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Thread: Tavor vs. XM8

  1. #31
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    can u plesae explain why the reloads are slower?
    cheers

  2. #32
    Senior Member Sayeret's Avatar
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    IMI Tavor assault rifle has been selected as the future weapon for Israel Defense Forces infantry units. For several years the IDF evaluated the Tavor against the M-16 M4. The two weapons recently completed extensive field evaluations with special forces as well elite infantry units, such as the Givati Brigade. Following the conclusion of these tests, the IDF made its decision. The evaluations were very positive and overall, Tavor proved to be significantly more accurate and reliable compared to the M4, and became the favorable sidearm by the majority of the infantrymen participated in the tests. The weapon proved to be more comfortable to operate, and more accurate in instinctive fire, as the natural carrying position – an inherent advantage of the rear center of gravity, derived by the compact bull-pup design.
    Due to budget constraints and large quantities of M-16 and M-16A2 which are already in its inventory, the IDF is expected to order only thousands of rifles per year, however, according to IMI, the importance of the decision is the recognition in the quality and superiority of the new Israeli weapon, to promote export sales. IMI believes that Tavor will soon take its place as a leading brand in the world market, similar to the ubiquitous Uzi, IMI produced in the 1950s.

  3. #33
    mp.net numba wan Chinaman SMGLee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dannyc
    can u plesae explain why the reloads are slower?
    cheers
    For XM8, you tap down with your trigger finger on the mag release located in front of the trigger guard. the mag will fall free. at the same time a new mag is inserted and the bolt is released by a lever on the inside front portion of the trigger guard. I am not too excited about all the controls on the inside of the trigger guard. potential for AD.

    M4 is about the same, trigger finger to release the mag button located on the right side of the receiver. insert new mag, release the bolt with your left hand slapping down on the bolt release located on the left side of the receiver. I my opinion the M16/M4 system has the best egronomics of any assault rifle on the market.

    For the Bullpup, you will have to release the magazine with your left hand, insert the magazine with your left hand and release the bolt with your left hand. I have seen Tavor rep releasing the magazine with their new mag by tappin the mag release located in the front of the mag well. insert a new mag and charge the gun in a pretty fast fashion. but with a timer, a M4 reload is always faster by a 1/2 to one second. which in CQB action it is a life time.

  4. #34
    mp.net numba wan Chinaman SMGLee's Avatar
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    Again, i don't discount the Tavor, i have never seen IMI came out with a bad gun. I love the UZI, Galil AR/SAR and also I think the Tavor is a good platform. I just like the M8 to be a better platform.

  5. #35
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    Looks like the soldiers like the XM-8 and thought this was relevant:

    New firearms are light and deadly


    By Justin Willett
    Staff writer

    Staff Sgt. Jose Rosales knows what it's like to have a rifle jam during a firefight.

    During his time in Afghanistan, and most recently in Iraq, it happened many times with his M-4 rifle.

    "If you get any dirt or anything in the M-4, it's going to jam on you and cause a misfire, and then the enemy has the advantage," he said Tuesday afternoon at Fort Bragg's Range 44.

    Rosales, who is with the 307th Engineer Battalion, was one of dozens of 18th Airborne Corps master gunners getting a chance to test fire the M-4's expected replacement, the XM-8.

    Rosales said the XM-8 is lighter, more versatile, more durable and, because it's a "closed system," shouldn't jam like the M-4.

    Jose Gordon of Heckler & Koch USA, the gun's maker, demonstrated this last fact when he buried an XM-8 in Fort Bragg's red dust and then fired it.

    "It looks like it's from the future, but it's a weapon we're going to need," Rosales said.

    "Basically, it's going to save lives because the weapon's not going to misfire and jam on you."

    Representatives of Heckler & Koch USA and the Army's Program Executive Office Soldier were at Fort Bragg Tuesday and will return today to give soldiers a chance to fire the XM-8 and an experimental hybrid machine gun and give their feedback.

    The representatives have traveled to Fort Stewart, Ga., and Fort Campbell, Ky., to let troops get a feel for the weapons.

    Col. Michael J. Smith is the small arms project manager for the Army's Program Executive Office Soldier at Fort Belvior, Va. He said the office, called Team Soldier, is responsible for developing, producing, fielding and sustaining everything that the soldier wears, carries and operates.

    Part of its charge is seeing these new weapons into the hands of soldiers.


    Rave reviews

    The XM-8 won rave reviews from the Fort Bragg gunners. In addition to being virtually jam-proof, it has a modular design that allows it to be four guns in one.

    With attachments, it can go from a compact rifle with a 9-inch barrel for close combat shooting to a sharpshooter rifle with a 20-inch barrel for 600-meter range.

    It costs less than an M-4, is lighter and is capable of firing 20,000 rounds without malfunctions.

    The XM-307/312 hybrid machine gun also drew praise.

    It has five changeable parts, which allows it to be switched from a 25 mm crew-served machine gun to a .50-caliber machine gun in less than three minutes.

    It is meant to replace the M-2 .50-caliber gun, which was first fielded in 1917, and the MK-19 grenade launcher.

    Lt. Col. Rob Carpenter, Team Soldier's project manager for crew-served weapons, said the XM-312, which is the .50-caliber machine gun, is about 80 pounds lighter than the M-2. It has virtually no recoil, unlike the M-2.

    The XM-307, while also lighter than the weapon it is meant to replace, is being designed to shoot "air burst" ammunition, which will allow soldiers to rain shrapnel on enemy positions.

    The new hybrid machine gun could be available as soon as 2006. It would cost about $4,000 more than either the M-2 or the MK-19 but would be lighter and more deadly.

    Carpenter said that's the whole point.

    "This is the guy you see on TV every night walking through Baghdad," he said of the soldiers the new weapons are intended to help. "We're trying to make him more lethal, the guy who is there every day."
    http://www.fayettevillenc.com/story....&Story=6395611

  6. #36
    Member vitiaz's Avatar
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    "can u plesae explain why the reloads are slower? "

    Thanks SMG...

    DannyG:

    One more thing about bullpups with the reload. Since the magwell is closer to your body the chance of getting the mag hung up in your gear is greatly increased.

    I love the balance and compactness of bullpups but other features(like reloading erognomics) have to be considered. If they had a mag release where you didn't have to reposition your firing hand would be an improvement(never fired a Tavor or CR-21) but one would still have to worry about how close the magwell is to your body. Think about if you are
    'geared-up' and in the ****e position...with a 30-rounder you would probably have to roll onto your back in order to do the reload.

    Just more $0.02 worth...

  7. #37
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    I've never used a bullpup, but from what I heard bull-pups are hard to transition to. On the other hand, people that are trained to use a bull-pup rifle from the beginning find it very easy and natural to operate.

    And what's so bad about an "explosion close to your cheek"? The bolt is located close to the shooter's face in ANY modern rifle - it doesn't matter that much.

  8. #38
    Member vitiaz's Avatar
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    Extra,
    "The bolt is located close to the shooter's face in ANY modern rifle - it doesn't matter that much."

    IMHO, it does matter.

    Not the bolt, the chamber.

    Usually when there is a catastrophic failure in a moden rifle the debris is blown out the chamber and magwell. Most of these failures are ammunitoin induced.Barrel failures usually occur just forward of where the barrel is connected to the receiver. In some cases you could get a round detonated while the bolt is 'out of battery' ...but those are rare. In a bullpup design both of these failure areas are put next to your face(and throat). In a "normal" rifle these areas are out in front of the shooter where there is the rear of the receiver & buttstock to offer some protection.

    "And what's so bad about an "explosion close to your cheek"? "

    Well, the normal pressures are something on the order of 50,000 psi. The shrapnel created by the metal, plastic or wood will be like a small grenade.

    Failures such as these are rare with factory ammunition and properly maintained rifles...all I am saying is when it DOES happen it is worse for a bullpup than with a conventional rifle.

  9. #39
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    Vitiaz:

    You raise an interesting point.

    Do you have any statistics on catastrophic rifle failures? Specifically, on injuries realted to them?

    Coz I was under the impression that a catastrophic failure like that always causes grave injury to the operator.

  10. #40
    Milo Drinker of Death Flagg's Avatar
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    One more thing about bullpups with the reload. Since the magwell is closer to your body the chance of getting the mag hung up in your gear is greatly increased.
    I have two different sets of webbing, neither of which has ever been caught by my Steyr's mag

    I love the balance and compactness of bullpups but other features(like reloading erognomics) have to be considered. If they had a mag release where you didn't have to reposition your firing hand would be an improvement(never fired a Tavor or CR-21) but one would still have to worry about how close the magwell is to your body.
    My right(firing) hand NEVER leaves the pistol grip when reloading

    Think about if you are
    'geared-up' and in the ****e position...with a 30-rounder you would probably have to roll onto your back in order to do the reload.
    Nope....quite easy in the ****e position....typically I'll roll the Steyr about 45 degrees to the right for a mag change while keeping it aimed in the direction of my target

    Comfortable, quick, easy

  11. #41
    Milo Drinker of Death Flagg's Avatar
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    "And what's so bad about an "explosion close to your cheek"? "

    Well, the normal pressures are something on the order of 50,000 psi. The shrapnel created by the metal, plastic or wood will be like a small grenade.

    Failures such as these are rare with factory ammunition and properly maintained rifles...all I am saying is when it DOES happen it is worse for a bullpup than with a conventional rifle.
    As a regular user of a bullpup rifle(Steyr) I'm wondering if this is actually true.

    My biggest injury concern when field training both with and without firearms is protecting my eyes....most other bits and pieces can be fixed and will not result in a huge sensory loss.

    I'm trying to recall my dominant eye position in relation to the Steyr, AR, and AK series of rifles while in a proper weld.....without having all three in front of me for comparison and going on memory I think I'll disagree.

    I'm thinking a detonation in an AK or AR could potentially cause more eye damage as it would likely be in direct line of sight with my dominant eye...whereas with the Steyr it would be below and slightly behind my eye.

    Anyone disagree?

  12. #42
    Member pretorian669's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vitiaz
    If they had a mag release where you didn't have to reposition your firing hand would be an improvement
    On the latest version it is solved.The orange colored button is the mag release...







  13. #43
    Member vitiaz's Avatar
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    "On the latest version it is solved.The orange colored button is the mag release... "

    Someone has been doing their homework. Nice weapon...wish I had one. :P Thanks Pre.

    "Nope....quite easy in the ****e position....typically I'll roll the Steyr about 45 degrees to the right for a mag change while keeping it aimed in the direction of my target"

    Maybe us 'ol' fat guys' have to roll further... or practice more.

    Thanks for the tip Flagg.

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by pretorian669
    Quote Originally Posted by vitiaz
    If they had a mag release where you didn't have to reposition your firing hand would be an improvement
    On the latest version it is solved.The orange colored button is the mag release...






    just a question but does any one have any idea how they managed to get the mag release so far forward of the mag?

  15. #45
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    I think that they done it just like they (misterious "they" again) managed to get trigger so far from bolt, firing pin and shell.

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