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Thread: Rafale News

  1. #691
    Senior Member Olybrius's Avatar
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    Cool

    Quote Originally Posted by Olybrius View Post
    Improved (?) google translation from:
    http://secretdefense.blogs.liberatio...x-emirats.html
    Chinese translation here :
    http://bbs.tiexue.net/post_3999766_1.html

  2. #692
    Senior Member Olybrius's Avatar
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    More seriously :

    16 Rafale F3 now in the french Navy.



    The Rafale M28 delivered to the Navy

    18/12/2009

    Built by Dassault Aviation and directly delivered to the F3 standard, the Rafale M28 was approved yesterday by the Naval Aviation. Like the M27, delivered in July, the new fighter will receive a small update to give it the final configuration selected. Thus, the M28, after a passage in Landivisiau for his commissioning visit, will join Mont-de-Marsan to be assessed by the Center for Practical Experiments and reception of Naval Aviation (CEPA/10S). He then will go back in the FinistŤre to be integrated into the 12F fleet.
    To date, the Navy has 16 standard F3 Rafale, 3 new aircraft to be delivered by Dassault next year. With Modernized Super Etendard (SEM) and E-2 C Hawkeye, they are part of the Air Group of the aircraft carrier Charles de Gaulle.
    google translation from:
    http://www.meretmarine.com/article.cfm?id=112029

    and

    The aircraft carrier Charles de Gaulle officially operational
    http://translate.google.fr/translate...erationnel.htm
    http://www.lesechos.fr/depeches/fran...erationnel.htm

  3. #693

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    Some news from the Brazilian evaluation (FAB) :

    basically :

    -Rafale leading on technical grounds but it is the most expensive
    -Gripen leading on Price but the FAB isn't sure that SAAB and vixen could deliver the NG on time. Plus the reliability of technical infos given as been called into question.
    -SH is a good compromise between the costly rafale and the paper aircraft gripen NG.

    One a side not, the rafale is regarded as the stealthiest aircraft among all the contenders.

    unfortunately the google translation is not very good but you can still catch the main ideas :

    [*******#22229c]http://www.istoe.com.br/reportagens/...O+ADIANTAMENTO[/COLOR]


    Quote:
    The cost of the advance

    It takes the government to decide which game will equip the Air Force delays plans for defense of the country and threatens the credibility of the negotiations with the three finalists

    Claudio Dantas Smith and Octavio Costa



    FIGHTING Factory Dassault: 36 fighters would cost $ 10 billion

    The competition for the purchase of 36 fighter jets by the FAB, estimated at $ 10 billion, seems an endless novel. In the latest chapter, the Defense Minister Nelson Jobim announced further postponement in the selection of fighters, this time to January 2010. It said the reasons for and command of the FAB remain silent so as not to break the hierarchy. The cost of this uncertainty is enormous, because it affects not only the credibility of the negotiations and delay the defense plans of the country, which sees its airspace vulnerable. "You can not stay in this litany. Whether the political criterion, either by coach, you need to resolve them, "said retired Colonel Geraldo Cavagnari, the Center for Strategic Studies at Unicamp. He explains that, once decided to purchase, will run six months until the contract is signed. For the analyst of international security Gunther Rudzītis is necessary to prevent a repeat of the failure of the FX program, held over the last year of the Cardoso government, and finally canceled in 2003. Brazil is in urgent need of a generation of fighter aircraft to ensure the safety of the heavens and their wealth in the territorial sea. ISTO… obtained confidential details of the offers of the finalists: the French Rafale from Dassault, the American F-18 Super Hornet, Boeing, and the Swedish Gripen NG, the Saab.

    The report shows the FAB strengths and weaknesses of each plane using a color code (blue, yellow and red) instead of notes.

    [*******red]Of the three, the French jet introduced technology package more comprehensive and Swedish appears at first sight, had the best price.[/COLOR] Your unit value, without the package of armaments and maintenance costs, is U.S. $ 50 million. It would be a good deal, not for the Gripen NG only one project in development. This makes it impossible to calculate their real costs and ensure compliance with deadlines. Despite the expectation of development together with Embraer, the dome of Defense knows that choosing the Gripen NG would be like signing a blank check. FAB this item marked in red. "You can not buy what is on the drawing board," warns Cavagnari. In fact, the historical records of the airline industry in the world attest to the instability of estimates on a plane is not yet operational. The F-18 Super Hornet, for example, showed average growth of 100% between the amount originally planned pelosfabricantes and the final cost of the project, which reached U.S. $ 9.5 billion.


    SHADOWS The French Rafale is a fighter with more ability to remain invisible to enemy radar

    Nevertheless, the U.S. fighter is offered today at a stable price of $ 55 million. In the case of the Rafale, to be fully operational, it took 7.5 billion euros (U.S. $ 10.9 billion), a difference of 50% over the initial estimate. Your unit price without arms and support was 94 million euros ($ 136 million) when he began to be sold, but then fell to 54 million euros ($ 78 million). This is the value offered to Brazil in the last proposal and even practiced by Dassault with the French government. Besides the price issue, raised by President Lula during the visit of French counterpart Nicolas Sarkozy ABrasilia in September, is at stake in the term. According Cavagnari, the defense sector is in the process of dismantling advanced, which began in 1995. "We have immediate needs of air power that must be addressed," he explains. Then there is another problem. FAB to receive the first aircraft in 2014. Who guarantees to deliver the request in a timely manner? Dassault is in the production line of Rafale heated by new orders from the French government, which gives security to meet the deadlines. The BoeingtradiÁ„o punctuality in sales of F-18. Already a Saab should take eight years to make their hunting operation. For example, the radar that will equip the Gripen began to be developed this year alone.

    "To have an idea, Saab develops radar Caesar for the Typhoon fighter for five years and forecast to be ready is 2016. Now they say they can develop a similar radar, the Raven, to equip the Gripen NG, 2011. I find it unlikely, "said the expert Pedro Paulo Rezende. Another important point in the analysis of FAB is the cost of flight-hours. An airplane that consumes too much is not feasible in the long term. The time of flight of the F-18 is $ 11 thousand, while that of the Rafale is U.S. $ 14 mil. Since the Gripen, according to Saab, it would be $ 4 mil. But the Technical Committee of the FX-2 (Copac), from calculations based on data extrapolated maintenance Gripen C / D (prior to version NG), found a very different value: U.S. $ 8 mil. Similarly, Norway and the Netherlands, to assess the Swedish hunting, came to U.S. $ 10 mil. [*******red]The divergence of information led to the FAB mark this item Gripen in yellow attention. The F-18 won blue for that matter[/COLOR], but reddened under "radar signature", which means tracking by enemy radar. [*******red]The Rafale, according to official figures, the game is more "invisible" among competitors.[/COLOR]

    [*******red]In a recent mock exercise with the U.S. Navy, the French jets "dropped" six F-18 and lost only two aircraft. The U.S. pilots said they could only see the Rafale on the radar when it was too late to react. Now, who needs to act fast is the Brazilian government.[/COLOR]

  4. #694
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    ^
    What a bunch of bollocks. Pretty much everything is off in regards to Gripen. I'll give my view on the separate parts but not this saturday evening perhaps.

    In a recent mock exercise with the U.S. Navy, the French jets "dropped" six F-18 and lost only two aircraft. The U.S. pilots said they could only see the Rafale on the radar when it was too late to react. Now, who needs to act fast is the Brazilian government.
    Very good on the French and Rafale, I hold both in high regard. Swedish Air Force with Gripen A and C have held exercises with the Finnish Air Force F-18's for a few years now and is reported to never have lost a plane.

    In the Gripen thread there is a recent post on the Hungarian Air Force participation in the NATO Tiger Meet. It featured Gripens, F-16's from the other NATO nations and Swiss F-18's. The Hungarians reported they lost two planes and dropped sixteen.
    Last edited by Breerman; 12-19-2009 at 02:03 PM.

  5. #695
    Senior Member Olybrius's Avatar
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    Very interesting Arthuro, it confirms the french sources claiming the Brazilians don't trust the swedish offer. So, if the Rafale is too expensive, i understand the SH could be a very good alternative; but i read they don't want to buy US for political reasons (Lula..) and because they don't trust the U.S. for a full technology transfer.
    Dassault should make a special effort .

  6. #696
    Senior Member Martel's Avatar
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    hmmm, see the picture of the Rafale in "disputa acirrada"

  7. #697
    Senior Member Olybrius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Breerman View Post
    ^
    What a bunch of bollocks. Pretty much everything is off in regards to Gripen. I'll give my view on the separate parts but not this saturday evening perhaps.


    Very good on the French and Rafale, I hold both in high regard. Swedish Air Force with Gripen A and C have held exercises with the Finnish Air Force F-18's for a few years now and is reported to never have lost a plane.

    In the Gripen thread there is a recent post on the Hungarian Air Force participation in the NATO Tiger Meet. It featured Gripens, F-16's from the other NATO nations and Swiss F-18's. The Hungarians reported they lost two planes and dropped sixteen.
    lol take it easy , it means nothing and that's not the most interesting part of the article....

    btw; about the source:

    ISTO… - Launched in may in 1976- Periodicity: weekly
    Daring, inquisitive, ethical. Three words that portray ISTO… - a combination of credibility and transparency that make it a unique publication. And it is due to this profile the magazine ranks among the ten major informative publications in the world, having a paramount importance in the history of Brazil and the Brazilian journalism.
    http://editora3.terra.com.br/publici...gles/index.htm

    mmm ad

    500 000 ex., Brazil, weekly. Founded in 1977, "ISTOE" is one of the main brazilian weekly . Critic of the Brazilian society, ISTO… is magazine which disturb. Liberal and center left, Istoe is published in S„o Paulo
    Last edited by Olybrius; 12-19-2009 at 02:42 PM.

  8. #698

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    Quote Originally Posted by Breerman View Post
    ^
    What a bunch of bollocks. Pretty much everything is off in regards to Gripen. I'll give my view on the separate parts but not this saturday evening perhaps.


    Very good on the French and Rafale, I hold both in high regard. Swedish Air Force with Gripen A and C have held exercises with the Finnish Air Force F-18's for a few years now and is reported to never have lost a plane.

    In the Gripen thread there is a recent post on the Hungarian Air Force participation in the NATO Tiger Meet. It featured Gripens, F-16's from the other NATO nations and Swiss F-18's. The Hungarians reported they lost two planes and dropped sixteen.
    Do we know the ROE in any of the contests???

  9. #699

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    Breeman,

    rafale was opposed to the Super Hornet while the gripen was opposed to the hornet. That a totally different generation...

    This is quite a difference in radar, MMI, SA, RCS etc etc perfromance.

    One of the last rafale encounter against the Super Hornet was against the Block2...mind you with AESA and everything !

  10. #700

    Question

    Quote:

    [*******#ff0000]In a recent mock exercise with the U.S. Navy, the French jets "dropped" six F-18 and lost only two aircraft. The U.S. pilots said they could only see the Rafale on the radar when it was too late to react. Now, who needs to act fast is the Brazilian government.[/COLOR]

    As always the "devil" can be in the details??? First, I "assume" the F-18's were Super Hornets and not older Hornets??? Plus, during the ACM were all the aircraft Flying Clean or with External Tanks and Missiles???


    Oh, and what about the ROE???

  11. #701

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    To know the ROE is always better I agree...But if you want to know everything each time you won't debate on anything.

    So it is not perfect as we don't know the ROE, but that is not a reason to dodge the debate.

    If this encounter was totally irrelevant because of execissvely restrictive ROE then that would't be brought as an example in a technical evaluation.
    I bet The FAB has enough experts to understand this problematic.

    I found facinating that each time there is sometning which doesn't fit your opinion then some people will fight to descredit the fact finding all the "what if ?" possibilities. We should take it as it is : not a perfect information as we don't know the ROE but still a valid point as it was taken into account by the FAB.

  12. #702

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scooter2 View Post
    As always the "devil" can be in the details??? First, I "assume" the F-18's were Super Hornets and not older Hornets???
    Actually, the original Hornet is better suited for dogfights than the Super Hornet. It is faster, maintains E better, has faster acceleration and higher turn rates.

    Well, according to the guys that fly them anyways.

  13. #703

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    Quote Originally Posted by tidls View Post
    Actually, the original Hornet is better suited for dogfights than the Super Hornet. It is faster, maintains E better, has faster acceleration and higher turn rates.

    Well, according to the guys that fly them anyways.

    But ths SH is a superior BVR platform as it is relevant in the quoted example...

    I doubt that the SH should waited to come to visual range to detect a rafale. they are certainly talking about BVR...I hope for the SH otherwise I will have doubt over its radar capabilities !

  14. #704

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    Quote Originally Posted by arthuro View Post
    But ths SH is a superior BVR platform as it is relevant in the quoted example...

    I doubt that the SH should waited to come to visual range to detect a rafale. they are certainly talking about BVR...I hope for the SH otherwise I will have doubt over its radar capabilities !
    I'm aware that the Super Hornet is a better machine in BVR compared to the original Hornet. I also believe they're talking BVR. The Rafale is more than a match for the Super Hornet. BVR or WVR.

  15. #705

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    Quote Originally Posted by arthuro View Post
    To know the ROE is always better I agree...But if you want to know everything each time you won't debate on anything.

    So it is not perfect as we don't know the ROE, but that is not a reason to dodge the debate.

    If this encounter was totally irrelevant because of execissvely restrictive ROE then that would't be brought as an example in a technical evaluation.
    I bet The FAB has enough experts to understand this problematic.

    I found facinating that each time there is sometning which doesn't fit your opinion then some people will fight to descredit the fact finding all the "what if ?" possibilities. We should take it as it is : not a perfect information as we don't know the ROE but still a valid point as it was taken into account by the FAB.

    Personally, I doubt most members would consider asking for the ROE or how the aircraft were equipped. As being out of line or unreasonable???

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