Thread: Rafale News

  1. #1996
    Senior Member signatory's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Terra firma
    Posts
    10,712

    Default clarification

    Sir,
    I gave you an interview the 15th of november at Natal during the Cruzex V exercice.

    I have made a lapse regarding one date and I would be very pleased if you could correct it in the interview. Concerning the radar AESA, starting from the end of 2013, all Rafale deliveries will be with the AESA Radar. 2017 is a wrong date.

    Thank you for your comprehension.

    GBA Dominique De Longvilliers
    Poder Aéreo

  2. #1997

    Default

    sellf delete

  3. #1998
    Senior Member m.i.t's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    deserts of the old lands
    Posts
    2,115

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Sancho78 View Post
    I think the cost issue is the biggest problem for Rafale especially of weapons, spares and possibly future upgrades (look at Mirage 2000 upgrade costs for India, or Greek now). There is a little doubt about the quality, or capabilities of it, but it is costlier than comparable Gripen, or F16 versions, what makes it difficult on export markets.

    ?
    l didnt know this . Greek or Indian friends may share their knowledge about M2K cost issues . Actually Greece retired all Mirage F1s which are younger fighters than A-7s are still active.

    As l knew French fighters ( msytere and mirage series) were economic alternatives of US made jets for noncommunists countries.

  4. #1999
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    22

    Default

    i guess the usa are able to offer spare parts at cheaper prices than france due to mass production and to cannibalization from retired aircraft in their depot.
    i heard that taiwan was on the verge of retiring the mirage2000 even if they were more capable than F-16 due to higher maintenance cost.

    probably they are able to supply the greek A-7 with spare parts taken from mothballed aircraft.

  5. #2000
    Member Kongjun33's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    台灣 Taiwan ROC
    Posts
    634

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by IamMarco View Post
    i guess the usa are able to offer spare parts at cheaper prices than france due to mass production and to cannibalization from retired aircraft in their depot.
    i heard that taiwan was on the verge of retiring the mirage2000 even if they were more capable than F-16 due to higher maintenance cost.

    probably they are able to supply the greek A-7 with spare parts taken from mothballed aircraft.
    You re badly informed on Taiwan Mirage fleet, Pal. The maintenance cost of french warplanes was not the real problem. And the french bird remains as an excellent interceptor. Definitely the best one for the ROCAF. But France was under chinese presssure recently, and did not supply Taiwan in good condition. The problem of spare parts is now solved. And US lobbyist wing in Taiwan used this story to refresh the F-16 C/D deal. In vain! Obama administration is not willing to sell them now. Will they even sell them in 2012? I don't think so, since the USA debt is now in the hands of the RPC... Bad.

    Back to the Rafale subject.

  6. #2001

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by m.i.t View Post
    l didnt know this . Greek or Indian friends may share their knowledge about M2K cost issues . Actually Greece retired all Mirage F1s which are younger fighters than A-7s are still active.

    As l knew French fighters ( msytere and mirage series) were economic alternatives of US made jets for noncommunists countries.
    It's about the upgrade of Mirage 2000 to the 2000-5 standard, IAF wants to upgrade 51 of them to this level and Dassault answered with costs of around $40 million each (including new radar, avionics and weapons). The fighter will be very capable of course and IAF officials wants it too, but the high costs caused big waves in the Indian public and media, especially because there were reports about an upgrade offer from Israel with a similar package, but way cheaper. Also 69 IAF Mig 29 will be upgraded, but for half the costs, although they will get even a new set of engines too.
    This issue and the already high costs for Rafale are the most quoted arguments against the Rafale in MMRCA related discussions, because everybody expects similar high upgrade costs in future for Rafale too.

  7. #2002
    Member Kongjun33's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    台灣 Taiwan ROC
    Posts
    634

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Sancho78 View Post
    It's about the upgrade of Mirage 2000 to the 2000-5 standard, IAF wants to upgrade 51 of them to this level and Dassault answered with costs of around $40 million each (including new radar, avionics and weapons). The fighter will be very capable of course and IAF officials wants it too, but the high costs caused big waves in the Indian public and media, especially because there were reports about an upgrade offer from Israel with a similar package, but way cheaper. Also 69 IAF Mig 29 will be upgraded, but for half the costs, although they will get even a new set of engines too.
    This issue and the already high costs for Rafale are the most quoted arguments against the Rafale in MMRCA related discussions, because everybody expects similar high upgrade costs in future for Rafale too.
    That s your point of view of anti-french industry. Recently Pakistans want to replace the JF-17 chinese avionic, by french one. French are not the cheapest in the world, but they proved the quality of their technology and know how.

  8. #2003

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Sancho78 View Post
    It's about the upgrade of Mirage 2000 to the 2000-5 standard, IAF wants to upgrade 51 of them to this level and Dassault answered with costs of around $40 million each (including new radar, avionics and weapons). The fighter will be very capable of course and IAF officials wants it too, but the high costs caused big waves in the Indian public and media, especially because there were reports about an upgrade offer from Israel with a similar package, but way cheaper. Also 69 IAF Mig 29 will be upgraded, but for half the costs, although they will get even a new set of engines too.
    This issue and the already high costs for Rafale are the most quoted arguments against the Rafale in MMRCA related discussions, because everybody expects similar high upgrade costs in future for Rafale too.
    Sure Dassault have to change its policy about parts they used to sell at gold price. Signs show that this is changing already.

    Now keep in mind that perhaps the Israeli offer was very interesting but in the end the IAF chose the Thales offer, so the Thales offer is probably better if costlier.
    As for the Mig 29 upgrade, first if they changed the engine it's probably because it needed to be changed contrary to the Mirage one. Second only once both type, Mig 29 and Mirage 2000 had been upgraded, one can compare them and see what's best for the money. Lets not forget also that the upgrade includes some MICA missiles on the price, an expensive but terribly efficient missile, the nightmare for any opponent, even the french themselves don't know how to counter them when both the EM and IR variants are fired at the same time.
    Now about Taiwan I'm glad the parts issue is solved, notably about there MICA, I hope Taiwan can keep them in good operational condition.

  9. #2004

  10. #2005
    Senior Member Olybrius's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Posts
    3,786

    Default

    An interesting news about France and UAE relationships, even if its not directly linked to the Rafale:
    The 13th DBLE (Demi-Brigade de Legion Etrangere), the FFL unit based in Djibouti, could definitively leave Djibouti for the french base in Abu Dhabi.
    From:
    http://www.marianne2.fr/blogsecretde...alise_a39.html

    For the record:
    http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums...=1#post5317939
    Last edited by Olybrius; 11-26-2010 at 07:47 AM.

  11. #2006
    Senior Member Olybrius's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Posts
    3,786

    Default

    [CENTER][/CENTER]

    [CENTER][FONT=arial][SIZE=5]The Rafale is back in Afghanistan [/SIZE]
    Le Mamouth, Nov 26

    [/FONT][/CENTER]
    [FONT=arial]
    The CDG aircraft carrier sent yesterday its first broadside of Rafale and Hawkeye operate over Afghanistan. This commitment in support of ISAF should last a little less than forty days.
    [/FONT]
    From:
    http://lemamouth.blogspot.com/2010/1...ghanistan.html

  12. #2007
    Senior Member Olybrius's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Posts
    3,786

    Default

    RafaleNews reports Cne Romain's comment after meeting the French pilots who were at Cruzex:

    [CENTER][FONT=arial][SIZE=5]Brazilian pilots in love with the Rafale [/SIZE]
    RafaleNews , Nov 26[/FONT][/CENTER]
    [FONT=arial]
    Well at least, that what the french Rafale pilot Captain Romain is telling on his blog :
    [...]
    From now on, the Brazilians were able to fly on Rafale and their pilots are now, as every pilot who has tested the Rafale, merely in love of a fully omnirole and operational aircraft.
    [...]

    [/FONT]
    More:
    http://rafalenews.blogspot.com/2010/...th-rafale.html
    Original link
    http://blog.francetv.fr/capitaine-ro...urdhui#c377149

    Btw Romain doesn't seem to give much credibility to the so-called Longvilliers interview published by a brazilian tabloid/blog

  13. #2008

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Kongjun33 View Post
    That s your point of view of anti-french industry. Recently Pakistans want to replace the JF-17 chinese avionic, by french one. French are not the cheapest in the world, but they proved the quality of their technology and know how.
    Guys, don't shoot the messenger!

    I just explained what the issue with the Mirage upgrade and possibly with Rafale is and it's not my personal opinion, but what was reported and often said in other forums.

    Quote Originally Posted by filochard View Post
    Sure Dassault have to change its policy about parts they used to sell at gold price. Signs show that this is changing already.

    Now keep in mind that perhaps the Israeli offer was very interesting but in the end the IAF chose the Thales offer, so the Thales offer is probably better if costlier.
    As for the Mig 29 upgrade, first if they changed the engine it's probably because it needed to be changed contrary to the Mirage one. Second only once both type, Mig 29 and Mirage 2000 had been upgraded, one can compare them and see what's best for the money...
    I hope they change things, perhaps even with a partnership of India that could reduce the costs a lot (production of spares and weapons in India, integration of cheaper Indian weapons, Kaveri-Snecma engine possibly).
    That's what I told Olybrius too, the chances of Rafale in India depend on Dassault itself, because IAF loves French fighters anyway, but politically France gov can't compete with the US, so the industrial part of the deal (ToT, offsets, partnership?) will decide Rafales faith.
    EF consortium for example is pushing really hard with a lot of PR these days and they offer a partnership to India and just like Boeing they aim to transfer the production of some parts for all EFs/F18SHs to India. All that was reported from Dassault so far, is that they aim on closer ties with India and want to go "beyond a buyer - seller relationship", whatever that means.
    President Sarkozy is expected in India early dec and I guess Dassault will send some high officials too, at least to sign the Mirage upgrade contract, but imo this visit will decide about Rafale too.

    Regarding the upgrade, AFAIK Israel offered radar, avionics, HMS and weapons(most likely Elta 2032 radar, Python V / Derby AAMs, Dash HMS...), but couldn't do other changes on the fighter itself, to extend it's life for another 10 to 15 years. That means even if the Israeli package was more cost-effective, or even better, India had to do major parts of the upgrade with Dassault/Thales anyway.

  14. #2009
    Senior Member Olybrius's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Posts
    3,786

    Default

    Perhaps you guys should open a new topic if you want to continue this debate

  15. #2010
    Senior Member Olybrius's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Posts
    3,786

    Default

    An old article already posted about the tranche 4 order was updated with interesting infos:

    [CENTER][FONT=arial][SIZE=5]France’s DGA Awards Multi-year Contract [/SIZE]
    -[/FONT][/CENTER]
    [FONT=arial]
    [...]
    In 2009, Dassault Aviation booked a single French military order worth 2.28 billion euros, company CEO Charles Edelstenne told reporters March 17, so it is easy to infer that is the value to Dassault of the 60 Rafales ordered in December.
    This is not the total cost of the aircraft, however. Edelstenne noted that many of the aircraft's components and systems (engines, avionics, radar, ejection seat, etc.) are government-furnished equipment ordered from other suppliers (Snecma, Thales, etc.), an are paid separately by the customer.
    The contract's value excludes value-added tax and weapons

    [...]
    [/FONT]
    From:
    http://www.defense-aerospace.com/art...C2%A7i%3E.html

    So i wonder how are paid ,for exemple, the standard Rbe2 aesa which are delivered by Thales at low rate since August, when according to the production rate of the current "PESA" Rafale [93 (total delivered end 2010) + 11 (2011) + 11 (2012) + 5 (2013) = 120] , the first tranche 4 "AESA" Rafale should be delivered in june 2013.
    Currently 3 rafale are fitted with pre-production AESA radar , one "Navy" Rafale M, one "Air Force" Rafale B and another Rafale at Dassault disposal for experimentation purpose, but it was a separate order.
    In any case, it could mean that Dassault is contractually and technically already able to deliver an Aesa Rafale if needed .

    http://lemamouth.blogspot.com/2010/0...-de-serie.html
    http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?i=4697061
    Last edited by Olybrius; 11-26-2010 at 11:56 AM. Reason: typo

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •