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Thread: Chechen Genocide, Very brutal stuff

  1. #1
    WarInc bossman RomanS's Avatar
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    Default Chechen Genocide, Very brutal stuff

    I knew about this before, and I read some of the people's accounts, and like i said before my mother knew a family from Grozny. They left the war right before the first Chechen war began. She came and stayed with us untill she got her own place. She tolled us some brutal stuff.

    Chechens had a license to kill any Slavic, Jewish or non-Chechen living in Chechnya between 1991-1994. Dudaev's people murdered a lot of Russians, and there is plenty of evidence.

    After reading the people's accounts, i must say GOD BLESS RUSSIAN ARMY!

    here is a source, its in Russian at the moment. But I will translate it in English for you all.

    http://web.vrn.ru/piligrim/genocide%20a.htm

    http://samara.slavrus.net/library/kavkaz/raby.html

    http://kolev3.narod.ru/Books/Chech/prestup.html

    http://www.tam.ru/koltso/chechnia2.htm

    http://www.russcenter.org/modules.ph...035b704232dfaa

    The following article shouldnt be used to judge the entire region of Chechnya, but it should open your eyes about Chechen independance in the 90s.


    I left Grozny in February of 1993 due to constant danger from armed Chechen people, and nonpayment of pension and wages.
    I left my condo with almost everyting in it, 2 cars, and my garage. I left with my husband.

    In February of 1993, chechens killed my female neighbor on the street by her house. They fractured her head, broke her ribs, and raped her. Another neighbor Elena Ivanovna, a WW2 veteran was killed by the same armed people.

    In 1993 the living conditions were horrible, there was murder everywhere. Many cars were blown up with people in them. Russians were fired from many jobs without reasons given to them.

    In another apartment near us, Chechens kille a man who was born in 1905. There were 9 stabing wounds in his body, his daughter was raped and killed in the kitchen.

    A.Kochedykova, lived in Grozny



    In may of 1993 while I was working in my garage, two Chechens armed with an automatic and a pistol atacked me trying to get my car. They couldnít take the care due to mechanical problems. They shot right above my head.

    In the fall of 1993 another armed group of armed Chechens in the most brutal way executed my friend Bolgarski.U. because he refused to give out his Volga car.

    Similar cases were all over Chechnya during that time. Because of that, I left Grozny.
    B. Efankin, lived in Grozny



    In november of 1994 my Chechen neighbors threatened me with a pistol, and threw me off my apartment. They took it over without my premission.
    D. Garuryan, lived in Grozny


    On July 1st 1994 four Chechen teenagers broke my arm in the area of Krasni Molot factory. I was coming back from work, when they approached me.
    P.Kuskov, lived in Grozny




    On December 6th and 7th, I was brutally beaten due to my refusal in joining Dudaevís army as a Ukranian nationalist.
    E. Dapkulinets, lived in Chechen-Aul, Grozny



    In the summer of 1994 out of my window I witnessed a group of armed Chechens approaching my neighbor Mkrtchan N., and shot him in the foot. After that they took his car and drove it away.
    E. Barsukova, lived in Grozny



    On the may 6, 1993 in Grozny my husband Tarasov. A.F. was kidnaped by Chechens. He was a metal welder, so they took him away.
    G. Tarasova, lived in Grozny



    On December 31st 1994 my husband Pogotin V. and my brother Eremin A. was shot by a Chechen sniper, when my husband and brother were moving away dead Russian soldiers.
    E. Hobova, lived in Grozny



    In September of 1994 I was in my sisters apartment Vishnyakova O.N., when a group of Chechens broke in, brutally beat my son, and took my 12 year old daughter Lena. She never came back. Since 1993 my son was beaten constantly.
    N. Trofimova, lived in Grozny



    On January 11, 1995, in the Grozny park, Dudaevís army executed a group of captured Russian soldiers.
    V. Ageeva, lived in Petropavlovskii station, Grozny



    In august 1992 our neighbors Sarkisyan R.S., and his wife, Sarkisyan Z.S. were brutally tortured and than burned alive.
    M. Hrapova, lived in Gudermes



    On November 7th 1991 three armed Chechens shot up my cabin, fortenately I lived. In September 1992 were demanding my apartment, and to make a point they threw in a grenade. I took my relatives and left Chechnya.
    V. Kobzarev, lived in Grozny area.




    My Daughter was coming back home from work, when Chechens forced her to get in the car. She was beaten, raped, and stabed. We had to leave Grozny.
    T. Aleksandrova, lived in Grozny



    My neighbor who used to work with KGB was kidnaped in the early morning from his own apartment. A few days later his brutally vandalized corpse was found near. I didnít withness the murder, but heard from my friend O.K. (no adress provided, the account took place in Grozny in 1991)
    T. Vdovchenko, lived in Grozny




    In Grozny I lived untill November 1992. Dudaev declared an open season on all Russians living in Chechnya. The crimes took place all over the place, and no Chechens were arrested for their crimes. On of the professors from Grozny University was kidnaped, and later found brutally executed. He was killed because he didnít want to retire.
    V. Nazarenko, lived in Grozny



    I live in Grozny untill the end of april 1994. I worked on station Kalinovskaya, Naurski district. I was a director of a musical education. At the end of 1993 I was coming back from work. I had to walk because all the buses were stoped. A car pulled next to me (Zhiguli model), an armed Chechen with Kalashnikov came out of the car, and threatened to kill me. He than forced me into the car, brought me to some field, raped and beat me.
    O. Shepetilo



    My son Zair in June of 1993 was taken as a hostage for ransom. They kept him for 3 weeks untill I paid 1,500,000 rubles ( $3000)
    Y. Yunusova



    In the spring of 1992 in Grozny on the Dyakova street, the liquor store was robed. In the house of the liqour store owner, Chechens threw a grenade. The grenade killed a man, and his wife had her foot amputated.
    M. Potrnyh



    I left Grozny in March of 1993. My son was robed 5 times. Once they took all of his clothing. He was also beaten when he was going to school. He had a fractured scull, and they also threatened him with a knife. They beat me up as well. The reason was given because I was simply Russian. One of my sonís teachers was killed. Right before we left, my sonís friend Maksim was murdered.
    I. Chekulina



    In 1992 in Grozny, an elementary school was attacked. Several kids were taken as hostages, and raped by armed Chechens. In 1993 my schoolmate was kidnaped. In the summer of 1993 when we were leaving, a group of Chechens shot a man in the train station.
    V. Minkoeva


    In Grozny I worked as a nurse in a childrenís hospital N-1. My co-worker Totikova was executed with her whole family. I knew my life was in danger. One time Dudaev with his man came into the hospital, placed us against the walls, and started to scream at us about Russian genocide, when this building use to belong to KGB. They didnít pay me for 7 months, and in the april of 1993 I left.
    V. Komarova



    In the Summer of 1994, around 1pm I witnessed an execution on Krushev street. Two Chechens, one Russian, and one Korean were shot. The four executioners were Dudaevís officers, who brought the victims in the cars.
    U. Pletneev




    In 1992 unkown people armed with pistol took my friends car, who lived on Chervlennaya station. In 1992 two Chechens armed with a pistol and a knive broke into my neighbors apartment, tied a women, and her older daugher, took their TV, toaster, and ran off. In 1992 on station Chervlennaya my mother was robed by armed Chechens. They took her orthodox cross, and beat her. My brotherís neighbor decided to leave Chechnya in his car Vaz2121, but later was found dead in the river, and his car not far from it.
    A. Fedushkin



    At the end of August 1992, my grandaughter was kidnaped, and taken away. They later released her. On Assinovka station, in the kidergarden a group of armed Chechens raped all females, and their teachers. Our Chechen neighbor Ynys threatened my sonís life, if he wouldnít sell his house to him. At the end of 1991 a bunch of armed Chechens broke into my relatives house, and were asking for money. They killed him.
    V. Doronina



    On August 25th 1992, around midnight, a group of Chechens came to our backyard, and forced my wife to have *** with them. She refused, and was brutally beaten.
    S. Akinshin


    In the front entrance of a house, some Chechens executed an Armenian, and a Russian local. Russian was killed because he tried to help the Armenian.
    N. Lobenko



    In march of 1994, in the school where my daughter Natasha worked, a drunk armed Chechen came in, and tried to rape her. My daughter fought back, and escaped. I also witnessed when our neighbors were robed.
    T. Zabrodina



    My co-worker, a 22 year old girl was executed in fron of my eyes next to our work. I was robed by them, I had the money and I gave them all.
    O. Kalchenko



    My son was killed on 8.1.95. On 4.1.94 Chechens killed my younger son.
    V. Karagedin


    They made us take the new Chechen citizenship. If we wouldnít take it, we would get food they said.
    E. Dzuba




    In the april of 1993 my apartment was broken into. The Chechens were dressed up in OMON uniform, and took my valubales
    O. Borichevski, lived in Grozny



    On December 2nd, 1993 around 36th street Staropromislovski district, Grozny five armed Chechens took me as a hostage, and brought me to a garage, beat me up, raped me once. After that they took me to another apartment, where they raped me again.
    N. Kolesnikova, lived in Grozny



    Our neighbors- family T. (mother, father, son and daughter) were found dead in their house with a brutal signs of murder.
    E. Kurbanoca, O.Kurbanova, L.Kurbanov, lived in Grozny



    Our neighbors in daughter lost their daughter. Chechens were demanding a ransom.
    T. Fefelova, lived in Grozny



    In August of 1994, three Chechens came into the house of a family K.(Gudermes). Chechens made the husband to get under the bed, and they raped his 80 year old wife. A week later she died.

    My kitchen was set on fire from 30th-31st of december 1994
    L. Davidova


    I lived in Grozny, right next to the train station. Everyday I saw how Chechens robbed trains. On the night of New Years eve 1995, Chechens came to me and demanded money to buy weapons and ammo.
    T. Lisitskaya


    On November 2nd 1994, unknown Chechens took my daughter Angela.
    K. Zelikina




    At the beginning of april 1993, our house was robed (Grozny). At the end of april 1993, Chechens took our car Vas-2109. On May 10th 1994, my husband Bagdasaryan G.Z. was executed with an automatic in his head.
    T. Suhorukova



    In 1993 armed Chechens robed my house (Novomarevskaya st.). They took all the valuable thing, my mother was tortures with a knife.
    A.Rudinskaya



    Dudaevís people took a principle of a school Belyaev V., on Kalinovskaya st. as a hostage. They also took his assistant Plotnikov, and a director of a farm ďKalinovskiĒ Erin. They asked for 12 million rubles, and after not receiving the money, the Chechens executed them all.
    V. Bochkareva



    On January 13, 1991. Me along with my husband were robed in our apartment by a group of Chechens (Grozny). They took all the valuables, including my ear rings out of my ears.
    A.Nefedova




    Between December 18-20, 1994 we were brutally beaten by Dudaevís people because we didnít want fight for his side.
    U. Usachev, F. Usachev




    My neighbors Ė Armenians were constantly being robbed by Chechens. Their 15 year old daughter was raped. In 1993 family of Prohorova P. E. was robed.
    E. Kalganova



    In the winter of 1992, our and our neighbors houses were taken by a group of Chechens. They forced us out, threating us with automatics. My son and daughter witnessed a murder of our neighbor B. on the street.
    A. Lotnikova




    In September 1994, two Chechen fighters raped my 19 year old daughter.
    M. Vasilieva



    In 1991, Dudaev and his man stormed an MVD building in Grozny. They killed all the Russian policeman inside, a collonel, and injured a major. In Grozny Chechens kidnaped a profesor of a University, and later killed him. A group of Armed Chechens broke into my parents house, and using hot iron tortured them. They took 750,000 rubles, and took their car.
    Pantereleeva


    On the August 2nd 1994, in the middle of a night (Gudermes), tow armed Chechens broke into our house. They cut my motherís throat, but I fought back, and managed to recognize one of my old Chechen school mate. I came to Chechen MVD, and they tolled me that my life is now in danger, and that my son will be killed. I took all my remaining relatives into Stavropol, and than left Grozny myself.
    I. Udalova



    In the middle of 1993, daughter of my friend was kidnaped in the car (Grozny). She was later found dead. There were brutal signs of rape. My same friend later was also kidnaped. The Chechens took her to their apartment, and raped her between 15-17 of may 1993. I was atacked in my apartment by probably the same people, but my neighbor an older Chechen, tried to protect me. In September 1993 I was leaving Chechnya, as I witnessed a brutal beating of my friend in the train station. I was also kicked in the face by a Chechen for looking.
    V. Fedorova




    On August 7th 1994, my co-worker S.U.L with his wife was kidnaped by Chechen army. On August 9th they released the wife to go get money. She said that Chechens brutally beat them, tortured them. On September 5th 1994, vandalized body of her husband S. was found.
    N. Zuzina



    In 1992, Chechens executed T.V.(1960 date of birth) mother of three kids. Chechens also tortured and executed our neighbors, an older man and his wife. Chechen police refused to look for murderers.
    A. Vitkov




    IM SORRY, BUT I'm TOO DEPRESSED RIGHT NOW TO TRANSLATE THE REST 36 accounts.

    The first war started on the New Year's eve 1995.

    Many people ask us, why did Russians soldiers came to Chechnya in first war?

    GOD BLESS THEM, and RIP to the innocent

    thank you all for attention

  2. #2

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    Have Russian forces comitted "war crimes" during the war?

  3. #3
    Senior Member RavenW's Avatar
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    In a Ruined City, Even the Rubble Is Taken From Them
    By SETH MYDANS
    The New York Times

    Published: June 1, 2004


    GROZNY, Russia - There is one green poplar in the row of dead and brittle trees that line a shattered building here, and by coincidence it stands at the only doorway that is not in ruins.

    Both have been preserved by some mystery of nature through 10 years of war that have left behind a neighborhood of bombed and uninhabitable piles of brick.

    On a bench near the doorway sit some of the women who live here, cracked and chipped by the rough handling of life, warming themselves in the pale sunlight of another spring.

    Their main achievement, and still their main pursuit, is that they have stayed alive here in Chechnya through war and cold and hunger and illness, pulling one another along if any lagged behind.

    "Nobody else cares about us," said Alla Kharlamova, 60, hovering between tears and anger. "We simply exist."

    Her neighbor Viktoria Kuradjan, 76, a tiny woman bent by age like a crooked finger, contributed a sigh, "Hoo, hoo, hoo."

    Now the nine women and the two mild and quiet men who live inside with them face a new threat that could cost them their livelihood and even their home.

    Thieves have been carting away their bricks.

    Having lost everything else, this little group of mismatched neighbors is living off the rubble that has collapsed around them, cleaning and selling the bricks, one by one.

    A new breed of entrepreneur, the brick dealer, has emerged in Grozny, buying up good quality bricks like theirs for a ruble apiece, or about three cents.

    At that rate, nine bricks will buy a loaf of bread. Eighteen bricks will buy a dozen eggs. Twenty-five bricks will buy a carton of pasteurized milk. Ten bricks will pay for the bus ride to and from the market.

    "Ten rubles," Ms. Kuradjan said. "That's very big money. For me, even one is a lot."

    Rubble is now the main natural resource of this battered city, including the remains of the oil refinery and factories that flourished here before the war. An iron beam can pay to fix a leaking roof. Children search the ground as they walk, looking for bits of metal.

    Once, a brick dealer with a truck bought 1,600 bricks from the women who live here - a moment they still describe with wonder.

    More often, though, robbers carry off their bricks at night.

    "We say, 'Don't take them! This is our building,' " Ms. Kharlamova said. "But they take them anyway."

    A small, trembling woman in rubber boots and a head scarf, she sometimes stands sentry over the bricks as if that could make a difference.

    "They threaten me," she said. "They told me, 'Look out, or you'll find your head in a tree.' "

    Larisa Abdurahmanova, 40, a former nurse, once took an iron bar and a bottle of vinegar, the only weapons at hand, and chased away a group of robbers.

    " 'You old grannies don't need anything, but we need the money,' " she said they told her. "I stood in front of them and said, 'Shoot me!' "

    Not long ago a paramilitary group known for kidnapping and torture wanted to take possession of a basement at the far end of the broken building.

    "I thought, 'What do they want a basement for?' No! No way," Ms. Abdurahmanova said. She said she told the men, "Over my dead body," and they backed off, hauling away some bricks as they went.

    By truckload and wheelbarrow, the ruined building where this group lives is growing smaller.

    "One day a woman came with a folder of papers and very officially said, 'Get out. We are knocking down your home,' " Ms. Abdurahmanova said. "We said, 'Where are we supposed to go?' She said, 'I have no idea.' "

    At this point, half of the building's 36 apartments have been demolished and more may follow.

    If they are forced to move, the little family here will leave behind the grave of a man named Viktor Marsak, one neighbor who did not survive the war.

    "He died of cold and hunger, even though I gave him the same as I gave myself," Ms. Abdurahmanova said, wiping her eyes. "He always said, 'I'm helpless, Larisa, help me.' I wanted to bury him with his mother but it was too dangerous to go around and look for her grave in the cemeteries."

    Once, when the fighting was heavy, they took in a neighbor who was almost blind.

    "We cut wood for a fire and melted snow for water," Ms. Abdurahmanova said. "The wind was blowing through the window. Then there was shooting. We didn't know what to do. We hugged each other. I fainted."

    Soldiers came and aimed their guns at the blind man. "Stop!" the women shouted. "He's blind!"

    As the soldiers took him away to a hospital, Ms. Abdurahmanova said, he called back to her, "Larechka, my little daughter, when I can see again I'll look for you."

    Last winter, the struggle to keep living became too much for Ms. Kharlamova and she decided to die. Her neighbors banged on her door and shouted.

    "Alla, open up!"

    "No, I won't open."

    In the end, she accepted a glass of honey and milk.

    "I have allergies," she explained. "It's hard to breathe."

    Now a new stray has come to join the clan, Yaha Gaziyeva, who was abandoned by her husband three years ago along with her daughter, Diana, who is now 8.

    Since then, mother and daughter had been supporting themselves by foraging for bricks and scrap on the territory of the ruined oil refinery.

    Diana, a beautiful girl with steady, wide-set eyes, is sick. Her blond hair is turning gray and there are strange blotches on her skin that darken in sunlight. Sometimes she says she feels that she is choking.

    When she comes home from school, she lies down as Ms. Abdurahmanova gives her an intravenous drip.

    Doctors say they think Diana was poisoned by toxic pollutants as she collected bricks with her mother.

  4. #4
    WarInc bossman RomanS's Avatar
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    we are discussing PRE-WAR 1990-1995

    and why Russians went there.

  5. #5
    WarInc bossman RomanS's Avatar
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    And this is DURING THE WAR

    check this out

    http://www.intellnet.org/resources/chechen_terrorists/

    at least this has VIDEOS and PHOTOS to prove it

  6. #6
    Senior Member RavenW's Avatar
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    Have Russian forces comitted "war crimes" during the war?
    Perhaps, but so did American, British and Soviet troops during WWII.

    Nevertheless, it does not make their fight for liberation of Europe less noble. War is war, and mistakes and abuses happend during ANY armed conflict. Still, there is one side we call AXIS and there is another side we call ALLIES.

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    WarInc bossman RomanS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Va_Dinger
    Have Russian forces comitted "war crimes" during the war?
    Im sure it happens in every single WAR.

    However, a photo is worth a thousand words.
    A video- a million.

    Remember what happened with Iraqi prsisioner situation. The released photos. People went nuts. They released videos, a whole world got pissed.

    I'm not saying that I support what happened to those prisioners. I do say that if we compare how American prisioners were treated. HOLLY ****, thats night and day. GO USA

    But its not the point.
    I am yet to see a photo, or a video of Russians murdering Chechen civilians (90,000 they say ?)

    How ever, we do see photos, and 400+ hours of Chechen terrorism.
    Explain please

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    BARF..... those videos are sick.

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    the chechens are a bunch of sick savages

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    Senior Member Operation Ivy's Avatar
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    I am yet to see a photo, or a video of Russians murdering Chechen civilians (90,000 they say ?)
    So u think that Russians didnt do anything to the Chechens?


    and on topic
    Those vids were pretty nasty, and what the Chechens did to all those people is horrible

  11. #11
    Senior Member RavenW's Avatar
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    The problem as I see it...

    It's not about terrorism, abuses, war crimes.

    Those happen everywhere.
    Every nation has some bad sheep that during armed conflict abuse their position and beat, mistreat prisoners, torture and rape women, commit acts of vandalism and/or terrorism.

    But it is about how government reacts to such incidents, what does it do to prevent their accurence and how does it reazct to its own terrorist acts.

    In other words, there are NO saints in any war, but one side takes lessons from some bad accidents and tries to deal with it in mature and civilized manner - bringing perpetrators to justice, explaning the importance of humanism to its own troops, control and police, enforces military conduct and, if neccessary, tries those individualts... This is a case of Israel, Russia, USA, Britain.

    And there is a side that does virtually nothing to prevent war crimes, crimes against humanity, act of terrorism and/or vandalism, mistreatment and abuse of prisoners, as well as full disregard for military standards, conduct and codes of war.
    Or even worse supports terrorists, encourage their combatants to commite war crimes/crimes against humanity, provide financial and military support to terrorists, logistic support to terrorists, and do its outmost to prevent other side to bring the evil-doers to justice. In other words, serve as terrorist and criminal haven for evil-doers.
    Such is the case of Palestinians, Chechens, Iraqis, Hezbollah, Iran, Somalia.



    And last, there is a third side that is worse than evil-doers themselves. Under the cover of 'neutrality' it watches and sometimes protects/supportws of evil-doers. It commites humerous atrocities when it is involved in armed conflict. But then very often forget its own crimes and plays double standard when it comes to deal with the Jews, Russians, Americans.
    Such is the case of Europe, who has it won share of abuses and horrible crimes against humanity.

    This side either don't understand the difference between the sides and the sides' approach to terrorism/abuses problem, or simply does NOT want to understand. (pretend not to understand and differentiate between the sides, continues to play the game of 'neutrality', until it is clear that Allies will win over evil).

    This group is the most disgusting group to my view. As Persian philosopher once said: "Neutrality is one of the forms of evil. It does not fights it, thus helping it to exist.".

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    Hate to break it to all of you guys, but it goes both ways....Russian troops have license to rape, murder, and rob any non Russian in Chechnya. Foir example, Pravda did a piece years ago on the number of Russian troops brought to trial for war crimes in Chechnya.....And the number was significant but almost ZERO actually face any punishments.... A big deal was made about the trials but then quitely the men were let free under "temporary insanity" and even some of the rapists and killers were let back into the armed forces!!!!!!

    It happens daily....There are daily reports, daily pictures, daily video's......The Chechen violence is merely a response to outright Russian brutality in Chechnya.......After all, just take a look at pictures of Grozny (or any other major Chechen city that was bombed to the ground) on this very webpage....or any other.....You will see that the capital looks like it was bombed and shelled to the ground because it WAS!!! And thousands of trapped civilians were sufficated, burried, and burned alive by Russian bombs. If that happened to your city, you might just retaliate....If your mother was crushed to death as the Russians indescriminately bombed your city and shot innocent women maybe you would take up arms to fight the invaders!!

    Interestingly, there are a great many reports from Russians living in Grozny during the first war of Chechens taking care of them and shielding them from Russian rape squads who could care less whether the peice of hot ass meat they found was Russian or Chechen.......The usual thing to happen was for them to gang rape her and either kill her or if she was a Muslum the shame would cause her to kill herself or to be "honor killed" by her family........and of course horny drunk Russian conscripts couldnt care less about that......

    Of course it is true that Chechens did kill Russians.......I am not denying that...But to say "bastard Chechens" and ignore the fact that Russian federal troops have killed many tens of thousands of innocent men, women, and children in the course of the Chechen wars is hypocracy at its worst.........

    Just run a google search on "Chechnya" and you will find TONS of webpages from official and private sources with no vested intererest in lying about the truth of whats going on in Chechnya.......like Russian memners and any Chechen members on this board.....

    I am niether Russian or Chechen...My mother is English and my father is Irish... I have no relation that is Russian at all.......I have no vested interest in taking sides......I merely looked at the information and came to my own conclusions........

    What Russian did to Chechnya and the Chechen people marks as one of the greatest war crimes of this century........period.....What Cechens do to innocent Russians is equaly barbaric.....

    Like I said, you can call the Chechens brutal all you want, and I will agree with you 100%, but at least try to look at it from both sides......At least get information from outside sources and not former Russian soldiers with combat xp in Chechnya!!! For gods sake I cant think of a worse source for impartiality then the very men accused of committing such crimes!!!!

  13. #13
    Senior Member StukaJr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Operation Ivy

    So u think that Russians didnt do anything to the Chechens?
    People are continiously missing the point - armed chechens ran attrocities for 4 years before russian army stormed Grozny... Four years! Displacing, murdering and kidnapping hundreds of thousands of peaceful residents and those simply traveling through the region.

    To answer your quiestion - I am not aware of russians causing any attrocities in Northern Kavkaz in the period of 1990 to late 1994. How can you excuse acts of attrocities in 1991 by what supposedely happens almost a decade later??? I'm sick and tired of listening to "violence begets violence" nonscense - apparently, letting attrocities rage on for 4 years doesn't exactly solve sh1t either!

    Russian government does not kidnap people and holds them for ransom! Russian government does not enslave people and trades them like livestock! Think next time you post "but russia does this as well..." nonscense!

  14. #14
    Senior Member StukaJr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by obd
    Hate to break it to all of you guys, but it goes both ways....Russian troops have license to rape, murder, and rob any non Russian in Chechnya.
    I would like to see that "liscense", OBD...

    First of all, out of two sides - the russian army at least has its system of checks and military tribuneral, command system and its own military police! You may paint everything with grey paint and argue that the system is nothing but a show, but please do remember that the "duhks" have nothing but anarchy in store! How many russian soldiers were prosecuted for crimes and how many "dukhs" were prosecuted by their own? Almost every allegation against russian troops - "masked men with guns"... Oh - that could be about anybody!

    Do not forget, at this point, this is far not russians vs chechens! There are more chechens on the side of the Federal government than there are "duhks" running around in the mountains.

    I can promise you one thing - when the "duhks" stop existing - all these attrocities against civilian population will stop happening! Russian Soldiers have been in Chechnya for hundreds of years - during Soviet Times and before then, in the Russian Empire... It's very shady how all these attrocities began happening with the rise of islam extremists!

  15. #15
    WarInc bossman RomanS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RavenW
    The problem as I see it...

    It's not about terrorism, abuses, war crimes.

    Those happen everywhere.
    Every nation has some bad sheep that during armed conflict abuse their position and beat, mistreat prisoners, torture and rape women, commit acts of vandalism and/or terrorism.

    But it is about how government reacts to such incidents, what does it do to prevent their accurence and how does it reazct to its own terrorist acts.

    In other words, there are NO saints in any war, but one side takes lessons from some bad accidents and tries to deal with it in mature and civilized manner - bringing perpetrators to justice, explaning the importance of humanism to its own troops, control and police, enforces military conduct and, if neccessary, tries those individualts... This is a case of Israel, Russia, USA, Britain.

    And there is a side that does virtually nothing to prevent war crimes, crimes against humanity, act of terrorism and/or vandalism, mistreatment and abuse of prisoners, as well as full disregard for military standards, conduct and codes of war.
    Or even worse supports terrorists, encourage their combatants to commite war crimes/crimes against humanity, provide financial and military support to terrorists, logistic support to terrorists, and do its outmost to prevent other side to bring the evil-doers to justice. In other words, serve as terrorist and criminal haven for evil-doers.
    Such is the case of Palestinians, Chechens, Iraqis, Hezbollah, Iran, Somalia.



    And last, there is a third side that is worse than evil-doers themselves. Under the cover of 'neutrality' it watches and sometimes protects/supportws of evil-doers. It commites humerous atrocities when it is involved in armed conflict. But then very often forget its own crimes and plays double standard when it comes to deal with the Jews, Russians, Americans.
    Such is the case of Europe, who has it won share of abuses and horrible crimes against humanity.

    This side either don't understand the difference between the sides and the sides' approach to terrorism/abuses problem, or simply does NOT want to understand. (pretend not to understand and differentiate between the sides, continues to play the game of 'neutrality', until it is clear that Allies will win over evil).

    This group is the most disgusting group to my view. As Persian philosopher once said: "Neutrality is one of the forms of evil. It does not fights it, thus helping it to exist.".
    I respect your opinion, and agree with it a lot.

    THANK YOU!

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