RROC M4 Review

[SwissGrenadier]

http://usashooters.org/artman/publis...cle_1635.shtml

Enjoy!

[thatguy96]

It has been a poorly kept secret for several years that the US Military's M4/M4A1 Carbine has its problems...

Um...is everyone not reading Lessons Learned and After Action Reports from Iraq and Afghanistan that seem to be generally devoid of the massive complaints about the standard AR-15/M16 pattern that everyone is constantly harping on?

Ooooh, its a gas-piston AR-15/M16 upper . Colt, Olin, Winchester, LMS, RIA, and Alan Zitta (Z/M weapons) have created gas-piston uppers, and since the first Colt/Winchester experiments in the '70s there has been no interest, and tests seemed to show that there was little improvement over the pattern as it exists. HK went and created one recently and people had so forgotten that it had already been done that it was being hailed as a unique improvement that someone had finally taken the time to do, which was a blatant lie. This review was at least kind enough to note the hard work of others before, even if it says they were all mediocre systems, not living up to the expectations of the military (which isn't true. Its simply that the Army tested some early protos and found while it functioned well and reliably, it offered no significant improvement, at least not enough to warrant replacement). Its a good idea, but its not exactly new, and it doesn't seem to be the miracle cure either, mainly because the system isn't near as broken as people would like to believe.

PROJECT MANAGER SOLDIER WEAPONS SOLDIER WEAPONS ASSESSMENT TEAM REPORT 6-03

6/10/03 Smalls Arms and Individual Equipment Lessons Learned

20 April-25 April 2003 MCSC Liason Team Field Report

However, the recoil system in this carbine is something to look at because of the AR-15/M16's straightline design. The fact that the bolt-carrier has been reworked to assist in keeping the weapon level even during firing, and that th recoil buffer has been substantially imrpoved are really interesting upgrades.

[Rakki]

well, it's obvious that this guy is trying to sell something, so everything should be taken with a grain of salt...

[rob]

It has been a poorly kept secret for several years that the US Military's M4/M4A1 Carbine has its problems...

Um...is everyone not reading Lessons Learned and After Action Reports from Iraq and Afghanistan that seem to be generally devoid of the massive complaints about the standard AR-15/M16 pattern that everyone is constantly harping on?

Ooooh, its a gas-piston AR-15/M16 upper . Colt, Olin, Winchester, LMS, RIA, and Alan Zitta (Z/M weapons) have created gas-piston uppers, and since the first Colt/Winchester experiments in the '70s there has been no interest, and tests seemed to show that there was little improvement over the pattern as it exists. HK went and created one recently and people had so forgotten that it had already been done that it was being hailed as a unique improvement that someone had finally taken the time to do, which was a blatant lie. This review was at least kind enough to note the hard work of others before, even if it says they were all mediocre systems, not living up to the expectations of the military (which isn't true. Its simply that the Army tested some early protos and found while it functioned well and reliably, it offered no significant improvement, at least not enough to warrant replacement). Its a good idea, but its not exactly new, and it doesn't seem to be the miracle cure either, mainly because the system isn't near as broken as people would like to believe.

PROJECT MANAGER SOLDIER WEAPONS SOLDIER WEAPONS ASSESSMENT TEAM REPORT 6-03

6/10/03 Smalls Arms and Individual Equipment Lessons Learned

20 April-25 April 2003 MCSC Liason Team Field Report

However, the recoil system in this carbine is something to look at because of the AR-15/M16's straightline design. The fact that the bolt-carrier has been reworked to assist in keeping the weapon level even during firing, and that th recoil buffer has been substantially imrpoved are really interesting upgrades.

zm weapons does not use a gas piston, it is a common mistake made by even experianed shooters. the only difference is the gas key extends over the handguard so the recoil spring can be moved around it instead of inside the buttstock. the system does keep cleaner though because teh gas key enver separate from teh gas tube as it does in a normal ar15.

[thatguy96]

it is a LR 300 upper and lower receiver with a new type of interconnecting op-rod gas system,

straight from: http://www.zmweapons.com/lr-300ml.htm

That would seem to suggest otherwise.

[rob]

it is a LR 300 upper and lower receiver with a new type of interconnecting op-rod gas system,

straight from: http://www.zmweapons.com/lr-300ml.htm

That would seem to suggest otherwise.

that says nothing about a gas piston.

just trust me on this one, it does not have a gas piston, do a search on ar15.com, the owners of that rifle correct people on that issue about twice a month.

[thatguy96]

Then how in hell is it an operating rod gas system? Op-rod is usually synonymous with gas-piston.

[rob]

Then how in hell is it an operating rod gas system? Op-rod is usually synonymous with gas-piston.

i explained that in my first post.

[thatguy96]

That seems to do little in the way of explaining how its an operating rod gas system. All you say is how the system really only has to do with the changed places of the gas key and recoil system. Direct-gas and operating rod systems are two different functioning methods, at least that's what I think, and the AR-15/M16 pattern by default is a direct gas system.

[rob]

ar15 search function is down. but here is one from hkpro.

http://hkpro.websolv.com/ubbthreads/...b=5&o=&fpart=1

they normally just bitch about how bad everything other then hk is, but they where actually right concerning the zm lr300.

[thatguy96]

Then what's the definition of an Op-Rod system? Now I'm just curious, the evidence obviously supports what you're saying, but I want to know how far this misnomer goes in how I think about things.

[REMOV]

Op-rod = Operationing Rod

Well, I'll try to explain you using my bad English

In the LR300 bolt carrier's trunk is about half length than in M16 family and equipped with somethilng similar to the long piston rod reaching gas chamber at the frontsight base-level. But, this isn't classical piston rod ended by the gas piston (like in AK/AKM or FNC) inside the gas chamber. In the LR300 the normal gas cylinder tube from M16 is shortened by half and goes inside (or holds into) the piston rod. When the slide is forward then piston rod pulls at the whole lenght of gas cylinder tube. The recoil spring is slipped over the piston rod and is sqeezed when the gas is throwing back the bolt carrier group (ie. the piston rod and the bolt). It (i.e. recoil spring) prevents the bolt to collide with back side of the receiver, then it force everything to move back to the forward position.

This construction seems to be better than M16, because:
- the short gas cylinder tube isn't block so fast by rubbish.
- gases aren't transfered directly at the bolt carrier that's why there is also not so strong impurity inside the receiver.

Any questions?

[thatguy96]

So it isn't a traditional gas-piston, but it would appear its close enough for working definitions. The LR300 still runs off a non-direct gas operating system. Thx Remov

[rob]

So it isn't a traditional gas-piston, but it would appear its close enough for working definitions. The LR300 still runs off a non-direct gas operating system. Thx Remov

actually they are, the gas key is just extended.

see the holes on the side of the bolt carrier? http://www.securityarms.com/20010315.../1600/1606.htm

those are there only because they are used to relieve gas pressure inside the bolt carrier.

the rifle stays clearner long because the gas key never seperates from the gas tube within the reciever leaving gasses to go where ever they want inside the reciever, as is that case with normal ar15s.

btw, every ar15 has a piston, they are just inside the carrier group instead of above the berral.