Problem with CFT is that they produce drag too, and granted they carry more fuel, but potential extra range is somewhate canceled by the extra weight...Originally Posted by Sancho78
This is why Adla isn't interested by CFT (yet).
As for covered wing stations, they may be able to work for MICA missiles (with lote of R&D, time and money) but i really doubt anything else (exocet, scalp) could fit in them... except maybe a single AASM
You get me wrong, I ment coverings for the centerline and rear fuselage stations of the Rafale, not the wing stations!
If I'm not wrong the F35 and the F15 SE can carry 4 x AAMs, or 2 x AAMs + 2 x bombs internally and without the need of carrying any wingloads. My question was aimed at similar capabilities for the Rafale, if such coverings are possible for the above mentioned stations.
Four MICA without coverings (ignore the wingtip missiles please):
Four MICA with coverings:
Not sure about the 500Kg AASM, but the MBDA site says that the 250 Kg AASM has the same length as MICA, so 2 of them must fit behind each other on the centerline station too. What means with such coverings the Rafale could also carry 4 x AAMs, or 2 x x AAM + 2 bombs internally.
Of course, such a modification won't make the Rafale to a stealth fighter like the F35, but the RCS must be clearly reduced and isn't that the aim of the F15 SE modification too?
Regarding CFT, I also meant them in addition to such configs without wingload, so instead of the wing fuel tanks that normally must be carried. Would it still increase drag?
As usual , Eliane loves Sweden !
(i wonder why)
http://www1.folha.uol.com.br/folha/p...1u704939.shtml10/03/2010
The Kings enter the dance
In a rare news conference, King of Sweden, Carl Gustaf, who is visiting Brazil at the end of the month, told Brazilian reporters in Stockholm that "the Swedes will be very happy and proud" if President Luiz Inácio Lula da Silva has chosen the Gripen to renew the fleet of the Air Force. Took the opportunity to make a kind of appeal. [...]
In the interview, the Queen herself has made defense of the Gripen fighter from Sweden's Saab, which ranked first in the technical report of the Air Force, but has been passed over the area of government policy, which has done numerous demonstrations that prefer the Rafale, the French company Dassault.
"What Sweden is offering is quality, and was wondering if there were more such cooperation between the two companies [Saab and Embraer of Brazil], because the Company is remarkably good," she said. [...]
The kings arrive in Recife to 21 days but not begin an official visit on May 23 in Brasilia with a dinner with Lula and his wife, Marisa Leticia. A agenda inclui dois itens diretamente ligados à venda dos aviões supersônicos: eles vão a São José dos Campos (SP), sede da Embraer, e depois à Amazônia, com o ministro da Defesa, Nelson Jobim, peça-chave na decisão sobre os caças. The agenda includes two items directly related to the sale of supersonic aircraft: they go to Sao Jose dos Campos (SP), Embraer's headquarters, and then to the Amazon, with Defense Minister Nelson Jobim, a key decision on the fighter .[...]
Sustainability is one of the prides Swedes, who try to export to all continents of the system collects vacuum disposal, the most modern in the world, it is completely automated, without the need for trucks and street sweepers.[..]
PS - I traveled to Stockholm at the invitation of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Sweden and the country's embassy in Brasilia.
Eliane Cantanhêde is columnist for Folha, since 1997
But Eliane is pretty ...
So we decided to invite Eliane in France too
Google translation :Nicolas Sarkozy [Nicolas.Sarkozy001@gmail.com]
to elianec@uol.com.br<elianec@uol.com.br>;
Invitation / Convite
Présidence de la République, Paris le 12 mars 2010,
Chère Eliane,
J'ai entendu parler de vous comme d'une journaliste talentueuse , j'aimerais vous inviter en France afin de vous faire découvrir le charme de notre
beau pays et de ses merveilleux avions.
Signé
Nicolas Sarkozy
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Presidência da República, Paris 12 de março de 2010,
Caro Eliane,
Eu ouvi sobre você como um jornalista talentoso, convido você a vir à França para ajudar você a descobrir os encantos do nosso belo país e seus aviões maravilhosos.
Assinado
Nicolas Sarkozy
Waiting an answer nowPresidency of the Republic, Paris March 12, 2010,
Dear Eliane,
I heard about you as a talented journalist, I would like to invite you in France to help you to discover the charms of our beautiful country and its wonderful aircrafts.
Signed
Nicolas Sarkozy
ok ok i was bored and i should stop beer
Eliane Cantanhede is a disgrace for jornalism and 100% pro-SAAB
at least her mask is falling...PS - I traveled to Stockholm at the invitation of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Sweden and the country's embassy in Brasilia.
Haha what did she write that was so aweful ? I usually avoid the opinionists.
And don't worry about SAAB's marketing dep.. they can't even sell ice cream on a sunny day
In case you know a bit of French this may entertain you
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KLsk6...layer_embedded
Thanks a lot
Some infos about the Swiss competition:
The offsets are placed at the center
Growing tensions between the three possible suppliers : Dassault, EADS and Saab
[...]
The fact is Armasuisse have now informed Army chief André Blattmann and Air Force chief Markus Gygax and a few days ago the Federal Ueli Maurer on the outcome of the evaluation.
[...]
The evaluation of the three aircrafts occurred in 26 modules, from the flight performance and operating costs to the noise. One of these modules is currently at the center: the compensation or so-called offset transactions.
[...]
The Federal Council called for 100 percent compensation of the business volume of 2.2 billion francs
[...]
EADS and subcontractors could provide offsets, totaling 8 billion [...] 4 billion at Saab, 6 billion at Dassault.[...]
From (not easy to translate):
http://www.nzz.ch/nachrichten/schwei...1.5195533.html
For the record , The Neue Zurcher Zeitung (NZZ) reported last month that the Rafale was the best ranked fighter in the technical evaluation.
Last edited by Olybrius; 03-16-2010 at 12:09 PM. Reason: typo
More here (french):
http://www.avions-militaires.net/rafale/materiaux.php
Interesting despite several mistakes in the original article (mix-up between Dassault turnover and net profit ...)Rafale: a current view
[...]
This article aims to give readers an updated view of the French proposal and its aircraft, the Rafale.
To begin, here is a description of the structure that produces the Rafale. The holding GIMD [Groupe Industriel marcel dassault], controlled by the Dassault family, has 50.55% of Dassault Aviation (EADS has 46.20%, while the remaining 3.13% are private). Dassault Aviation owns 60% of the Rafale GIE (Thales and SAFRAN have each 20%) - noting that the GIMD has 26% of Thales. So it turns out that the Rafale is deeply rooted in four giants of the French aerospace industry: Dassault (cell), Thales (avionics) and SAFRAN (engines by SNECMA) and EADS (arms). This aspect is a positive point for the French proposal.
[...]
As it might be expected, the vice president of Dassault, Eric Trappier, was cautious in his statements during the visit of author to Dassault. This is fully justified, since in the final stage of a competition so fierce, any false declaration can lead to major losses.
However, the Executive confirmed that, in accordance with the french laws, the authorization for transfer of technology must precede any business proposition. In the case of Brazil, the authorization for the export of the aircraft and its systems has already been granted, and the manufacturer advises that the same was done with the transfer of the technologies involved. Brazil also market any possible exports of aircraft in Latin America, which, at least in principle, would have no practical effect in the short to medium term, for reasons relating to availability of resources by countries in the area.
The French proposal includes offsets ( "offsets") equivalent to 160% of the commercial contract, and presented 67 projects already formalized with 38 companies / entities. Some of the names involved on the Brazilian needs no introduction, and probably will take active part whatever the winning bid. For example, Embraer, Atech, CTA / ITA (development of an engine for UAV), Condor, Omnisys, etc..
About Embraer, if the Rafale is chosen, France promises to support the KC-390 program. Dassault will be involved in the development of the cell of the wing , in digital systems , in the development of flight controls and self-protection systems, while Thales Avionics will participate in the KC-390, proposing a technological level similar to the Airbus A380.
Among the sectors in which France would transfer technology to Brazil are: UAVs, stealth, composite materials, interoperability, integration into Network Centric Operations, optronics, software of radar, digital flight control, etc.. National capacity would be also developped with regard to key engines technologies, and the "expertise" on the M88 engine would be transfered so Brazil would have a complete autonomy maintenance.
As requested by the Air Force Command, the French proposal includes 28 single-seat and eight two-seaters, said Rafale International executives, the Brazilian aircraft will be exactly equal to the AdA, excepting only items that Brazil specifies otherwise.
Of course, the rate of national production of the aircraft will be negotiated according to the number of planes that are actually purchased, but for 36 copies the idea would be that the first six were all made and assembled in France (including procedures for acceptance and delivery ) with the monitoring / training 20 to 30 technicians / engineers Brazilians. The remaining 30 would have their final assembly in Brazil: the components are produced in France and brought by air to the Embraer's facility in Hawk Peixoto, where there is a final assembly and acceptance procedures and delivery. Obviously, the index of nationalization of the aircraft would increase with time, more than their exact values were not disclosed. Taking the signing of the contract as ground zero, the production of the last BR Rafale would be completed between 3 months to 7 year.
[...]
In St. Dizier is the Centre de Formation des Équipages Rafale (Training Center of Rafale crews), and some comments are of particular interest due to the fact that if the Rafale win the competition FX-2, there, will be trained the first Brazilian drivers. The Center has four "cockpits," using real components of the Rafale weapon system , including electronic warfare system SPECTRA. Each cockpit can be modified at a time (to represent the single-seat variant AdA and Naval Aviation, or the "cockpit" rear). There are also 300 PCs, connected on four networks and four servers dedicated to tactical virtual media (air-air and air-ground, etc..).
The Rafale simulation center is fully operational since December 2008. Inside, the crew can be trained in complex missions with up to four drivers acting simultaneously on the same "world" by participating in patrol missions, Combat Air attack (with AASM and SCALP), close air support (with AASM, GBU-12 and cannon). And it's a complex tactical situation, which may involve up to 50 equipment for different types (AWACS, fighter - friends and enemies), 80 anti-aircraft missiles or ships, etc. The server simulates tactical missiles: air-air and surface-air and air-air path, probability of impact, "replay", radar contact, interference, Command and Control, REVO, Link 16, IFF, building missions for close air support and "debriefing" of impacts, simulation of trains with military and civilian vehicles, etc..
[...]
From:
http://brasilnicolaci.blogspot.com/2...sao-atual.html
http://www.rafale-schweiz.ch/index.p...de-presse.htmlThe University of St. Gallen and DASSAULT AVIATION conclude 18 months of work about the optimization of industrial processes
03 03 2010 - St. Gallen
Today, the "Transfer Center for Technology Management (TECTEM)" and Dassault Aviation have held the final meeting of a joint research project of 18 months. The project objective was ,for TECTEM, to share with industry around the issue of "personalization of premium products and luxury, and to identify the best industry practices according to the specific environment Dassault Aviation.
http://www.rafale-schweiz.ch/images/...03_03_2010.pdf
http://www.dassault-aviation.com/fil...7_03_10_An.pdfDassault Aviation 2009 results
PRESS RELEASE
2009 RESULTS
• Orders:
- 60 RAFALE France
- -98 FALCON corporate
- Cancellation, by mutual agreement with NETJETS, of FALCON
deliveries scheduled beyond 2014 (65 units). These aircraft will be
reordered and delivered depending on the market evolution. NETJETS
confirms its long term partnership with DASSAULT AVIATION.
• Deliveries:
- 14 RAFALE
- Historical record for FALCON: 77
• Acquisition of a 26% stake in THALES
• Operating margin: 11.5%
• Net margin: 9.2%
• Consolidated 2009 net sales amount to EUR 3.42 billion. The export share accounts
for 74%.
• Consolidated 2009 operating income totals EUR 393 million. Operating margin is
11.5%.
• Consolidated 2009 net income totals EUR 315 million.
• The Board of Directors will submit for the approval of the General Meeting of the
shareholders on May 19, 2010, a resolution to distribute a total dividend of EUR 89
million, i.e. EUR 8.80 per share
http://bourse.challenges.fr/news.hts...=1&date=100317
http://www.businessweek.com/ap/finan.../D9EGHGUO3.htmDassault: Sarkozy helps Rafale export prospects
March 17, 2010
SAINT-CLOUD, France
French President Nicolas Sarkozy is helping the export prospects for the Rafale fighter jet, the head of plane maker Dassault said Wednesday.
CEO Charles Edelstenne declined to comment on talks with Brazil or any other potential clients. But he said that thanks to support from Sarkozy, Dassault has "an important number" of export prospects -- compared to none in 2007.
"The sale of combat planes is a political act," he said at Dassault's headquarters outside Paris. "The Elysee is doing a superb job," he said, referring to the French Elysee presidential palace.
Dassault has taken orders for 180 Rafales, all of them destined for the French armed forces. It has yet to get a single export order, and much anticipated sales to Brazil and Libya have failed to materialize.
Brazil's President Luiz Inacio Lula da Silva said earlier this month that his government has yet to decide which fighter jets his nation will buy.
The Rafale is competing for the estimated $4.4 billion order for 36 jets along with Sweden's Gripen NG from Saab AB and U.S.-based Boeing Co.'s F-18 Super Hornet.
Only the number of Dassault export orders this year will measure the real effectiveness of Sarkozy.
Additional info:
http://www.usinenouvelle.com/article...falcon.N128074Dassault Aviation has an order book of EUR12.32 billion at December 31, 2009 [...] composed of 249 Falcon and 98 Rafale. Indeed, on the total of 180 french Rafale ordered, 82 have been delivered.
For the record : Dassault Aviation has been profitable ever since its creation in 1936
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