Indian T-90 Tanks Struggle in Summer Desert Heat

[Adux]

I think our Jaopanese friend mean that "cheap" military equipment as T-90 = crap
No wonder if you read how much Japanese military pay for the toys. Japanese version of F-16 cost almost like F-22. For the price of one of their tanks Russian would be able to build 3 or more tanks...

I wonder how much would cost version of T-90 produced in Japan?...

[GazB]

If you go back to the Soviet Union, and understand why it collapsed.

Economic and political isolation from pretty much any country that actually had money and a huge number of basket case countries that relied on the birthplace of communism for what was largely a hand out. Most arms exports by the Soviet Union were at cost or below cost... or simply free. Many were covered by loans with no interest and no term limitations.
A great way to win friends amongst the poor, but not good business.

Do you know HOW MUCH network warfare has changed in the past 10-12 years.

The Soviets pretty much invented net warfare with their large antiship missiles. Weapons like Granit, Moskit, and Onyx were all designed to accept initial data from a satellite based radar system. They were launched from submerged subs, and surface ships at targets 300-500km distant. The missiles operated in a pack where one missile would climb as it approached the target area to detect what vessels were in the target group. It would then drop down and transmit by datalink to the other missiles in the attack (up to 24 in each pack) where each target was and based on the targets signature determine the vessels type... ie carrier or cruiser or destroyer etc and allocate a specific number of missiles to attack each particular target. Each missile will then manouver to head towards its own target. If the main missile is hit after it climbs another missile adopts its lead missile role and manages the attack. The satellite datalink can be used to send data on the target group to the launch platform to determine how effective the attack was and which targets survived.

NO, Russia will not repeat the mistakes of Soviet Union, as it should not.

What Russia is basically doing is offering full customisation to its best customer. The Russians couldn't sell the Indians the Onyx. Its range is too great. It developed the Yakhont specifically for the purpose of export.
The Indians however don't just want to buy stuff off the shelf... they want to invest in their own industries even though it means things cost a little more they are investing in technology in their own country.
It is something that Russia is prepared to do... and something the US clearly is not. Not even the UK will be given the source code for the F-35s they will be buying for example. That means if the UK want to integrate a British weapon into their F-35s they need to get the Americans to do it for them. Brimstone, Meteor, ALARM, etc will all need to be handed over to the US (ie codes and all) so the Americans can fully integrate these weapons into the F-35s avionics. No doubt the Americans will charge for this too.

Russia needs India, which is cemented by the fact they called India for GLONASS(already a partner), for PAK-FA, MBT and what all not.

The Indians are not stupid and certainly contribute more than just money, but at the end of the day the purpose of the joint development for the Russian side is because India is a customer and that is how they want to deal with Russia. The PAK-FA the Russians put into service will have little to do with the PAK-FA the Indians put into service. The Indian PAK-FA will likely take much longer simply because of the way the Indians do things and all the integration of bits and pieces that were not originally designed to go into the PAK-FA. (As opposed to the Russian components going into the PAK-FA that were intended when development started that they would be for the PAK-FA).
This MBT is actually the T-95 and has been in development for almost as long as the replacement for the Flanker has been in development. The design is pretty much done and now they want a market so they can set up production for domestic and export so they have enough orders for tanks to make it more profitable.
The Indians have just ordered a large number of T-90s but the Russian Army hasn't. Perhaps instead of buying a whole lot of T-90s they might just buy a lot of T-95s.
Getting the Indians on board with the new generation tank makes sense for the Russian company and for the Indians, but if the Indians said no the Russians wouldn't suddenly buy Abrams or Challangers.

I wonder how much would cost version of T-90 produced in Japan?...

They are only guilty of what India is largely trying to do. Support their local industry/tech.

[Scar79]

No it wasnt, It was not a revolutionary project. Yet it was important as it laid the foundations, and in the future weapons cannot be produced by a single country. If you go back to the Soviet Union, and understand why it collapsed.

Wow, do you want to tell me about the reasons of collapse of my country? Please, make the difference between the situation in SU, when we wasted about 30% of our budget on the cold war.(even in nowdays nobody knows how much it was, precisely) and situation in modern Russia, when we are spend about only 10% of all budget, with proficiency ~$30 billions!

So please, don't tell me about SU and Russia. I never believe in fact that we can't spend some moneys on our own hi-tech and defence industries, and especially on priority projects, like PAK FA or hypersonic ASM. But instead of support our own industry our government spend our money for purchase Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac obligations. Nice job, idiots, nice job.

All features of so many weapons were similar to its predcessor that doesnt make it the same. Onyx was capable to be launched from an aircraft? Really. A Land versions was there?

Photos and schemes from the early-early 90's:

Su-32/34


RuAF Su-33


Same exposition


Air launched Yakhont from late 90's


Veeery old picture of the land based variant.


So Brahmos is nothing more, than repeating of existent russian systems and plans. But in the sight of that fact that our officials hasn't enough brains to spend 0,00001% of our budget and put these unique products on the market for money-making. Finally, our officials are very liked the new Maybach, Rolls-Roys and "dacha", so we was in need to make a "co-development project"(c) with your country. Smart move for India, bad deal for us.

It is there for the Brahmos. Do you know HOW MUCH network warfare has changed in the past 10-12 years.

Didn't get it again. What relations between "network warfare" and Brahmos project. Smart words for the smart face?

It can, So can India. but it doesnt make sense.

Sorry, but how said one man from our defence industry. "Oh yes, indians so very long time wants to develop them own fighter, tank, engine...but they want all of this last 20 years, and they'll want him next 20 years". This is sad, but this is fact.

NO, Russia will not repeat the mistakes of Soviet Union, as it should not.

As i said - this situation has nothing similar with SU.

There were quite lot of soft technologies India gained from its allainces with Israel and France. Indians are not some sloths in Electronics and Software.

The same man's words - "Indians are very good in soft market, but you must realize that development of the civil products for Windows and development of products for warfare systems it's two different story". And i agreed with him, because i remember the story with ASM Club and Kilo-sub - all problems was from indians hard/software. Sorry, man.

Bull crap, Indians are one of the major communities in every major US projects, in NASA and the US software industry is filled with Indians. Nobody in the right mind will call the Indians stupid atleast in the scientific field, I might agree with you in the political field.

Agreed. But listen, in this world people prefer to look at your real products, than to quantity of your people, who worked in NASA etc.

Russia needs India, which is cemented by the fact they called India for GLONASS(already a partner), for PAK-FA, MBT and what all not. We didnt have money before to put our talents who are recurited by the best western companies, now we have. India has its own strategic missiles, is privy to high-tech products from france, Israel, Russia, Germany and Britain; And you think they wouldnt have learned anything from that in the past 60 years. really?

Sorry, but this is not Russia needs. It's needs of India(for technologies) and some fcking officials in our government(for bribes). Russia has A LOT of money and can spend them in our own economy without any fears about "Holland disease", becuase this long investments.

In the end of debate, listen to me. Your country hasn't some technologies and experience, for a while. But you have smart and fair politicians, wanting, and people, who smart enough. This is very good capital. In Russia we haven't, at least, first thing, and many people from our defence industry has very sad point of view on our future in such situation. Very sad.

[InetWarrior]

They are only guilty of what India is largely trying to do. Support their local industry/tech.

For what price? Buying overpriced products its not a support but stupidity,,,

Its like saying that Pentagon buying hammers fo 400 USD was guilty only of supporting their local industry/tech.

[Adux]

Economic and political isolation from pretty much any country that actually had money and a huge number of basket case countries that relied on the birthplace of communism for what was largely a hand out. Most arms exports by the Soviet Union were at cost or below cost... or simply free. Many were covered by loans with no interest and no term limitations.


A great way to win friends amongst the poor, but not good business

Not defending that, Expenses when not met with adequate Income is not good, SU collapsed for a multitude of reasons, one of them being expenses on the military

The Soviets pretty much invented net warfare with their large antiship missiles. Weapons like Granit, Moskit, and Onyx were all designed to accept initial data from a satellite based radar system. They were launched from submerged subs, and surface ships at targets 300-500km distant. The missiles operated in a pack where one missile would climb as it approached the target area to detect what vessels were in the target group. It would then drop down and transmit by datalink to the other missiles in the attack (up to 24 in each pack) where each target was and based on the targets signature determine the vessels type... ie carrier or cruiser or destroyer etc and allocate a specific number of missiles to attack each particular target. Each missile will then manouver to head towards its own target. If the main missile is hit after it climbs another missile adopts its lead missile role and manages the attack. The satellite datalink can be used to send data on the target group to the launch platform to determine how effective the attack was and which targets survived.

Again, I am not saying that SU did not do it, or Russia hasnt got the capacity, but how much times have changed, how much technology has changed, and how much India has increased its presence of this field.

What Russia is basically doing is offering full customisation to its best customer. The Russians couldn't sell the Indians the Onyx. Its range is too great. It developed the Yakhont specifically for the purpose of export.
The Indians however don't just want to buy stuff off the shelf... they want to invest in their own industries even though it means things cost a little more they are investing in technology in their own country.
It is something that Russia is prepared to do... and something the US clearly is not. Not even the UK will be given the source code for the F-35s they will be buying for example. That means if the UK want to integrate a British weapon into their F-35s they need to get the Americans to do it for them. Brimstone, Meteor, ALARM, etc will all need to be handed over to the US (ie codes and all) so the Americans can fully integrate these weapons into the F-35s avionics. No doubt the Americans will charge for this too.

Russia is a friend, I dont think US will give any country a LA Class Nuclear Sub, while Russia will give to India an Akula-2. That said, India is not some Arab country with no technical or educational base; nor are they now without money or zeal. I was only responding to his condecending manner.

The Indians are not stupid and certainly contribute more than just money, but at the end of the day the purpose of the joint development for the Russian side is because India is a customer and that is how they want to deal with Russia. The PAK-FA the Russians put into service will have little to do with the PAK-FA the Indians put into service. The Indian PAK-FA will likely take much longer simply because of the way the Indians do things and all the integration of bits and pieces that were not originally designed to go into the PAK-FA. (As opposed to the Russian components going into the PAK-FA that were intended when development started that they would be for the PAK-FA).

I have read about it, Though i still believe Russians have already frozen designs and will do the major work(Indians are still in nacent stage here); Russians prefer single seater, while the Indians prefer dual seater.

This MBT is actually the T-95 and has been in development for almost as long as the replacement for the Flanker has been in development. The design is pretty much done and now they want a market so they can set up production for domestic and export so they have enough orders for tanks to make it more profitable.

I am not so convinced about the project, as it is a late 80's project and has not incorporated a lot of new lessons from chechnya, Iraq and GW1. I will find it funny if it is above 54 tons and how Indian Army is going to justify it.

The Indians have just ordered a large number of T-90s but the Russian Army hasn't. Perhaps instead of buying a whole lot of T-90s they might just buy a lot of T-95s.

Threat perceptions. Indians as early as 1999 was in a war, with 2001 had India-Pakistan stand off. India need a lot of tanks, FAST. Russia provided it.

Getting the Indians on board with the new generation tank makes sense for the Russian company and for the Indians, but if the Indians said no the Russians wouldn't suddenly buy Abrams or Challangers.

True. But it is important for India and Russia to buck up their game.

They are only guilty of what India is largely trying to do. Support their local industry/tech.

Yes, but belittling them is not going to help.

[MG 3]

Usually Indian tanks face service for 30 years with mid-life upgrade. With the Thar Desert and wargames throughout the year. It is nearly dead by 30 years. Anyways T-90S was short gap fix. India is interested in future MBT concept.

Dont know much about this but didn't the Indian army decide to bring it down to 20 years since we are planning to do the same.

You are right those conditions sure take their toll on the equipment.

[Adux]

Wow, do you want to tell me about the reasons of collapse of my country? Please, make the difference between the situation in SU, when we wasted about 30% of our budget on the cold war.(even in nowdays nobody knows how much it was, precisely) and situation in modern Russia, when we are spend about only 10% of all budget, with proficiency ~$30 billions!

It seems I know better than you.

So please, don't tell me about SU and Russia. I never believe in fact that we can't spend some moneys on our own hi-tech and defence industries, and especially on priority projects, like PAK FA or hypersonic ASM. But instead of support our own industry our government spend our money for purchase Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac obligations. Nice job, idiots, nice job.

huh?

Photos and schemes from the early-early 90's:

Su-32/34


RuAF Su-33


Same exposition


Air launched Yakhont from late 90's


Veeery old picture of the land based variant.

This is the basis, but there was no adequate testing or isnt even the same, If I were you, listen to GazB, he knows a bit more than you.

So Brahmos is nothing more, than repeating of existent russian systems and plans. But in the sight of that fact that our officials hasn't enough brains to spend 0,00001% of our budget and put these unique products on the market for money-making. Finally, our officials are very liked the new Maybach, Rolls-Roys and "dacha", so we was in need to make a "co-development project"(c) with your country. Smart move for India, bad deal for us.

When was Brahmos called unique for being a Onyx. It was called unique for being what it is.

Didn't get it again. What relations between "network warfare" and Brahmos project. Smart words for the smart face?

See, I knew you couldnt get it. Work at it.

Sorry, but how said one man from our defence industry. "Oh yes, indians so very long time wants to develop them own fighter, tank, engine...but they want all of this last 20 years, and they'll want him next 20 years". This is sad, but this is fact.

Do you know what India had 20 years back, What INDIA is NOW. The whole snake charmer argument, funny, actually insulting. Dear Sir,
Today we are a TRILLION dollar economy, do you know what we were 20 years ago. That is NOT TODAY.

The same man's words - "Indians are very good in soft market, but you must realize that development of the civil products for Windows and development of products for warfare systems it's two different story". And i agreed with him, because i remember the story with ASM Club and Kilo-sub - all problems was from indians hard/software. Sorry, man.

Now you are being idiotic, The Klub integration in Kilo was completed and I repeat completed DONE by the Russians, It was a Russian Project done in RUSSIA. it had NO INDIAN input in it.

Agreed. But listen, in this world people prefer to look at your real products, than to quantity of your people, who worked in NASA etc.

NASA etc are not some 3rd rate organization, those are the people who graduated from our IIM's and IIT's. In your spare time check out what that is.

Sorry, but this is not Russia needs. It's needs of India(for technologies) and some fcking officials in our government(for bribes). Russia has A LOT of money and can spend them in our own economy without any fears about "Holland disease", becuase this long investments.

You still dont have the money for your aspirations and threat perceptions. that is fact. Russian government understands that quite well.

In the end of debate, listen to me. Your country hasn't some technologies and experience, for a while. But you have smart and fair politicians, wanting, and people, who smart enough. This is very good capital. In Russia we haven't, at least, first thing, and many people from our defence industry has very sad point of view on our future in such situation. Very sad.

Indian politicans are SMART? Really, they are dumbheads as far as I am aware.

[KuroiRyu]

Usually Indian tanks face service for 30 years with mid-life upgrade.It is nearly dead by 30 years.

This mean quite sure that the T-90S with some more upgrades much probably it will still be the M.B.T. of the Indian armored divisions until 2030, like 10 years ago was still that crap T-72M1/Ajeya. I will be pretty worried about them, most probably at that time Pakistan will have thousands of Al Khalid 2 and may be Ukrainians (KMDB is producing outstandings upraged for the old soviet tanks, T-55AGM, T-64BM, T-72MP, and T-80UD also for the Pakistan market) and Chinese new tanks (Type 96G). For not say about the rest of the world...so India most probably will still have a gap with the loved neighbour.

India is interested in future MBT concept.

"Yeah sure a tank that also Russian authorities said it will be produced in not big numbers. Most probably the next T- will be like the T-64, so a tank with new meaningful improvements but that the production will be limited. And India will receive again the crap export version.
Cuz the Kremlin really is interested in the safeguard of the Indian people...

[Adux]

"Yeah sure a tank that also Russian authorities said it will be produced in not big numbers. Most probably the next T- will be like the T-64, so a tank with new meaningful improvements but that the production will be limited. And India will receive again the crap export version.
Cuz the Kremlin really is interested in the safeguard of the Indian people...

Do you know what version India gets from Russia. India unlike anyother country for Russia is not 'just another' country. I humbly suggest you read up on Indo-Russian relations.

[Adux]

Al-Khalid 2,.....lol; You mean the design rejected by the PLA!! Oh yes, we are scared ****less. It is the T-80UD which is considered the threat.

[KuroiRyu]

India unlike anyother country for Russia is not 'just another' country.

At the time of the U.S.S.R. India was a normal client that you easily can put together with Syria, Iraq, Angola. At that time, in the 1980's India didn't receive nothing of outstanding Soviet hardware(T-80U, S-300PU, TOR-M1, Tunguska M1, Su-27, Tu-22M3, Tu-160 and go forward...) but normal stuff such T-72M1, ZSU-23-4 Shilka, MiG-21 versions, MiG-23 versions, MiG-27 versions...so India until 1991 was nothing and at the same time just a strategic client for counter the Pakistan threath (related Soviet-Afghan war and Pakistani-U.S. relations)

In the 1990's indeed India become a first client together with the P.R.C. but this only because India needed hardware and Russia money. Today the situation is still similar with India that need last generation hardware for counter future threats and the Kremlin need just money for build totally new armed forces for 2025-2030 with all the soviet equipment replaced by future hardware such stealth technology for 5th generation fighters, latest missile technologies, latest land warfare hardware as well as for the navy for new aircraft carriers, battlecruisers...

So what is doing now the Kremlin is just because need $ for finance the Armed Forces, India is a normal customer such Venezuela or P.R.C. nothing more.

[KuroiRyu]

Al Khalid is a good tank for sure better than that Arjun crap of 30 years of devolopment.

Related to the Al Khalid 2, will have nothing in connections with the P.L.A. It will be a heavy improvements of the Al Khalid and will enter in service in huge numbers from 2012-2015. Pakistan will have a huge and powerful land forces indeed.

[Scar79]

It seems I know better than you.

Lol. So prove it. I want to see the facts that prove that situation in SU and Russia are the same.

huh?

Want to say something else?

This is the basis, but there was no adequate testing or isnt even the same, If I were you, listen to GazB, he knows a bit more than you.

So GazB and you may to tell your stories about "co-development projects" to guys with nicks Vov Keen and Muxel on http://forums.***base.ru. They are both from the NPOmash and involved in such projects like hypersonic Granit and Brahmos. And yes, there will be the new hypersonic Granit....only question - for what country.

When was Brahmos called unique for being a Onyx. It was called unique for being what it is.

So, for what was this cooperation? I can understand if we talking about projects which cost a many billions of dollars...but this - too simple and too cheap. We don't need any cooperations for making just another routine modernization of Onyx.

See, I knew you couldnt get it. Work at it.

...and you so far from our reality and so naive - however, like me too many years ago. Work at it.

Do you know what India had 20 years back, What INDIA is NOW. The whole snake charmer argument, funny, actually insulting. Dear Sir,
Today we are a TRILLION dollar economy, do you know what we were 20 years ago. That is NOT TODAY.

Just a word of man who knows what he talking about. He's not just a guy from another forum.

Now you are being idiotic, The Klub integration in Kilo was completed and I repeat completed DONE by the Russians, It was a Russian Project done in RUSSIA. it had NO INDIAN input in it.

You must to know that two last export Kilo for India contains some indians blocks, which made some troubles in fire tests of the Club.

"Если коротко - на двух крайних лодках (S55 INS Sindhugosh и S62 INS Sindhuvijay) вместо модернизированного российского оборудования устанавливается индийский пакет под названием Panchendriya, которая состоит из сонара USHUS, сопряженной с ним системой управления оружием и системы связи CCS-MK. Кроме того, в 2006 году Индия в добавок к 3М54 закупили и 3М14. Судя по заявлениям именно 3М14 не сопрягается с этой самой Панчендрией (имечко соответственное). Что не удивительно, именно из-за сбоя сонара Синдхугош только что себе рубку об НК снёс. В общем, история очень похожа с 11356 - индусы ставят свою хрень, а потом жутко удивляется почему ничего не работает. Курс по ЭМС у них в ВУЗах явно не читают...

http://forums.airbase.ru/2008/01/t59....html#p1397629

NASA etc are not some 3rd rate organization, those are the people who graduated from our IIM's and IIT's. In your spare time check out what that is.

"Nothing else matters" (c) but only the final result/product.

You still dont have the money for your aspirations and threat perceptions. that is fact. Russian government understands that quite well.

Russian government buys these beauties for the last clerk...so what about our "aspirations"?

Indian politicans are SMART? Really, they are dumbheads as far as I am aware.

Noone is ideal, but yours far smarter than my.

[Flyboy77]

I know it's a bit off topic but can anyone tell me why India didn’t buy Arena E and the Shtora active protection system with their T-90s?

[drunken sailor]

I saw a show all about the Abrams M1 yesterday and one gunner was saying even those guys were sweating in the tanks because of the heat in Iraq. I guess thats because that turbine puts out exhaust temps of 1500 degrees. He said that he himself went without a real shower for 42 days durring the invasion of Iraq.

I cant even imagine that, I have went three days without one on a winter time hunting trip and that was long enough for me.