Rafale News

[vWarWolfv]

how long airstrip needed for Rafale to take off with full load and landing?
Is rafale able to take off and landing in harsh airstrip?
how about Rafale maintenance and flying cost comparing with Typhoon, MKI and Gripen?
is Malaysian plan to buy Rafale than Typhoon?
UAE had cancelled isn't it?


thx all

1- 600m with full load, less than 400m with normal air defense load.
2- depend what do you mean by harsh
3- Cheaper than typhoon and MKI
4- We dont know
5- No, still in negociation

[Olybrius]

The Subcommittee of the Committee on Security Policy of the National Council will debate Feb. 21 about the Federal Council's decision on the Gripen. The Chairman of the Subcommittee, Thomas Hurter (UDC / HS), confirmed Monday to the "Neue Zürcher Zeitung".
The Federal Council has given assurances that the Subcommittee will have access to the documents that supported its decision, said Thomas Hurter. And clarify that the government made ​​its decision based on documents he has requested for this purpose.
The sub-committee now wants to know exactly on what basis the Federal Council decided in favor of the Gripen.

Google translated from:
http://www.24heures.ch/suisse/Un-deb...story/16856633
http://www.aargauerzeitung.ch/schwei...chte-120796049

[simonov]

1- 600m with full load, less than 400m with normal air defense load.
2- depend what do you mean by harsh
3- Cheaper than typhoon and MKI
4- We dont know
5- No, still in negociation

the full load means with air ground capability? how about the landing?
is any plan to offer Rafale to Vietnam? thx

2- depend what do you mean by harsh

i mean like grass airfield or highway

[Olybrius]

Rafale swoops to top of India’s list
Financial Times,

[...]
But many of India’s top defence analysts say a reversal of the decision is unlikely, given a technical and price-based process, low on political interference, that has already spurned Boeing’s F/A-18 Super Hornet and Lockheed Martin’s F-16IN Super Viper.

P.S. Ahluwalia, former air marshal, hails the choice of Rafale a “paradigm shift of procurement” with a minimum of government interference.

Jasjit Singh, former air commodore and director of the Delhi-based Centre for Air Power Studies, predicts that the Rafale choice could unlock India’s arms procurement, which was previously hobbled by a scandal over the purchase of Bofors guns from Sweden in the 1980s.

Mr Singh says: “This process, systematic and almost scientific, even if rather prolonged, should finally lay the ghost of Bofors – that has been the major cause of delays in defence modernisation for the past century – to rest.”

Mr Singh considers India’s aerospace industry, centred upon Bangalore-based Hindustan Aeronautics, as in its infancy. He says India needs to accelerate building a defence industry base that can equip the Indian military and also develop export markets in regions such as south-east Asia and Africa.

Foreign partnerships, like the one with Dassault, will be key to whether India succeeds at a time of high domestic economic growth and as it attempts a big military “catch-up” with neighbouring China.

Top French officials say Rafale came out on top in terms of the lowest unit price and lifetime cost. They also say that, besides offering attractive technological transfers, their bid demonstrated how well the Rafale had performed operationally in the Nato-led campaign over the skies of Libya last year.

Bharat Karnad, a defence analyst at the Centre for Policy Research in New Delhi, says France was prepared to share sensitive technology to a greater extent than other bidders.

“It’s very important that we squeeze them for a lot of things, and not just related to the aircraft,” says Mr Karnad.

Many believe the deal extends way beyond the aerospace industry. Uday Bhaskar, a defence analyst and former commodore, calls Rafale’s selection a “strategic decision” linked to what India wants from shared civil nuclear technology and assistance in expanding a nuclear submarine fleet.

Yet the deal’s strongest critics argue India is buying obsolete equipment. They say it should be investing more heavily in fifth-generation fighter aircraft, or “stealth” technology, with Russia and the US to build a technological edge over China.

From:
http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/b8e04...#axzz1mHKAZvOW

[Olybrius]

Lajes / Azores, Portugal , 2008:


Lisbonne, March 2010:

[Honken]

3- Cheaper than typhoon and MKI

How much is the cost for each flight hour?

[Olybrius]

Rafale : 2012, year of the consecration ?
La Tribune, Feb 13

[...]
It is a market of 244 aircraft which is now in the viewfinder of the French group (126 in India, 36 in Brazil, 60 in the UAE, 18 in Switzerland) with a value estimated at twenty billion euro . And thus more than the 180 aircraft ordered by the French Ministry of Defense so far the only customer of this aircraft. A scenario unthinkable just three months ago when the Rafale continued its long series of disappointments. Into exclusive negotiations with Dassault Aviation , the UAE decided in mid-November to put in the race the Eurofighter from EADS , BAE Systems and Finmeccanica. In the wake, Switzerland preferred the Saab Gripen. But this is clearly the performance of the aircraft in the Libyan conflict that convinced India to enter into exclusive negotiations with the French group, a decision which in turn seems to have convinced Brasilia.
[...]

Google translated from:
http://www.latribune.fr/entreprises-...n-rafale-.html

[Chimera]

IMHO, it's normal that politicians don't get the very detailed technical reports. Instead they receive summarized documents(Hopefully without conveniently leaving dussins of pages out like in this "leak".).

The pages were not conviniently taken away from the report. The newspaper proposed to publish excerpts from the report to their online readers. Why is that so complicated for you to understand?

[Loke2]

The pages were not conviniently taken away from the report. The newspaper proposed to publish excerpts from the report to their online readers. Why is that so complicated for you to understand?

The two "reports" are merely a summary of a lot of other reports. They are written in a high-level but still technical language. The technical language does indicate that the audience of these summaries are not the politicians. We do not know who the intended audience could be, but most likely not the politicians. Therefore it's a bit rich to blame the politicians for not having read these reports, if they were not meant to read them!

Anyway, the point Caprice perhaps was alluding to, could be that these summary reports have not been leaked in full, just some parts of them. And it seems the parts that were leaked, conveniently supports the Rafale. Still, the final recommendation was to go with the Gripen.

Which means that some important details about this process have not been leaked.

However we do know some of them, and the most important being that Rafale did not meet the budgetary requirements. So perhaps neither Rafale nor Gripen met all requirements 100% (strictly speaking). In such a situation one may choose the one that is closest to meeting all requirements; technical, budgetary, ToT and offsets. From this point of view, the conclusion was that Gripen was the best choice for Switzerland.

[ArcDeus]

And it seems the parts that were leaked, conveniently supports the Rafale. Still, the final recommendation was to go with the Gripen.

It can also return the reasoning: if the Rafale seems highly appreciated by the report, it is probably because the Rafale (and Eurofighter) is ... the best plane of the three studied, according to criteria established by the report. What is objectively difficult to challenge today given the criteria.

Indeed, all variables studied appear to favor a multirole (omnirole) aircraft complete and mature. Therefore, what would be surprising is that another plane appears better than the Rafale...

Of course, you can not agree on this technical analysis, thinking that the reporters were simply truncated reality. We can also estimate that the criteria are not good given the needs and therefore the entire analysis is obsolete.

In all cases, this is pure conjecture.

What seems very real however is that:

1 - Given the elements of analysis and based on criteria selected, the Rafale (and to a lesser extent Eurofighter) is rated higher (which is consistent with information from India or Brasil).

2 - The Swiss decided to retain the Gripen.

These two propositions are contradictory ?

Not necessarily if the assessment process and the requirements of it are not the main factor in decision.

This does not diminish the quality of the Rafale or Eurofighter, and it does not undermine the Gripen, which demonstrates its suitability to the requirements of potential customers (cost / effectiveness).

Many people seem surprised by this "exploit" compared with two other planes, in the only reason he was not exported before. But everyone knows that deals in this area are subject to other constraints that may have nothing to do with product quality (strategic or political advantage, or pure and simple price criteria).

Therefore, it is not unusual to see Rafale win now thanks to a reduced price and unparalleled capabilities in the case of multi role missions (for now). This does not detract from the relevance of other models like the Gripen which satisfies other niches such as f16 or mirages once...

PS: Sry, it's not news. I'm out.

[Loke2]

It can also return the reasoning: if the Rafale seems highly appreciated by the report, it is probably because the Rafale (and Eurofighter) is ... the best plane of the three studied, according to criteria established by the report. What is objectively difficult to challenge today given the criteria.

Indeed, all variables studied appear to favor a multirole (omnirole) aircraft complete and mature. Therefore, what would be surprising is that another plane appears better than the Rafale...

Of course, you can not agree on this technical analysis, thinking that the reporters were simply truncated reality. We can also estimate that the criteria are not good given the needs and therefore the entire analysis is obsolete.

What you seem to not comprehend is that the complete analysis includes looking at much more than just the technical capabilities of the fighters; for instance, budgetary constraints were critical, and Rafale did not meet those. The leaked reports did not address the finance issues at all. Presumably other reports addressed those parts, and in those reports Gripen came first, far ahead of both Typhoon and Rafale.

[Olybrius]

Its a NEWS topic , for useless discussions, go there :
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums...uation-LEAKED-!!

[Olybrius]

"Armees d'Aujourd'hui", Feb 2012:

8 pages about operation Harmattan (in French)
http://fr.calameo.com/read/000331627ef2a6d7d6feb

[Olybrius]

Rafale's pics of the month:
http://www.fightercontrol.co.uk/forum/search.php?fid[]=126

[Olybrius]

MMRCA evaluation manual to be patented
Sp Aviation, feb 13

The exhaustive and innovative matrix of procedures that the Indian Air Force and government brought into play to evaluate six relatively disparate fighter aircraft for the MMRCA requirement is to be patented and shared with friendly nations looking to purchase new jets.[...]
Assessing over 600 performance parameters, making a dramatic departure from the usual custom of treating flyaway price as an indicator of value and the entire method of distilling complex figures down to one consolidated figure indicating contract value has been a monumental effort, the details of which are certain to emerge over the next few months. Already, the IAF has received enquiries of interest in learning about how they went about doing it. For starters, Brazil, still grappling with a decision between the Rafale and Gripen is understood to have asked the Indian government for unofficial advice on how to make a good decision. Countries that will be participating in joint air exercises with the IAF over the next year have also unofficially expressed interest in being briefed about how the IAF made its choice and the various parameters that came into play while making the decision. Former IAF chief Air Chief Marshal P.V. Naik had first mooted the idea of patenting the MMRCA evaluation manual into a template for fair and prudent selection of advanced systems.

From:
http://spsaviation.net/exclusive/?id...to-be-patented