Thread: Rafale News

  1. #2611
    Senior Member Olybrius's Avatar
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    [CENTER]
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    "Le Temps" , a western Switzerland daily newspaper published yesterday several articles about the Swiss competition. Here is the part about Rafale:

    [CENTER][FONT=arial][SIZE=5]The Rafale[/SIZE]
    [/FONT]Le Temps, Nov 25
    [/CENTER]
    [FONT=arial]
    Built by the French Dassault, this jet is definitely the most capable aircraft. It is also the most expensive. Its target price is around 150 million euros [!!?]. But one must put this price into perspective The French offer offset transactions with Swiss small businesses for some 6 billion Swiss francs, a participation in research and development with the French aircraft industry. France provides also supersonic flight areas less than thirty minutes from Payerne, the opening of French bases, exchange and training of technicians and participation in development. Commissioned in 2005, the Rafale has not yet been sold abroad. But it demonstrated its abilities by supporting an important part of the operations during the conflict in Libya. It is the preferred aircraft of the Swiss pilots.
    [/FONT]
    Google translated from:
    http://www.letemps.ch/Page/Uuid/73fc...de07/Le_Rafale
    and:
    http://www.letemps.ch/Page/Uuid/752d...uperdiscounter
    http://www.letemps.ch/Page/Uuid/727c...7/LEurofighter
    http://www.letemps.ch/Page/Uuid/72b8...de07/Le_Gripen

    In other articles:
    - Central Switzerland industrialists (Ruag...) and politicians would favor Gripen , Small businesses and politicians from western Switzerland would prefer Rafale.
    - Sweden would have recently launched a strong lobbying campaign aimed especially at Ueli Maurer.
    - The Swiss air force fear that the government will choose the lowest bid with the less capable and the less proven combat aircraft.
    - Amount of offset: 8 billions francs for Eurofighter, 6 billions for Rafale, 5.5 billions for Gripen.
    - Eurofighter: 4 countries, 700 aircrafts, cheaper than Rafale (!?) but Austria is complaining about maintenance costs , training bases in Germany, lacks air-to-ground capacities. With a consortium of 4 manufacturers, Switzerland will struggle to impose its needs.
    - Gripen: Cheaper (the Swedes even lowered their price, now < 3 billions), less capable, small size of the manufacturer, uncertain future, part of the development costs to be paid by Switzerland. Best offer for Ruag (more work :development...). Training area in the North.

    About the prices : Le Temps says 150 millions Euros for Rafale (!), 80/100 millions for Typhoon and 50 millions for Gripen, but in the main article they write 3 billions for the Saab offer and 4 billions for Dassault and Eurofighter. It seems not coherent and rather fanciful so i have asked the journalist about these prices. His answer:

    There is great confusion on prices in the public and even on some supposedly specialized sites [he's talking of Avianews]. The unit target price I mentioned is an order of magnitude, it does not mean much and it should not be taken into account because each country buys products in various versions and with various weapons and radar - the weapons guidance systems are incredibly expensive -same with pilot training, technical supervision, participation in development, etc.. Then there are great bargains functions of the number of aircrafts or market conditions, etc.. When we talk about 3-4 billion, a figure that I give in my article, this is a budget "all inclusive" estimated in September with the Helvetic specification . Since then, manufacturers have made new offers, and as I mentioned, the prices announced for the Gripen would be half the original price. The surprises would come later with maintenance and especially development.
    So, no reliable sources, just "indicative" prices which "does not mean much". In fact, i understand he has taken up fancy prices that were published by Edipresse group:
    http://www.opex360.com/2011/11/10/le...bat-en-suisse/

    In the end, "Le Temps" thinks the price will be the decisive criterion ...
    Last edited by Olybrius; 11-25-2011 at 08:41 AM.

  2. #2612
    Senior Member Olybrius's Avatar
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    [CENTER][/CENTER]

    Still "Le Temps" with a editorial written by the former head of the Swiss Army about the criteria that should guide the choice of the future combat aircraft

    [CENTER][FONT=arial][SIZE=5]Between 13 and 15 combat aircraft, a minimum for our defense

    [/SIZE]
    [/FONT]Le Temps, nov 25
    [/CENTER]
    [FONT=arial]
    Parliament has set the 3 parameters affecting the development of our army: 100,000 men, 5 billion annual budget and the partial replacement of the Tiger. The thoughs below illuminate the last parameter cited, said the former army chief Christophe Keckeis.
    [...]
    Choice of the aircraft:

    Six key parameters must be considered in the choice of the aircraft:
    - First, the candidate must exist in the proposed configuration and all the missions expected must be fully developed and must have been demonstrated in real commitment. This requirement eliminates the risks of moving from a prototype to a finished system.
    - The aircraft must remain longer in production. It is important in order to present a real option when it will be necessary to replace our F/A-18, after 2030 or so, to have a homogeneous fleet in order to reduce operating costs.
    - The aircraft must have a life span of 40 years in order to ensure sustainability. [summary]
    - The candidate must have a development potential corresponding to the expected life.
    - Fifth, the choice the best offer should cover all of the proposed package, including the valuable potential of industrial and operational bilateral cooperation. [summary]
    - Finally, the state which offers its aircraft must have the greatest possible interest to have a reliable and high quality Swiss air defense . This ensures , in times of crisis, a potential for additional deliveries and optimal variants of cooperation
    [...]
    The acquisition cost is not itself a decisive criterion. All the arguments mentioned above must be taken into account.
    [/FONT]
    Google translated from:
    http://www.letemps.ch/Page/Uuid/75c5...e179a475de07|1

  3. #2613
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    Default Interesting article in Air&Cosmos about feedback from Harmattan

    Interesting Article in Air&Cosmos (25/11/2011) about Rafale engagement in Harmattan.

    Very Basic summary of the feedback from the DGA and the french air force:
    1) As expected overall positive feeedback about the Rafale itself, which meets all expectations
    2) However half of the tragets on the ground could not be "treated", partially because of difficulties in clearly identfying small targets in urban environment. Therefore improvement of Damocles required (increase resolution, IR sensor, etc...) which will likely take a few years. In the meantime buying a few Sniper nacelles to temporarily equip Rafale is envisaged.
    3) Low collateral damage weapons required, two options: (i) intergating Birmstone missile (which allowed RAF tornados GR4 to treat targets that the french plane could not due to high risk of collateral damage) or (ii) adapting AASM to a 125kg bomb.
    4) Lack of weapons dedicated to anti radar strike (like AGM88). the DGA would envisage an original solution consisting in using Spectra-AASM couple to close this gap (...?)
    5) very good feedback from utilisation of Reco-NG and Scalp-EG. Scalp-EG to be upgraded in 2-3 years with new GPS antenna improving, amongst other things, anti jamming performance.

  4. #2614
    Senior Member xav's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by littlejohn View Post
    2) However half of the tragets on the ground could not be "treated", partially because of difficulties in clearly identfying small targets in urban environment. Therefore improvement of Damocles required (increase resolution, IR sensor, etc...) which will likely take a few years. In the meantime buying a few Sniper nacelles to temporarily equip Rafale is envisaged.

    4) Lack of weapons dedicated to anti radar strike (like AGM88). the DGA would envisage an original solution consisting in using Spectra-AASM couple to close this gap (...?)
    LOL what ?

    - Take few years? Buying Sniper? No way. The new Damocles XF first flight is scheduled for 2012

    - Close which "gap" ? It is French Air Force doctrine to use AASM for SEAD. There is no gap to be filled.

  5. #2615

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    Quote Originally Posted by xav² View Post
    LOL what ?

    - Take few years? Buying Sniper? No way. The new Damocles XF first flight is scheduled for 2012

    - Close which "gap" ? It is French Air Force doctrine to use AASM for SEAD. There is no gap to be filled.
    Perhaps they mean the gap between a purpose built SEAD platform and Rafale. Maybe they learnt something that needs improvement?

  6. #2616
    Senior Member Martel's Avatar
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    There won't be a dedicated SEAD platform in France. Maybe there will be some kind of dedicated Hammer seeker, but existing Hammer seemed to work fine with Spectra.

  7. #2617
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    Quote Originally Posted by littlejohn View Post
    4) Lack of weapons dedicated to anti radar strike (like AGM88). the DGA would envisage an original solution consisting in using Spectra-AASM couple to close this gap (...?)
    The AASM/Spectra couple is already the current solution.

  8. #2618
    Senior Member Olybrius's Avatar
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    There is no gap but in some cases a lack of accuracy to treat targets in a secure manner without colataral damage. As explained by Bill Sweetman in the last DTI issue, the path chosen is to detect an emitter with SPECTRA and to locate it with sufficient accuracy to slew the improved Pod on to it and engage it with the imaging IR version of the Hammer. About the Pod, there is a DGA's study plan in progress called MASTRID ([FONT=&amp]Multicontext Airborne System for Targetting, Recognition and Identification[/FONT]); thanks to this study plan, an improved Damocles XF pod will be avalaible in 2012 , Damocles XF will offer new data link and especially an enhanced identification system; but studies are ongoing for a later NG version.

    About damocles XF:
    http://www.deagel.com/Navigation-and...001507002.aspx

    For the record, here are the current DGA study plan known for the Rafale (called in french PEA for plan d'etudes amont):

    MASTRID – (Multicontext Airborne System for Targetting, Recognition and Identification)
    Improved Damocles pod with a new visible way with zoom and improved infrared module.
    In progress , Damocles XF avalaible in 2012, Damocles NG later

    DETENAA (DÉveloppement de TEchnologies Nouvelles pour Avions d’Armes)
    New digital HUD. Demonstration done at Paris Air Show 2011

    DEDIRA – (Demonstrateur de Discretion Rafale)
    Stealth rafale: The goal is to reduce Rafale's RCS with passive and active solutions: Improved air intake design -NG RAM -Stealth Cocoon to hide weapons ...
    In progress

    INCAS – (INtegration de nouvelles CApacités a Spectra)
    - Improved detection
    - Improved jamming
    - GaN modules instead of GaaS modules for RBE2 and SPECTRA
    In progress since 2009

    Some PEA like ECO ( CGP pack -> M88-4E) or DASIGL (AASM laser) ended lately and there are also some PEA that affect only partially the aircraft like MOVEA (MOdèle de Vulnérabilité Électro-magnétique des Aéronefs) about Electromagnetic vulnerability which is in progress since 2004.

    Sources:
    Air & Cosmos 2269 juin 2011
    DSI HS 18

  9. #2619
    Senior Member Olybrius's Avatar
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    Dubai AirShow 2011:






    From:
    http://www.spottingzone.com/forum/20...opic13427.html

    As a matter of interest, Captain Brocard's display solo was carried on board a Rafale C belonging to the 3/30 Lorraine fighter squadron based at Al Dhafra (UAE) and not on board one of the two usual "30000 hours" Rafale based in France.
    http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums...=1#post5876715
    So, the cover of the Nation Shield's november issue is wrong.

    http://nationshield.ae/

  10. #2620
    Senior Member xav's Avatar
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    @Olybrius, thanks for the detailed info on PEA

  11. #2621
    Senior Member Olybrius's Avatar
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    DSI special edition 20, November 2011


    Pages 40-44: Interview with Rear Admiral Herve de Bonaventure, commander of the French Naval Aviation

    Operation Harmattan for the Naval Aviation, between March 20 and August 12, 2011 (Rafale + SEM):
    - 1100 operational missions
    - 770 attack missions
    - 356 reco missions
    - 2400 catapultings (Hawkeye included)
    - 3600 flight hours over Lybia

    -Currently, 20 Rafale M are available with flotillas 11F (since September 19) and 12F.
    -The transformation of the 10 mothballed Rafale F1 in F3 will start in 2014
    -The target for Naval aviation is 58 Rafale divided into 3 multirole flotillas.

    Other points:
    - AASM, SCALP, RECO-NG were used for the first time in operation by Rafale M
    - For the first time, the Navy conducted landings at night with real weapons under the wings without using any disengagement airfield.
    - Rafale M 's availability rate between 80 and 90%

  12. #2622
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    Quote Originally Posted by Olybrius View Post
    -The transformation of the 10 mothballed Rafale F1 in F3 will start in 2014
    -The target for Naval aviation is 58 Rafale divided into 3 multirole flotillas.
    - ouch, that's late
    - this is funny, since 58 is not a multiple of 3

  13. #2623
    Senior Member Olybrius's Avatar
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    It depends on what means F3, the current F3 or the future F3+ called F30-04T with RBE2-AESA, DDM NG, OSF-IT and M88-04T.
    In the second case, the upgrade fits logically into the Rafale delivery schedule.

    For the record:

    - End of 2011: Testing campaign in progress with the Rafale M02 fitted with RBE2-AESA, DDM NG and OSF-IT.
    - Before mid-2012: Delivery of the Rafale C137, 1st production Rafale model F30-04T .
    - From June 2013: Every "garden-variety" Rafale delivered to the French Army will be F30-04T.
    (F30-04T is also the Rafale offered to Switzerland, Brazil and India)

  14. #2624

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    Forgive me for asking but what will be improved with the OSF-IT?

  15. #2625
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    Rafale on the cover of DTI-Aviation Week December 2011 :


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