announced its choice.

    France has struggled to find a foreign buyer for the Rafale. Paris has been trying for years to market the planes -- from Saudi Arabia to India and elsewhere -- but has not yet clinched an export deal.

    Brazil's Defense Minister Nelson Jobim has expressed a preference for France's Rafale.

    Brazil already has agreed to buy five French Scorpene submarines, one of them with nuclear propulsion, and 50 Cougar helicopters for about $12 billion. All would be assembled in Brazil.
    http://finance.yahoo.com/news/France....html?x=0&.v=1

  9. #729
    Member Bandeirante's Avatar
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    That's a tough game !

  10. #730

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    Quote Originally Posted by Olybrius View Post
    The fight between the Fab and the Brazilian gov intensifies , my opinion is the FAB will lose ... not because of a final "costly" Rafale choice but because they will probably have to wait their new fighters some more years ...
    Except that the arm wrestling can go on for a few month until Lula leaves his office and lets his successor deal with the hot potato.

    Then, it's back to the beginning...

  11. #731
    Senior Member Stonewall71's Avatar
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    It seems that if Serra from PSDB wins the next elections, and the FX-2 is not yet chosen the clock will start for the "FX-3"

  12. #732
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    Brazil's Lula Seen Choosing Dassault For Jet Fighter Pact: Report

    SAO PAULO (Dow Jones)--Brazilian President Luiz Inacio Lula da Silva will likely ignore his air force's preference for a jet fighter made by Sweden's Saab AB (SAAB-B.SK) and chose a plane built by France's Dassault Aviation SA (AM.FR) to lead its fleet, the local O Estado de S. Paulo newspaper reported Wednesday.

    Brazil's air force has completed a technical report, which showed a clear preference for Saab's Gripen NG over Dassault's Rafale and Boeing Co's (BA) F-18 for the $7 billion contract for 36 high-tech fighters, according to a report in the Folha de S. Paulo newspaper Tuesday.

    However, back in September, Lula announced a clear preference for the French offer and will likely stick with this choice, the Estado reported, citing unnamed sources.

    The president sees clear strategic and political advantages to the French bid, it added.

    A presidential spokeswoman had no comment to make on the report. Meanwhile, the air force confirmed that it has completed its technical evaluation of the bids but has not yet presented its findings to the Defence Ministry.

    http://online.wsj.com/article/BT-CO-...atestheadlines

  13. #733
    Senior Member Olybrius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by raoul volfoni View Post
    Except that the arm wrestling can go on for a few month until Lula leaves his office and lets his successor deal with the hot potato.

    Then, it's back to the beginning...
    yes i agree

  14. #734
    Senior Member Olybrius's Avatar
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    more here :

    Lula tends to ignore the Air Force report

    [...]
    The leak of the report of the Air Force - with even partial evaluation of tenders for the project FX-2 fleet renewal FAB - angered Lula and provoked unease in government. President's aides said the document has been modified and does not rank the best proposals, but only evaluates technical items such as technology transfer and commercial development and logistic.[...]
    http://zerohora.clicrbs.com.br/zeroh...D=a2768863.xml
    http://translate.google.fr/translate...3Da2768863.xml

  15. #735
    Senior Member xav's Avatar
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    "a Ferrari compared to the Gripen, which is a Volvo."
    Should have said a Renault compared to a Saab

    edit: Nice 5000th post haha
    Last edited by xav; 01-06-2010 at 03:05 PM. Reason: 5000!

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