Sukhoi T-50 PAK FA

[artjomh]

But, the more they build, the lesser the R&D costs will weight on the price per unit, or not?

Only if you assume that a single unified fighter is what you need. Operationally speaking.

And there has to be a break even point at which the number of Pakfas is not more expensive than a small number of them + a large number of different aircraft, and if you add in the costs that are saved by unification and through the mass production of the Radar and different systems, the ppu should drop again.

But Su-35 will always be cheaper than PAK-FA, because most of the R&D is already a sunk cost, so why would you even need to buy additional PAK-FA? They will be more expensive than the alternative and they will not be able to do the tasks that the alternative is capable of.

Perhaps, in the more distant future they'll come up with a more multi-purpose PAK-FA Lite (think F-22 to F-35), whereas PAK-FA technology would be an already recovered sunk cost, but for now that niche is filled with the current generation of Sukhoi planes.

[eATS]

But, the more they build, the lesser the R&D costs will weight on the price per unit, or not?

Per Unit? R&D cost is R&D cost, Per Unit doesn't save money on the Bill, it will still be a lump Sum. though it might be worth passing a budget if per unit cost were lower.

then you get into what artjomh is explaining. F-22 is only a part of this System and not designed for every role. sure it would be nice to have 400 of them, then you would want 1200 F-35s to go along with it.

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this article explains how Russia is trying to make PAK FA beat 200 raptors with lesser F-35 in greater numbers as a fleet.

i'd rather have 200 raptors now, see what PAK FA really is, then consider producing a Upgraded raptor with new missles and sensors down the road, like F-22b model

Russia’s PAK-FA versus the F-22 and F-35

http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-NOTAM-300309-1.html

[manberries]

Hmm, I think I will withhold my trust of an Australian Air-power "article" that states both the purpose and capability of an aircraft that has virtually no information released about it.

[eATS]

lol, its no different than anything posted in this forum, the whole project is speculation at this moment... its just a interesting read. take from it what you will.

[artjomh]

Hmm, I think I will withhold my trust of an Australian Air-power "article" that states both the purpose and capability of an aircraft that has virtually no information released about it.

I dunno. I've read the article and their guesstimates about PAK-FA are fairly realistic.

- We know its engines would be a derivative of either AL-41F or 117S, with maybe a little bit more performance, but in that general ballpark.

- We can guess fairly well that it will be stealthy, but that it won't have groundbreakingly low RCS. After all, this is Russia's first gen stealth fighter, so something on the level of F-117 RCS sounds realistic.

- We know it will have supermanoeuvrability because it's developed by Sukhoi and all insider comments currently claim that the airframe is somewhat derivative of the T-10 family, which is probably the pinnacle of manoeuvrable airframe development.

- And we know that Russia currently has an advantage in missile technology, what with the AIM-54 Phoenix no longer in service and AIM-120D still in low-quantity production.

So, good guesses overall.

[manberries]

I dunno. I've read the article and their guesstimates about PAK-FA are fairly realistic.

- We know its engines would be a derivative of either AL-41F or 117S, with maybe a little bit more performance, but in that general ballpark.

- We can guess fairly well that it will be stealthy, but that it won't have groundbreakingly low RCS. After all, this is Russia's first gen stealth fighter, so something on the level of F-117 RCS sounds realistic.

- We know it will have supermanoeuvrability because it's developed by Sukhoi and all insider comments currently claim that the airframe is somewhat derivative of the T-10 family, which is probably the pinnacle of manoeuvrable airframe development.

- And we know that Russia currently has an advantage in missile technology, what with the AIM-54 Phoenix no longer in service and AIM-120D still in low-quantity production.

So, good guesses overall.

So your logic is Russia's stealth fighter won't be as stealthy as the US's because it "their first"? That has crap all to do with it. Nearly every part of stealth technology is public domain, with little testing to fill in the gaps. The only reason more countries don't have them is because their inability to build them. The hell if the Russians are going to put out a stealth fighter that only has the stealth capabilities of an F-117. That is directly the same old argument that because it is Russia, it is going to produce last generation technology. You also cannot say the improvements to those engines won't have a new technology in them. It is just as realistic to say the engine will have significant performance increase in 800+ kph speeds regarding fuel consumption and wear, as it is to say it will be the same old engine. You, and this article, have nothing to back up any thoughts on its performance beyond its revealed radar and assumptions regarding Russian technology. In no way is your guess better than a Rusophobe's thoughts that it will be a tin can.

The difference is I don't sit here and make claims regarding its capability or how it will be used. The idea that Russia is going to build the "cheapo" stealth fighter that only has a chance against the F-22 in massive numbers is the same old Russian technology argument we have seen time and time again.

[artjomh]

So your logic is Russia's stealth fighter won't be as stealthy as the US's because it "their first"?

No, because supposed insiders at KNAAPO have been saying that lowest possible RCS is not the goal of the project for some time. Take that with a grain of salt, of course.

[eATS]

You also cannot say the improvements to those engines won't have a new technology in them. It is just as realistic to say the engine will have significant performance increase in 800+ kph speeds regarding fuel consumption and wear, as it is to say it will be the same old engine.

since Su-35 will make the gap til PAK FA

Ufa motor-building production association will place about 100 aircraft engines for the fighters Su-35 VVS of Russia On October 9, 2009. [ITAR]- TASS. Joint stock company of " Ufa motor-building production [obedinenie]" ([UMPO]) concluded agreement from " By Komsomol'sk-na-Amur by the aviation production of [obedineniem]" ([KnAPO]) to the delivery of engines AL -41[F]-1[s] for the newest multifunctional fighters Su-35[S], it is spoken in the communication [OPK] of " [Oboronprom]" , into composition of which enters [UMPO]. These engines are intended for the installation to the aircraft Su-35[S], supplied to Russian VVS. Until 2015. [UMPO] will prepare 96 such engines, in this case the first party will be dispatched in 2010. For the first time into Russian VVS in the composition Su-35[S] will enter engines with the controlled thrust vector. Up to now the rotating jet, which ensures this characteristic, was established only on the engines, supplied for the export. AL -41[F]-1[s] is aircraft turbojet two-circuit engine with the controlled thrust vector of generation 4++. It is developed in the cooperation [UMPO] and [NPO] of " [Saturn]" to order OKB of " [Sukhogo]". At present [UMPO] approached assembling of the engines of the final layout within the framework of experimental design works. It previously communicated that in August, in the course of max -2009, the Ministry of Defense RF it signed contracts with joint stock company of " Company Of [sukhoy]" to the delivery of 48 aircraft Su-35[S], 12 Su-27[SM] even 4 Su-30[M]2. The sum total of contracts exceeds 80 billion rub. Deliveries must be realized until 2015.

original post.. in russian
from http://www.sukhoi.ru

Уфимское моторостроительное производственное объединение поставит около 100 авиадвигателей для истребителей Су-35 ВВС России

9 октября 2009 г.



ИТАР-ТАСС. ОАО "Уфимское моторостроительное производственное объединение" (УМПО) заключило договор с "Комсомольским-на-Амуре авиационным производственным объединением" (КнАПО) на поставку двигателей АЛ-41Ф-1С для новейших многофункциональных истребителей Су-35С, говорится в сообщении ОПК "Оборонпром", в состав которого входит УМПО.



Эти двигатели предназначены для установки на самолеты Су-35С, поставляемые российским ВВС. До 2015 г. УМПО изготовит 96 таких двигателей, при этом первая партия будет отгружена в 2010 г.



Впервые в российские ВВС в составе Су-35С поступят двигатели с управляемым вектором тяги. До настоящего времени поворотное реактивное сопло, которое обеспечивает эту характеристику, устанавливалось только на двигатели, поставляемые на экспорт.



АЛ-41Ф-1С представляет собой авиационный турбореактивный двухконтурный двигатель с управляемым вектором тяги поколения 4++. Он разрабатывается в кооперации УМПО и НПО "Сатурн" по заказу ОКБ "Сухого".



В настоящее время УМПО приступило к сборке двигателей окончательной компоновки в рамках опытно-конструкторских работ.



Ранее сообщалось, что в августе, в ходе МАКС-2009, Минобороны РФ подписало контракты с ОАО "Компания Сухой" на поставку 48 самолетов Су-35С, 12 Су-27СМ и 4 Су-30М2.



Общая сумма контрактов превышает 80 млрд руб. Поставки должны быть осуществлены до 2015 г.

[eATS]

this is article from someone that has seen the actual Airframe (atleast they claim to), i track every one on my website that looks at my PAK FA articles, this lets me go back to their links and forums to read their info, i do this with JXX also...

ПАК ФА <--- use that in a search, copy and paste it, if your interested in digging up new info.

use this to translate

http://babelfish.yahoo.com/translate_txt

real bad translation

on the avia - RU man laid out the description:. ([Zdrastvuyte] the users of [foruma].[Ya] I understand Flood and entire such, [fotki] futuristic, but I hurry you to distress nothing new you not [uvidite].[Po] to the results of scavengings was selected not quite foremost diagram. Earlier it was examined with the creation T -10. But so that you would not fall into fainting when you will see 50-02, then in [krattse] I will describe that you it waits. Fuselage: Is such T -10[s], but in contrast to the first, the nose section, which is inclined on the usual of 10[S], here it does not have from below the bend, but continues flesh to [vozdukhozabonikov] and between them. Thus is formed internal it cut off for the armament and judging by the fact that I it saw in the shop it not the capacious, lying next gm R -27[Er] it will not there accurately get in. Air ducts are similar Su-27, but they have a slant they outside and so have an adjustment as on Su-27. Fodders is similar Su-27 (with the reduction to that [motogandoly] now formally they degenerated) - it is present central beam over the section similar to the rhomb. Along the sides analogous with S -37 they are present 2. more. Vertical tail assembly: It is deflected outside to 25 degrees. It is on the side similar to that stood to 1.44. The rudder of 2[kh] of [sektsionnyy].[Na] both controls is trim tabs. In the stub filters on the air duct as on T -10[s] only large in the overall sizes. Stabilizers: T, are analogous, only it is in front with the tooth. Something similar form in [mikoyanovtsev] on MiG-[OVT] Wing: Trapezoidal in the plan. From the front 3[kh] sectional nose edge. From the mechanization is an aileron and 2[kh] the multisection flap. Are provided 5 points of the suspension Chassis: Here here and the most interesting. Chassis 3 X is stand with the nose controlled wheel. On the nose of 2 wheels [gryazeotboynikom] from MiG-31. Counter is removed forward on the flight. From the fact that it saw so this of 4 headlights on it. Is present 1 [****ok] which all this [ozyaystvo] shuts in flight. Basic counters shocked openly they were stripped in MiG-31. The same bicycle. Lamp: As to T -10[s], only greater it is shifted back as on first T -10. Still it noted what: Coles (or at least hole under it) it is located from below before the nose steadfast. Aboard to the left cost 4 dopa PVD, and 2 to the right. Cone it is such so that it stands on T -10[v]. Engines as yet no therefore from behind empty [gandoly]. So that when this handsome man you will see do not fall. It on its counters sufficiently highly stands on by the earth and it putting it mildly appears strangely. They promise flight in January. So - that wait video)

original in russian from http://www.sukhoi.ru

на авиа -ру чел выложил описание ..

(Здраствуйте пользователи форума.Я понимаю- флуд и все такое, фотки футуристические, но я спешу Вас огорчить- ничего нового Вы не увидите.По результатам продувок была выбрана не самая передовая схема. Ранее ее рассматривали при создании Т-10.
А дабы Вы не упали в обморок когда увидите 50-02, то в кратце опишу что Вас ждет.
Фюзеляж:
Подобен Т-10С, но в отличии от первого, носовая часть, которая наклонена на обычном 10С, тут не имеет снизу изгиба, а продолжается плоть до воздухозабоников и между ними. Таким образом сформировывается внутренний отсек для вооружения и судя по тому что я видел в цехе- он не вместительный, лежащий рядом ГМ Р-27ЭР туда точно не влезет. Воздухозаборники подобны Су-27, но имеют скос наружу и так же имеют регулировку как на Су-27.
Корма подобна Су-27 (со скидкой на то мотогандолы теперь формально выродились)- присутствует центральная балка по сечению похожая на ромб. По бокам аналогично С-37 присутствуют еще 2.
Вертикальное оперение:
Отклонено наружу на 25 градусов. Сбоку схоже с стоявшим на 1.44. Руль направления 2х секционный.На обоих рулях есть триммеры. В основаниях килей по воздухозаборнику как на Т-10С только большие по габаритам.
Стабилизаторы:
Аналогичны Т-10С, только с зубом впереди. Что-то похожее виде у микояновцев на МиГ-29-ОВТ
Крыло:
Трапецевидное в плане. Спереди 3х секционный носок. Из механизации есть элерон и 2х секционный закрылок.
Предусмотрено 5 точек подвески
Шасси:
Вот тут и самое интересное.
Шасси 3 х стоечное с носовым управляемым колесом. На носовом 2 колеса с грязеотбойником от МиГ-31. Стойка убирается вперед по полету. Из того что видел- так это 4 фары на ней. Присутствует 1 шиток который все это ъозяйство закрывает в полете.
Основные стойки шокировали- начисто содраны у МиГ-31. Тот же самый велосипед.
Фонарь:
Как и на Т-10С, только больший и сдвигается назад как на первых Т-10.
Что еще заметил:
КОЛС (или по крайней мере дыра под него) расположено снизу перед носовой стойкой. НА борту слева стоят аж 4 доп ПВД, и 2 справа.
Конуса подобен тому что стоит на Т-10В.
Двигателей пока нет- потому сзади пустые гандолы.
Так что когда этого красавца увидите- не падайте. Он на своих стойках довольно высоко стоит на землей и мягко говоря выглядит странно.
Обещают полет в январе. Так -что ждите видео)

[metberkut]

Well, if that is true, not BS, that is highly disappointing. Seems like some frankenstein and cross between T-10 and MiG-31 (to some extent) And first flight in January? And no engines...? Sigh.

[mannelig]

Well, if that is true, not BS, that is highly disappointing. Seems like some frankenstein and cross between T-10 and MiG-31 (to some extent) And first flight in January? And no engines...? Sigh.

I think this is total BS otherwise this guy is already somewhere in FSB basement

[kalerab]

Looks like the Berkut is beeing used these days in Zhukovskyi

[metberkut]

Kalerab, do you have date on that pic? I mean, when was it taken? Any more pics from simular timeframe?

[Japidson]

Kalerab, do you have date on that pic? I mean, when was it taken? Any more pics from simular timeframe?

Found few more dated 26/11/09 on: http://photo.strizhi.info/v/airwolf/...003/?g2_page=1.

Three photos here:

[kalerab]

Kalerab, do you have date on that pic? I mean, when was it taken? Any more pics from simular timeframe?

I have nothing besides "these days" what could be considered as a date of capture. Sorry.