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Thread: Chechen Genocide, Very brutal stuff

  1. #1

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    Have Russian forces comitted "war crimes" during the war?

  2. #2
    Senior Member RavenW's Avatar
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    In a Ruined City, Even the Rubble Is Taken From Them
    By SETH MYDANS
    The New York Times

    Published: June 1, 2004


    GROZNY, Russia - There is one green poplar in the row of dead and brittle trees that line a shattered building here, and by coincidence it stands at the only doorway that is not in ruins.

    Both have been preserved by some mystery of nature through 10 years of war that have left behind a neighborhood of bombed and uninhabitable piles of brick.

    On a bench near the doorway sit some of the women who live here, cracked and chipped by the rough handling of life, warming themselves in the pale sunlight of another spring.

    Their main achievement, and still their main pursuit, is that they have stayed alive here in Chechnya through war and cold and hunger and illness, pulling one another along if any lagged behind.

    "Nobody else cares about us," said Alla Kharlamova, 60, hovering between tears and anger. "We simply exist."

    Her neighbor Viktoria Kuradjan, 76, a tiny woman bent by age like a crooked finger, contributed a sigh, "Hoo, hoo, hoo."

    Now the nine women and the two mild and quiet men who live inside with them face a new threat that could cost them their livelihood and even their home.

    Thieves have been carting away their bricks.

    Having lost everything else, this little group of mismatched neighbors is living off the rubble that has collapsed around them, cleaning and selling the bricks, one by one.

    A new breed of entrepreneur, the brick dealer, has emerged in Grozny, buying up good quality bricks like theirs for a ruble apiece, or about three cents.

    At that rate, nine bricks will buy a loaf of bread. Eighteen bricks will buy a dozen eggs. Twenty-five bricks will buy a carton of pasteurized milk. Ten bricks will pay for the bus ride to and from the market.

    "Ten rubles," Ms. Kuradjan said. "That's very big money. For me, even one is a lot."

    Rubble is now the main natural resource of this battered city, including the remains of the oil refinery and factories that flourished here before the war. An iron beam can pay to fix a leaking roof. Children search the ground as they walk, looking for bits of metal.

    Once, a brick dealer with a truck bought 1,600 bricks from the women who live here - a moment they still describe with wonder.

    More often, though, robbers carry off their bricks at night.

    "We say, 'Don't take them! This is our building,' " Ms. Kharlamova said. "But they take them anyway."

    A small, trembling woman in rubber boots and a head scarf, she sometimes stands sentry over the bricks as if that could make a difference.

    "They threaten me," she said. "They told me, 'Look out, or you'll find your head in a tree.' "

    Larisa Abdurahmanova, 40, a former nurse, once took an iron bar and a bottle of vinegar, the only weapons at hand, and chased away a group of robbers.

    " 'You old grannies don't need anything, but we need the money,' " she said they told her. "I stood in front of them and said, 'Shoot me!' "

    Not long ago a paramilitary group known for kidnapping and torture wanted to take possession of a basement at the far end of the broken building.

    "I thought, 'What do they want a basement for?' No! No way," Ms. Abdurahmanova said. She said she told the men, "Over my dead body," and they backed off, hauling away some bricks as they went.

    By truckload and wheelbarrow, the ruined building where this group lives is growing smaller.

    "One day a woman came with a folder of papers and very officially said, 'Get out. We are knocking down your home,' " Ms. Abdurahmanova said. "We said, 'Where are we supposed to go?' She said, 'I have no idea.' "

    At this point, half of the building's 36 apartments have been demolished and more may follow.

    If they are forced to move, the little family here will leave behind the grave of a man named Viktor Marsak, one neighbor who did not survive the war.

    "He died of cold and hunger, even though I gave him the same as I gave myself," Ms. Abdurahmanova said, wiping her eyes. "He always said, 'I'm helpless, Larisa, help me.' I wanted to bury him with his mother but it was too dangerous to go around and look for her grave in the cemeteries."

    Once, when the fighting was heavy, they took in a neighbor who was almost blind.

    "We cut wood for a fire and melted snow for water," Ms. Abdurahmanova said. "The wind was blowing through the window. Then there was shooting. We didn't know what to do. We hugged each other. I fainted."

    Soldiers came and aimed their guns at the blind man. "Stop!" the women shouted. "He's blind!"

    As the soldiers took him away to a hospital, Ms. Abdurahmanova said, he called back to her, "Larechka, my little daughter, when I can see again I'll look for you."

    Last winter, the struggle to keep living became too much for Ms. Kharlamova and she decided to die. Her neighbors banged on her door and shouted.

    "Alla, open up!"

    "No, I won't open."

    In the end, she accepted a glass of honey and milk.

    "I have allergies," she explained. "It's hard to breathe."

    Now a new stray has come to join the clan, Yaha Gaziyeva, who was abandoned by her husband three years ago along with her daughter, Diana, who is now 8.

    Since then, mother and daughter had been supporting themselves by foraging for bricks and scrap on the territory of the ruined oil refinery.

    Diana, a beautiful girl with steady, wide-set eyes, is sick. Her blond hair is turning gray and there are strange blotches on her skin that darken in sunlight. Sometimes she says she feels that she is choking.

    When she comes home from school, she lies down as Ms. Abdurahmanova gives her an intravenous drip.

    Doctors say they think Diana was poisoned by toxic pollutants as she collected bricks with her mother.

  3. #3
    WarInc bossman RomanS's Avatar
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    we are discussing PRE-WAR 1990-1995

    and why Russians went there.

  4. #4
    WarInc bossman RomanS's Avatar
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    And this is DURING THE WAR

    check this out

    http://www.intellnet.org/resources/chechen_terrorists/

    at least this has VIDEOS and PHOTOS to prove it

  5. #5
    Senior Member RavenW's Avatar
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    Have Russian forces comitted "war crimes" during the war?
    Perhaps, but so did American, British and Soviet troops during WWII.

    Nevertheless, it does not make their fight for liberation of Europe less noble. War is war, and mistakes and abuses happend during ANY armed conflict. Still, there is one side we call AXIS and there is another side we call ALLIES.

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    BARF..... those videos are sick.

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    the chechens are a bunch of sick savages

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    Senior Member Operation Ivy's Avatar
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    I am yet to see a photo, or a video of Russians murdering Chechen civilians (90,000 they say ?)
    So u think that Russians didnt do anything to the Chechens?


    and on topic
    Those vids were pretty nasty, and what the Chechens did to all those people is horrible

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    Senior Member StukaJr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Operation Ivy

    So u think that Russians didnt do anything to the Chechens?
    People are continiously missing the point - armed chechens ran attrocities for 4 years before russian army stormed Grozny... Four years! Displacing, murdering and kidnapping hundreds of thousands of peaceful residents and those simply traveling through the region.

    To answer your quiestion - I am not aware of russians causing any attrocities in Northern Kavkaz in the period of 1990 to late 1994. How can you excuse acts of attrocities in 1991 by what supposedely happens almost a decade later??? I'm sick and tired of listening to "violence begets violence" nonscense - apparently, letting attrocities rage on for 4 years doesn't exactly solve sh1t either!

    Russian government does not kidnap people and holds them for ransom! Russian government does not enslave people and trades them like livestock! Think next time you post "but russia does this as well..." nonscense!

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    Falcons FTW Kilgor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RavenW
    Or even worse supports terrorists, encourage their combatants to commite war crimes/crimes against humanity, provide financial and military support to terrorists, logistic support to terrorists, and do its outmost to prevent other side to bring the evil-doers to justice. In other words, serve as terrorist and criminal haven for evil-doers.
    Such is the case of Palestinians, Chechens, Iraqis, Hezbollah, Iran, Somalia.
    Good post

    What its all about

    Keep it up Russia.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kilgor
    Quote Originally Posted by RavenW
    Or even worse supports terrorists, encourage their combatants to commite war crimes/crimes against humanity, provide financial and military support to terrorists, logistic support to terrorists, and do its outmost to prevent other side to bring the evil-doers to justice. In other words, serve as terrorist and criminal haven for evil-doers.
    Such is the case of Palestinians, Chechens, Iraqis, Hezbollah, Iran, Somalia.
    Good post

    What its all about!

    Keep it up Russia.
    Oh my God! How old are you? I am ashame of myself, just arguing with you, but Ill do it anyway. Even the articles above say that Russians were occupying Chechenya for centuries. WHY? Do they have some right to own their land or sth.? I want explanation for that. Don't you think they would stop with their brutalities if Russians withdrew!?! What would you as an American do if your country was still only a part of British Empire, just one of the colonies. Would you be a terrorist if jou would fight against the occupiers? Use your head! Imperialism provokes resistance. Even if the cause to liberate iraqis was just, some of them see it as ocupation. Till recently the resistance was called fighting for freedom in the SAME WAY GEORGE WASHINGTON DID (my respect to him). Now, because of your "democratic" media it is called terrorism. It is terrorism in some cases, but why? Because there is no other way sometimes? There can be no frontal engagement, therefore... Both sides kill civilians, don't they? Say they don't, please... So that makes every fu..ing battle in the history of mankind a terrorist act? in ww2 Germans killed civilians, Italians did, Japaneese, Allied bombers and artillery,... Why isn't French resistance in ww2 called a terorist organization? Same goes for the partisans; and they too did comit attrocities, they too did kill injured and captured Germans etc.

    Who is to blame for that? Did Chechens invade Russia centuries ago? Are all west-oriented people in Poland, East Germany, Czech rep., Hungary, baltic states, Finland (ww 2 and before) who wanted to get out of Soviet grip during cold war only terrorist for you? During the Nam, nobody called Vietcong and NVA a terrorist organization, why so today?

    It is called asymetric warfare, my dear children! Read about it and then make comments about who deserves what!

    Sorry, but it makes me very angry when people use only one perspective!

  12. #12
    Senior Member RavenW's Avatar
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    Did Chechens invade Russia centuries ago?
    Yes.

    Are all west-oriented people in Poland, East Germany, Czech rep., Hungary, baltic states, Finland (ww 2 and before) who wanted to get out of Soviet grip during cold war only terrorist for you?
    No.

    During the Nam, nobody called Vietcong and NVA a terrorist organization, why so today?
    If Nam began to target American civilians in manner that Chechnes do today - they would be called terrorists.

    In other words, if Vietnam guerilla fighters began a campaign of suicide bombings across America,

    then they would take civilians (precisely PREGNANT women) in American smalltown hospital as hostages,

    then if Nam would take hostages in the middle of theatrical show in Washington DC,

    then if Vietnamese would destroy several high rise apartment buildings in the middle of New York (like Chechen jihadists did in the middle of Moscow),

    then if Vietnam milita began to kidnap American civilians just for slave labor and money ransome,

    then if Nam would be heavily envole in human slave trafficing, mafia and narco-bussiness

    and then when Vietnam 'fighters' would start to blow up American AmTrek trains and New York and LA subways,

    BELIEVE ME Americans would call them TERRORISTS as Russians call Chechen Islamic militia - a terrorists organization.

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    Senior Member StukaJr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Valuk

    Oh my God! How old are you? I am ashame of myself, just arguing with you, but Ill do it anyway. Even the articles above say that Russians were occupying Chechenya for centuries. WHY? Do they have some right to own their land or sth.? I want explanation for that. Don't you think they would stop with their brutalities if Russians withdrew!?!!
    Ummm... Chechnya was given autonomy in 1997 with russian troops withdrawing - what did they do with it but not start another conflict some 3 years later? Also, if you weren't an uneducated troll - you would have remembered that Chechnya is currently governed by the Chechen federal government - opposed by Islamic extremists and foreign mercenaries... Isn't it contradictory to war for independance to have majority of your figters to be paid foreign nationals???

    What right do you have to live on the land where you live right now? National borders change from decade to decade, not speaking of centuries - Nations come and go, unions form and fall apart... One should be given to live in any part of the planet without fearing having his head cut off just because of the ethnicity... So called "occupied" Chechnya had many nationals living on the same land - until some murdering extremists decided they wanted to start "cleansing" of the land from unbelivers...

  14. #14
    Falcons FTW Kilgor's Avatar
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    You can stick your "asymetric warfare" up your ****.

    Its simply a euphemism for dirty, cowardly, murderous Islamic terrorism.

    Id love to know how blowing up innocent women and children on a bus with no military goal is considered warfare

  15. #15
    Senior Member RavenW's Avatar
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    Terrorism - a deliberate/intentional act of violence where civilians are the main target of the attack.

    Precisely, what Palestinian, Chechen, Iraqi and Mogadishu 'fighters' are involved in.

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