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Thread: Rafale News

  1. #691
    Senior Member Olybrius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Breerman View Post
    ^
    What a bunch of bollocks. Pretty much everything is off in regards to Gripen. I'll give my view on the separate parts but not this saturday evening perhaps.


    Very good on the French and Rafale, I hold both in high regard. Swedish Air Force with Gripen A and C have held exercises with the Finnish Air Force F-18's for a few years now and is reported to never have lost a plane.

    In the Gripen thread there is a recent post on the Hungarian Air Force participation in the NATO Tiger Meet. It featured Gripens, F-16's from the other NATO nations and Swiss F-18's. The Hungarians reported they lost two planes and dropped sixteen.
    lol take it easy , it means nothing and that's not the most interesting part of the article....

    btw; about the source:

    ISTO… - Launched in may in 1976- Periodicity: weekly
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    http://editora3.terra.com.br/publici...gles/index.htm

    mmm ad

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    Last edited by Olybrius; 12-19-2009 at 03:42 PM.

  2. #692

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    Quote Originally Posted by Breerman View Post
    ^
    What a bunch of bollocks. Pretty much everything is off in regards to Gripen. I'll give my view on the separate parts but not this saturday evening perhaps.


    Very good on the French and Rafale, I hold both in high regard. Swedish Air Force with Gripen A and C have held exercises with the Finnish Air Force F-18's for a few years now and is reported to never have lost a plane.

    In the Gripen thread there is a recent post on the Hungarian Air Force participation in the NATO Tiger Meet. It featured Gripens, F-16's from the other NATO nations and Swiss F-18's. The Hungarians reported they lost two planes and dropped sixteen.
    Do we know the ROE in any of the contests???

  3. #693

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    Breeman,

    rafale was opposed to the Super Hornet while the gripen was opposed to the hornet. That a totally different generation...

    This is quite a difference in radar, MMI, SA, RCS etc etc perfromance.

    One of the last rafale encounter against the Super Hornet was against the Block2...mind you with AESA and everything !

  4. #694

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    [*******#ff0000]In a recent mock exercise with the U.S. Navy, the French jets "dropped" six F-18 and lost only two aircraft. The U.S. pilots said they could only see the Rafale on the radar when it was too late to react. Now, who needs to act fast is the Brazilian government.[/COLOR]

    As always the "devil" can be in the details??? First, I "assume" the F-18's were Super Hornets and not older Hornets??? Plus, during the ACM were all the aircraft Flying Clean or with External Tanks and Missiles???


    Oh, and what about the ROE???

  5. #695

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    To know the ROE is always better I agree...But if you want to know everything each time you won't debate on anything.

    So it is not perfect as we don't know the ROE, but that is not a reason to dodge the debate.

    If this encounter was totally irrelevant because of execissvely restrictive ROE then that would't be brought as an example in a technical evaluation.
    I bet The FAB has enough experts to understand this problematic.

    I found facinating that each time there is sometning which doesn't fit your opinion then some people will fight to descredit the fact finding all the "what if ?" possibilities. We should take it as it is : not a perfect information as we don't know the ROE but still a valid point as it was taken into account by the FAB.

  6. #696

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scooter2 View Post
    As always the "devil" can be in the details??? First, I "assume" the F-18's were Super Hornets and not older Hornets???
    Actually, the original Hornet is better suited for dogfights than the Super Hornet. It is faster, maintains E better, has faster acceleration and higher turn rates.

    Well, according to the guys that fly them anyways.

  7. #697

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    Quote Originally Posted by tidls View Post
    Actually, the original Hornet is better suited for dogfights than the Super Hornet. It is faster, maintains E better, has faster acceleration and higher turn rates.

    Well, according to the guys that fly them anyways.

    But ths SH is a superior BVR platform as it is relevant in the quoted example...

    I doubt that the SH should waited to come to visual range to detect a rafale. they are certainly talking about BVR...I hope for the SH otherwise I will have doubt over its radar capabilities !

  8. #698

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    Quote Originally Posted by arthuro View Post
    But ths SH is a superior BVR platform as it is relevant in the quoted example...

    I doubt that the SH should waited to come to visual range to detect a rafale. they are certainly talking about BVR...I hope for the SH otherwise I will have doubt over its radar capabilities !
    I'm aware that the Super Hornet is a better machine in BVR compared to the original Hornet. I also believe they're talking BVR. The Rafale is more than a match for the Super Hornet. BVR or WVR.

  9. #699

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    Quote Originally Posted by arthuro View Post
    To know the ROE is always better I agree...But if you want to know everything each time you won't debate on anything.

    So it is not perfect as we don't know the ROE, but that is not a reason to dodge the debate.

    If this encounter was totally irrelevant because of execissvely restrictive ROE then that would't be brought as an example in a technical evaluation.
    I bet The FAB has enough experts to understand this problematic.

    I found facinating that each time there is sometning which doesn't fit your opinion then some people will fight to descredit the fact finding all the "what if ?" possibilities. We should take it as it is : not a perfect information as we don't know the ROE but still a valid point as it was taken into account by the FAB.

    Personally, I doubt most members would consider asking for the ROE or how the aircraft were equipped. As being out of line or unreasonable???

  10. #700
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    Quote Originally Posted by arthuro View Post
    Breeman,

    rafale was opposed to the Super Hornet while the gripen was opposed to the hornet. That a totally different generation...

    This is quite a difference in radar, MMI, SA, RCS etc etc perfromance.

    One of the last rafale encounter against the Super Hornet was against the Block2...mind you with AESA and everything !
    Like I said, nothing but good on Rafale. However in the same way I point out that Gripen has been flying everything from Red Flag Alaska to NATO exercises in Europe. This summer Sweden hosted Loyal Arrow exercise with 8 participating countries and 50 aircrafts (F-15, F-16, F/A-18 etc.).

    That a totally different generation...
    I'm personally not a fan of the idea of calling it generation shifts when it's upgrades within the same plane type. Same mechanisms as in gender shifts, the doctor might shift some parts but the DNA is still there.

  11. #701
    Senior Member Rapier55's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by arthuro View Post
    One of the last rafale encounter against the Super Hornet was against the Block2...mind you with AESA and everything !
    Which encounter was that? The one where the F-18 pilot's radar was almost useless until it was too "late?"

  12. #702
    Senior Member oldsoak's Avatar
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    Spectra ECM is beyond doubt very good - possibly the best in Europe. However, I'm surprised that the US would expose the family jewels to the French as I'm told they are reluctant to use the full range of modes in training with allies. Were'nt they very suspicous of Rafales in red flag - even accusing them of electronically snooping ?
    Also - would the French want to expose their hand ?

  13. #703
    Senior Member Hyde's Avatar
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    ^^ "expose their hand"

    The French have nothing to lose, they have a great fighter which builds on the experience of 50 years in fighter building, it is underestimated at times (I don't even get why) so they have something to prove, their pilots will use the fullest spectrum of the plane and will show that paper-stats are not more important than how the plane acts when in the air. I am in no way surprised that/if the Rafale "owns" every other fighter in the air, if it didn't it would be just as good as the Mirage-2000, but it has to be better, so naturally it will have an upper hand against all planes comparable to the Mirage-2000 and from the same age as the Mirage-2000. They have something to prove and it looks like they do.

  14. #704

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rapier55 View Post
    Which encounter was that? The one where the F-18 pilot's radar was almost useless until it was too "late?"
    The latest reported Block2 vs rafale confrontation was WVR so nothing extraordinnary. Rafale and SH often practise of the french mediteranean coast. french navy has a base in southern france (NÓmes Garon) to meet SH.

    French Rafale on the Teddy" ~ The special report of Rafale M F2's performance during the JTFEX exercise, 2008.

    1. In Page 37, a photo shows a Rafale M of 12F flew with an F/A-18F from the Blacklions Squadron, the first frontline squadron of Superhornet Block II.


    2. Rafale M F2 met with F/A-18E/F in several 1 v 1 BFM and 2 v 2 AA missions during the exercise. However, both sides didn't show their real and complete fighting capability to each other ~ US pilots didn't show the true capability of JHMCS + AIM-9X to French pilots, while 12F was also shy about showing the real capabilities of RBE2 radar, Spectra EWS, and FSO optronic systems.


    3. A USN pilot's (Lt Mike Tremel, pilot of VFA-31 "Tomcatters") comments for Rafale M:

    "A highly maneuverable fighter with an incredible capacity to point its nose in every direction in the sky."

    "The French pilots seem to be happy to its flight performance and its modern cockpit design".

    When asked if he would like to swap his Super hornet to a Rafale --> "No, I love my Super Bug way too much...."


    4. A French pilot's (pilot of 12F) comments for F/A-18E:

    "A great bombing aircraft, but not a fighter for dogfighting."

    "Its acceleration capability in the high angle of incidence is not good."

    "Rafale is definitely the more nimble one."

    "However, F/A-18E has already equipped the JHMCS + AIM-9X, a combination of decisive edge in close-range encounters ~ Although the tactics to counter it have existed now."

  15. #705
    Senior Member oldsoak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MareCar View Post
    ^^ "expose their hand"

    The French have nothing to lose, they have a great fighter which builds on the experience of 50 years in fighter building, it is underestimated at times (I don't even get why) so they have something to prove, their pilots will use the fullest spectrum of the plane and will show that paper-stats are not more important than how the plane acts when in the air. I am in no way surprised that/if the Rafale "owns" every other fighter in the air, if it didn't it would be just as good as the Mirage-2000, but it has to be better, so naturally it will have an upper hand against all planes comparable to the Mirage-2000 and from the same age as the Mirage-2000. They have something to prove and it looks like they do.
    - because ECM is exceptionally sensitive ? It is one of the things whose real capability you just dont expose on training missions with foreign aircraft ( apart from a training mode ) - and certainly not to commercial rivals !

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