Rafale News

[Bitogno]

The choice is of course political, and it may well be Rafale which (by the way) is a very good fighter, although it is terribly expensive. The evaluation should hopefully be done in a professional manner, although one never knows -- I guess that, if the evaluation produces a result that you like, you consider it a good and professional evaluation; if it does not, it's probably because it is political, etc...


It is not clear to me what you are trying to say; Are you saying that the 30,000 page report is a political statement?

Also, what do you know about the requirements of the FAB? It seems you claim you know those requirements better than the evaluation committee since you seem to indicate that they need a Ferrari not a Volvo...

I find that rather funny.

Look at statistics, look at how many single-engine F-16 and Mirage have been sold in the world, compare that to the number of twin-engine fighters that have been sold in the world. Without knowing the details of the Brazilian requirements, but just using historical data and simple statistics, the probability that a single-engine fighter is preferred in any competition is higher than a twin-engine. And as said before, the Rafale is also an expensive twin-engine (more so than the SH).

Would you care to give some sources of the FAB requirements since you seem to know them pretty well?

Well few things :
_ One of the nighbours of Brazil is Venezuela with Sukhois so when on the track one has a Lamborghini, to compete I prefer a Ferrari ( that exists ) than a Volvo ( that doesn't ).
_ When flying in a country that as the size of Brazil first I prefer to have a plane that can fly 1850 km than 800 km. I prefer to have two engines than one because if I have a problem, landing in the rainforest or even ejecting will reduce a lot my life expectancy. You quoted F-16 and M-2000. They are all sold to small countries or coutries with a lot of airports everywhere ( unlike Brazil with the rainforest part ).
_ About the existing number of planes :
_ Monoreactor :
F-16 : 4500+
M2000 : 601
Gripen : 240
Others :?
_ Bireactor :
F-15 : 1300
F-18 : 1500+
F-22 : 187
Sukhois : 680 ( SU-27 )
Mig : 1600+ ( Mig-29 )
Rafale : 75
Eurofighter :200 in Nov 2009
so it is almost the same ( and I could add : F-14/Mig-31/J-11 on one side and J-10 on the other side ).

And to finish : when you have an aircraft carrier it is better to have planes than can land on it.

[Breerman]

_ When flying in a country that as the size of Brazil first I prefer to have a plane that can fly 1850 km than 800 km.

Gripen NG has quite a bit longer range than Rafale (and the Rafale numbers are with conformal fuel tanks).

And to finish : when you have an aircraft carrier it is better to have planes than can land on it.

But on the other hand Brazil isn't looking to order the Rafale M... For Gripen it's a matter of adaptation according to Saab, but it can land on carriers even without a hook (in simulation).

Well few things :
_ One of the nighbours of Brazil is Venezuela with Sukhois so when on the track one has a Lamborghini, to compete I prefer a Ferrari ( that exists ) than a Volvo ( that doesn't ).

It's of course a matter of personal preference but I would rather have a Saab or Volvo than a Renault or Citroen. Food and wine metafores are probably a better idea. Camembert-Rafale vs. Surströmming-Gripen?

Looking forward to see the Renaurri over here from some exercises. Technically and tactically we are usually a couple notches over NATO countries in the air, on the ground, at and under the sea.

Vive la chauvinism!

[Loke2]

here it's RAFALE NEWS blah blah blah

Indeed, I will STFU now (Funnily, I like Rafale quite a lot however some of the (other) Rafale fanboys are sometimes much too much.. )

[Bitogno]

Gripen NG has quite a bit longer range than Rafale (and the Rafale numbers are with conformal fuel tanks).


But on the other hand Brazil isn't looking to order the Rafale M... For Gripen it's a matter of adaptation according to Saab, but it can land on carriers even without a hook (in simulation).


It's of course a matter of personal preference but I would rather have a Saab or Volvo than a Renault or Citroen. Food and wine metafores are probably a better idea. Camembert-Rafale vs. Surströmming-Gripen?

Looking forward to see the Renaurri over here from some exercises. Technically and tactically we are usually a couple notches over NATO countries in the air, on the ground, at and under the sea.

Vive la chauvinism!

Let's continue Chauvinism .
When I am on the track I have someone ( Venezuela ) with Lamborgini ( Russian ones ) I would prefer to have a Renault which has been Formula one world champion in 2005/2006

[Stonewall71]

The cheap is expensive sometimes, Amorim said on purchase of fighter
Janeiro from 07 from 2010 • 12:36 pm • updated at 12:41 pm

0 September 2009
Photo: Divulgação


Lucia Müzell
Direct from Paris

The foreign minister, Celso Amorim, returned to comment on the leak of the Brazilian Air Force (FAB) on the purchase of new fighters for the Defense. "The chairman, who is leading the country politically, make the decision, taking into account all data, technical and other. Sometimes the experts give an impression that goes one way and often is Too Expensive," said Amorim, who one day after the release of the report went to Paris, where he participated on Wednesday in a symposium of the economy that also was attended by French President Nicolas Sarkozy.

The minister hinted that the Brazilian Government's decision should not be based solely on price as an effective option for the Brazilian Air Force fighters Swedish Gripen NG, Saab, instead of the French Rafale from Dassault.

"It is clear that the technical data are also important, but other considerations are also important. (...) I am not diminishing the value of work done, nor am I saying he is the only factor," said the minister, saying the decision-making process is still ongoing and the word shall be final only to President Lula.

Sarkozy opened the event this morning and included Brazil several times in his speech. Before Amorim, and on two occasions, recalled the admiration and friendship he has with President Lula and Brazil.

"Who can think that today we can solve the world problems without Brazil?" He said, to defend the inclusion of major emerging countries in the Security Council and the enlargement of the G8 - the Group of Eight richest countries in the world - for the G20 - which includes emerging markets, like Brazil.

The strategic partnership between Brazil and France is the main reason why President Lula and Defense Minister Nelson Jobim, prefer the Rafale other competitors by more than the price of French aircraft is almost double than the Gripen would cost as the Swedish company.

Amorim, however, denied that there were interests behind the praise of Sarkozy. For him, making a connection between the words of French President and the possible failure of the sale of the Rafale would "think small". He has been one of the speakers at the first roundtable event and, in French, called for greater integration of emerging global governance.

Leaving the symposium, he met with the Diplomatic Adviser of the Elysee Palace, Jean-David Levitte. Upon leaving the meeting, the Brazilian minister said the conversation was "great."

Amorim said that the issue of sale of the fighters was discussed, but in a "quiet", without concern among the French. This, according to Amorim, was not the main theme of the meeting.

"They were interested, and I would be surprised if they were not. The word that he (Levitt) used was always calm," said Amorim. "I said, 'Look, I am no negotiating this."
google translation from
http://noticias.terra.com.br/brasil/...-EI306,00.html

[Olybrius]

More news:

07 from January 2010

Planalto stresses the preference for the French

Despite appearing to take the Air Force, the final decision should rest with the president Lula

Despite a partial report of the Air Force Command to evaluate the fighter of the Swedish company Saab as the best design, the Brazilian government tends to close the deal with France. [...]

http://zerohora.clicrbs.com.br/zeroh...1&section=1007
http://translate.google.fr/translate...07&sl=pt&tl=en

07/01/2010 07:42
Lula presses and FAB have given up commenting on fighters

[....] President Luiz Inácio Lula da Silva was angry to learn that the first report was leaked to the newspaper Folha de S. Paulo and considered the incident an attempt by the Air Force to embarrass him. Lula, who has publicly expressed his preference for the French Rafale fighter, do not want to take into account the opinion of the FAB to announce their decision. According to the president, the purchase of 36 aircraft is "political and strategic" to consolidate the partnership between Brazil and France.

According to the edition of Thursday's newspaper O Estado de S. Paulo , the modified text should be delivered to Jobim next week, without any recommendation. In the original version, the Rafale was third and finally, because it is considered more expensive and operating costs higher.

An aide to Lula told the newspaper that after presenting the report, it was revised, but that neither the president nor Jobim forced the FAB to modify its text.[...]

http://veja.abril.com.br/noticia/bra...a-523744.shtml
http://translate.google.fr/translate...ml&sl=pt&tl=en

07 of January of 2010 • 14h00
Sarkozy advisor: France has interest in the sale of fighters

Waiting the decision of the Brazilian government on the purchase of fighters for the renewal of the national aerial fleet, the diplomacy advisor of the French government, Jean David Levitte, affirmed in this thursday that the Frenchmen have interest in the business.
Levitte made the affirmation in colloquy with the minister of Foreign affairs, Celso Amorim. The manifestation of the assessor of president Nicolas Sarkozy occurs at a moment where there are divergences in Brazil on the subject [...]

Next week, Lula should define the question. Sarkozy praised Brazil and defended its participation in the Security council of the United Nations and also in international economic negotiations. In the speech, the Frenchman cited Brazil seven times

http://noticias.terra.com.br/brasil/...+de+cacas.html
http://fr.babelfish.yahoo.com/transl...TrUrl=Traduire

(yahoo translation is sometimes much better than google)

[Mat_fr]

Gripen NG has quite a bit longer range than Rafale (and the Rafale numbers are with conformal fuel tanks).


But on the other hand Brazil isn't looking to order the Rafale M... For Gripen it's a matter of adaptation according to Saab, but it can land on carriers even without a hook (in simulation).

1- i would be very surprised if, with the same heavy configuration, usually fitted on Rafale (such as : 2 or 3x 2000L fuel tanks, 6xGBU12 bombs, 4 or 6 mica's missiles), gripen has the same range.
conformal fuel tanks on rafale ? again, strange thing IMO.
feel free to give the sources, i could change my mind.

2- i didn't know that navalizing a fighter is so easy.. no structural modifications ? ..

mat.

[Mordoror]

well sorry to mess in but we are talking about a paper plane (as good as it may be once finished) and a plane that is operational, combat proven (at least for mud delivery)

the specs of the gripen NG on paper are very good
however, the very moment a corporate will deliver a product that follows the paper specs, i will eat my hat
(just look the most recent example : F35 price increased : check
weight increased : check
expected range decreased : check
time delivery increased : check)

when the gripen NG (if it happens someday) comes in operational units, we could discuss its capabilities
until then ...you can as well compare with a X-Wing fighter for what matters

[Martel]

Gripen NG has quite a bit longer range than Rafale (and the Rafale numbers are with conformal fuel tanks).

"would have", Gripen NG doesn't exist yet.

But on the other hand Brazil isn't looking to order the Rafale M... For Gripen it's a matter of adaptation according to Saab, but it can land on carriers even without a hook (in simulation).

Yeah it's so easy to adapt plane to be navalised, we see that every day.

[Maskirovka]

BTW ; It´s really funny to see the outrage of the Rafale-fanboys after the recent days news became public. They seem even more desperate then the french foreign minister. It´s quite amusing, and I thought french people were cool laid back kind of guys with a glass of wine in the hand just saying "C'est la vie"... Soon their will be a ban on any Swedish/French related topics.

(Don´t worry guys, Rafale will win this tender. Politics rules and politics equals corruption (in this part of the world). The French are truly the masters in being best friends with corrupt leaders/politicians. SAAB are just some frigging newcomer, naive street gang from the posh side of the town who thinks they can get some new hoes with the help of reason?! LOL. )

[Olybrius]

BTW ; It´s really funny to see the outrage of the Rafale-fanboys after the recent days news became public. They seem even more desperate then the french foreign minister. It´s quite amusing, and I thought french people were cool laid back kind of guys with a glass of wine in the hand just saying "C'est la vie"... Soon their will be a ban on any Swedish/French related topics.

(Don´t worry guys, Rafale will win this tender. Politics rules and politics equals corruption (in this part of the world). The French are truly the masters in being best friends with corrupt leaders/politicians. SAAB are just some frigging newcomer, naive street gang from the posh side of the town who thinks they can get some new hoes with the help of reason?! LOL. )

Reported for flamebaiting.
Please guys, stick on news and don't feed the trolls , i think people who read this thread are interested by news and not by that kind of childish debate.

[Mordoror]

BTW ; It´s really funny to see the outrage of the Rafale-fanboys after the recent days news became public. They seem even more desperate then the french foreign minister. It´s quite amusing, and I thought french people were cool laid back kind of guys with a glass of wine in the hand just saying "C'est la vie"... Soon their will be a ban on any Swedish/French related topics.

what desperate ??
as you say "c'est la vie" or wait and see
it is funny how gripen fanboys try to sell that a project airplane is the best light fighter around the world
Indians made the same mistake with the LCA you know
actually once it took a flight, it was quite disapointing

(Don´t worry guys, Rafale will win this tender. Politics rules and politics equals corruption (in this part of the world). The French are truly the masters in being best friends with corrupt leaders/politicians. SAAB are just some frigging newcomer, naive street gang from the posh side of the town who thinks they can get some new hoes with the help of reason?! LOL. )

already reported by Olybrius so i don't have to do it
not a clever (short) come back maskirovka

[filochard]

Funny to see fanboys trying to explain what the experts in the Brazilian evaluation committee should and should not do and say...

fanboy ? of course what else ? that's the new thing in vogue in town since Jon Lake launched it: everybody who speak of the Rafale is a fanboy.
.. apart those who bad mouth about it or repeat the usual FUD like good sheep of course.
since you seems to like the smiley, here is one:

Now you missed it so I repeat: I put doubt on the rumor not in the report itself.

It's not the military who pay, so generally the military want the best, not the cheapest. That's what make me doubt the accuracy of this rumor.

Why is this so hard to understand?

Now about the price: do you honestly believe that Saab can provide something almost as good as the Rafale for half the price ? give me a break, I know your engineer are good but the Dassault guys are no slouch either (though a little greedy I admit )

My opinion: Saab is desperate and ready to sacrify its (good) reputation on this affair.

[Maskirovka]

Reported for flamebaiting.
Please guys, stick on news and don't feed the trolls , i think people who read this thread are interested by news and not by that kind of childish debate.

Actually I was being sarcastic. But when I first read here that you guys were actually comparing which cars a Gripen and a Rafale would be I thought "-How childish is this, are they 5 years old or what? Off course its mp.net...."
Then I found out it was actually the french foreign minister that have made that kind of juvenile comparison?!!!! I that true!?

Like.. this all a lie or did he actually say something that stupid? If he did. Was he drunk or something?

Not a flamebait, just to clear out what has actually been said.

[Olybrius]

More interesting despite a bit old : i was looking for a possible swiss denial about Morin last claim "rafale is ranked first in Switzerland" and i just found this article in 24h about Lybia.

21.12.2009 21/12/2009
Libya choose Russia!

In all likelihood, Libya would soon acquire Russian fighter aircraft Sukhoi SU-type-35 and SU30, YAK-130 and helicopters KA-52 and MI-35. The transaction amount should be around 700 million euros (USD 1 billion).

Tripoli is engaged in advanced negotiations with Russia on the purchase of a first batch of 12 SU-35, 4 Su-30, 6 Yak-130 training as well as reconnaissance helicopters Ka-52 and d 'MI-35 attack, whose number is not known yet!

According to a Russian official, the Libyan party is considering longer-term completely renew its fleet of military aircraft.. Russia is ready to run this command and others to 100%.

No Rafale ?

Libya would buy not the French fighter Rafale, despite the efforts made by Paris! The team presenting the Rafale had yet worked hard recently, helped by the intervention of President Sarkozy. 2010 should nevertheless smiling at Dassault is expected to reap its first export order (UAE, Brazil, India and why not Switzerland!).

The Libyans choice:

The Master of Tripoli seems to move toward a Russian-born aviation as in the past (Mig-21, Mig-25, MI-8/24) apart from the delivery by Paris Mirage F1.
The Sukhoi-35
[...]

http://psk.blog.24heures.ch/archive/...sit-russe.html
24 heures is generally reliable but that's russian sources only and it was not confirmed by others medias.