Sukhoi T-50 PAK FA

[Bob Sapp]

The stealth part is what makes it particularly effective. The MiG-31 cannot penetrate AD networks like the F-22 can.

Nor is it at all designed to, or will it ever in practice, making this, a moot point.

[Herman the II]

They have been claiming it in official brochures for a while now...and there are multiple test platforms that have been undergoing testing for months now...I would say the fact that the detection claims have not changed implies they are very certain on the abilities of the radar.

Sorry thats just wrong. Here is the official brochure and I don't see the claim of an attack range of 400km+ against an aerial target. Not even close. In fact the scale for the attack range ends at 250 km.
http://www.knaapo.ru/media/eng/about...buklet_eng.pdf

Additionally none of the two testbeds that are still fly worthy carry that particular radar or even all the avionics and electronics planed for the future Su-35. Even the claims in the brochure are only claims and not backed by real world test with a Su35 or even live firings..

[X47Nemesis]

Yeah, I think it is funny that the Ruskies are hyping up the PAK-FA and what it can do. At the same time, the US is going in the opposite direction, and headed toward UCAV's. X-47 and her likes are far superior to ANY manned fighter, including F-22/35. I guaren-damn-tee the U.S. won't make more then a 1,000 F-35's, before switching over to fighter-sized UCAV's. Mark my word.

[LS1 Miata]

Nor is it at all designed to, or will it ever in practice, making this, a moot point.

Which, in turn, makes it's mini-AWACS capability in the context of this discussion a moot point.

[sepheronx]

Sorry thats just wrong. Here is the official brochure and I don't see the claim of an attack range of 400km+ against an aerial target. Not even close.
http://www.knaapo.ru/media/eng/about...buklet_eng.pdf

Additionally none of the two testbeds that are still fly worthy carry that particular radar or even all the avionics and electronics planed for the future Su-35. Even the claims in the brochure are only claims and not backed by real world test with a Su35 or even live firings..

Is that so? Then what where those SU-35BM's then? Paper airplanes?

Moar Irbis.

Then what is this video about?

Which, in turn, makes it's mini-AWACS capability in the context of this discussion a moot point.

I thought AWACS was a form of early detection warning of other aircrafts? In other words, using multiple channels of different bands of radar in order to get large coverage? Mig-31 is an interceptor. Makes a lot of sense to have it on an interceptor.

[Herman the II]

Is that so? Then what where those SU-35BM's then? Paper airplanes?

The two that still fly are early prototypes that don't represent the planed serial standard in a lot of ways.(Such as electronics avionics radar etc.)
The are scheduled to clear the flight envelope and such.

[Hazard1024]

Its ridiculously high.... Not even Sukhoi marketing would claim such a thing...

An AWACs is a gigantic plane with no rcs reduction measures what so ever, we are looking at 50m^2 rcs easily. AWACs flies at a high altitude so horizon is not an issue. For a system like Irbis it sounds quite plausible to have such a detection range. Do the math...

APG-77 peak power is 12kw and itš max range is about 330km, Irbis peak power is 20kw.

[Bob Sapp]

Additionally none of the two testbeds that are still fly worthy carry that particular radar or even all the avionics and electronics planed for the future Su-35. Even the claims in the brochure are only claims and not backed by real world test with a Su35 or even live firings..

And you know any of this.....how?


You are right, Su did not make such a claim, my mistake, it was NIIP who talked about a 400km detection of a 3m2 air target.

[sepheronx]

The two that still fly are early prototypes that don't represent the planed serial standard in a lot of ways.(Such as electronics avionics radar etc.)
The are scheduled to clear the flight envelope and such.

No? I would like to read more about it. If you would be so kind as to provide any info about this, I would be thankful.

[Herman the II]

And you know any of this.....how?

Know what? That the first two prototypes don't even carry the Ibris-E radar and don't represent serial stand art?
That has been said quite a lot of times...

You are right, Su did not make such a claim, my mistake, it was NIIP who talked about a 400km detection of a 3m2 air target.

Detecting something is completely different to tracking something and then shot it down. No Russian official will claim that their planes can track and shot down enemy air crafts over 400km. Its just ridiculous...

[sepheronx]

Know what? That the first two prototypes don't even carry the Ibris-E radar and don't represent serial stand art?
That has been said quite a lot of times...



Detecting something is completely different to tracking something and then shot it down. No Russian official will claim that their planes can track and shot down enemy air crafts over 400km. Its just ridiculous...

No, because I don't believe either side has an Air to air weapon that has such the range. Not yet at least.

Edit: as for the comment about SU-35BM. What are the systems used on the prototypes? SU-27SKM avionics? Is it something else?

[Bob Sapp]

I would like to see some proof that they first 2 do not carry Irbis, sounds like nonsense since the radar has been uncovered and demonstrated. Doesn't represent exact serial configuration? ok, fine, makes sense, doesn't change much though.

Yes you are right about shooting down at 400km....and as you said, Russian officials did not claim so. 400km detection however seems to be a possiblity in some scenarios, and as such is very impressive.

[Hazard1024]

Sorry thats just wrong. Here is the official brochure and I don't see the claim of an attack range of 400km+ against an aerial target. Not even close. In fact the scale for the attack range ends at 250 km.
http://www.knaapo.ru/media/eng/about...buklet_eng.pdf

Additionally none of the two testbeds that are still fly worthy carry that particular radar or even all the avionics and electronics planed for the future Su-35. Even the claims in the brochure are only claims and not backed by real world test with a Su35 or even live firings..

That .pdf states exactly 400km for a 50m^2 target. It makes no claims at all regarding engagement ranges. They are simply not mentioned at all. That catalogue is not very specific... The long range missiles exist for a reason - R-37 is an existing missile with 300Km range and KS-172 is a perspective missile with claimed 400km range.

Going by pure math a radar that can detect a 0.01m^2 target at 90km does the same for a 50m^2 target at 756km... Obviously that would be too much, but 400km sounds quite plausible.

[Herman the II]

No, because I don't believe either side has an Air to air weapon that has such the range. Not yet at least.

Edit: as for the comment about SU-35BM. What are the systems used on the prototypes? SU-27SKM avionics? Is it something else?

So we agree about the attack range.
In regards to the system used on the Su35 prototypes its hard to find specifics due to obvious reasons. However it was said that the third prototype was closer to the serial standard than the first two are.

The third flying article of the experimental batch of this airplane is now undergoing ground tests.

This airplane's systems are being debugged by the association's flight test station specialists together with Sukhoy Experimental Design Bureau representatives. It differs significantly from the two previous articles: many design changes have been introduced and unique capabilities for control of parameters have been included.

03.04.09, Vostok-Media

However it never was a secret that the first two are planed for basic flight tests and later prototypes are scheduled for more complex tasks like clearing radar, ecm etc.

That .pdf states exactly 400km for a 50m^2 target. It makes no claims at all regarding engagement ranges. They are simply not mentioned at all. That catalogue is not very specific... The long range missiles exist for a reason - R-37 is an existing missile with 300Km range and KS-172 is a perspective missile with claimed 400km range.

Going by pure math a radar that can detect a 0.01m^2 target at 90km does the same for a 50m^2 target at 756km... Obviously that would be too much, but 400km sounds quite plausible.

Read the document again. There is a specific graphic dubbed "attack ranges".

[sepheronx]

So the first batches where to test out the basics like airframe, engines and fly by wire, etc? Are they going to put in the avionics and all the other gadgets to the earlier models? Or are they just going to test it with the new prototype?